What is the heaviest bullet that you shoot out of your 1911 45 ACP and your Glock 21?

[huntersdog]

I'm looking for a Woods load and also a deer hunting load for both the full-size 1911 45 ACP and full size Glock 21 45 ACP gun what bullet and powder would you recommend?

I do have some new 45 super brass available to that I could load up.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I would just use a 230 gr. Hornady XTP and load data out of a manual.

[35remington]

There is little a heavier bullet will do that a 230 grain cannot equal in this cartridge.

[onelight]

There is little a heavier bullet will do that a 230 grain cannot equal in this cartridge.
Yup , if you go heavier and try to maintain or increase velocity it sure can beat your gun to death.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

225-230 gr. is what I've always used. I like 5.5 gr. of Unique for carry, 5.0 gr. for practice.

DG

[475AR]

There is so much that goes into a question like this, like, are you looking for expansion or penetration? I currently am running 250gr cast and jacketed in my G21 that is setup to handle them at about 850-900 fps (heavier recoil spring and steel guide rod.) It also will depend on bullet make up and shape. For example a TC shape bullet penetration is better then a RN. And depending on the meplat diameter will cause more damage. A hard cast bullet will have more penetration then a pure lead bullet of same design (because the pure lead bullet will tend to expand depending on velocity. ) one thing to watch out for is if you want to use a JHP bullet choose wisely since most 45acp JHP bullets are meant to expand rapidly, which could be good and bad depending on what critter you have to shoot.

[RJM52]

Set up a Kimber 1911 for .45 Super a few years ago...heavier mainspring, heavier firing pin return spring, heavier recoil spring and a square bottom firing pin stop.

Using .45 Super brass from Starline 1050+ fps with 250 grain bullets and 1100+ fps with 230s can easily be made with Longshot powder...

1911s have been running 10mm for decades with no problem and it is a much hotter round...but the gun has to be properly set up to do it...

Bob

[Mk42gunner]

230 in .45 ACP, (I usually run the ~200 gr 452460), if I think I need more bullet weight; I need a bigger gun.

Robert

[boommer]

255 RNFN W/W LEAD will drop any deer at 50 yds, so long you hit them right w231 unique bullseye and so on 22 #recoil spring in 1911
stock spring will 18# will work fine, but up the spring if a steady diet 255 grs go to 22# LOAD data little hard to find but maybe not now days. SOFT POINT RNFP J word WILL work at 1000 fps or so

[Catshooter]

The Keith 255. But for general use anything from 200 grains up to that is fine in my book.


Cat

[kingrj]

I hunt with the Lee RFN 255 grain bullet..cast from WW with a little extra tin...You can load this bullet up to slightly over 1000 fps in a 5" auto using either PowerPistol or Long Shot...No problems at all in my 4506...

[Bigslug]

No reason at all to hot rod:

280175

230 grain LBT LFN cast of a hard, non-deforming alloy. Bullet on the right was recovered from the ninth gallon milk jug in the stack, and it was fired at a bog-standard GI hardball speed of about 830 FPS. While it wouldn't be my first choice for a heavy-timber elk cartridge, I'd have fair confidence in it if I were hungry enough. Remember, cavalrymen helped design the .45 ACP, and they had a secondary requirement of ability to kill HORSES.

There is also the similar profile 234 grain Ranch Dog that I helped launch with a group-buy from NOE. This can be ordered as a hollowpoint version with three sets of nose pins that give you the option of solid, deep hollowpoint, or shallow "cup" point. The cup points would expand more conservatively and penetrate deeper. Might be a good option for a deer load.

280176

[M-Tecs]

The rumor on the 45 Colt that is needed to kill horses. I have never seen or hear of actually data to support the claim.

https://sightm1911.com/lib/history/45_Auto_Cartridge_History.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP
Design and history

Cross-sectional diagram of U.S. Army 45 ACP "ball cartridge" for Model 1911 pistol, with dimensions in inches.
During the late 19th century and early 20th century, the U.S. Cavalry began trials to replace their sidearm arsenal of issued 45 Colt Single Action Army (SAA) in favor of the more modern and versatile double-action revolver in 45 Colt.

After the example of the Cavalry, the Army in turn had fielded versions of double-action revolvers in .38 Long Colt. It was eventually evaluated that the .38-caliber round was significantly less effective in overall stopping-power than the 45 Colt against determined opponents in cases such as the Moro juramentado warriors, who were encountered in the Moro Rebellion.[3][4][5][6] The then-current issue rifle, the .30-40 Krag, had also failed to stop Moro warriors effectively;[7] the British had similar lack-of-stopping-power issues switching to the .303 British, which resulted in the development of the dum-dum bullet in an attempt to compensate for the round's deficiencies. This experience, and the Thompson–LaGarde Tests of 1904, led the Army and the Cavalry to decide a minimum of 45 caliber was required in a new handgun. Thompson and Major Louis Anatole La Garde of the Medical Corps arranged tests on cadavers and animal remains in the Chicago stockyards, resulting in the finding that 45 was the most effective pistol cartridge. They noted, however, training was critical to make sure a soldier could score a hit in a vulnerable part of the body.

Colt had been working with Browning on a .41 caliber cartridge in 1904, and in 1905, when the Cavalry asked for a 45 caliber equivalent, Colt modified the pistol design to fire an enlarged version of the prototype .41 round. The result from Colt was the Model 1905 and the new 45 ACP cartridge. The original round that passed the testing fired a 200 grain (13 g) bullet at 900 ft/s (275 m/s), but after a number of rounds of revisions between Winchester Repeating Arms, Frankford Arsenal, and Union Metallic Cartridge, it ended up using a 230 grain (14.9 g) bullet fired at a nominal velocity of 850 ft/s (260 m/s). The resulting 45-caliber cartridge, named the 45 ACP, was similar in performance to the 45 Schofield cartridge, is only slightly less powerful and significantly shorter than the 45 Colt cartridge that the United States Cavalry was using at the time.

By 1906, bids from six makers were submitted, among them Browning's design, submitted by Colt. Only DWM, Savage, and Colt made the first cut. DWM, which submitted two Parabellums chambered in 45 ACP, withdrew from testing after the first round of tests, for unspecified reasons.[8]

In the second round of evaluations in 1910, the Colt design passed the extensive testing with no failures, while the Savage design suffered 37 stoppages or parts failures.[8] The Colt pistol was adopted as the Model 1911.

The cartridge/pistol combination was quite successful but not satisfactory for U.S. military purposes. Over time, a series of improved designs were offered, culminating in the adoption in 1911 of the "Cal. 45 Automatic Pistol Ball Cartridge, Model of 1911", a 1.273 in (32.3 mm) long round with a bullet weight of 230 grains (15 g). The first production, at Frankford Arsenal, was marked "F A 8 11", for the August 1911 date.

The 45 Super and 460 Rowland are working very well in the 1911 Platform as is the 10 MM Auto. When properly setup the 1911 is standing up just fine. I have a couple of 10 mm Auto long sliders and I am thinking about a 460 Rowland. I am not nearly as worried about the gun standing up as my hand. Near 44 Mag performance out of a 1911 platform has significant recoil.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?421966-What-is-the-heaviest-bullet-that-you-shoot-out-of-your-1911-45-ACP-and-your-Glock-21

[kingrj]

"The 45 Super and 460 Rowland are working very well in the 1911 Platform as is the 10 MM Auto. When properly setup the 1911 is standing up just fine. I have a couple of 10 mm Auto long sliders and I am thinking about a 460 Rowland. I am not nearly as worried about the gun standing up as my hand. Near 44 Mag performance out of a 1911 platform has significant recoil."

I am in full agreement that "most" full sized .45 autos can function quite well with .45 Super with little or no modification but in my opinion the 460 Rowland is another thing indeed. I have done the momentum calculations to determine the final slide velocity and energy when it hits the rear stop and comparing a normal .45 acp to a .45 Super loaded to 1000 fps with a 255 grain bullet produces almost 35% more end stop velocity. There is a mistaken belief that a heavier recoil spring is all that is required to compensate but if you do the math you see that the recoil spring has very little impact on slide velocity and that barrel/slide mass have the biggest impact. That being said there is no doubt that my 4506 is being "battered" more with Super loads than standard acp loads but is it enough to create damage? So far not at all and it may never cause a problem but by moving up to a Rowland load such as a 255 grain bullet at say..1200 fps you are more than doubling the slide energy at the stop and that is pretty significant. That is why most Rowland conversions use a large heavy muzzle brake to both add mass to the barrel/slide unit AND provide reverse muzzle thrust to counter the recoil. While it is unlikely that a Roland load would blow up a full sized .45 auto, without through testing I personally would NOT shoot one without the muzzle brake. So how much is too much? Only lots of testing and shooting will tell but with the current full sized .45 auto tilt barrel platforms in mind...I would think (beware that my thinking is of questionable value) that 10mm and "normal" .45 super loads which have almost identical momentum effects are the practical limit.

Another important point is that to be safe the barrel/slide unit must NOT unlock before the bullet exits the barrel..It IS possible (but maybe unlikely) that with a hot enough load with a heavy bullet will allow the barrel to unlock before the bullets exits...this is not a good thing to happen..be careful and do your math....

[Drm50]

I use the 250gr original style RnFp in my 83/8” m25 that I use on deer. Very accurate bullet shot
at 850fps. I’m not standardized on 45acp yet. I haven’t killed a deer with 45acp revolver. I’ve only got one with a 1911 and it was with 230gr FMJ. I was experimenting with different wt. bullets for 45acp, the only thing I know for sure is that I’m staying in 230gr range, no heavier.

[35remington]

The barrel can’t unlock before the bullet leaves assuming the bullet approximates any standard weight. The movement the slide has before the bullet leaves is the ratio of bullet weight to slide weight. A faster bullet does not change this. For this to occur the bullet must be of such weight to be essentially impractical and a 300+ grain bullet really is not that thing.

Slide unlocking occurs only after it has moved a given distance. A faster bullet gets out faster to balance the faster moving rearward slide. Slide unlocking is a function of slide distance traveled, not time. A faster bullet of reasonable weight will not cause the gun to unlock “too early.”

I would be happy to explain as 1911 function is often not fully understood.

Beating the slide lug abutments to death due to increased pressure, causing cracks in the breechface junction with the slide and increased frame and slide damage due to increased velocity and pressure are a very real possibility. The gun was designed for around 19K psi, not near double that. Everyone worries about slide velocity while often failing to mention the other deleterious effects of too much cartridge on the gun. Lots of other areas are subject to increased wear.

[kingrj]

Well not trying to nit-pick...the physics is all about conservation of momentum and it is not just the slide vs bullet but the slide AND barrel that is accelerated to the rear until the slide unlocks from the barrel. I do agree that it is almost impossible for normal weight bullets to cause premature unlocking before the bullet leaves the barrel but this is one of the criteria that has to be considered when designing the gun...My reference to "time" is the time it takes for the slide/barrel unit to reach the unlock point and the time the bullet spends in the barrel MUST be LESS than the unlock time...You are perfectly correct in mentioning the additional stresses associated with the locking lugs on the barrel and the slide recesses...No doubt it will have an effect.

[35remington]

Yep, quite correct, the barrel is part of the ratio of moving mass to oppose bullet weight. In a standard 5 inch 1911 the barrel/slide is about 32 times the weight of a 230 grain bullet.

The point remains that with any reasonably possible bullet weight the gun cannot unlock “too early” no matter how fast it goes. This was all well considered and not something to worry about.

The more plausible things are the damage that increased pressure and slide velocity causes, and that is enough.

[M-Tecs]

There is a vast difference between unsafe and increase wear or reduced service life. Using the 1911 platform as a basis (even when firing) well below SAAMI pressures it still has a limited service life. Increasing pressure and velocity decreases service life. That is the norm across all firearm platforms. Most if not all shooters understand that increased performance comes at a cost.

In a 22 RF competition rifle I expect at least 30,000 rounds before I see a decrease in accuracy. In a .223 unless I am pushing 75 grain to 90 grain bullets I expect 5,000 or 6,000 rounds before I see a decrease in accuracy. In a 220 Swift if expect 2,000 to 2,500 before I see a decrease in accuracy. This is well known and understood.

Why would the 45ACP to 45 Super to 460 Rowland be any different? As the power level goes up the intended usage narrows as does the round count.

The best parallel is S&W K and N frame guns. They were both designed for relatively anemic cartridges. The N frame was designed for the 44 Special and the K was designed for the 38 S&W. Both have been utilized for magnum usage. Neither one of them will withstand extended full house magnum usage without shooting loose.

Personally I don't see that as a problem with heavier bullets or higher pressure loads if properly setup but apparently some do. Reality is I am much more likely to wear out my 1911 45 ACP competition guns since they they get shoot a lot more.

I am leaning towards an FN FNX 45 for the 460 Rowland conversion. I would be surprised if that gun would ever see a total of 500 rounds of full house 460 Rowland. It's intended usage would be hunting or bear defense and even if I was 40 years younger I don't see shooting it loose in a lifetime but it would fulfil a roll the 45 ACP could not.

The same applies to heavier than standard bullet in the 45 ACP.

[kingrj]

M-Tecs you are quite correct....I only fire my Super maybe 20 times a year since it is my primary white tail deer gun...At that rate it will last my lifetime in the least! Please keep us informed about your FN FNX conversion...it sounds like a great project and please share your design with us as you go. Having near .44 mag power in a slim packable package is something many want to have...

[M-Tecs]

M-Tecs you are quite correct....I only fire my Super maybe 20 times a year since it is my primary white tail deer gun...At that rate it will last my lifetime in the least! Please keep us informed about your FN FNX conversion...it sounds like a great project and please share your design with us as you go. Having near .44 mag power in a slim packable package is something many want to have...

Will do. When I first started researching this I was planning on the 1911 Platform.

I do have a spare long slide and double stack frame I was planning on using, wherever, per Rowland the double stack 1911's aren't working that well. Just a guess but since they recommend heavier mag springs on everything my guess that the double stack mags aren't feeding the round fast enough. With a square firing pin stop, heavier main spring and the extra weight of the long slide and red dot it may slow the slide down enough but I don't want to be the guinea pig.

The holdup will be getting the FN FNX. I work part-time at a medium sized gun shop since I retired. We have two gun buyers and they are letting our distributors know that it's on our priority list. As to the design I will just send the barrel and slide to Rowland and they will do the chamber than upgrade the mag springs that's it. https://www.460rowland.com/shop/460-rowland-conversions/fnx-45-conversion/

That's a tough one for me since I normally do all my own work but while I am not the brightest bulb on the tree I am bright enough to not try to re-invent the wheel. They have done the testing I have not.

[onelight]

The HK usp 45 acp according to some is rated for the super right out of the box.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Super I have never shot any from mine but some do.

[Grapeshot]

I have used a .452 Lee .45 LRNFP in my 1911A1. I don't remember the load, but the powder was Unique. They shot well, a bit heavy in the recoil department. I relagated them to my 1917 S&W.

[HCH]

Heaviest? 260 WFN.

[tazman]

For me, the heaviest is 230 grains. That big boolit will do anything I need done with a 45ACP.
I mostly shoot 200 grain boolits in them.

[Groo]

No reason at all to hot rod:

280175

230 grain LBT LFN cast of a hard, non-deforming alloy. Bullet on the right was recovered from the ninth gallon milk jug in the stack, and it was fired at a bog-standard GI hardball speed of about 830 FPS. While it wouldn't be my first choice for a heavy-timber elk cartridge, I'd have fair confidence in it if I were hungry enough. Remember, cavalrymen helped design the .45 ACP, and they had a secondary requirement of ability to kill HORSES.

There is also the similar profile 234 grain Ranch Dog that I helped launch with a group-buy from NOE. This can be ordered as a hollowpoint version with three sets of nose pins that give you the option of solid, deep hollowpoint, or shallow "cup" point. The cup points would expand more conservatively and penetrate deeper. Might be a good option for a deer load.

280176
Groo here
In point of fact the 45acp replaced the 45 revolver round for cav and when faced with a cav charge, the biggest target is the horse.
Look up the Thompson LeGrand test,and you will see that most of the testing was cattle and horses..
They are called "horse pistols "for a reason....

[Bigslug]

Groo here
In point of fact the 45acp replaced the 45 revolver round for cav and when faced with a cav charge, the biggest target is the horse.
Look up the Thompson LeGrand test,and you will see that most of the testing was cattle and horses..
They are called "horse pistols "for a reason....

Yep. And the Navy ran .36's (9mm) because there aren't a lot of horses on boats, unless maybe you meet Lyle Lovett: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpM8FjO4Vko :mrgreen:

[M-Tecs]

The term horse pistol was generally used for the large muzzleloading pistols that were carried on the saddle pummel. That carried over to the early large Colt revolvers.

The 45 ACP and the 1911 replaced the Colt New Army M1892 in.38 Long Colt. Due to it's poor performance in the Philippines against the Moro Warriors the Colt New Service M1909 in 45 Colt was adopted.

https://www.guns.com/news/2018/10/30/the-colt-1851-navy-revolver-one-of-the-first-significant-carry-guns

https://americanhandgunner.com/handguns/colts-cap-ball-revolvers/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_1851_Navy_Revolver

The cylinder of this revolver is engraved with a scene of the victory of the Second Texas Navy at the Battle of Campeche on May 16, 1843. The Texas Navy had purchased the earlier Colt Paterson Revolver, but this was Colt's first major success in the gun trade; the naval theme of the engraved cylinder of the Colt 1851 Navy revolver was Colt's gesture of appreciation. The engraving was provided by Waterman Ormsby.[6] Despite the "Navy" designation, the revolver was chiefly purchased by civilians and military land forces.

https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/pistols/colt-new-service-1909-the-last-of-the-great-revolvers/

https://www.guns.com/news/2012/07/17/lthompson-lagarde-test-45-colt-1911

[johniv]

The HK usp 45 acp according to some is rated for the super right out of the box.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Super I have never shot any from mine but some do.
Don’t know where they got that info, I don’t know of an H&k made in .45 super. During its development, I understand the originator of the super fired some quantity of super thru a USP, with no damage. During my tenure with the company, we always told customers that the USP was chambered and designed for the .45 ACP, and the use of the super was NOT recommended, and would void the warranty.

[onelight]

Don’t know where they got that info, I don’t know of an H&k made in .45 super. During its development, I understand the originator of the super fired some quantity of super thru a USP, with no damage. During my tenure with the company, we always told customers that the USP was chambered and designed for the .45 ACP, and the use of the super was NOT recommended, and would void the warranty.
I certainly would not disagree with you on that and I don't see wiki as an authority on anything in particular.
I saw the wiki after looking at the HK forum and reading a discussion on the USP and the super and reading a number of posts about shooting 45 super in the USP but that certainly does not mean it's a good idea.
But like you point out one guy that does conversions on other guns for super says they work (this is all hearsay to me ) if I wanted to shoot supers in a USP I would do more research . I don't :)

[Good Cheer]

Hunting deer with a 1911?
I'd use a 230 or so WFNHP, cast real soft and gas checked.
Big enough hollow point to open up and heavy enough to be hard to stop it.
And if for some strange reason it didn't open up, well, it's still a WFN.

[Laguna Freak]

I shoot 230 HP’s and FMJ’s in both my Baer Custom and my Para Tac4 double stack. Fyi; years ago I upgraded the mag and slide springs in my Para and polished the feed ramp. It has functioned flawlessly ever since. The LDA trigger is sweet.