Highest practical Bullet weights/loadings for .38 Special?

[VariableRecall]

I'm very much satisfied with a 158 grain SWC, but just out of curiosity, what would be the outcome of using the heaviest practical bullet weight possible that would still fit SAAMI specs for the cartridge?

I understand that 200gns is the generally advertised maximum bullet weight, have any of you had much success with that weight? Since there's more mass going downrange, there would be a good bit more recoil I suppose.

[smkummer]

I have had good luck with Lyman’s 195 grain and 2400 powder using Lyman 45th data. It’s a thumper out of my 6” medium frame colts. The accuracy was great out of my 1894 Marlin with micro groove as well. My main use (but seldom) use is for metal plates as it’s ring on the AR500 plates is louder than the 158 bullets.

[Tatume]

The 38 S&W was commonly loaded with a 200 gr bullet, and the 38 Special can be too. However, I've not found any good reason to do so.

[Petrol & Powder]

Define - "Practical".


There is an inescapable relationship between the weight of the projectile, the maximum safe pressure and the velocity of the projectile.

Because the diameter of the projectile cannot vary, the only way to change the weight of the projectile is to change the length of the projectile. A heavier bullet will be longer than a shorter bullet. (assuming we're talking about the same material)

On the short end, a sphere of the correct diameter is the physical limit. On the long end, the bullet needs to fit in the cylinder.
However, as the projectile gets heavier, the velocity gets lower. (remember, we are constrained by the pressure limits). There's also the question of twist rate for the rifling but we'll ignore that for the moment.

So the Practical limit can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.

As bullets get heavier (and therefore, slower) the trajectory will take on a greater arc.
With all other factors equal, the recoil forces will also increase with weight.
And the dwell time (the time the bullet is in the barrel) will increase significantly with heavier bullets; so fixed sights will have limitations.

While bullets as heavy as 200 grains have been used in 38 Special, I'm with Tatume, I see VERY little benefit in going that heavy.

While a .357 magnum can utilize the 35K psi pressure limit to launch a 170-175 grain projectile fast enough to be useful, a 38 Special +P only has 20K psi to work with. I see absolutely NO benefits to go above about 160 grains in 38 Special.

For every cartridge someone has already done the math and real world testing to find the optimal compromise between weight and velocity. There is nothing new under the sun.

[jaguarxk120]

With the 200 grain Lyman round nose bullet it is not how fast the bullet goes. But rather traveling at
moderate speed, 700fps. That long heavy bullet is unstable and as soon as it hits something
it will start to tumble, this bullet doesn't have to expand to do it's work. Tumbling in ballistic
gel creates a very large hole!

[megasupermagnum]

There is load data for the 215 grain 358627. Its practical application was bowling pin shooting.

[VariableRecall]

There is load data for the 215 grain 358627. Its practical application was bowling pin shooting.

I've got a feeling that 200gn is just about the practical maximum, and with that only specialized purposes for using a bullet weight that high at .38 Special's pressure limitations.

[Electrod47]

With the 200 grain Lyman round nose bullet it is not how fast the bullet goes. But rather traveling at
moderate speed, 700fps. That long heavy bullet is unstable and as soon as it hits something
it will start to tumble, this bullet doesn't have to expand to do it's work. Tumbling in ballistic
gel creates a very large hole!

When Jack Ruby shot Oswald at point blank range it was with a 200gr LRN bullet from a 2" snub. You'v all seen the agony on Oswalds face from receiving the round. The heavy RN swam in an orbit inside him through his liver and one lung while clipping the bottom of his heart. As mentioned the wound channel was large and probably less than 700 fps from the snub.

[onelight]

It all depends on what practical means to you .
For me with 38 special and 357 the 158 to 170 is the weight range I would pick for all around use .

[VariableRecall]

When Jack Ruby shot Oswald at point blank range it was with a 200gr LRN bullet from a 2" snub. You'v all seen the agony on Oswalds face from receiving the round. The heavy RN swam in an orbit inside him through his liver and one lung while clipping the bottom of his heart. As mentioned the wound channel was large and probably less than 700 fps from the snub.

Well, that's a gruesome fact. I'd assume that overall a 158gn SWC would be better suited for self defense as it can have a higher potential velocity at lower pressures, and still deliver plenty of mass on target. I suppose that's what makes it a popular self-defense loading, and my favorite loading so far that I've used. With a 158gn SWC and 3.8-4.1gn of Win 231, recoil is a little firmer but still easy to get sights back on target.

[onelight]

I think you are right . I think the standard weights in most pistol cartridges are a good choice for all around use.
Not that you can't find other weights you prefer for a variety of reasons . It's nice to have all the choices.

[VariableRecall]

I think you are right . I think the standard weights in most pistol cartridges are a good choice for all around use.
Not that you can't find other weights you prefer for a variety of reasons . It's nice to have all the choices.

One pretty significant advantage of .38 Special is that you can shove just about any variety of projectile in its spacious case capacity so long as it's sized properly. Can't really say that for 9mm I suppose.

[bangerjim]

I cast every available weight up to 200gn for all my 38 cal loadings. Rarely ever use the 200, but love the 158-ish weights (in HP and solid versions). The heavier boolit seems to loose accuracy at distances the lighter ones are perfect for.

[alfadan]

I guess it can be fun playing with heavy bullets going slow; there does seem to be an obsession lately with it though.

[gwpercle]

Elmer Keith seemed to think the 170 grain weight was a good compromise on weight and I think he may be right . 200 grs. in a 38 special gives up some much needed velocity .
I picked up a Lyman #358429 170 gr. SWC and worked with it extensively ... in my revolvers it wasn't as accurate as I thought it was going to be ... #358431 160 gr. SWC proved to be more accurate and then #358432 a 160 gr. Wadcutter boolit proved to be the best of them all ...
I didn't see that one coming ...and I was an Elmer Keith student & disciple from loading day one!
Gary

[Outpost75]

Most fixed sight .38 Special service guns targeted for 158-grain LRN will strike about 6 inches high at 25 yards with 200 grain ammo at 700 fps loaded with 3.2 grains of Bullseye to approximate factory ammo.

The Lend - Lease Victory .38 S&Ws made for the Brits will shoot to their fixed sights at 25 yards firing handloads with a 178-200 grain bullet at 630 fps using 2.5 grains of Bullseye or 3 grains of Unique, whereas US factory 146-grain .38 S&W ammunition at 680 fps will strike about 6 inches low.

[uscra112]

During WW2 the Brits deliberately chose to load their .38 S&W chambered Webley/Enfields with a 200 grain bullet at about 650 fps. As far as they were concerned, it had greater stopping power than lighter bullets, so they said.
---------------------------
LOL! I see that Outpost beat me to it.

[Petrol & Powder]

While the Brits certainly had a love affair with the 38/200 or 38 S&W (not to be confused with a 38 Special) loaded with a 200 gr bullet, I'm not sure that's a great endorsement.
The Brits were filling a need for a standard 38 S&W cartridge, not duplicating the ballistics of a 38 Special with a 200 grain bullet.
No disrespect towards the Brits, but by WWII they needed a common cartridge and some backward compatibility. Their logistics demanded some of that equation.
Just because the Brits adopted something doesn't mean it was ideal, it was just good for their needs.

A 200 gr bullet in a 38 Special is going to trade velocity for mass. Is it a good trade? The jury is out on that. For some, the extra mass is worth the loss of velocity. For me, 200 grains in a 38 Special has ZERO appeal.
I don't live at the alter of velocity but there comes a point where you are getting too slow and the benefits of that extra mass are just not worth it.

[uscra112]

If the British wanted backward compatibility, why did they drop the .455 Webley?

Personally I'm not in favor of the 200 grain load in a revolver either, simply because it won't shoot to the sights. I do load the 38/200 with a 196 grain NOE bullet because it does shoot to the sights. As best I can do, anyway. The heavy DA trigger pull of my spurless "tanker" Enfield/Webley isn't conducive to much accuracy.

[Petrol & Powder]

They didn't DROP the .455, they added the Enfield in 38 S&W and then acquired more Model 10's chambered in 38 S&W.

The backwards compatibility I speak to was for the Enfield's in 38 S&W.

[Mk42gunner]

I think the 158-160 grain range is best for typical range .38 Special loads. It is more likely to shoot to the sights of a fixed sighted revolver than any other.

Since the 358429 was brought up, I have an article or book around here that Elmer Keith authored, in which he stated that the 358429 was too heavy for all around use in the .38 Special; therefore he recommended either the 358439 HP or the HB version, which typically weigh 160 grains.

There is also a lot to be said for the 148 WC.

Robert

[pettypace]

The 200 grain .38 Special Super Police load would do 623 ft/s from a 2" barrel. If that bullet doesn't yaw it should penetrate over 30" of 10% gelatin and crush about 16 grams of tissue (using MacPherson's "WTI" calculation).

Keith wrote about testing S&W snubbys with high-speed .38 ammo. I assume he was shooting 38/44 loads -- 158 grains at, maybe, 950 ft/s. Without expanding or yawing, MacPherson again predicts over 30" of penetration and 16 grams of wound mass.

Testing Federal Gold Medal wadcutters from a snubby, Brassfetcher got 650 ft/s with the bullet expanding slightly to 0.39 inches. MacPherson predicts 16" of penetration and about 27 grams of wound mass.

The wadcutter's 16" of penetration is "ideal" and its 27 grams of wound mass is all you can get out of a .38 that doesn't expand, tumble, or separate into two projectiles.

Hard barriers, long ranges,or big, dangerous, 4-legged critters probably favor Keith's recommendations.

[Win94ae]

The 38 S&W was commonly loaded with a 200 gr bullet, and the 38 Special can be too. However, I've not found any good reason to do so.

The British liked the 200gr bullets in their version of the 38 S&W[38/200], we liked shorter bullets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_S&W
If I shoot a 158gr bullet in my US Revolver Co. 38 S&W, they will keyhole even at short range, but the 105gr bullets do just fine.

Twist rate is going to be a factor.

[ddixie884]

When Jack Ruby shot Oswald at point blank range it was with a 200gr LRN bullet from a 2" snub. You'v all seen the agony on Oswalds face from receiving the round. The heavy RN swam in an orbit inside him through his liver and one lung while clipping the bottom of his heart. As mentioned the wound channel was large and probably less than 700 fps from the snub.

I didn't know it was a 200gr he shot him with. I find this very interesting.........

[ddixie884]

Elmer Keith seemed to think the 170 grain weight was a good compromise on weight and I think he may be right . 200 grs. in a 38 special gives up some much needed velocity .
I picked up a Lyman #358429 170 gr. SWC and worked with it extensively ... in my revolvers it wasn't as accurate as I thought it was going to be ... #358431 160 gr. SWC proved to be more accurate and then #358432 a 160 gr. Wadcutter boolit proved to be the best of them all ...
I didn't see that one coming ...and I was an Elmer Keith student & disciple from loading day one!
Gary

I may be wrong but I think the Keith bullet must be pushed to perform. Keith's K-frame load was 5gr Unique. He really designed it for use in the HD and Outdoorsman. Older sixgunners said his Heavy load in .38spl gave better accuracy in .357 Mag revolvers than .357 cases. I don't load any target loads in .38spl. It doesn't cost much more and I load on a single stage Press. I like a K-frame load to come close to 1,000fps.

[Alferd Packer]

The 200 grain lead bullet load was called the E St Louis Police Load because back in the day late 1930s I think the Police would shoot low and aim at a fleeing suspect and shoot them in the butt.
The heavy bullet would usually break the pelvis which brought the person down as they could no longer run with a broken hip.
It apparently worked so well that the Chicago Police used it extensively on anyone they weren't trying to kill , but merely stop from fleeing.
The Police in that time competed in pistol competition and it was widely known that you didn't shoot it out with the police nor did you run away when he yelled halt.
Usually a warning shot fired in the air was enough to stop someone because the next one would be in you.
The 200 grain .38 special load was called a Police Load and was printed on the box it came in.
It was used all the way till the late 1950s and early 1960s.
Police no longer fired a warning shot and had been changing to the four inch revolvers and lighter framed guns.
Only Motorcycle Patrolmen and most cops that walked a beat carried a six inch revolver. Detectives carried snub nose like Joe Friday.
The 200 grain bullet was still around, but only the old timers seemed to know what it was for.
Besides, the .357 had been around since 1935 and was considered as too powerful a gun for most Police Departments to use by the civilian review boards and lawyers.
This info is on the internet and is written about in Police history books and has also been glossed over in places in rewritten history books.
The Oldtome Police had to be tougher than the oldtime crooks who were as bad as you can get.
Today, 5Foot 4 inch Policewomen ride around in Police cars by themselves where one Policemen had to be at least 5 foot 10 inches tall and the bigger the better. They used to be able to afford two policemen in a patrol car and when there was unruly drunks to be dealt with, they called the biggest cops that were on duty if possible.
Because size commands respect and still they had a hard time subduing drug addicts, and drunks anyway.
The 200 grain bullet was used during a time when law and order was more important than politicians and criminals rights.
If I was going out after dark with friends my Dad always admonished me with the saying " Nobody out there after dark son but cops and drunks and you ain't a cop."
But he was an oltimer.What did he know?
I sure miss him.My Dad.

[Alferd Packer]

I would like to add that I have read bags and bags of stuff written about what the 200 grain Super Police load will not do.
It will not penetrate auto bodies, sometimes even auto glass, it will not penetrate walls or doors, plus it drops rather quickly due to its low velocity and on and on.
It was a specialized Police load and the men who used it knew what it was for.
It was shot at a fleeing person to break bones and bring the person down.
The Police were accomplished pistoleros and knew where to aim for the rainbow trajectory and they mainly hit where they aimed and what they were aiming at.
The British government had people aware of the bone breaking power of the 200 grain bullet in this caliber and adopted it for their armed forces pistol.
The Germans also knew about this and objected to the use of this bullet and knew it would not work in the metal covered version as it was intended in the all lead bullet.
The Germans objected using the Geneva Convention to stop the British use of the 200 grain lead bullet in .38 caliber.
This bullet does what no other bullet does so simply and so well, but it does so in the hands of skilled marksman who do not " spray and pray" as seems to be common practice.
Shooting to wound or disable is known as cruel and unusual punishment, but shooting to kill is final and is usually the result of a lucky hit or not actually what is considered bad judgement of the police officer who will be punished or at least reprimanded.
The laymen and even the Police talk of stopping power of a pistol bullet.
Pistol bullets are meant to drive off an attacker till a 12 ga. shotgun or a rifle heavy enough to be considered a manstopper can be reached.
And even then, you had better be an excellent shot and be able to place your shots in the right place and have time even then for your shots to take effect subduing your target as they may still be able to kill you.
The 200 grain bullet in .38 caliber is a bone crusher when you are a good enough shot to place the bullet in a fleeing human or animal.
But as far as you being attacked, all you do is aim center of mass and hope it is enough.
But the load is only for shooting a flesh and blood target. Not barricades or doors or walls. The revolver can dump that load and let you reload with more suitable ammo.
Again, it's all timing and being able to stay on top of things and maybe being an excellent shot with your weapon would be of the best help.
The 200 grain Super Police load was loaded by Remington and Super X Western Cartridge until the late 1980s and early 1990s.
Well past anyone knowing what its purpose was much less able to be used by the Police who were all wearing 9mm pistols and changing some already to .40 caliber S&W.
Many people still wrongly thinking it was a heavy load for shooting thru walls and car bodies.Even engine blocks if you still carried the retired .38 pistol.
It was only made to break bones in flesh and blood targets by people who were able marksmen.
That's all barring a head shot.

[uscra112]

Great anecdotes. I did know that even into the '50s police teams were the ones to beat in bullseye competition. Detroit stood very high in the standings. And they shot one-handed, too. None of this wussified Weaver Stance stuff. (wih apologies to Jeff Cooper). They had some real good revolvers, too. Some years ago I came into a Colt Officers' Model that shoots the lights out if you hold it correctly. Mine will put all six in one hole at 15 yards, time after time, even without practicing. Many departments had their own reloading shops, and cast their own bullets, so their guys could get some serious practice.

[VariableRecall]

The 200 grain lead bullet load was called the E St Louis Police Load because back in the day late 1930s I think the Police would shoot low and aim at a fleeing suspect and shoot them in the butt.
The heavy bullet would usually break the pelvis which brought the person down as they could no longer run with a broken hip.
It apparently worked so well that the Chicago Police used it extensively on anyone they weren't trying to kill , but merely stop from fleeing.
The Police in that time competed in pistol competition and it was widely known that you didn't shoot it out with the police nor did you run away when he yelled halt.
Usually a warning shot fired in the air was enough to stop someone because the next one would be in you.
The 200 grain .38 special load was called a Police Load and was printed on the box it came in.
It was used all the way till the late 1950s and early 1960s.
Police no longer fired a warning shot and had been changing to the four inch revolvers and lighter framed guns.
Only Motorcycle Patrolmen and most cops that walked a beat carried a six inch revolver. Detectives carried snub nose like Joe Friday.
The 200 grain bullet was still around, but only the old timers seemed to know what it was for.
Besides, the .357 had been around since 1935 and was considered as too powerful a gun for most Police Departments to use by the civilian review boards and lawyers.
This info is on the internet and is written about in Police history books and has also been glossed over in places in rewritten history books.
The Oldtome Police had to be tougher than the oldtime crooks who were as bad as you can get.
Today, 5Foot 4 inch Policewomen ride around in Police cars by themselves where one Policemen had to be at least 5 foot 10 inches tall and the bigger the better. They used to be able to afford two policemen in a patrol car and when there was unruly drunks to be dealt with, they called the biggest cops that were on duty if possible.
Because size commands respect and still they had a hard time subduing drug addicts, and drunks anyway.
The 200 grain bullet was used during a time when law and order was more important than politicians and criminals rights.
If I was going out after dark with friends my Dad always admonished me with the saying " Nobody out there after dark son but cops and drunks and you ain't a cop."
But he was an oltimer.What did he know?
I sure miss him.My Dad.

Shooting someone in the pelvis sounds like a bad move as a "less lethal" option, but I suppose those were the times back then. Far too many important highways in the body down there to warrant it as a less lethal move. Same reason why "just shoot them in the legs" doesn't work as a less lethal option either.

In my honest opinion, if a situation is dire enough, with your life or your family's lives on the line to warrant the use of a firearm, it better be used for lethal force, with all of its ramifications.

[Petrol & Powder]

It may be a bit of revisionist history to characterize police shooting fleeing suspects in the legs or buttocks as an intentional aiming point. It would probably be a bit more accurate to say that prior to Tennessee v Garner, police would occasionally shoot at fleeing felons and occasionally the suspect would be struck in the lower extremities.

VariableRecall, there's a little history involved. Prior to the U.S. Supreme Court case Tennessee v. Garner
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tennessee_v._Garner
it was an accepted practice to use deadly force to stop fleeing felons.
I think it would fair to say that prior to the Tennessee v. Garner case, it was acceptable to shoot unarmed, fleeing felons and SOMETIMES those subjects were stuck in the legs.
After such a shooting, there's little doubt that the officer would: A. Claim he had been aiming for the suspect's legs, and B. Quietly be relived he hadn't killed the suspect even though it was permissible to do so.