Is 283 fps too slow for 45 LC?

[Swamp_Yankee]

I suspect the answer is "yes". Story follows.

I've been reloading for the last 15 years. Never had any major problems and am generally satisfied with results. I reload everything. Two Hornady LNL's, an RCBS and a Lyman single stage. 9 mm to 45 ACP/LC and 30-06 in between. That said, I came upon a couple pounds of Trailboss and switched over from 6.0 gr. Unique to 4.6 gr. Trailboss for my 250 gr. 0.452 LC Colt loads. I got the itch to push the load a little lower and went to 4.4 gr Trailboss. Was out in the back yard testing rounds to see if they made it out the barrel and one rebounded off a cherry log and hit me straight in the chest. No harm, no foul. Just a red mark. Bullet completely intact (SNS casting polymer lubed). It never occurred to me that a slow bullet could be more dangerous than a fast bullet.... as long as it exited the barrel. Took the batch out to the range and ran it on the chronograph today. 10 feet from muzzle, average was 435 fps. Slowest was 283 fps. This was from a 7" New Vaquero with throats I reamed. Max fps was 518. I think the Hornady is having a hard time dropping the powder accurately at these low levels. Or is the Trailboss a problem at low volumes?

Also, if you're one those guys who responds by saying, "Give up reloading, you are an idiot" please don't bother. I'm looking for actual insight and that is not useful.

So what is the slowest acceptable fps to ensure the bullet does not get stuck?

[cwtebay]

I believe that Trail Boss has very specific directions for use. I would be very concerned about the empty case volume that you are leaving with that powder. The velocities that you are reporting are the kind that will result in a barrel obstruction.
Where did you get that load data?
I'm not being critical, just concerned.
There are some very brilliant minds here, I'm sure one will be along shortly.
Welcome to this forum!

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

[wmitty]

You may have set a new velocity record! Glad the bounce back didn’t cause an injury! If you recovered the boolit it should give a good indication of groove diameter of your barrel. Welcome to forum and I would think the required exit velocity would vary according to barrel length; barrel interior surface condition and alloy makeup and lube used; plus a few other variables I can’t think of at the moment. You won’t find many folks here wanting to criticize; but we do try and watch out for each other. Welcome aboard!

[onelight]

Welcome to the forum .
That those few loads had such a wide extreme spread kinda has a message in it :)
Might be a good powder charge for fire lapping . If I remember right when I fire lapped my Ruger 45 colt I was using around 3 grains of red dot and stuck a couple in the barrel , I was watching for that and cleared it before the next shot. But I bet you are close to that .

[GhostHawk]

I suspect if it got any slower you would stick on in the barrel.

Personally I've had good luck with 6.5 gr of Red Dot below a 230 gr cast. But my .45 colt is a single shot Handi rifle.

I do have a few loads where I go as little as 2 or 3 grains of Red Dot, but they are much smaller calibers and bullets.

[BNE]

Yes, slow bullets are more prone to bounce back than to go through your target.

I have played around with REALLY slow bullets. I don't think your equipment is to blame. You can have different results with the exact same powder load.
Make sure you check that the barrel is cleared before you make each shot, but using the same load, try this:

1) Point the barrel up and slowly level the gun. Then fire.

2) Point the gun down and slowly lift it up. Then fire.

There will be a measurable velocity difference. #1 above will be faster. - The powder is against the primer and you get better ignition.

Fun stuff. Keep your safety glasses on!!

[44Blam]

I didn't realize how dangerous slow bullets were until I was at a friend's house and he was shooting a 45 caliber air gun. Shooting 350 grain boolits at about 600 fps. I had some AR 500 plates and told him he could shoot it and he did. The boolit bounced off the steel against the ground and came straight back hitting a grill that was between and about 10 yards behind us.
I buddy of mine shoots 45 ACP in his little 1911 and just looking around his yard you find intact bullets everywhere.
When the velocity goes up, they splatter on that hard steel instead of bounce.

[PositiveCaster]

Hodgdon’s starting load for a 250-grain bullet is 4.5 grains of TB at 903 fps and 8800 psi. This should be an appropriate load but for whatever reason it is not. The OP should probably increase that load a bit..

[nvbirdman]

Too bad you couldn't have measured the velocity of that bounce back when it was coming back at you. That would have been really interesting.

[WinchesterM1]

I’ve had that happen 2 times in my life, both in college I was shooting a friends Type 14 Nambu with REAL ww2 ammo at a 55 gal burn barrel and the first round bounced off and hit me in the leg and left a bruise. The second time I was in the desert of SE Idaho shooting bowling pins with my roommate with his hi-point 45acp and we hit a bowling pin and it came straight back hitting me in the shin from about 35-40’ away this was a full power 45 acp load and it hurt!

[trudd]

That's a huge swing, and I know you know that. I wonder - if you hand weighed your intended charge of 4.4gr if the ES would remain that large. May not be a viable long-term solution if you're intending to load from a measure/dropper in bulk though. Seems possible though more of the range is from variation in the actual charge weights than inconsistent ignition?

[Wayne Smith]

More likely what BNE posted, change in the orientation of the charge in the large case.

[Tripplebeards]

I have a post somewhere here from a couple years ago using 5.2 grains of trail boss in my 45 colt new vaquero. After measuring my minimum charge which as around 5.1 grains loaded at the top crimp groove I had a brain fart and never re measured after deciding to load it long...and adding a magnum primer (since I had not standard primers) to boot. I load a 255 grain lee boolit long to the bottom crimp groove just off the forcing cones. It’s also sized at .451”. It will push through all my forcing cones with finger pressure. It’s under the minimum charge recommendation charge (case capacity) because I loaded it long. My average speed is around 575 FPS. I can stack boolits on top of each other at 25 yards with the load when I do my part. I was afraid of a squib since I was approx 55% case capacity with my long loaded ammo. The starting charge is either 70 or 80 percent of full capacity if I remember correctly. Anyways, I was afraid of a possible squib because of the low velocities and called hodgen to ask if my load was alright. I was told by two diff ent load techs that My load was fine. I believe the minimum suggested charge was 5 grains of powder with my load...loaded at normal lengths. I would tell you to bump your load back up to at least 5.2 grains. My gun recoils like a 22 wmr and will drive tacks. Any heavier charge and my groups open up.

[Tripplebeards]

It’s 70% percent of case capacity minimum suggested start....I didn’t do it correctly either with my long load. Hodgen told me the burn rate with trail boss is so fast it still creates similar pressures and that’s why it worked with my load...but I am also using a magnum pistol primer vs a standard primer so I’m sure it helped increase speed and pressure with my “long” load.


Here is the way it’s recommended. I drew a few examples in my load book with a couple of 44 mag charges...

https://i.imgur.com/uMhFEEv.jpg


I would tell you to measure your seating depth and start at 70% your case capacity with a standard large pistol primer and work your way up in .2 grain increments till you get a tight grouping load.

Here are a few of the colt 45’s I loaded long...

https://i.imgur.com/jJlIFUv.jpg


Hope my info helps. I just see a squib load eventually happening in your future at under 300 FPS.

[Swamp_Yankee]

Lots of good replies to parse. Let me start with this one:

"Hodgdon’s starting load for a 250-grain bullet is 4.5 grains of TB at 903 fps and 8800 psi. This should be an appropriate load but for whatever reason it is not. The OP should probably increase that load a bit..."

Yes, I got my data from them and figured dropping to 4.4 would be OK with such a high fps at 4.5/4.6 grains. I can say that 4.6/4.7 grains is noticeably snappier than 6.0 grains of Unique. But my measured velocities at 4.4 were WAY lower than published data at 4.6. So what gives? I was loading at a COAL of 1.600. I know it's largish but it fits the crimp groove well. Mixed brass, RP and Win.

I think BNE may be onto something with powder position. Not going to try messing with it again at these low levels because it could get dangerous. I've had one squib-stuck bullet in my life and prefer not to repeat. It was an FMJ .38 special. But I was able to push a .452 bullet out of a 7" barrel at 283 fps, I would not have expected that. I have always heard that 500 fps is considered minimal acceptable but that might be FMJ.

What I did learn is that a bullet coming out the barrel at 400 fps is a powder puff. A 600 fps bullet is noticeably more snappy. Both are shootable but for my kids and lady-friends I think the 400 fps is a better option. I'm not hunting with my Vaqueros, just knocking over plates and enticing my friends and family to become shooters.

Also, Triplebeards, nice boolits! Where can I find the purple ones!!! Mine are red and I am not a fan. Looks too much like blood when it bounces off of me.

So what would be a good option to get around 500 fps in a 250 boolit? Or can I reliably go lower, to 400, and not get stuck boolits at the range? Powder supply is obviously a problem. I have HP-38, W231, Unique, Trailboss (no good), 20/28, Solo 1250, HS-6, Alliant #7, H110, Power Pistol and 2400. My version of Quickload is v3.5, 10 years old at least with many missing parameters. I just ordered the update but it will be coming from Germany....

Any suggestions?

[Tripplebeards]

It’s a mix Smokes traffic purple and black. I tell you my 255 grain lee/5.2 grain TB load loaded long with a magnum primer is really tame. It averages 575 FPS out of the three I sent through my chronograph. Your kids would be able to shoot it all day long. The load has a pretty wimpy felt recoil and it’s extremely accurate to boot. I’d tell to at least jump to 5 grains of TB and test again. Did you mark the case where your boolit seats and fill with powder to the seating depth? That would be you max compressed load. Then you can do the math and then reduce tour load to 70% as Hodgen advises. I think I got got licked because I boo booed and added a magnum primer. I’m sure it bumped my velocity by a good 50 or more FPS if I had to guess. I was nervous that I was under 600 FPS and getting a squib. I wouldn’t want any slower velocities then where my load currently is especially if I had a kid or wife have a squib and stack another in the barrel. It wouldn’t be a good outcome. I’d tell you to at least call hodgen and talk with one of their load data guus and explain the velocities your currently getting.

[unique]

So what is the slowest acceptable fps to ensure the bullet does not get stuck?

I think you'll find that at the very low end of velocities there will be variations that will be difficult to control so loading for a minimum velocity is not going to work so well. A clean or slightly oiled barrel will require less powder then one fouled. Powder position in the case (near bullet or near primer) probably will cause the largest variation. I say this based upon actual experience not theoretical meandering, meaning I have tried something similar.

[Jedman]

Years ago I shot some 45-70 loads with 7 grs. of 700 x and heavy Postell boolits at 100 yards and you could see the boolits in flight. When they hit the 1/8” thick metal targets they put a dent the size of your fist in the metal but didn’t penetrate it. I have no idea what velocity they were but it reminded me of watching marbles shot from a slingshot.

Jedman

[Bigslug]

One of my favorite photos of "weird stuff you see at the range":

280201

Was working up a load for a batch of HG#50 wadcutters. Don't know if this was primer only or a really light charge, but it does kind drive home the point that there is such a thing as going too low. I've had firelapping load sessions where the velocities were so low that an idiot might be tempted to stop one with a catcher's mitt - - and there were a few that stopped in the bore with the same charge.

There's really too many variables here to say "this average velocity will get the slug out of the bore, and this one won't". Bullet-to-bore diameters, alloy hardness, bore smoothness, gas lost at cylinder gap, bullet weight/momentum, etc...

BUT. . .you have to dig pretty deep into your manuals to find listed loads running much under 600 fps. Lyman's got a 200 grain jacketed .45 Auto Rim load with 3.4 grains of 700X listing 491fps as the significant standout. For your purposes, they list 4.5 grains of Green Dot behind a 250 grain bullet in .45 Colt as giving 505 fps, and the same charge behind the 255 grain Keith at 500 fps. That's probably getting down to the ragged edge of sanity.:veryconfu

The caution I'd throw out there is that you are trying to put together a women and kid load, and that newbies don't have the knowledge or experience to detect and correctly diagnose a squib when it happens. Despite your best efforts, they may start stacking bullets in your bore before you can dive at them, in slow motion, yelling "NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" So whatever you come up with, test the beejeezus out of it before you turn them loose. A more standard load in a smaller cartridge might be the wiser path.

[onelight]

Big slug that is a great picture [smilie=l:

[greenjoytj]

Maybe try shorter brass like the Cowboy Special brass, Scofield or just trim back a few cases to test. The smaller internal case volume would help keep pressure up and more stable to reduce extreme spreads.

[Tripplebeards]

If I remember correctly when I first started messing with trailboss. I used it In my Ruger 77/44. I had some 400 plus FPS variance with the same load. At the time I blamed it in my crimping style or primers. I apply ALOT harder crimp now and switched primers. The velocities are way more consistent now.

[JoeJames]

I don’t think anyone has mentioned boolit hardness in relation to velocity. In my somewhat limited experience it appears that commercial cast boolits are harder than home cast (exception being Speer swaged swc’s), unless one is water quenching. With my Ruger BH in 44 Special, water quenched run about 70-80 fps faster than non quenched. And same for commercial boolits.

[bedbugbilly]

OP welcome!

I have never tried TB in my 45 Colt - mainly because I have never been able to find it where I buy powder as is seems to sell as soon as it comes in - so I am by no means experience ed with it.

If I understand correctly - you are dropping your charges with a powder measure? If so . . . then I would run a batch of them and when you throw the charge, then weigh each one out to see how consistent the powder measure is with that particular powder - again - no experience with TB so I don't know who well it meters.

As already suggested . . . if you want to shoot reduced loads - you might want to try some 45 Schofield brass or even some of Starline's 45 Cowboy brass. Right now, the issue will be in finding any due to shortages.

I don't push any of my 45 Colt/45 Schofield loads hard as I have no need to - am primarily plinking, killing cans, gongs, etc. I have a Uberti 7 1/2" Cattleman and the rest are C & B revolvers using Howell conversion cylinders.

Just my personal experiences - I have used Unique, Green Dot and Red Dot - all work. With a conversion cylinder, Howell wants you to keep them below 850 fps so I usually start out with the starting load suggested which will meet that criteria. If you decide to try 45 Schofield - the 4th edition of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook includes Schofield loading data. While I have used Unique, Green Dot and Red Dot - for me and my individual pistols, Red Dot has given me excellent results and while I don't have a chronograph - the powder seems to work very well.

Ed Harrisa (Out[pst75) has tested and worked with Bulls Eye in the 45 Colt (Long) and he advised me to avoid using that particular powder - evidently he ran into issues with the small amount used and the large case volume,e of the 45 Colt and due to those issues - and I wold imagine powder position when shooting as well - he indicated that there can be a fluctuation in pressure. Just mentioning that so you can keep that in mind as far as that particular powder. I'm not experienced with TB, but wonder if the same applies to that particular powder when used in reduced loads?

As far as "bullet bounce back" goes . . . if pushed slow, that can be an issue. I have never experienced it personally, but have read about it a number of times. One in particular was a fellow shooting a Uberti 1849 pocket pistol (cap and ball - 31 cal.). He was shooting in his back yard at a chunk of wood to see what the penetration would be. He didn't say what his charge was but normally it's about 12 grains of 3F black powder. Long story short - the wood was quite hard and the fps was not that great and the round ball bounced back and struck him as well - he didn't get hurt but it sure woke him up in a hurry.

Good luck to you and enjoy!