45-120

[jconley]

Hello,
I'm super new here having just found this site.
Please forgive me for asking a question that most likely has been asked many times in the past. I will start looking through old post, I just want to get something ordered quickly if needed.

I have an old Pedersoli in 45-120 that hasn't been touched in 20 years or so, back then I loaded up 350gr rounds for my father using smokeless powder and old media from my tumbler for the extra space. I'm wanting a new project so I thought I'd try casting some bullets and running black powder through it for the first time. As of this moment, the only experience I have with casting and black power would be casting projectiles and shooting old black power rifles when I was a kid.

I have some lead. it's 20 to 1, I have a cheep set of Lee 2 cavity .457 making 450gr. and some magnum primers. If I do go black power, I'm short on supply and only have Pyrodex. I have P and RS. Will this work?
So My question is, do I need to get a sizing/lube press. Or can I get away with a Lee bullet sizing die, if so what size do I get. I'd like to maybe go paper patch but if I did that does that mean I need to get a smaller than .457 sizer? Midway has a .454, .452 and .451.
Or am I going about this all wrong?

I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts..

[Cast_outlaw]

Well a lee push through die will work but lube needs to be natural as in no oil products so crisco beeswax 50/50 is a common black powder lube. Petroleum based lube make the fowling turn to concrete

[country gent]

The PP Black powder bullet is a slightly different "animal than for smokeless. It is actually a bore rider not groove dia. My brooks mould drops 20-1 bullet at .442-.443 then 2 wraps of paper bring it to .450 dia. Lube if used is in the form of a grease cookie under the bullet, since there are no grease grooves to hold carry the lube.

Wrapping the bullet;
Cut your patches you want from ogive just past the base. I wrap with no tail a small circle of lead showing inside the fold over. Patch should make 2 wraps about 030 short of matching this account for the slight radius of the over wrap.
wrap bullets tight and form fold over. My Brooks mould has a cupped base that allows paper to form in holding better and a very flat base. You can wrap dry or damp but the template needs "adjusted" for damp as the paper stretches more. Damp wrapping also requires some drying time.
Once wrapped and dry a very light coat of Jo Jpba oil on the patch.

Loading is slightly different than grease groove but straight forward.
Here is my data for the 45-90
clean cases hand deprime and reprime lightly brushing inside if fired cases.
Drop powder charge into case and add a .060 napa rubber fiber wad. then 2 tracing paper wads
compress to depth required to get .125-.180 of bullet into case. Remember these are bore riding and slide up into bore allowing more room for powder.
size around bullet to just hold bullet, Mine are such that the bullet dosnt fall out but can be turned or pulled by hand.

With Black powder no airspace to start and work up adding compression my loads run around .180 compression with Olde Ensforde. I work up in 2 grain increments the test at mid point of the 2 best loads

My brooks mould is set to drop a 525 grn bullet when cast from 20-1.

I also use a wrapping board to wrap the patch on

[jconley]

Thank you both for the replies,
I think I'm going to slow down before I just go on an ordering spree. I'm thinking the first thing I need to do is establish my overall dimensions, so I going to slug the bore.
The whole thing makes me real nervous, I've spent my shooting life making sure lead doesn't end up in my barrel and now I'm about to hammer some in.
Or maybe I'll try chamber casting..

[Lead pot]

You better find out what the twist of the barrel is to get the optimum bullet length. And also see if the chamber has the free bore throat. My early Pedersoli had a bunch of free bore, if yours has it you will have to adjust the patched diameter for the free bore and not the bore diameter to get any accuracy out of that rifle.

[jconley]

Well so far I’ve established it has a 1 in 18 twist.

[Cast_outlaw]

Try cerosafe it’s low melting temp and shrinks when it cools the at one you’re after cast it is the exact size and continues to expand over two weeks to .0025 over I’ve used it many times works great just wrap a wire around a screwdriver a few times and put a small piece of clothe on it to block the bore a few inches down if you warm the barrel it’s casts nicer when hardens apply upward pressure and it will pop right out set a timer for one hour then measure

[jconley]

Try cerosafe it’s low melting temp and shrinks when it cools the at one you’re after cast it is the exact size and continues to expand over two weeks to .0025 over I’ve used it many times works great just wrap a wire around a screwdriver a few times and put a small piece of clothe on it to block the bore a few inches down if you warm the barrel it’s casts nicer when hardens apply upward pressure and it will pop right out set a timer for one hour then measure

Thanks, just ordered it.

[missionary5155]

With cerosafe follows the directions. If you leave it in the barrel to long (15 minutes of distractions ) it begins to return to original chamber size and you will need to bash it out.
PP has a definite advantage in application. Target shooting for long distances is one. Firing soft cast fast is another. Adding diameter to skinny cast another. Or just doing it the old way !
But if you are only shooting 5 rounds at a steel gong a properly fitted lubed cast is going to do all you need. Hunting... One well placed accurate slug does it all.
So yes. Think through the purpose and jump in.

[jconley]

With cerosafe follows the directions. If you leave it in the barrel to long (15 minutes of distractions ) it begins to return to original chamber size and you will need to bash it out.

Will do..

[Don McDowell]

When you get that chamber cast done, you might also want to take a measurement of inside of a fired case mouth. Then you'll want to be looking for someplace to order a proper patched bullet mould that will drop a slick from you're 20-1 about .004 or 005 under the diameter of the inside of your fired case mouth. In that 120 16-1 alloy may groove to give you much less problems with nose slump.
While the Pyrodex Rs might work, you'll probably find much better results with 1f black.Get a bunch of it because you're not going to get many rounds from a can of powder. Some .060 fiber wads or LDPE wads will probably make life better if you're looking for nice sized groups.

[jconley]

When you get that chamber cast done, you might also want to take a measurement of inside of a fired case mouth. Then you'll want to be looking for someplace to order a proper patched bullet mould that will drop a slick from you're 20-1 about .004 or 005 under the diameter of the inside of your fired case mouth. In that 120 16-1 alloy may groove to give you much less problems with nose slump.
While the Pyrodex Rs might work, you'll probably find much better results with 1f black.Get a bunch of it because you're not going to get many rounds from a can of powder. Some .060 fiber wads or LDPE wads will probably make life better if you're looking for nice sized groups.

Great info, thanks so much..
Do you think I can get away with using my lee mold for the time being if I can size down the bullet with a die? I'm fine with getting a new mold, it's just it may be a bit before I can get my hands one one..

[Don McDowell]

No point to wrapping a grease groove bullet with paper. But I know some do so.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I have a number of Pedersoli Sharps and have chamber cast on 3 of them.

I use Federal Large pistol primers, because the cup is softer ignition is more positive and fast. I did some prolonged testing some years ago, LP gave as little as 5fps variation while LR's were 40-55fps. Groups tightened from loose 2.5MOA to a consistant 1+ MOA average.

This group at 100yds is actually 11 shots because at the time I thought I had shot on the adjoining target! Load was 115gn Swiss 1 1/2 (2FG) with a custom 545gn PGT bullet.

https://i.imgur.com/E7vhjh2.jpg

Doing a bit of research on the great barrel makers, Harry Pope, George Schoynan, Paine, and the overwhelming factor is a tapered bore. All these great masters were keen on the idea that a barrel should be tapered for best accuracy. The old MH was tapered having .009 deep rifling for the first "4" and only .007 for the remainder; and even today, modern makers like Pedersoli have a tapered bore in their BPCR rifles. Parker Hale reproductions from the 1970's have tapered bores.

Many shooters think this allows them to in jam oversized projectiles for best accuracy, but from references in "The muzzleloading Caplock Rifle" and "The bullets Flight" by Mann, it would seem that the main reason was to accomodate the powder fouling where it mostly accumulates (immediately in front of the combustion chamber) so that second and subsequent rounds could be fired without cleaning (battlefield conditions)

In the history of the "Little Big Horn" massacre, we know that the trapdoors after a few rounds experienced jamming and lack of extraction. When I look at my own original trapdoor, behold no taper that I detect!
Modern after market rifle barrel makers provide smooth parallel bores; so have we got it wrong?

Quote from The Pedersoli factory

So........ given that we broach rifle our Pedersoli barrels and obtain straight lands and grooves with match grade tolerances we then add our final high quality feature which is to impart a very small taper on the rifling, from breech to muzzle!

Now when a bullet is fired in this barrel is is constantly entering slightly smaller dimensions and thus it maintains almost a perfect gas seal....resulting in those highly required "single digit" muzzle velocity variations as well as extremely small velocity spread (ES) in a long string of shots. With groove and bore dimensions held to the match grade standards of plus/minus .0002" and then having the little taper to the entire length of the rifling, we end up with barrels which are capable of accuracy equal to or superior to any other barrels made today, and at a price many can afford.

End Quote



So extrapolating from this data Pedersoli barrels run 0.450/458" at the muzzle to 0.452/0.458 at the breech. Your cast bullet nose therefore should match the 0.452" for perfect alignment. All this explains why match shooting with a Pedersoli Sharps is a science, NOT just another gun!

[jconley]

Good info, thank you. So one thing for sure is my .457 mold is not going to work with what I’m wanting to do, no sizing die is going to get me to .452.

In the last few day’s I’ve learned a lot and have a good bit to go before I get started.

[GregLaROCHE]

Doing a chamber cast is a good idea, but I would slug the barrel too.

[jconley]

Doing a chamber cast is a good idea, but I would slug the barrel too.

Do you guys think I could use some of the cerosafe cast in a ball to slug the barrel?

[Bad Ass Wallace]

My 50cal Sharps also has the barrel taper but it measures 0.002" and I use a variety of boolits sized to 0.512, a chamber cast will also tell you where the boolit should be seated to be no more than 0.005 off the rifling.
50/70 bench rested 100yd x 10 shot group
https://i.imgur.com/7Rj84YX.jpg

It should not be hard to find a mold that will cast 0.459"/0.460" that will work in you rifle. I have a couple including a 500gn spire point by Pedersoli that casts 0.4595 and it shot unsized.

50/70 loads with 450gn and 510gn boolits
https://i.imgur.com/QmglPAy.jpg

[Don McDowell]

Do you guys think I could use some of the cerosafe cast in a ball to slug the barrel?

No. When you do the chamber cast put the plug to catch the cerrosafe about an inch into the rifling.

[GregLaROCHE]

You seem to be really hesitant to push a slug of soft lead down your barrel. Don’t be. Make sure you lead is soft, as close as pure lead as possible. Then tapit down from the muzzle. Put some bullet grease on it and as soon as it starts, it should go down easily. Running a swab with grease on it is a good idea. Note if you have an area where it goes through too easily areas where it is hard. Usually this won’t happen and it will slide right through and give you a lot of important information. Don’t hesitate, just do it.

[jconley]

I think you misunderstand, I'm not saying I would melt the cerrosafe to slug the barrel, can I use a chuck of it like I would with lead and slug the barrel?
Or is the structure of the cerrosafe all wrong. My lead is 20 to 1, so I was thinking I shouldn't use that to slug.

[Don McDowell]

Cerrosafe won't work to drive a slug. Your 20-1 will work, cast one of your bullets and drive it thru. Just grease the snot out of the barrel and the bullet.
But still a cerrosafe chamber cast that takes in the first inch of the rifling, will tell you a lot more about what you need to know.

[Bent Ramrod]

Cerrosafe is harder than even lead alloys. Its function is via a low melting point for obtaining a cast of cavities of unknown shapes.

Get a 0.457” or so round lead ball, oil your bore up, expand the ball if necessary with a couple taps on the anvil of your vise, (the one you’re going to hold the gun in vertically) tap the flattened ball into the muzzle with an aluminum or brass punch, and shove it through with a stout cleaning rod with a flat tip. Catch it in a hat or dish with a shop rag under the breech.

Better still, why don’t you cast some boolits out of those Lee moulds, lube them with SPG, load up some shells according to established practice and see how the thing shoots before going through all this ancillary factfinding? Am I the only one who gets a rifle and shoots it without doing all this mechanical heartburning first? Modern firearms (and Pedersolis are state-of-the-art) don’t have all the glitches that a worn, rusty antique is liable to. Even with them, I see how they shoot with regular load development before mechanical analysis. Usually, it isn’t necessary anyway.

Believe me, if you don’t want to pound lead out of a barrel, you will likely be less than pleased trying to get a Cerrosafe casting out of your chamber if you follow the directions and wait. The stuff I have starts expanding as soon as it hardens, and I’ve had to melt my castings out several times before I wised up and pushed the thing out as soon as the end frosted over. Then, I wait the requisite time for the dimensions to stabilize before measuring.

I always used the now-obsolete Pyrodex CTG in my .45-70, with a little Pyrodex P at the top of the column just under the boolit. Seemed to shoot a little closer that way. Never tried a full load of the finer material in anything larger than .38 calibers, but it shot OK with no problems. I would think the RS would work, but I went to black powder after the CTG became unavailable, so have no experience with it in .45 calibers.

[jconley]

Cerrosafe won't work to drive a slug. Your 20-1 will work, cast one of your bullets and drive it thru. Just grease the snot out of the barrel and the bullet.
But still a cerrosafe chamber cast that takes in the first inch of the rifling, will tell you a lot more about what you need to know.

Sounds good, I just thought the 20 to 1 would be to hard. If you guys think it's fine, that's good enough for me..

[jconley]

Cerrosafe is harder than even lead alloys. Its function is via a low melting point for obtaining a cast of cavities of unknown shapes.

Get a 0.457” or so round lead ball, oil your bore up, expand the ball if necessary with a couple taps on the anvil of your vise, (the one you’re going to hold the gun in vertically) tap the flattened ball into the muzzle with an aluminum or brass punch, and shove it through with a stout cleaning rod with a flat tip. Catch it in a hat or dish with a shop rag under the breech.

Better still, why don’t you cast some boolits out of those Lee moulds, lube them with SPG, load up some shells according to established practice and see how the thing shoots before going through all this ancillary factfinding? Am I the only one who gets a rifle and shoots it without doing all this mechanical heartburning first? Modern firearms (and Pedersolis are state-of-the-art) don’t have all the glitches that a worn, rusty antique is liable to. Even with them, I see how they shoot with regular load development before mechanical analysis. Usually, it isn’t necessary anyway.

Believe me, if you don’t want to pound lead out of a barrel, you will likely be less than pleased trying to get a Cerrosafe casting out of your chamber if you follow the directions and wait. The stuff I have starts expanding as soon as it hardens, and I’ve had to melt my castings out several times before I wised up and pushed the thing out as soon as the end frosted over. Then, I wait the requisite time for the dimensions to stabilize before measuring.

I always used the now-obsolete Pyrodex CTG in my .45-70, with a little Pyrodex P at the top of the column just under the boolit. Seemed to shoot a little closer that way. Never tried a full load of the finer material in anything larger than .38 calibers, but it shot OK with no problems. I would think the RS would work, but I went to black powder after the CTG became unavailable, so have no experience with it in .45 calibers.

You make good points, I've shot the gun many time years ago, I'm just looking for something new and interesting to do for a new project. I thought PP would be a fun and different thing to do..

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I agree with "Bent Ramrod" nearly every forum has recommendations to 'slug the barrel' but the problem is that 99% of shooters don't have the necessary expensive metrology equipment to measure accurately.

Shoot the darn thing, try different combinations, different boolits, different powders etc.

I have two molds that I use a lot, Lyman tapered boolits for 45/70 and 40/65, not practical in the field but at the range they work!

https://i.imgur.com/bU8WVKz.jpg

[jconley]

Shoot the darn thing, try different combinations, different boolits, different powders etc.

I have two molds that I use a lot, Lyman tapered boolits for 45/70 and 40/65, not practical in the field but at the range they work!

https://i.imgur.com/bU8WVKz.jpg

What you’re saying makes perfect sense, I appreciate it.
For me right now I’m just looking for some thing that’s a little detailed, interesting and might take a little bit a time to get just right.
Most of my shooting is focused on competitions and I’m in some sort of match each weekend. Nowadays most of my loading is done on the progressive press unless I’m doing something long range but then those loads have long been figured out. So the casting and paper patch is really more just for A hobby to chew up a few minutes in the evening every once in a while

[beshears]

My bullets for 40-79 SBN are cast .395. .013 undersize groove dia. Wrapped with two wraps paper from BACO and then sized .400 and hand seated in case neck. Bullet is bore sized, not groove sized. A .400 dia in a .408 groove dia barrel.

[Don McDowell]

You make good points, I've shot the gun many time years ago, I'm just looking for something new and interesting to do for a new project. I thought PP would be a fun and different thing to do..

When you get things right with paper patched loads, you'll get to the point where you almost shudder at the thoughts of having to shoot grease groove bullets. But unfortunately until you get the right diameter for the bullet before wrapping, then paper thickness, getting paper patch to shoot consistently well can be a real challenge. Fouling control is really critical for accuracy with patched.

[Lead pot]

Do a chamber cast like Don said. It will give you more information than driving a slug through. You can also stuff some cotton balls or patches a couple inches from the muzzle and get that dimension to see if you have a tapered muzzle.


280165280166

[jconley]

I’m cleaning the barrel now, this rifle has been in the back of the safe for the last 15 or more years, when it was put up I’m not sure if it was cleaned well or not. I’m thinking when I sat it down I didn’t think it would be this long before I picked it up again.
It looks good and the barrel didn’t look to dirty when I looked down it. I brushed it out several times and have some Butch’s Bore Shine sitting in it. I’m going to get it super clean tonight.
Tomorrow I’ll lube it up and make a chamber cast. I’ll do a long one like the one in the picture above.

[jconley]

Could someone recommend a black powder I should start off with first? As I said before, right now all I have is Pyrodex. I have P and RS.
If I can find some, what would a good first powder to try? Or should I just try what I have?

[Lead pot]

For that 3-1/4" case I would stick with 1 F Swiss, Goex or Olde Eynsford. The regular Goes start with around .250" compression and the OE or Swiss less than .100"
I used 118 gr of the old Goex Express powder under a 525 gr postell nosed PP bullet setoff with a white box of Win LR primer.

[GregLaROCHE]

If you are serious about paper patching you might consider getting a plain sided boolit mold that drops boolits close to if not exactly the size you need to shoot. If you are always using an exact 20:1 alloy, a molds dimensions should be able to be calculated, that drops exactly what you need.

[jconley]

So I got the chamber cast done this afternoon. I pulled it after 20 minutes and measured it right away. I’ve got a bore of .456 and .452 in the lands. The free bore is difficult to get an accurate measurement but I’m somewhere in the neighborhood of .320, so I’ve got a decent idea where to start with my seating depth.
I’m I correct in thinking I now need to decide on my paper? Once I’ve got that and know the thickness, I’ll then know the size of the mold I’ll need.

I’ve found some powder and have a few pounds of Swiss 1F and Goex on the way. I’m looking into a die for a compression plug, and while I’m at it I guess I need an expander of some kind and I’ve got to pick up some sort of wad too.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

So I got the chamber cast done this afternoon. I pulled it after 20 minutes and measured it right away. I’ve got a bore of .456 and .452 in the lands.

Check those measurements again, I seriously doubt Pedersoli makes barrels with rifling of only 0.002" per side.

Watch the video on barrel making.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOo-muzMRp0

[jconley]

Check those measurements again, I seriously doubt Pedersoli makes barrels with rifling of only 0.002" per side.

Watch the video on barrel making.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOo-muzMRp0

I’m trying to upload a picture so you can see just how shallow they are.
I measured several times and feel very confident about it. It’s been several hours and it looks as though the entire thing has grown slightly. I show everything to be .002 larger now..
Now I’m getting .458 and .454

[jconley]

I’m trying to upload a picture, when I choose the file it just sits there and doesn’t load.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I have cast chambers and muzzles for two rifles of mine, a 45/70 and a 45/90, both go 0.450"/0.458" at muzzle and 0.4515"/0.458" at the chamber. Since you want a bullet that is 1 or 2 thou larger than the bore choose 0.459/0.460". Believe me a normal boolit is a lot easier to tune than PP, I've been working these guns for over 40 years.

https://i.imgur.com/OwOZYlzh.jpg

[Don McDowell]

What is the diameter of the freeborn?

[jconley]

What is the diameter of the freeborn?

It’s difficult, I feel like the cast came out really nice it looks really good, but I feel like I need to spin it a little bit like when you’re trying to measure off an ogive. With calipers I’m coming up with 453. Not spinning it using micrometers .4535.

[jconley]

280260

[Don McDowell]

You could most likely get by pretty well with a slick cast at .450 and wrapped in seth cole 55w. Something around 1.4 or 1.45 long.
In that 120 I wouldn't use anything softer than 20-1 and 16-1 or harder will likely treat you better.

[jconley]

Thank you guys for the replies. I guess I’ll make up a few rounds this weekend and slug the bore.
Could be I can get some better measurements off that.

280261
280262

[jconley]

Pulled out my old casting part. This was my grandfathers I don’t think it’s been out of the box for at least 20 years. It has a good amount of surface rust on it, so I just filled it up 280267full of rust illuminator. I’ll give it three or four hours then try to cast a few.

[Lead pot]

Is that a 5 groove barrel or a 6 ? It almost sounds like your measuring from the top of the land to bottom of the groove.

[jconley]

Is that a 5 groove barrel or a 6 ? It almost sounds like your measuring from the top of the land to bottom of the groove.

It’s a 6 groove. I put a small dot on each groove to make sure I was getting in the right place.

[indian joe]

[QUOTE=Bent Ramrod;5152190]

Get a 0.457” or so round lead ball, oil your bore up, expand the ball if necessary with a couple taps on the anvil of your vise, (the one you’re going to hold the gun in vertically) tap the flattened ball into the muzzle with an aluminum or brass punch, and shove it through with a stout cleaning rod with a flat tip. Catch it in a hat or dish with a shop rag under the breech.

Better still, why don’t you cast some boolits out of those Lee moulds, lube them with SPG, load up some shells according to established practice and see how the thing shoots before going through all this ancillary factfinding? Am I the only one who gets a rifle and shoots it without doing all this mechanical heartburning first? Modern firearms (and Pedersolis are state-of-the-art) don’t have all the glitches that a worn, rusty antique is liable to. Even with them, I see how they shoot with regular load development before mechanical analysis. Usually, it isn’t necessary anyway.

No you are not the only one - there's two of us at least - I second it - load some grease boolits and get out there and shoot it !!!! ... Its pretty darn easy to get lost in the haze of technicalities on this site if you're not out there pulling the trigger as well. Do all this stuff later if it dont shoot up to par - if theres a problem then come back chasing advice.

[Chill Wills]

Indian Joe wrote: "No you are not the only one - there's two of us at least - I second it - "

Make that three. ;-)

If it were me, I would load it like I think it should be loaded and go from there. These aren't that hard as to agonize over it. Go have some fun. Improve from there. There are more than a few skilled BPCR riflemen here that can give good advice after you have a baseline.
Nothing like doing to understand the what and why.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

My "reservations" regarding paper patching! I have a special adjustable mold that can cast 320gn to 540gn plain boolits with a diameter of 0.448".

The paper that I found best was 'bank' 50 gms acid free from a specialist supplier. Using AutoCAD software I designed a two wrap patch that bought the diameter to 0.460". Now here is the 'catch', wrap the boolit dry and it soon swells to 0.462" in any sort of humid weather, if you grease the patch it will also swell, so all the measuring and slugging will be worth diddly squat at the range.

The other catch for new players is a cast of 1:40 or relatively soft so that the paper bonds to the soft cast boolit, believe me, I've tried many combinations over many years and I got good enough to be placed in the World Creedmoor Championships.

As I have said before, it is easier to tune with a correct size cast boolit and a good lube like SPG than dabble in PP'ing, at least for a beginner.

https://i.imgur.com/HOAGCEHm.jpg

[Castaway]

Wallace, are you seating paper between your primer and case? I’m leery of peening the breech face of my Sharps from the primer slamming against it

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Wallace, are you seating paper between your primer and case? I’m leery of peening the breech face of my Sharps from the primer slamming against it

No some of my guns are near 30 years old and no visable 'peening' of the breechblock from use. I use Federal LP primers which give more consistant ignition.

[Don McDowell]

Lots of misinformation about paper patching spread around the internet, concerning soft alloys, in appropriate paper and the like that causes a lot of headaches for new people venturing into paper patching.

[Lead pot]

Don,
The internet has what I call Parrots they repeat what they read with out ever doing it. They are not hard to spot.

Jconley, cast and shoot what you have to see what the results are and go from there. I always recumbent doing what I call a ladder load.
Pick a bullet use what ever alloy you have or make.
Pick a powder.
Start with slight compression with three loads each increasing them by one grain three each.
Pick your primer and wad stack and go shoot. This will give you trigger time and you will also see what is getting close to what you like, and it's usually with around 23 to 25 shots fired.
Then you can try something different one component at a time like changing powder, primer or wad stacks.
Your cast bullet, PP or GG if it's out of round or undersized will be bore/groove diameter and and round as it starts to move down the barrel.
I have seen rifles that had slugs pounded through ruined.
When I make a chamber cast is when I see patches with burned edges or when I get leading shooting the PP bullets to see if I have a overly deep groove for the paper I used, and to check to see if I got the dimensions I special ordered.
I have had two barrels that came that had a muzzle loading deep groove that gave me fits.
For a PP bullet a .003" deep groove is better than a .005-.006" deep.
I special order a barrel for the PP bullets that have .003" deep grooves but there is nothing wrong with a .004" .

[Don McDowell]

Leadpot it is interesting that the dead soft bullet thing lives on and on and.... Yet a bit of historical research has shown that the ODG's preferred alloy's from 15-1 to as hard as 11-1, and the Brits were experimenting with making harder bullets yet..
Patching paper was known in 3 thicknesses, thick, medium and thin. It appears that the thick equates to the 9 lb we have today, medium 8 lb and thin 7 lb.
The excessive freebore of the early Shiloh's and the copies the Italians made of those rifles can be a massive headache to get to shoot well, but it can be done, with enough money spent in different diameter moulds.
I think the biggest mistake folks make when jumping into the paper patch realm is going by weight and not paying enough attention to the length of the bullet to match the twist. Adjustable nose pour blocks can be a great help in finding the length a rifle likes.
The OP here has a grease groove mould, and the advise to cast some and shoot it is probably great, but he's interested in diving off into paper patching. It'll be an interesting journey for him, probably going to end up with a shelf full of moulds and stacks and stacks of different papers, wad material and the list goes on.
It hasn't been brought up yet, but probably the most important thing to shooting well at distance with patched is a great fouling control routine, and that can get almost involved as finding the right bullet/paper/wad and powder.

[jconley]

The last few post have been very kind and informative I appreciate all of your advice.

I will take this rifle out and play around with it a little bit before I get started. Most of my questions have resolved around how things are done and establishing the information I need to order the correct materials and tools. I’m trying to buy once and cry once.
I am an avid shooter and try to shoot in some type of competition every Saturday morning. Being in Texas there’s no short in shooting events on a weekend. I’ve been a serious competitor for the past 25 years shooting in different disciplines from IDPA, 3 gun, F class, and traveled to many different states shooting BenchRest at a regional and national level.
I didn’t decide to start shooting 45-120 because I needed something to shoot or something to do, I chose this project for the very reason that it is hard and it will be difficult.
I spend a good amount of time laying down prone on 1000 yard range, we always try to have several rifles so you don’t have to wait to shoot while your barrel cools down.
I just thought this would be a fun rifle to try to consistently hit a target at 4 or 500 yards while In between different rifles.

[Don McDowell]

Well have fun with the journey.. and it is fun. Even shooting grease groove bullets.
Just keep in mind that conditions that won't even make a 168 gr. SMK or Berger blink will make these fat ol chunks of lead puke their guts out.

[Tar Heel]

All this fuss and you haven't even shot it yet?

[jconley]

Well have fun with the journey.. and it is fun. Even shooting grease groove bullets.
Just keep in mind that conditions that won't even make a 168 gr. SMK or Berger blink will make these fat ol chunks of lead puke their guts out.

I think that’s exactly the point, it should be really interesting.
I want to get it shooting decently, Get all the information needed, work up ballistic solutions with software and see what it will do.
I just had a few things I needed to buy before I got started, sizing dies , Lube, expanders, compressors, powder and paper. This place has proved to be a great archive of information and I was able to figure out just about everything I need it in one source.

[semtav]

The free bore is difficult to get an accurate measurement but I’m somewhere in the neighborhood of .320, so I’ve got a decent idea where to start with my seating depth.


With that much freebore, I would start completely over in your thinking.

forget about a GG bullet with any bore riding characteristics.

And forget about paperpatching with anything but a Patched to Groove Dia Bullet

Start out by measuring the inside dia of a fired shell, and the dia of your freebore.

Then use the smaller of the two measurements for the dia of your bullet.

If your internal case measurement is larger than the freebore, will have to resize your brass slightly

If your case is smaller than the freebore, that is all can load in the case so you have to use that. ( you may be able to go slightly larger because of springback of the case walls)



If using a GG bullet, get one that has that dia on a land ahead of the last Grease Groove or the nose section starts out at that dia.

If using a PP bullet, patch it to that dia

I'll try to get a pic of the type of bullet I am talking about.

[jconley]

All this fuss and you haven't even shot it yet?

I’ve had it for many years, I’ve shot it countless times.

[Lead pot]

The .45-120/3-1/4" with a free bore chamber can be a head scratcher, I been down that path :D but it can shoot very well. semtav gave some good advice with the bullets patched to groove or snug to the free bore diameter, this is what I had to find to get it shooting well. Also controlling the recoil and torque will be a must thing to master.
Also match the bullet length to the twist of the rifling like Don said. But again the ogive profile even with a proper length can and will be an issue with conditions.
Enjoy the ride and keep notes. The memory chips between the ears seem to get overloaded with time. :D