Winchester 1882 tool mangling bullets

[Carrie450]

I've been battling an old Winchester reloading tool the past day and a half. It works fine until I try seating and crimping the bullet in. At that point it mangles the bullet and refuses to let it go. The extractor frees the case but the bullet is left behind tightly enough to necessitate a punch to push the bullet out.
So far I'm so lost on how to make it work properly, and am open to any ways to fix it or any sources for one that just works.
Thanks in advance.

[rick benjamin]

Can you upload a photo of the moment of mangle? Maybe there is crud corrosion that binds the bullet into the tool

[Carrie450]

I'm not home at the moment, had to get dragged out by the household.
That's about the sum of what I see going on though. It looks like a deep ring forming around the bullet ogive close to the rim, one area seeming raised almost, like the lead crushed into some pitting. It also seems like the edge of the bullet gets smeared over the mouth of the case like bad 22lr.
Here's the one I have with me, so its the only photo available until I get home.

279869279870

[kootne]

Are you using a Winchester bullet?

[Carrie450]

A bullet cast from pure lead in a Lee 44-40 bullet mold.

[onelight]

I don't think that tool flares the case mouth, so you need to find a way to flare enough for the bullet base to start.
Even a pair of needle nose . If you have a pair with rounded backs hold them closed and push them into the case mouth and turn to slightly flare against the outside of the pliers .

[MrWolf]

I don't think that tool flares the case mouth, so you need to find a way to flare enough for the bullet base to start.
Even a pair of needle nose . If you have a pair with rounded backs hold them closed and push them into the case mouth and turn to slightly flare against the outside of the pliers .

This. It looks like the bullet is being squeezed from the picture. Looking at the photo I think I can see the base of the bullet vs the rest of the brass and it is a bit smaller.

[kootne]

As a retired machinist, which I realize many are not, I would make a de-capping stem that would incorporate a flaring feature if I felt the need to flair. But also consider that if your de-capping stem is long enough to hold the case above the sizing/crimping portion of the neck you shouldn't need to flair. Those old black powder shells were meant to be reloaded with a slightly compressed volume of powder. A fired case was 1. decapped 2. recapped 3. filled with powder 4. bullet seated. The seating, neck sizing and crimping all happen at the same time, powder keeping the bullet from falling too deeply into the case.

[jrmartin1964]

A bullet cast from pure lead in a Lee 44-40 bullet mold.

There is your problem. The Winchester tools are designed to work with bullets cast from a Winchester mould. They MIGHT work with a Lyman No.427098, which is a close copy of the Winchester design... no crimp groove, and designed to be seated directly on top of a case-filling charge of black powder and crimped over the forward driving band. It is unlikely that more modern designs, with crimp grooves, will prove satisfactory in the Winchester loading tool.

Jim

[Carrie450]

Thanks Jim. That particular model seems to be discontinued unfortunately but I'll keep digging around for something similar, or maybe an original mould. I'll follow up with results when I find out.

[Larry Gibson]

kootne mentions where the problem probably lies. There was a separate decap and case mouth flaring tool that came with the Winchester and similar tools. Most of those have been lost or misplaced over the years. Do you have that decap flaring tool with the Winchester tool?

Also what diameter are you sizing the Lee bullets. That tool is probably made for .427 diameter bullets so larger diameter ones could be why they are sticking.

Here you see a decap tool I made for my 25-20 tool. I did not incorporate a "flare" on the tool as the bullet sizer sizes the bullets .256 and they just slip into the fired cases w/o a flare being needed.

279940

279941

[KCSO]

Check your bullet diameter the old tools were made for a 427 bullet and a 429-430 jams in the die.

[Carrie450]

Surprisingly it still retains the original decapping/flaring pin. It's been working reliably.
I'm so far stuck using the .429 bullets, as both my Henry and Schofield use .429 bullets.

I've considered using a chamber reamer to widen out the tool enough to play nice with the modern .429 bullets. I expect I'll probably need to see if PTG is willing to make a custom tool for that though...

I've been experimenting with other bullets too. It seems the Lee mould with its shape for the crimp groove is indeed a big part of the problem. Even a quick filing helps immensely with these issues, but I'd rather not be dealing with that much lead dust, not to mention the loss of uniformity in each bullet.

[Green Frog]

Carrie450, if you look at the end of the die, you should see a little cone projecting from it. With luck this should be usable to bell your case mouth sufficiently to start the bullet smoothly. Unfortunately, someone thought that feature was extraneous and ground it off of one of mine. :( BTW, a fair number of antique Winchester bullet moulds show up on fleaBay on a fairly regular basis. I got a 32-20 and a 38-55 mould for something like $50-75 each, which with the handles included is actually a pretty good deal. You then would have a bullet you know would work, assuming your die hasn’t been altered or damaged.

Froggie

[kootne]

Froggie, do your Winchester tools have enough cone to flare a cartridge case? Mine (32S&W, 32/20, 45/75)are rounded on too big a radius to redo case mouths. But I think there is an evolution of those tools, maybe it was done later than mine were made. The Ideal tools all seem to be made with that in mind. I will second your motion regarding getting a Winchester mold, they so far seem to have escaped some of the decimal place moving of other loading stuff.

[Carrie450]

Frogg,

Yes it has the properly formed flaring cone.
The issue though is the edge of the bullet gets deformed and stuck in the crimper stage.
I'm thinking I'll try the Old West Bullet Molds 44-40. https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/shop/ols/products/44-40-deepgroove-black-powder-double-cavity-mould

[Green Frog]

I just noticed that I was referring to the wrong tool! I thought you had the more commonly found 1894 tool. I’ll have to go back and look at the 1882 tool again before I continue to wag my froggie tongue!

The Green (but blushing red) Frog

[44magLeo]

Why not get a bolit sizedie so you can size some of yur cast to the .427 size? that won't cost much or risk damaging your tool.
Leo

[Carrie450]

For one, everywhere I looked flags the .427 size die as discontinued. They don't seem to be anywhere I can find.
Secondly, most .44 bores today use .429-.430 bores. While soft lead will bump up that difference in bore is not kind to accuracy.