Tack of the wolf 10 gauge black powder load data questions.

[Tripplebeards]

I have been searching high and low for 2 7/8” load data. I ran into to a YouTube video yesterday and never came across his load. It is 116 grains of fg and 1 5/8oz. load. The only 1 5/8oz load I ran across previously in black powder was 130 grains of fffg in a federal hull with 6700 pressure. I do have a pound of fg so I’ll have to try the ame load in a plastic federal hull as I would sure think 14 grains less of slower burning FG would be a good 500 to 800 less pressure. I guess I’ll have to order up a track of the wolf load pamphlet where the you tuber said his load came from along with a handful of brass 10 gauge shells. Anyone have the track of the wolf load data they could share?

Here the video. I got a kick out of the guy.

https://youtu.be/UhgZXoGdzHQ

Looks like the load will plenty for big Toms!

[missionary5155]

Now he needs to go to RB and 135 grains of 2F Goex if he thinks that rattles the teeth.

[megasupermagnum]

There is a lot more variation in pressure with blackpowder than most realize. It is not enough to say Fg is slower than FFFg. Swiss Fg could produce higher pressure than Goex FFg. Swiss "120 gr" could actually weigh 125 grains, and Goex "120 gr" could weigh 115 grains. When people talk blackpowder, they are talking volume as thrown by a powder measure.

Anyway, I found a chart of low pressure 10 gauge loads. You can see Goex Old Eynsford 1 1/2 Fg is a higher pressure than Goex (standard red can) 1 Fg, all else equal. From what I can tell, the old traditional blackpowder cartridge 10 gauge loads were 1 1/2 or 1 5/8 oz loads with 4 or 4 1/2 drams of powder. There were plenty of variations, but that seems to be a popular area. 4 drams is about 110 gr, 4 1/2 is about 120 gr.

In the muzzleloader world, this would be called a square load. A powder measure set to 120 gr would drop about 120 grains of powder, and ballpark 1 1/2 to 1 5/8 oz of shot. This is a good and simple way to load muzzleloaders, as you only have to have one measure, or if adjustable, you don't have to mess with it. 117 gr powder and 1 1/4 oz of shot like listed in the chart below is just silly. I bet that load patterns like garbage. I like 100 gr powder, and 100 gr volume shot in my new shotgun, and I plan on using 100 gr powder and 1 5/8 oz #6 shot for turkey this year. Muzzleloaders made before about the civil war were all cylinder bore. Choke wasn't invented until around that time. Let me tell you, trying to get a cylinder bore to pattern for turkeys is plenty of work, but it feels good when you get there. Load changes make huge differences in a cylinder bore, where as a choked barrel is much more forgiving. What almost everyone across the board finds, choke or not, is that to get better patterns you use more shot by volume, than powder. 120 gr of powder and 1 5/8 of shot doesn't pattern great for me, or most anyone else. Reduce the powder to 100 gr, and patterns go from "Eh, wish it were better", to very good. Changes in your loads do not have a huge effect on pressure like they do with smokeless. That is the beauty of blackpowder. The stuff is as idiot proof as you will ever get.

I'd say keep powder in the 80 to 110 grain range, and see how much shot you need. If your barrels are choked full and fuller, you might be surprised by the patterns only 1 3/8 oz do at 30 yards. If trying to push the range out a bit, 35 or 40 yards, then you will likely need to go up more.


https://i.ibb.co/RTFVrW6/Blackpowder-for-Shotshells-3.jpg

[Cap'n Morgan]

Reduce the powder to 100 gr, and patterns go from "Eh, wish it were better", to very good

I've read the book "The Gun and Its Development" by W.W. Greener. He mentions competitions with muzzleloaders before the invention of choke. The goal was to get the largest number of shot in a given load inside a given circle. The way to produce a winning load was to reduce the amount of powder to the point where the shot could barely make it to the target.

[Tripplebeards]

There is a lot more variation in pressure with blackpowder than most realize. It is not enough to say Fg is slower than FFFg. Swiss Fg could produce higher pressure than Goex FFg. Swiss "120 gr" could actually weigh 125 grains, and Goex "120 gr" could weigh 115 grains. When people talk blackpowder, they are talking volume as thrown by a powder measure.

Anyway, I found a chart of low pressure 10 gauge loads. You can see Goex Old Eynsford 1 1/2 Fg is a higher pressure than Goex (standard red can) 1 Fg, all else equal. From what I can tell, the old traditional blackpowder cartridge 10 gauge loads were 1 1/2 or 1 5/8 oz loads with 4 or 4 1/2 drams of powder. There were plenty of variations, but that seems to be a popular area. 4 drams is about 110 gr, 4 1/2 is about 120 gr.

In the muzzleloader world, this would be called a square load. A powder measure set to 120 gr would drop about 120 grains of powder, and ballpark 1 1/2 to 1 5/8 oz of shot. This is a good and simple way to load muzzleloaders, as you only have to have one measure, or if adjustable, you don't have to mess with it. 117 gr powder and 1 1/4 oz of shot like listed in the chart below is just silly. I bet that load patterns like garbage. I like 100 gr powder, and 100 gr volume shot in my new shotgun, and I plan on using 100 gr powder and 1 5/8 oz #6 shot for turkey this year. Muzzleloaders made before about the civil war were all cylinder bore. Choke wasn't invented until around that time. Let me tell you, trying to get a cylinder bore to pattern for turkeys is plenty of work, but it feels good when you get there. Load changes make huge differences in a cylinder bore, where as a choked barrel is much more forgiving. What almost everyone across the board finds, choke or not, is that to get better patterns you use more shot by volume, than powder. 120 gr of powder and 1 5/8 of shot doesn't pattern great for me, or most anyone else. Reduce the powder to 100 gr, and patterns go from "Eh, wish it were better", to very good. Changes in your loads do not have a huge effect on pressure like they do with smokeless. That is the beauty of blackpowder. The stuff is as idiot proof as you will ever get.

I'd say keep powder in the 80 to 110 grain range, and see how much shot you need. If your barrels are choked full and fuller, you might be surprised by the patterns only 1 3/8 oz do at 30 yards. If trying to push the range out a bit, 35 or 40 yards, then you will likely need to go up more.


https://i.ibb.co/RTFVrW6/Blackpowder-for-Shotshells-3.jpg



Thanks for heads up with powder charges. I talked to the guy who posted the YouTube video. He said he tried 116 grains of 1FG and then he though he tried 100 grains. I found this load at track of the wolf. I was just worried I’d I didn’t put enough powder in the barrel vs shot I’d get high pressured loads. Doesn’t sound like it happened with black powder like it does with smokeless.

https://i.imgur.com/LFhNp4U.png

If you were still living in your old state I would have drove over for help.


Here are loose black powders to try.

https://i.imgur.com/h9R9qXD.jpg


Any suggestion from one Versus the other? I figured I’d stay with FG. Maybe try a 100 grain loads out of each barrel with all powders with 1 5/8oz of BPI nickel plated #6’s. I was planning on using my spent RST shells and folding the existing 6 point crimp over. I will try “ the straw” trick of sliding over my 209 primers to firmly sea5 them on my hulls till I order sone brass hulls from track of the wolf. I saw a 130 grain fffg powder load and figured it looked like a pretty heavy charge to me. I’d rather stick around that 100 grain charge to keep pressures lower.

[megasupermagnum]

Muzzleloaders are, if anything, more black art than science. Often scientific results are scoffed at in the traditional muzzleloading community as mistakes, or unimportant.

With that said, what I personally would do, I would start with that dupont Fg. I would use only a single type of wad, a 10 gauge nitro card. I would figure out how many I needed to take up the space. Nobody has good results with those fiber "c" wads. It seems the idea of cushioning the shot is a false idea. There is no minimum amount of powder, only what is needed to get the velocity needed to kill a turkey. Are your RST hulls primer pockets too loose to fit your 209 primers? I'm not familiar with the straw trick. One thing you can do is buy the BPI primer pocket tool, link listed below. It tightens up the primer pocket so you can accept smaller 209's. The beauty of muzzleloaders, is that every single shot is handloaded on the spot. It would help you to bring your loader to the range with you, and load that way. I've tried loading smokeless ammo at the range, and found it a PITA. Blackpowder is far easier, as everything can be loaded by volume. All you would need is a press, primed hulls, powder, wads, shot, and an adjustable powder measure. A short rod to load the hulls is handy.



https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Universal-Primer-Pocket-Conditioner-10ga-410/productinfo/0740010/

[Tripplebeards]

The primers used in the RST shells are a hair bigger than the 209’s. I was given a tip from a guy on parkerguns forum to slide a piece of straw over a 209 primer before seating them since I don’t own a primer peener. Sounds like it was a pretty common trick some of the guys do. I’ll have to order some brass shells. I do have sone Remington, Winchester, and federal casings in 3.5” I saved from my gold. I just don’t want to cut them down so I can save them for my browning. I might order a primer peener with my brass casings.

These are the wads I have coming today.

https://i.imgur.com/tAMdu0q.jpg


I’m guessing you are telling me the thick wads to the left are the ones no one has good luck with? So use the wad to right as a nitro card and just shot on top and call it a load?

I have some cardboard over shot cards along with some x10x wad, and various plastic shot cups a member here was generous enough to send me. Figured the plastic stuff I’ll use for my 3.5” gold.

[megasupermagnum]

Yes, use the right wads. The left wads always seem to produce poor patterns. Just stack as many right wads as you need to take up the space, and call it good. You can try some plastic wads if you wish. Maybe they will pattern better, maybe not.

[longbow]

No experience with 10 ga. BP here but in the past I had a Pedersoli 12 ga. I wish I still had but another victim of my need for money to go to school back in the 70's...

In any case, I tried Fg, FFg and FFFG and stuck with the latter. I don't recall which brand but Curtis and Harvey, and Goex were what was mostly available to me back then. I used FFFg in all my muzzleloaders because even in .58 with a Minie FFg didn't burn clean or completely. Even in my .45-70 I ran FFFg because I got better performance and cleaner burning than FFg.

Might depend on brand as to where the bore size for FFg fits better but I had been told anything over .50 cal. muzzleloader should use FFg.

Goex seemed to perform much better than Curtis and Harvey in any given granulation, for me anyway.

FFFg might be a bit fast for 10 ga. but I have to think that Fg is a bit slow. Again, maybe in a different brand it would perform better than my experience indicates.

I'll be interested in your results for sure. I have an 1881 W. C. & Son 10 ga. Damascus barrels shotgun that needs much TLC but may be a shooter one day. Being Damascus it will be BP only... if it is deemed to be shootable.

Looking forward to your load development!

Longbow

[Tripplebeards]

I just loaded with the lee for the first time. Crimping with it is rotten. I will have to buy a roll crimper. I loaded up 100 grain FG with 1 5/8oz of #6 nickel plated shot and also 116 grain/1 5/8oz square load to try. I loaded a pair with 2 nitro cards, a pair with one and a half nitro cards, and then a pair with one nitro card. I skipped using the fiber wads per recommendation. I will see how each load patterns. I ended up pulling the crimps back out and cutting them off. I then glued an overshot card with hot glue over my loads. I will probably end up shooting them tomorrow. Gonna order some brass casings from track of the wolf as well.

https://i.imgur.com/zDUK1yc.jpg


Here are the crimps I first tried with the lee loader and then removed.

https://i.imgur.com/8U6U88k.jpg

[PennStateCarry]

What were you results, Tripplebeards? I used the brass shells from Track and got some decent patterns using 90 grains of FFG and 1.35 ounces of #6. It's incredibly mild. Here's the pattern at 30
282965

[Jkrem]

283478

[Tripplebeards]

What were you results, Tripplebeards? I used the brass shells from Track and got some decent patterns using 90 grains of FFG and 1.35 ounces of #6. It's incredibly mild. Here's the pattern at 30
282965


You can see my patterns and 1st turkey with the gun and load here…

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?403170-Looking-for-black-powder-low-pressure-load-data-for-my-10-gauge/page4

I ended up up buying a quad pin roller but still use the lee loader for every other step.

These are some 10 gauge 3.5” loads I used in my browning gold I roll crimped.


https://i.imgur.com/XImpbnf.jpg


And my first try at roll crimping a 2 7/8”

https://i.imgur.com/61DBxvj.jpg

[toot]

is PYRODEX CARTRIDGE POWDER, safe to use as a shotgun load in 10, 12 & 16 gauge, plastic& full brass hulls, in RABBIT EARED DBL hammer DASMASICS barreled guns. if so what would the loads be? thanking you.

[toot]

forgot the 10 gauge hulls are 2-7/8- the 12 gauge are 2-1/2 and 16 - 2-1/2. inches.

[RMc]

Online source of data listed above:

Article by Ross Seyfried on black powder and low pressure smokeless shotshell loading

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/blackpowder-shotshell-loading/361504

[toot]

RNc, thanks man. that site is the cat's meow. yes that is what I was looking for. thanking you. toot.

[Markopolo]

You can see my patterns and 1st turkey with the gun and load here…

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?403170-Looking-for-black-powder-low-pressure-load-data-for-my-10-gauge/page4

I ended up up buying a quad pin roller but still use the lee loader for every other step.

These are some 10 gauge 3.5” loads I used in my browning gold I roll crimped.


https://i.imgur.com/XImpbnf.jpg


And my first try at roll crimping a 2 7/8”

https://i.imgur.com/61DBxvj.jpg

Looks like a good crimp to me!!!

[Tripplebeards]

I think I’m gonna be brave and eventually put a little bit more of a heavier payload in with that same hundred grain FG load and see if I can get a better pattern. The one in 5/8oz load has an OK patten n the left barrel but the right I can’t get more than 15/17 pellets in a turkey head target at 25 yards. I want to try a 1 7/8 oz payload and 2 oz. I’m guessing I’m WAY under pressure using real black in that old Damascus gun with my current load which is under the square load listed at track of the wolf. The square load they have listed is 4.5 drams of FG and 1 5/8oz of shot. My load is 100 grains of Fg and 1 5/8oz which is about 4 drams of powder. I tried 116 grains with the same load. It had more recoil and pattern opened up quite a bit. Figured I’d try the heavier 1 7/8 and 2oz loads with maybe 90/95/ and 100 grains checking for pressur signs along the way and see how they pattern. Either that or I’m going to try using plastic shot cups and inspect and clean my barrel after each test shot to see if I have any plastic mess or build up. I’ve shot RST loads through it with plastic shot cups and have had ZERO residual left from the plastic shot cups. I always Figured maybe it’s safer to use plastic shot cups because it will keep the shot inside the plastic cup while it’s traveling through the barrel (till it gets to the choke) and not get caught or snagged on the pitting while traveling through the barrels?