How do the best shooters in the World resize their brass for maximum accuracy?

[M-Tecs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaqg4sJvg24

[BigAlofPa.]

I have always full length sized. Good post.

[Winger Ed.]

I tried neck sizing for awhile, and had a little bit of an issue with sticky chambering, and went away from it.

I got small base dies for the M1A, Garand, and rat gun, but really can't tell any difference with them and standard.

[rbuck351]

Beats me, I'm not one of them.

[onelight]

Well I am no target shooter but that video was a surprise to me I thought all those guys neck sized .
Learned something new.
Thanks for posting it.

[Three44s]

Bolt guns: Lee collet die when available.

In 7 mm TCU I have the Redding body and bushing neck sizer dies but have not used them yet.

In 300 RUM I have a custom Lee Collet die and the Redding body die.

You can say you full length size your bench and F-class loads but when you leave out the fact that (likely) your FL die is custom to your rifle, an off the shelf mass produced FL die is going to have some short comings IMO!

Three44s

[Driver man]

Full length size if you have a perfect chamber etc. I neck size and get better accuracy in my revolvers and military . Full length size in my very tight target 308

[trails4u]

I do wonder about the differences in equipment. I know for my own experiences, with my Tikka T3, neck sizing does seem to improve groups albeit slightly. Are these guys using custom dies? Custom chambers? Chambers and dies made from the same reamers? Most of us don't have access to that level, so I guess I get it for the top shooters in the world, but does it apply to the rest of us trying to shoot factory guns to the best of their abilities? Don't have answers......just questions. But I will continue to neck size for my Tikka...proof is on the paper and in the freezer.

[Winger Ed.]

You can say you full length size your bench and F-class loads but when you leave out the fact that (likely) your FL die is custom to your rifle,

At that level of the game,
I'd suspect a bunch of them have the reloading die cut right after the custom barrel had its chamber cut-- and with the same reamer.

[M-Tecs]

At that level of the game,
I'd suspect a bunch of them have the reloading die cut right after the custom barrel had its chamber cut-- and with the same reamer.

Doesn't work that way. The die would be nothing more than a second chamber. Finishing reamer won't cut a resize die. Sizing die reamers are cut undersize. The die reamer is normally .003" or 004" undersize.

[Iowa Fox]

I started full length sizing in the late 60s. After about the forth loading with my pound in Lee loader I couldn't close the bolt so I knew I had to do something different. I get a chuckle out of Erik Cotinas video, he puts a lot of humor into it. The guys are right on full length sizing. About .002 is the key.

[Half Dog]

My guess is that they don’t use factory rifles or Lee dies.

[lotech]

I full-length size for ARs. For bolt-actions, I size enough so that the bolt closes on a loaded cartridge with slight resistance. This can help considerably with case life. After several loadings, a full-length size will usually be necessary, then you can go back to partial sizing. As for accuracy, I've never seen a difference between partial sizing and full-length sizing. I've used just about every maker's dies including Lee. A good die is a good die regardless of the manufacturer.

[jmorris]

Yeah, full length size with dies made for the chamber, brass must be turned and things are so tight that one can fire, replace the primer, add powder charge and fire the case several time without even sizing at all. Even when resizing there is so little movement occurring that they use tiny little presses to do the sizing.

The details that are not shown by blanket statements.

[M-Tecs]

20 years ago Abor press dies fell out of favor with the benchrest crowd. Today the vast majority are using press mounted dies. Same for the Long range NRA, F-Class, Palma and PRS type shooters it's 99% press mounted with a large percentage using progressive's.

For factory dies Redding neck bushing dies are by far the most common. Forester also have a following as do a variety of Custom dies. These dies match the chambers used for these types of competitions not the other way around. If you want the true custom die makers will build dies to your chamber from the chamber print or a fired case.

That being said I personally know at least a half dozen National Champions that do not use “Pure Custom” dies. They use Redding neck bushing or a off the self custom dies like the Whidden's that are dimensioned so the "Die Dimensions well-matched to PT&G reamers used for match chambers". I know two that use true custom dies that are built to their chamber specs. They have about $600 into their FL sizing die. They are Warner Tool FL dies. The Whiddens are more cost effective but I don't know anyone using them.

Good example here and John Whiddens thoughts:

https://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-reviews/whidden-gunworks-sizing-dies-and-micrometer-seaters/

John Whidden Talks about Sizers, Seaters, and Expanders

Whidden Gunworks Sizing Die SeaterThere are two sides to our die business. First we are stocking dies in many calibers that are of interest to those who visit this website (such as the 6PPC, 6mm Dasher, 6.5×47 Lapua, .260 Rem, 7mm Shehane, .308 Winchester). These dies are a good fit to the “match chamber” reamers and very few people with these calibers should have to have “Pure Custom” dies made. We have both sizers and micrometer-top seaters ready to go for the many cartridge types listed above. The sizer dies will include a shoulder datum collar that makes it easy to measure shoulder “bump” during the full-length sizing process. This is important to control headspace precisely.

On the “Pure Custom” side, we have a huge amount of flexibility. We can make one-of-a-kind sizers and seaters for wildcats in a short period of time and at an excellent price. We can work with the customer to make full-length sizers, neck sizers, shoulder bump dies, small base dies, or most anything else they can need. We can of course provide micrometer-top seaters for these cartridges as well. We can make non-bushing sizers with specific neck inside diameters tailored to customer specifications.

We will also be offering custom-sized expanders. These expanders will fit our dies as well as Redding dies. Our tapered expanders will be available in .0005” (one-half thousandth) increments for the common calibers. In our shop we have had excellent results using expanders in the dies as long as the expanders provided the correct amount of neck tension and didn’t overwork the brass. Expanders have gotten a bad reputation in recent years but we find them to be excellent tools when the same precision is applied to their use that careful handloaders apply to the rest of their process. Expanders can be most valuable for those who choose not to neck-turn their brass (because the expander pushes neckwall variations to the outside).

One last thing — many gunsmiths with their own wildcats (or “specialty” chambers) have asked us to provide dies for their customers. We gladly do batches of custom dies and encourage gunsmiths to contact us. — John Whidden

For more information visit WhiddenGunworks.com or call (229) 686-1911.

[onelight]

Doesn't work that way. The die would be nothing more than a second chamber. Finishing reamer won't cut a resize die. Sizing die reamers are cut undersize. The die reamer is normally .003" or 004" undersize.
Yup a couple of them said they size .002 under chamber size .

[Winger Ed.]

Doesn't work that way. The die would be nothing more than a second chamber. Finishing reamer won't cut a resize die. Sizing die reamers are cut undersize. The die reamer is normally .003" or 004" undersize.

That selling point may have been one of those flash in the pan ideas that didn't catch on.

Years ago, I was checking into getting a high end bench rest rifle built.
That's how I learned how horribly expensive they can be too.
One or more of the builders advertised they made the sizing die at the same time they made/fitted the barrel.

With Hornady and others offering custom die services, I guess the concept of the barrel maker doing it went away.

[M-Tecs]

That selling point may have been one of those flash in the pan ideas that didn't catch on.

Years ago, I was checking into getting a high end bench rest rifle built.
That's how I learned how horribly expensive they can be too.
One or more of the builders advertised they made the sizing die at the same time they made/fitted the barrel.

With Hornady and others offering custom die services, I guess the concept of the barrel maker doing it went away.

There are a couple of steels alloys that shrink when heat treated. It sometimes works and sometimes the shrinkage is not enough. That was most for the home builders.

I believe what your are referring to is these makers would have a resizing die reamer made with the chamber reamer. It was a two reamer set That was very common. Not sure how common it still is. PTG doesn't offer that as a standard service anymore.

[M-Tecs]

Yup a couple of them said they sizer .002 under chamber size .

Warner Tool is the tightest I am aware of. https://www.warner-tool.com/reloading-dies/

"WTC Dies are made from samples of your fired brass to full length size only .001 to .0015″ on the body diameter and just enough on the necks to get 30, 40, or even 50 reloads from your brass (neck annealing required)."

Keep in mind that is on fired brass that has some spring back. The issue of case life is very doable with mild loads. Warmer loads the primer pock goes first and most of the long range competitors tend to run warmer loads since that game is mostly won or lost on wind reading or lack of wind reading abilitily.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGtnN8TF4VQ&t=112s

[Murphy]

I have RCBS Precision Case Mic's for my rifles. I go with .002 thousandths and a small base sizer. It's been working for me for over 20 years. I'm not a precision shooter, but I like knowing I have the most precision cartridge I can get in the rifle I'm using.

My go to hunting rifle is a Remington Model 7 in 7-08 I bought back in the late 90's. Once I found 'The Load' for it, I loaded up a 100 round lot. That rifle has never missed, I do. Year after year, when I prepare for deer season I head to the range. I make sure the bore is clean, paste a 1" target dot at a 100 yards and sit down at the bench and take the shot. Year after year, it's always did what I asked and scored a hit on the dot.

Erik Cotinas, he's a great one to watch. I wish more Youtube videos were as well done as his.


Murphy

[robg]

i full length size ,i want my loads to work in every firearm in that calibre.i dont think i shoot well enough to notice any difference to neck sizing.

[HangFireW8]

FL vs PFL vs NK argument is a canard.

What matters is consistant bullet pull, runout and chamber self-centering.

If you can control that to the gun's best liking, then you can achieve optimal accuracy for the case sizing variable.

Case life is a separate subject.

[Old Caster]

I won the 2010 F class match shooting at the Benchrest club near St. Louis with a factory Kimber tactical .308. When I started one of the Benchrest guys gave me a bunch of heads ups and he said he didn't know if some of them helped or not but didn't want to take a chance if it didn't and proving the difference would take too much time and bullets.

With a lot of experimenting I found that 155 grain Bergers were the best which surprised me because first I used every brand of 168 grain bullets I could find and while the Bergers were way better at 600 yards but not noticeably better at 100 and I thought even a little bit worse .

I used a Wilson die and press. The dies have changeable sizes for just sizing the neck and I chose .002 smaller than a case fired in my rifle and didn't try anything else because it worked so well. I used suggested Lapua cases because they didn't need the necks turned. My mic told me these were all very close to the same. Most of the Br guys used Winchester and turned the necks I think because they were a lot cheaper.

When loading a case it was put in a die and the die was put under the press and pushed down and then I primed with a simple Lee hand tool with Federal match primers. I had to use a shoulder size tool about every 10 shots because it would start to get tight in the chamber.

The powder was always weighed and I dropped them with a powder measure and then finished with a home made powder dripper. Powder was installed through a small hole that was inserted into a funnel and then buzzed with a device made from a hair dryer to make the powder fall through at the same rate every time so it would have the same height when compressed. I made different size holes for different powders and wanted about 10 seconds to full.

The bullets are then seated with a die where the die is pushed down with the same press and it is so precision that the directions that came with the die said to never remove the shaft in the die to keep it from wearing out and being a perfect fit and was adjustable according to bullet depth about .0005. I did at first load some on my 550 with a full length sizing die and they were not even close to being as accurate.

One more step which I think was of utmost importance was annealing the case neck down a little into the shoulder every time they were shot. Sometimes I didn't anneal them every time and paid for it with less accuracy. This is of utmost importance because it makes the neck tension as close to identical every time that is possible. Doing all this kept my groups sub moa just about all the time, sometimes even moving a few inches to correct for the wind.
All of the guys with BR guns with special rests did not do as well even though they wouldn't have counted anyway because at that time it had to be shot from a bi-pod with .223 or .308 caliber and they were all using calibers with modified case lengths.

I would say that experimentation and using the best dies available is what makes you shoot the best. Annealing is next and turning necks if you don't use quality cases and from there it also depends on which powder and bullet works best for you, plus how much neck tension, OAL and load.

[Iowa Fox]

I found for my jacketed purposes a Redding body die and the Lee collet neck sizing die work very well. A lot of the 1000 yard guys are using the same combo Simple to use and the dies don't cost an arm and a leg. I have full length Redding s dies but the body and collet die do a better job for me. I just had a new Brux barrel spun up in a new chambering for me so I ordered a new collet die and Redding body die. On the very first piece of brass I could feel something was hoaky. Sure enough I found they shortened the collet. One of the great features of the collet neck sizer is that if you gave the case about 4 squeezes rotating the case it would uniform neck wall thickness. That"s out the window now with their new die. I contacted them twice about making me a collet to the original length or leave one long and I will finish it. I'm willing to pay the price as a custom but they have arched their back no way. I can't find a used old style anyplace. Collets are a 9 dollar part at the dealers but they are all short new style. I'm thinking about sending lathsmith a message to see if its something he might consider making.

If your using a old style collet die keep them greased up well because they are going to be like the round tray priming tools. You'll very get another one.

[metricmonkeywrench]

Ummm.... one case at a time?:kidding:

[1hole]

Long ago, far away and in a different life, I got interested in some gunsmithing, including cutting chambers. I don't know if it's still true but back then reamers from Brownell's came as "roughing" and "finishing"; both types were fine tools.

Roughing reamers were intended to cut most of a new chamber but a tad smaller than what the finish reamers would cut. Some bright guys bought barrels several inches longer than would be needed on the rifle, then the cut-off bits could be rough reamed into very snug fitting custom FL (and/or neck) sizers for use in arbor presses.

IIRC, THAT was how the now popular FL sizing to 2 thou undersize in every dimension was done back then; it sure wasn't just adjusting standard FL dies to set the shoulders back 2 thou!

[1hole]

My guess is that they don’t use factory rifles or Lee dies.

You can bet on that. And they don't use RCBS, Hornady, etc. dies either.

Unchambered custom barrels alone often cost more than most factory rifles. Then the barrels will need expensive things to fit into - custom actions, triggers, scope mounts/rings/glass. Precise assembly and stock work are also required and that can be a tad costly too. Few shooters - if any - are going to use any brand of off-the-shelf SAMMI specification dies to reload for such rifles.

But fortunately, when we're reloading for our off-the-shelf firearms, all of our off-the-shelf die brands do quite well for people who know what they're doing. That's why they have all happily lasted for so long in the local gun store and mail order market.

[mikequaintance]

Well I am no target shooter but that video was a surprise to me I thought all those guys neck sized .
Learned something new.
Thanks for posting it.I know a half dozen IBSC competors and all of them necksize. While I don't compete myself, I have been necksizing for 30 years and have not seen any reason to change that.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

[Shawlerbrook]

For hunting accuracy and absolute chambering and extraction, full length resizing only. Only looking for minute of deer accuracy here.

[dverna]

For hunting accuracy and absolute chambering and extraction, full length resizing only. Only looking for minute of deer accuracy here.

My "needs" lie somewhere between MOD (Minute of Deer) and MOB (Minute of Bug). My "wants" are MOB. I have never shot at 600+ yards and it looks like I never will.

It is fascinating to see what the "real" shooters are doing to achieve optimum accuracy. Interestingly, there are different opinions and ways to achieve accuracy levels that I suspect would be wasted on 98% of us....by that I mean if I were to shoot a 1/4 MOA gun/ammo I am not good enough to do it. Crafting ammunition capable of that performance and investing in a suitable platform is beyond my abilities as a shooter and I am not too shabby a rifle shot for a hillbilly.

I admire those who can quantify that doing X reduces groups by .2" from doing Y. I would have to shoot a lot of groups to make that evaluation. I have never wrung a hunting rifle out to that degree. Once I get to about 1.25 MOA I stop the search. I have been able to get there without hours of case prep and using factory FL dies. Good enough is good enough. My limit is 400 yards for the .308's and that will get the job done on deer.

For the .223 varmint guns, I go for 3/4 MOA and call it good. That gives me 2" at 250 yards and a miss on a varmint is not the end of world. BTW, wind is more of an issue for me than accuracy of the ammo. I would rather have one load that does 3/4 MOA in both guns than two loads that do .5 MOA in each. KISS

[Three44s]

My old school Lee Collet dies serve me very well.

My gig is coyotes but my goal is minute of squirrel. A coyote is duck soup with a fly shooter and I know I screwed up when I miss.

My FL dies are there when cases start to tighten up and the big game rifles/cartridges get FL’ed for that hunting but for load development it’s still the collet die if I have one in that cartridge.

For the 300 RUM I have acquired a used custom Lee Collet die and the touted Redding Body Die. I have not tried those yet. My nephew is set to break them in for his 300 RUM before I will likely get to them.

To say that all competitors FL and therefore should we mere mortals is confusing and not relevant when they are shooting rifles and working their brass with dies we will only read about, if that.

I don’t drive a Mazzaratty, it’s Ford, Chevy and Dodge for me?

My Rems and Savages running .2” to .4+” stoked with handloads crafted with the Lee Collet dies is just dandy by me!

Three44s

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I've been using Redding Competition shellholders to build in the .002 full-length sizing fit for a very long time. Hunting ammunition is always run through the rifle for function before taking it to the field. I do use a Lee Collet Die or the Redding Bushing dies (both full-length and neck-size) for .308 and .223. For moderate loads, cases that chamber easily after firing, I do neck-size using a backed out full-length die. All my loading involves a separate neck expansion step. I anneal frequently, every one to three firings, but I do have a fancy neck annealer. A little extra care turns my 'brush gun' Savage 99's into good 300 yard plus hunting rifles. Case life in my Savage 99 308's is about 10 firings with 45 grains RL15 and 165 gr Partition, Much more with 18grs 5744 and 190 boolit. My full-length sizing has been with RCBS, Lee and Redding full-length bushing die with not noticable accuracy difference, MOA at 200 yards on the good days(no wind).