First PPB shooting

[Claudius]

Hi all, this is my first attempt shooting PP bullets at 200 meters, 75gn swiss nr.4, no droptube, no compression, dry wrapping with Onion Skin paper. The bullet is a double diameter from a project by Arnie Seitz, it's a Lyman #2 alloy, the rifle is a Pedersoli Sharps "Q". The weather was windy with strong gust winds. The next time I'll try using a slightly thicker paper, just to chamber the cartridge with more pressure. Any suggestion is welcome.

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[DHDeal]

Maybe a different alloy? I never ventured far away from the binary alloys and personally see no need to. For my PP bullets I stay at 16/1 with a little testing with an alloy that had to contain some antimony. That particular alloy couldn't have had much antimony, but it was off in weight by a small amount and was colored differently. I don't remember there being any issues with accuracy but I remelted them as to not have something "different" sitting around. They made fine revolver bullets.

[JKR]

Interesting bullet. What is the measurement of the base diameter?
Did you fire those ten shots as one group or were you making sight changes as you shot? The affects of the wind are obvious.
I’ve also just started paper patching. I’m enjoying it immensely.
JKR

[Claudius]

Interesting bullet. What is the measurement of the base diameter?
Did you fire those ten shots as one group or were you making sight changes as you shot? The affects of the wind are obvious.
I’ve also just started paper patching. I’m enjoying it immensely.
JKR

The base is .452", the body is .443". The last 2 shots I was aiming off the center to the right to compensate the wind. At the moment I'll stay with the Lyman #2 alloy because I had very good results with normal GG bullets, just to see if they will expand correctly. These double diameter PP bullets are 510gn. Yes, I'm enjoying it too!

[GregLaROCHE]

Instead of thicker paper, could you do a third wrap?

[MichaelR]

Since you’re not compressing, you might not want to get the bullet too snug in the bore because you can change the bullet seating depth when you push a tight bullet into the bore.

[Claudius]

Since you’re not compressing, you might not want to get the bullet too snug in the bore because you can change the bullet seating depth when you push a tight bullet into the bore.

Very interesting observation, the bullets were not too snug in the bore, but some were. So another question: is it preferable a snug bullet in the bore, or not? The next lot of cartridges I prepared in the meantime are loaded with 80gn and compressed for about 2mm, but I have to decide for this snug aspect using a thicker o thinner paper. Thanks!

[rfd]

The usual suspects - dual diameter slick, the multi alloy used rather than 1:16 tin:lead, not compacting the powder (no drop tube or vibrator), and lack of at least a bit of compression. Starting off with good known components loading process would probably be the better way of getting yer feet in the PPB Way. Wait for a far more calmer wind day helps heaps, too. ;)

[Claudius]

Hi rfd, it was a starting point just to see the differences with more and experimented loading processes. At this moment I prepared a second lot of cartridges that I described in my previous message, but I'm undecided for a tighter or looser PP bullet into the bore.

[rfd]

For me, and probably most others, the best fit of the PPB to the bore is "snug but always easy to insert and extract before and after firing". Yer bore dimensions will dictate the PPB build. Also not mentioned is fouling control - extremely important!

[Claudius]

Rfd, thank you very much for your advices. Regarding the fouling control, I'm using a Delrin rod by Beltfed (Arnie Seitz), a wet patch (just water) followed by a bronze brush, then a dry patch.
My PPB was designed to fit my first Pedersoli Sharps "Q" (the rifle I use for my first target in the photo), it fits perfectly into the bore, like a glove. But in my second Pedersoli Sharps Competition the PPB prepared with the same Onion Skin paper you have to push to chamber it properly. So I switched to the white Seth Cole paper, but the PPB fits just a bit looser into the bore.

[beltfed]

Claudio,
I note you are using One wet patch, bronze brush, then dry patch.
Try TWO wet patches, then dry patch.
That works well for me.
Arnoldo

[Claudius]

Grazie Arnoldo I'll let you know what happens with your fantastic DDEPP! :Bright idea:

[GregLaROCHE]

Is it wrong to put a slight taper crimp on a PPB?

[rfd]

Is it wrong to put a slight taper crimp on a PPB?

Depends on what's meant by "taper crimp" and if any "crimp" is needed at all - and why.

I load fire formed brass and a slight *squeeze* of the case mouth is required to keep the PPB from falling out if turned upside down.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaWbpStoEvA

[Claudius]

I don't want any crimping on my BPCRs because I had bad results (larger groupings). Also the looser PPB in the case allows me to change the bullet type (different weight, different paper, etc.).

[rfd]

It's not "crimping", it's squeezing to keep the PPB from falling out. The PPB will twist 'round in the case, it can be twisted out of the case, it can be twisted back into the case, all with no damage to the paper patching ... and when in the case, it will not fall out if turned upside down. I use a Lyman taper crimp die, but other dies can be used or modified for a case mouth squeeze.

Of course, you don't need to do anything, you can have a wobbly PPB in a case and insert it all into the chamber as if it was the breech load that it is - just make sure the PPB is snug in the rifling so it won't separate from the case or create distance 'tween the wad.

I think you'll probably find that the case mouth squeeze is the better, safer way to go. To each their own.

[Claudius]

I have this one: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1011239733
Maybe I don't know how to use it, but I'm still cautious using it. "Snug" is the right word for me at this moment, other results will follow, and I have a lot of work to do with 2 Pedersoli Sharps with slightly different chambers and barrels.
Anyway my DDEPP bullets fit very well and the wobbling in the case is not noticeable.

[rfd]

I dunno what you or others want with a PPB cartridge build, but for me I want the PPB to not fall out of the case. I don't care if it's loose in the case, and in fact I like that it is. I want to be able to pull the PPB out of the squeezed case mouth without damaging the patch paper and I want it to go in/out of the chamber easily. I also want easy chambering during shooting and I achieve that with Brent's bore gophers for fouling control.

[Lead pot]

Claudius,

What I do to get the most accuracy from my rifle is case prep. Everything uniform. Length from the front of the rim, not from the head.
Case wall thickness and chamfered.
The flash hole with Starline brass I don't find the largest from a new lot using a number bit and match the rest to it. Starline holds pretty uniform flash holes.
Inside case volume, not by weight. Weight will get you close but weigh the amount a case will hold. I use just regular salt because the crystals are pretty uniform. This will keep the compression the same.
When I prep the brass I use a taper crimp die only and size the neck with out the bullet seated to a snug diameter that will allow me to insert the bullet with out damaging the paper.
When you taper crimp the case mouth with the bullet seated in it it will change the bullet base diameter also.
All the above will hold the verticals down to a minimum baring wind changes.
When I buy brass I get a couple hundred to get the same lot and I will prep the cases and make a small mark so they don't get mixed.

The above is just my way of doing it to help me do my best, and doing my best is getting tougher all the time being 81. I need all the help I can muster up :D

Casting bullets and alloy is another issue to get the best for the load.

[Claudius]

Hi all, this is my second attempt @200 meters with my new DDEPP bullets, but the results were too bad, worse than the previous shooting session. I tried 2mm compression and 80gn load, but the grouping was much larger and I had a keyhole. The next time I'll try to use a thicker paper (Strathmore), in this way the DDEPP bullets stay less wobbling in the case and will chamber with a light pressure.

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[rfd]

Is the PPB shallow seated (.1") in the case? With a greaser chamber you want as much of the PPB into the rifling as possible.

Does the PPB fit snug into the bore? Sounds like it doesn't and I agree to increase the patch paper thickness. This may be the reason or a contributing reason for the keyhole.

How do the pieces of patch paper look after firing - nice, clean confetti or any burnt marks showing? After making the above changes, check the paper after firing.

Instead of hard Lyman #2 (antimony), casting with 16:1 lead:tin, for better slick obturation during ignition, and better bore sealing. Use light compression for starters, .060"-.125". Wipe well between shots and make sure the chamber is dry before inserting another round.

Keep at it, you'll get it!

[Edward]

What Rob said works , he"s been there done that and better !/Ed

[Claudius]

The DDEPP bullet is seated for about 1/8" in che case, so it is into the rifling. The cartridge was chambering normally, perhaps it didn't fit with a proper snug.
The paper was clean without any burnings.

Thank you guys for your advices, I'll shoot another 6 DDEPP bullets with the ticker Strathmore paper, if it doesn't work I'll try with a less harder alloy.

[rfd]

What yer trying to do is reinvent a wheel that don't need re-inventing by starting off with a cartridge that's not as appropriate as it should be. Sticking with the tried 'n' true basics of a good PPB cartridge would be the better way of getting into PPB basics, then you can mess around with components and parameters later, after you have achieved good consistent accuracy. This means using a good slick design, with dimensions appropriate for the bore and rifling twist of the barrel, cast with about a 16:1 alloy, that's sits kinda snug in the case .1", and chambers at best snug in the rifling even after some shots are taken and fouling control administered. Use a .060" LDPE single wad and maybe .060" compression. All of this is kinda important with a greaser chamber that has goodly freebore. This is for starting out and achieving consistent accuracy of at least 4MOA or thereabouts, not shotgun patterns over the target face (assuming wind variables, the shooter's eyes and trigger finger, are all taken out of the accuracy equation). That will build confidence and satisfaction, and invite the beginnings of cartridge build testing if better consistent accuracy is the goal. PM incoming ...

[Don McDowell]

Looks like your cases might not be clean as they should be especially the inside of the case mouth.
Have you given them a slight chamfer on the inside of the case mouth?
Drop the crimp of any sort. If the bullets as patched are to loose in the case, you might want to think about a full length resize, and use an expander if necessary that will expand the case mouth to .001 or slighter larger over the finished bullet diameter.
Looking at the targets, 2 things probably going on. 1st would be take a hard look at your fouling control.. Using something like a 7-1 or 10-1 water and water soluble cutting oil, dampen the patch and push two and maybe as many as 4 thru the bore with the brush, follow up with a dry patch.
Next evaluate how you're resting the rifle. If you get into position and you have to raise or lower the rifle butt for the sights to be aligned with the target then you need to adjust the height of your front rest.

[Claudius]

Hi guys, I followed your advices and I tried shooting at 100m this time. I produced a little modification in my loading process: I have "squeezed" the case neck using the Lyman taper crimp die to eliminate the bullet wobbling. It seems working good: 5 shots in the central area including 3 shots in 1 hole. I had 2 flyers, I think it was an error in the loading/patching process.
Thanks again for your advices, Robert and Arnie.

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[rfd]

Bravo Claudius! 280964

[Claudius]

Grazie Rob! :Bright idea:

[beltfed]

Good Progress, Claudio,
beltfed/arnoldo

[Claudius]

Good Progress, Claudio,
beltfed/arnoldo

Grazie caro Arnoldo <3

[martinibelgian]

I see fouling management issues here... like Don. Which could also mean that there is lead in the barrel. Cleaning the barrel well, and the next test, use a routine of 2 wet, 2 dry patches between each shot to make sure the bore is completely dry and clean for the next shot. Don't 'think' , know!
FWIW, taper crimping the case for a better bullet fit usually isn't all that much of an accuracy enhancer.

[rfd]

It's not about "taper crimping", it's about a careful and slight squeeze of the case mouth so the PPB doesn't fall out, yet can easily be pulled out and replaced. The amount of neck tension achieved is negligent with regards to accuracy.

[Claudius]

This is my first decent 9 shots grouping @200 meters with my Pedersoli Sharps "Q" 45/70, double diameter bullets (Arnie Seitz project), Lyman #2 alloy, 80gn swiss nr 4. wind 7/10 kts. It seems that these DDEPP bullets are starting to work good.

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[beltfed]

Great Progress, Claudio
beltfed/arnoldo

[Claudius]

Thanks again Arnoldo.
Just another question about wads: I'm using the tetrapak wads (diameter 12mm), and I found that 2 wads of 0.4mm each are better than one. The next time I'll use 3 tetrapak wads, total thickness 1.2mm. Another alternative are the felt wads, but never tried one.
What about the LDPE wads?

[beltfed]

Claudio,
I have been using 0.060" thick LDPE wads right along in my BPCR rifles.
I wonder if I sent you some that they would go thru your customs/mail without much trouble.????
Arnoldo

[Claudius]

It would be great, dear Arnoldo.

[rfd]

Claudio - remember, I already sent you a bunch of .460 LDPE wads along with the Jim444530E PPBs and Seth Cole paper. :)

[Claudius]

Hi Rob, thank you very much, what wonderful friends!

[Claudius]

Today I tried to shoot at the distance of 200 meters the PP bullets sent me by Rob (rfd), they were conceived for his rifle, but they fitted well in my second newer Pedersoli Sharps. .444" slick, Seth Cole "canary" paper, 529gn and 16:1 alloy, 81gn swiss 1.5f, compression 1.5mm, bullets seated at 2.9mm, LDPE wads. The first fouling shot went high, the other 4 PP bullets went grouping well, considering that these PP bullets were conceived for Rob's rifle! Wiped the bore using 2 wet patches and 2 dry. I think that both solutions, DDEPP and uniform diameter PP bullets will give me excellent results.
Thanks again for your help, dear friends.

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[rfd]

Very good, Claudio!

[flatsguide]

Claudius, good shooting on some of your targets and you are getting excellent advice as I have gotten also from the same fellows. I would look over your rifle and your sights to make sure everything is tight and secure with no loose mounting screws especially the stock mounting bolt. When you shoot how are you resting the gun. You may try to take the forend off. Please tell us what you shooting setup is.
Cheers Richard

[Claudius]

Hi Richard thank you for your advices, these are my 45/70 Pedersoli Sharps, they are identical except the stock. Everything should be tight there, but sometimes I have problems with the Pedersoli sights because they are not so well made.

I'm resting the barrel just after the forend, the stock rests on my shoulder and my hand.


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[flatsguide]

Hi Claudius, “everything should be tight there” it should but I would make sure. I would suggest to try and remove all of the human error when testing loads. Use sand bags for both the barrel rest and butt stock rest. After loading and the rifle is resting on the bags and the Year sight is flipped up use finger pressure to one side or the other on the sight staff to make sure it is the same location shot to shot. It is my opinion that heavy recoiling rifles are very sensitive to any change of pressure from shot to shot and for best accuracy the rifleman needs to make sure it is held with the same grip, cheek pressure on the stock and same pressure and location on the sandbags. I’m sure you know this but it is good to say it as it makes me more conscious of it. I would look very closely for signs of leading after cleaning each time you shoot. With the .060 LDPE wad you are probably fine but I would still check for leading no matter how small for about ten shots, after that if there is no leading I would not worry about it. So eliminate as much as possible the human error, use sand bags front and rear front sand bag about 6 or 7 inches back from the muzzle. Eliminate as much as possible problems with the rifle, make sure the screws are tight, the sights are in the same position each time, remember the finger pressure and remove the forearm stock to eliminate the possibility that is effecting the shot placement. Only after the human error and problems inherent in the rifle are eliminated can one begin to find the most accurate load for that rifle. It is a nice accomplishment when it all comes together like this:
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[Claudius]

I'm an "instinctive" shooter, I don't use any scope, just the sights you can see in the photo of my rifles. And I'm shooting at 200m only because your loads maybe perfect at 100m, but at 200m and above things change sometimes. In your other post here you mentioned the wind, that has strong influence on your accuracy, my range has often wind gusts at 5/10 kts, so when I'm unsatisfied with my shooting it's a wind's fault. In the last shooting sessions I understood that the bore wiping and the wads are very important. In the attached photo you can see a target at 200m with good 4 holes in the centre, the others were wind's fault. ;)

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[flatsguide]

Then you are all set Claudius, that center group is great and I’d say your ability, rifle and loads are all working. Good luck!
Cheers Richard

[Claudius]

Richard I'm not set at all because I have a lot of new things to learn, wind included.
In the attached photo you can see another target at 200m similar to the previous one with a lot of flyers and a very good central grouping. I used the GG Lyman Postell bullets and I have seen that with the PP bullets I get much less flyers.

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[Claudius]

Today I had a very good day with the DDEPP bullets, found a better load and the 5 shots of 6 went in a 7 x 5.5cm group at 200m. Not bad, better than before.

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