Looking for Wisdom on the Right Way to Start Off

[Rfeustel]

Hello,

I’ve never casted but I am an avid shooter and reloader. I would really appreciate some wisdom in a good way to start casting in terms of equipment setup vs. learning. Specifically, assuming budget isn’t an issue, a setup like the Magma Master Caster vs. the Lyman digitital furnace vs. hand pouring.

I want to gain understanding. I don’t want to shortcut it. I’ve read Lyman’s Cast Bullet Handbook #4, And Magma’s book. But I’m not sure suffering with hammering a mallet against a mold using a dipped ladle is right for me. Or maybe I need to put in those dues. Should I? So here’s the specific question:

Should I put in my dues with a dipped ladle and a pot, or just jump to the Master Caster? Or is there something in between (that isn’t a waste of money)?

Given my experience with single stage vs. indexing presses (vs. eventually automated) in my reloading world, I’m inclined to pass over whacking a mold using a dipped ladle and get right to a bottom pour pot of some kind. But I don’t want to skip valuable dues paying. But the Lyman furnace is half the price of a Magma (sans molds). It’s limited given it’s mold guide, and I still need to use a mallet. But maybe the Master Caster will disassociate me from the learning?

Thoughts appreciated. Will my understanding be better served starting off minimalist (ignore throughput please), or can I start at a level of some amount of throughput, avoid wasted money, without the lowest of throughput, and still learn.

My intention is to load various bullets for old pieces (WWII and before autos, like .32 ACP or 7.65 Browning for various guns), to the extent my current need matters.

Thank you to anyone willing to answer.

[trails4u]

Personally, I think intended volume of casting would drive that introspection. I don't know that I would invest in a Master Caster unless I was planning to cast A LOT. And....whether or not you intend to enjoy the process, or are you just looking for a fast way to produce? That's not a judgement, at all.... We all have our own interests and motivations. If you're a shooter, and casting is simply a means to an end, then maybe that's the right choice for you. If you're part of this sickness, and enjoy the process as much as you enjoy shooting, then maybe simpler is OK.....

[waco]

A bottom pour and a good mold will produce a good amount of quality bullet in short order. Once your mold is up to temp, there is no need to hit the mold with a mallet. The sprue can easily be opened with a gloved thumb.
Start here. Learn the ropes. You can easily shoot thousands of rounds a month doing just this. I'm not knocking the Magma caster, I'm just saying you probably really don't need that much volume. I could be wrong.......
Learn on a two cavity mold. I hate to see newbies start out on a six cavity. Cut your teeth then move up from there.
Do you plan to lube or powder coat? This hobby is like a lot of others. You can make it as simple or as complex as you like.
Walter

[Mk42gunner]

A bottom pour and a good mold will produce a good amount of quality bullet in short order. Once your mold is up to temp, there is no need to hit the mold with a mallet. The sprue can easily be opened with a gloved thumb.
Start here. Learn the ropes. You can easily shoot thousands of rounds a month doing just this. I'm not knocking the Magma caster, I'm just saying you probably really don't need that much volume. I could be wrong.......
Learn on a two cavity mold. I hate to see newbies start out on a six cavity. Cut your teeth then move up from there.
Do you plan to lube or powder coat? This hobby is like a lot of others. You can make it as simple or as complex as you like.
Walter
Lot of wisdom in this post.

If you are planning to cast, lube, load, and shoot thousands of rounds per month; maybe a Magma machine is best for you.

If not, maybe something else will do. A bottom pour pot and a two cavity mold can produce a lot of projectiles easily. A six cavity Lee mold is even faster, but it is not the best way to learn, in my opinion.

If you are going with the traditional lube/size system, and are planning on doing hundreds at a time; I think the Star is the better option over a Lyman or RCBS lubrisizer. No experience with powder coating here.

I will say that I have a lot more fun using my old RCBS lead ladle and a two cavity mold, than I do filling a mold by lifting a lever on my RCBS Promelt.

Robert

[StuBach]

Another recommended reading would be “ingot to target” which can be found in PDF form with a Google search. Lots of great info and knowledge there.

As for getting started I think the earlier posts hit it pretty well. If your only goal is production and money is no object than go for the master caster, god knows we’d all love one. Down side is the furnace is a lot more and the molds are a lot more and more rare.

If your goal is to enjoy the process more and be able to try new designs and what not than save your pennies and buy quality vintage four to ten cavity Hensley and Gibbs molds or jump into quality modern brass or aluminum molds (MP/NOE/Aresenal/Accurate). You can buy their 4cav molds for decent prices and rain bullets with a decent process and a good bottom pour pot. Many of us have survived well with the Lee 4-20 but a RCBS ProMelt 1 or 2 will probably be more enjoyable if you can find one.

Also, see if there are casters in your area willing to let you come and learn from them. You can try out equipment and process before you buy to see what you like. Most of us are happy to teach a newbie. If your in Michigan for instance, I know of several of us (myself included) who would welcome you over for a day of lead melting.

[Targa]

I don’t know that there is a right way to start off just options on how to start. I started bottom pouring with a Lee 4-20 pot, a lead thermometer and a Lee 2 cavity 429 240 grain round nose mold. This worked great for me and I still use the Lee pot and don't see that changing.
Just a side note, I would not buy Lee moulds for the ridiculous prices people are trying to sell them for today, try to find the moulds you would be interested in from other manufacturers like MP, NOE, Arsenal etc etc. If you can find a Lee mould for pre lunacy prices ($20-$25 for a two cavity and $40-$50 for a six cavity) then Lee is a great investment.

[Garyshome]

Start off with the basics as stated above, but try to get a GOOD pot [very important at least a lee 4-20] [If I could find a magma caster for $1200.00 I would buy it or a Lyman furnace for a good price] Lee molds are cost effective and work well. Lee tumble lube is a better option for beginners then Lyman or RCBS lubrisizer. After you gain experience and basic knowledge decisions on more High Quality tools are much easier to make.

[Wayne Smith]

Well, yeah, but right now Lee molds are not cost effective. Price/availability issues currently argue that the custom makers are more cost effective because they haven't upped their prices.

Think of the Magma equipment as production equipment. If you need that volume then look at that as a business investment, or to support high speed competitive shooting/practicing. For normal shooting a good pot and molds that fit your guns are your most significant need. Me and some others still ladle cast because 1) we cast big boolits and bottom pour pots aren't so good at that and 2) it meets our volume needs. Others start with bottom pour and are completely happy, especially those who primarily cast for pistols - i.e. no big boolits.

If you want to cast for rifles and hunting then you want to learn about alloys and gas checks and the BruceB technique of pouring soft point boolits and a lot of other details including internal, external, and terminal ballistics.

A lot depends on your use - and you haven't told us that. What you shoot and why you will cast will drive most of your decisions.

[ascast]

my 2 cents- I never hit molds wit mallets or .. good heavy welding gloves work, exception maybe on some 4-6 cavities or larger. The cutter plates will bend with time. The machines don't do so good with long heavy bullets. I talking full automated. It's a timing/dwell issue. IME, 500 plus grns 45-70 wont fill out on the bases as well, nor vwill things like the 457121 PH, an old Loverin design with lots of driving bands. But pistol bullets by the thousand can be done in a day.

[onelight]

Well nobody can decide but you . You can buy a lot of bullets for what the master caster and molds for it to feed. will cost . If you don't have a free or cheap supply of lead and don't have a big need for a large supply of specialty bullets you may never recoup the cost .
When you read what people use to successfully cast good bullets on the forums you can see that you can get by with from very simple inexpensive equipment to the very expensive .
But you may hate the whole process I can stand a small investment sitting around that does not get used much a lot more than a large investment . I would say buy a Lee 20lb bottom pour unless you can find a good deal on a used better pot and make or buy a pid one or two 2 to 6 cavity molds you can do this for 2 to $300. New . If you decide to go master caster you can sell or keep the other pot and molds and use the pid for several other things in your setup .
No matter what you choose I would not pay the jacked up shortage prices that are going on now. If you don't find a fair price . Wait for all this to be over.

[GhostHawk]

There is at least a masters level volume of information here. Especially in the sticky's. What you do with it is up to you.

If it was me I'd spend a month reading.
Maybe speed a week or 2 casting fishing sinkers to figure out how it all works. And if a fishing sinker don't work just melt it again and try again.

Unless for some real reason you feel you need huge volume. I would not start with a master caster.

I would start with a second hand store 7" or bigger cast pan and a dipper. It will teach you lots.

Then if you want to upgrade by then you'll have a better idea of what you need.

I cast for decades with a lyman ladle, a 7" frying pan in cast, and a heat source. Wood is a bit of a pain, kitchen stove works.
You can find 4 lb dipper pots very reasonable. Or the 20 lb magnum melter, or a 20 lb bottom pour. But you have to know what you like. So find out on the cheap and go from there.

Remember, from a casting viewpoint, bigger is easier than smaller. So .357 and up. 158 gr and up.

Once you have some time and experience under your belt work smaller if you like.

PS for the cost, Lee 6 cavity molds are well made, and RAIN bullets, even ladle casting.
As you gain experience and wisdom branch into whatever turns your crank.

[Larry Gibson]

"Given my experience with single stage vs. indexing presses (vs. eventually automated) in my reloading world, I’m inclined to pass over whacking a mold using a dipped ladle and get right to a bottom pour pot of some kind. But I don’t want to skip valuable dues paying. But the Lyman furnace is half the price of a Magma (sans molds). It’s limited given it’s mold guide, and I still need to use a mallet. But maybe the Master Caster will disassociate me from the learning?

Thoughts appreciated. Will my understanding be better served starting off minimalist (ignore throughput please), or can I start at a level of some amount of throughput, avoid wasted money, without the lowest of throughput, and still learn."

There is a learning curve to casting good bullets. You won't learn it by watching video or even by reading. Yes, those will help get you started but only hands on experience applying what you've "learned" will get you making good cast bullets. Some learn faster than others. You will make mistakes and have questions. Many of us did not have the mentorship available on this forum and had to figure things out ourselves. There are many ways/techniques to doing most things casting so don't be surprised by multiple different answers to "how do I" questions.

Download Lyman's Cast bullet Handbook #3. IMHO the information on casting is much better than #4. Read the up front information, reread the information and then reread the information again.

Get a Lyman Mag 25 or Mag 20 and a multiple cavity mould. Best to start with an inexpensive Lee double cavity mould or two. Ask here how to "prep" the Lee moulds before use.

Sans the automated Magma master Caster you will still be using the mallet on many moulds including multiple cavity moulds except Lee's 6 cavity moulds. With some you can learn how to use a heavily padded glove to open the sprue plate instead of a mallet. With harder alloys a mallet still may be needed/used until the mould heats up or if the sprues holes are large and there's not enough leverage on the sprue plate to cut the sprue by hand. Best to learn the basics in the smaller single or double cavity moulds. It's not hard to learn how not to beat the mould to death.....some don't learn that though.

Casting good bullets for the cartridges you mention is not difficult but we all had to pay our "dues", there is not really any shortcut. How long the journey will be depends on what you want and your interest. I am still on that journey.........

[dverna]

If you want to cast a couple of hundred of this and that, the Master Caster is the wrong way to start. It is for easy casting of larger volumes.

Do not listen to guys like me that hate casting, want to get it over with as quickly and easily as possible, and buy the best equipment to accomplish the "CHORE". I use the Master Caster and Star/Magma Lubri-sizer...but do thousands of the same bullet at a time.

Start with a two cavity mold and see if 200/hr in what turns your crank. You can figure about 100/bullets/hr/cavity....but the Master Caster will do 400-500/hr with two cavities.

Now is a bad time to start as prices are nuts. Buy your molds from one of the custom mold makers as their prices are still fair.

[country gent]

A lot of this decission has to do with your requirements and needs.

Quantity, how many bullets are you going to need use in a given time. The more bullets the more need for true production capabilities.
Time available, how much time are yuu willing to dedicate to this. It has to come from somewhere and usually from a hobby or other source.
Sizes weighs of bullets, This may determine the style of casting. I find it easier to cast long rifle bullets with a ladle. Some prefer the bottom pour.
Area you have to work with. This all takes some room and space

Pistol style bullets requirements are different than rifle bullets meant for long range. But then pistol bullets are usually a higher quantity than rifle bullets.

starting out from scratch Here is what I would recommend

A good bottom pour pot in the 20 lb range, Lee rcbs lyman

The best mould s you can afford this is where the accuracy and quality comes from.

A ladle rcbs or lyman

thermometor this helps repeat results and consistency

A small 8-10 ounce dead blow mallet to cut sprues when needed. This is more a push thru type of blow. I like the dead blow as it does this better.

Some "bar towels" 3-4 to drop bullets on while still hot.

A slotted serving spoon to skim and remove dross.

Thats the equipment now for the important gear.

The ppe you need.

Safety glasses or face shield. you need to protect your eyes from splatters and dust dirt
leather gloves to protect hands
Heavy denim pants
long sleeved shirts
heavy shoes or boots
A ball cap protects head and also eyes.

With the above you can cast reasonably well ladle or bottom pour to see what works for you. and do it safely.

[toallmy]

+ a hot plate for preheating your mold

[Rfeustel]

A lot of this decission has to do with your requirements and needs.

Quantity, how many bullets are you going to need use in a given time. The more bullets the more need for true production capabilities.
Time available, how much time are yuu willing to dedicate to this. It has to come from somewhere and usually from a hobby or other source.
Sizes weighs of bullets, This may determine the style of casting. I find it easier to cast long rifle bullets with a ladle. Some prefer the bottom pour.
Area you have to work with. This all takes some room and space

Pistol style bullets requirements are different than rifle bullets meant for long range. But then pistol bullets are usually a higher quantity than rifle bullets.

starting out from scratch Here is what I would recommend

A good bottom pour pot in the 20 lb range, Lee rcbs lyman

The best mould s you can afford this is where the accuracy and quality comes from.

A ladle rcbs or lyman

thermometor this helps repeat results and consistency

A small 8-10 ounce dead blow mallet to cut sprues when needed. This is more a push thru type of blow. I like the dead blow as it does this better.

Some "bar towels" 3-4 to drop bullets on while still hot.

A slotted serving spoon to skim and remove dross.

Thats the equipment now for the important gear.

The ppe you need.

Safety glasses or face shield. you need to protect your eyes from splatters and dust dirt
leather gloves to protect hands
Heavy denim pants
long sleeved shirts
heavy shoes or boots
A ball cap protects head and also eyes.

With the above you can cast reasonably well ladle or bottom pour to see what works for you. and do it safely.

Thank you! FWIW - I’m interested in casting for pistol, off calibers for old guns.

[Rfeustel]

Thank you Larry Gibson - My 3rd edition is on it’s way.

[Rfeustel]

There is at least a masters level volume of information here. Especially in the sticky's. What you do with it is up to you.

If it was me I'd spend a month reading.
Maybe speed a week or 2 casting fishing sinkers to figure out how it all works. And if a fishing sinker don't work just melt it again and try again.

Unless for some real reason you feel you need huge volume. I would not start with a master caster.

I would start with a second hand store 7" or bigger cast pan and a dipper. It will teach you lots.

Then if you want to upgrade by then you'll have a better idea of what you need.

I cast for decades with a lyman ladle, a 7" frying pan in cast, and a heat source. Wood is a bit of a pain, kitchen stove works.
You can find 4 lb dipper pots very reasonable. Or the 20 lb magnum melter, or a 20 lb bottom pour. But you have to know what you like. So find out on the cheap and go from there.

Remember, from a casting viewpoint, bigger is easier than smaller. So .357 and up. 158 gr and up.

Once you have some time and experience under your belt work smaller if you like.

PS for the cost, Lee 6 cavity molds are well made, and RAIN bullets, even ladle casting.
As you gain experience and wisdom branch into whatever turns your crank.

Thank you - I didn’t think about starting bigger. I think that makes a lot of sense. Maybe start with a .45 for learning, then switch to what I need later. Thank you!

[Rfeustel]

If you want to cast a couple of hundred of this and that, the Master Caster is the wrong way to start. It is for easy casting of larger volumes.

Do not listen to guys like me that hate casting, want to get it over with as quickly and easily as possible, and buy the best equipment to accomplish the "CHORE". I use the Master Caster and Star/Magma Lubri-sizer...but do thousands of the same bullet at a time.

Start with a two cavity mold and see if 200/hr in what turns your crank. You can figure about 100/bullets/hr/cavity....but the Master Caster will do 400-500/hr with two cavities.

Now is a bad time to start as prices are nuts. Buy your molds from one of the custom mold makers as their prices are still fair.


Thank you Don - I just googled custom mold makers. Wow. I didn’t know such a thing existed. Amazing that they can build a mold for a particular diameter and alloy. Just wow. Thanks.

[Rfeustel]

Personally, I think intended volume of casting would drive that introspection. I don't know that I would invest in a Master Caster unless I was planning to cast A LOT. And....whether or not you intend to enjoy the process, or are you just looking for a fast way to produce? That's not a judgement, at all.... We all have our own interests and motivations. If you're a shooter, and casting is simply a means to an end, then maybe that's the right choice for you. If you're part of this sickness, and enjoy the process as much as you enjoy shooting, then maybe simpler is OK.....

Trails4u, thank you. I’ve been thinking about your post since last night. Definitely asking myself about the motivation. Great point.

[Rfeustel]

I don’t know that there is a right way to start off just options on how to start. I started bottom pouring with a Lee 4-20 pot, a lead thermometer and a Lee 2 cavity 429 240 grain round nose mold. This worked great for me and I still use the Lee pot and don't see that changing.
Just a side note, I would not buy Lee moulds for the ridiculous prices people are trying to sell them for today, try to find the moulds you would be interested in from other manufacturers like MP, NOE, Arsenal etc etc. If you can find a Lee mould for pre lunacy prices ($20-$25 for a two cavity and $40-$50 for a six cavity) then Lee is a great investment.


Thank you for this and all the other posts here about the timing of prices for molds. Definitely looking at MP, NOE, and Arsenal.

[Larry Gibson]

Thank you Larry Gibson - My 3rd edition is on it’s way.

Remember when you do start casting the old axiom....."slow is smooth, smooth is fast"......In other words; go for quality instead of quantity. Speed, and thus quantity, will pick up as you learn to cast and get it down. Practice does not make perfect, it only perfects. Learn to cast good quality bullets consistently from the start and then the practice will improve the speed while maintaining the quality.