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BD
01-01-2006, 08:16 PM
Has anyone done any chrony calibrations of the surplus WC860 to H870? I'm also curious how temperature stable it is in the higher pressure loads. I'm looking to burn some of it in my .270 WBY. BD

Bullshop
01-01-2006, 08:53 PM
Without going to my books I will take a stab at it off the cuff. I think H870 is far slower than wc860. I think wc860 is very close to H450 or in about the same burn rate as the stick type 4831's
Dont trust me without books, but somone will be by shortly to confirm or blast me. If I get embarrased enough to overcome my lazyness I might get up and go to books. If not I'll just keep eating my sallad till dezert.
BIC/BS

David R
01-01-2006, 09:45 PM
I have found a full case in the 308 or 30'06 will not get you in trouble even with the heaviest boolits. I have some and am sure if you fill your 270 case up to where the shoulder is and work up from there you may get a pleasant surprise in the accuracy dept. This is with lead boolits. I have never used it with the Jack*t*d thingies.

David

StarMetal
01-01-2006, 09:52 PM
Jeff Bartlett says on his website for surplus powder that you can use H870 or AA8700 loads for 860 loads.

Joe

Bullshop
01-02-2006, 12:43 AM
Sorry but I was wrong. After dezert and might have even fallen off for a short nap i got up off my lazy nether parts to look in the books. Shure nuff My wc 860 says to use data for H870 , AA 8700 Just like Joe said.
I have never used it straight in a small bore mag like you intend to. I have only used it as a main charge with a kicker in big bore straight cases. In this aplication I cant find any difference and I have used all three.
I was thinking of wc852 earlier, which is about like H 450, that is if my memory held from the time I left my shop down stairs till I got here.
I am so embarrased I am going in my hole and not comming out till I see my shadow, or at least till I get hungry again in a few minutes.
BIC/BS

BD
01-02-2006, 07:57 PM
Thanks for the replys. I know what Bartlett says. And I've been down this road before with other powders and "what Bartlett says". I was hoping someone had actually cronied some WC860 against some current H870 in a cartridge similar to the .270 WBY, (7mm, .284) to save me a little time feeling around for a starting point. BD

StarMetal
01-02-2006, 08:31 PM
BD,

In one of my old Hodgdon's books it lists 79 grs of H870 for velocity of 2943 fps for the 270 W.Mag with a 150 gr bullet. There is only one load as you're not to reduce slow powders. So that gives you a ball park for the 860.

Joe

RayinNH
01-02-2006, 08:48 PM
BD, The Accurate #2 manual for AA8700 is as follows:

HDY 110HP 80.1 gr. 2831 89.0 gr. 3217 47,900 P.S.I

BAR 130-X 79.2 gr. 2806 88.0 gr. 3189 55,000 P.S.I.

NOS 140 BT 79.2 gr. 2759 88.0 gr. 3135 54,500 P.S.I.

SRA 150 SBT 79.2 gr. 2776 88.0 gr. 3155 57,700 P.S.I.

All max loads were compressed....Ray

BD
01-02-2006, 09:04 PM
Ray, Thats useful information. What barrel length were they using for the accurate #2 data? Nice to know that a compressed load is still under 60,000 psi. BD

waksupi
01-02-2006, 09:41 PM
BD, I believe I would just start at 80% of case capacity and work up. I imagine you will be safe with at least 105% case capacity.

RayinNH
01-03-2006, 12:11 AM
BD, the information was based on a 26" Douglas barrel, Federal #215 primers and Weatherby brass. One other bit of info you might find helpful and I'll quote the manual,

"There is no SAAMI pressure limit for the .270 Weatherby Magnum. Weatherby factory ammunition produced pressures of 71,000 P.S.I. in our test barrel. Our loads do not exceed that pressure."

...Ray

swheeler
01-03-2006, 09:02 PM
BD; I think a lot depends on the lot# you get, the one I have is faster than canister H870. I don't have a direct comparison as the WC860 reached max pres at a lower loading than I used with H870

smith&wesson 1500 24 in bbl
fc 215 pr-frontier brass-175 nosler part.
H870- 77.0 grs-2884 fps max in my rifle
Wc 860 -74.0- 2653 fps (75.0 loose primer pockets after 2 firing)
Should be a good clean burn in your 270Weath with 130 and up, it is temp sensitive.
Scooter

Ricochet
01-03-2006, 11:45 PM
I have never had any H870. I've got some Hi-Tech pulldown WC860 that I got back in about 1998 or so. In .300 Weatherby and 7mm Remington Magnum I see chronied velocities a bit higher than the manuals that list H870 loads show.

In my 7mm Rem Mag M70 with 26" barrel, 80 grains of this WC860 under a Hornady 175 grain Spire Point gave an average velocity of 2960 FPS in near-freezing weather. It gives sticky bolt lift in hot weather, and is a little too hot IMO. The Hornady Handbook Vol. II shows that charge of H870 with that bullet as a 2900 FPS load.

In the .300 Weatherby with a 200 grain Speer spitzer, Speer #11 shows 95 grains of H870 at 2899 FPS from a 26" Mark V. That load averages about 2975 FPS in my 24" Vanguard. It seems to be a very mild load pressurewise (unlike the above 7mm Rem Mag one), and I've gone considerably above that with shaken down and compressed charges, never being able to get enough in the case to cause pressure signs with the 200 grain Speer. (The most I can get into my neck-sized Remington cases happens to be 100 grains.) I seat them to standard length, crimp them in tightly with a Lee Factory Crimp Die, and with the Weatherby chambering it's got just about 3/8" freebore, which doubtless keeps the pressure down but doesn't seem to hurt the accuracy. Extreme spread with these loads has been in the 10-15 FPS range whenever I've chronied them, and I've shot a bunch of sub-1" 100 yard groups with them.

These are maximum loading manual loads for H870, apparently chosen as the maximum volume the Speer testers felt comfortable compressing in the case for the .300 Weatherby, but apparently near maximum pressure for the 7mm Rem Mag with the long 175 grain bullet. The 7mm Rem Mag has a higher ratio of case volume to bore area than the .300 Weatherby, and the 175 grain 7mm has a higher sectional density than the 200 grain .308.

WC860's not H870, though it's close. Mine appears to be a bit faster burning in my applications.

I've got some pulldown WC872 from Hi-Tech, but I'm saving it till I use up my WC860. Haven't tried it at all.

BD
01-04-2006, 09:46 PM
Thanks again for all the responses. I've always wondered a little about the Hogdon data for the .270 WBY which dates back at least to Hogdon #26, where they show 79 grains of H870 at 2943 fps as the only 870 listing for the 150 grainers, and the max load of H1000 is also 79 grains giving 3051 fps. No pressure data is listed. In most other large capacity bottle neck cartridges the H870 loads are 3 to 5 grains heavier than the H1000 loads. Maybe 79 grains was all they could fit in the case?
BD

swheeler
01-05-2006, 04:21 PM
BD; if you will look in your Speer#8 manual(circa1970)
Rifle; Weatherby Mauser
Barrel; 26" Twist; 1-10
Cases; Remington
Primers:cci200,cci250

Speer 150 gr spitzer
H870 *84.0 3158
*82.0 3086
*80.0 3022
*Denotes use of CCI 250 magnum primer

H870 is beaten out by 4 powders in the velocity departmentN205,H570,4831Has to be H because I wasn't released yet,4350 I believe this was I because H wasn't released yet, all at 3250fps or better
Scooter

Ricochet
01-07-2006, 07:13 PM
In most other large capacity bottle neck cartridges the H870 loads are 3 to 5 grains heavier than the H1000 loads. Maybe 79 grains was all they could fit in the case?
BD
In my Remington 7mm Rem Mags, that 80 gr. charge fills 'em up to the base of the neck. A 175 grain Hornady Spire Point compresses it a good bit.

ace1001
03-27-2007, 12:34 PM
Are WC872, WC860 and WC820 all clean burning powders? Does the pressure have to be 29000+ to burn clean? I'm thinking 45 Colt in a Rossi levergun. Ace

Ricochet
03-27-2007, 12:49 PM
Won't work worth a toot in that application. It's way slow burning in a full case in .300 Weatherby Magnum. It'd hardly burn at all in a .45 Colt. You'd risk having bullets stick in the bore, and they'd barely squib out if not. Most of the powder would be left unburned.

9.3X62AL
03-27-2007, 05:08 PM
WC-820 may be useful in the 45 Colt. My own lot runs about like AA-9 in straightwall Magnum revolver cartridges. Some lots may be slower, closer to H-110. YMMV.

m1garand-man95
01-07-2009, 07:17 PM
Hello. I was flirting with the idea of using the h870 for loading for my garand. What are your thoughts on this idea? Thanks.

wiljen
01-07-2009, 07:51 PM
Hello. I was flirting with the idea of using the h870 for loading for my garand. What are your thoughts on this idea? Thanks.

H870 is way too slow to get top velocities out of the Garand. I wouldn't worry about gas port pressure as I don't think you could get enough in the case to create that situation. I've tried wc860 in the 30-06 with a heavy cast bullet and had fair success with it at about 1750fps but have not tried it in the garand.

44mag1
01-07-2009, 10:49 PM
Ive seen some data for h870 for the 45-70 with heavy bullets. has anyone tried these loads? I also have a bunch of h570 that I was told is basicly an extruded version of h870.

wiljen
01-08-2009, 10:30 AM
Ive seen some data for h870 for the 45-70 with heavy bullets. has anyone tried these loads? I also have a bunch of h570 that I was told is basicly an extruded version of h870.

Castpics.net has some load data using wc860 in the 45-70. You might start there.

bearmn56
01-08-2009, 12:17 PM
Like most of the super slow burners, wc860 was for the 50BMG. I have used this powder in a 22/6mm, 1-8"twist, 80gr bullets. Even in this case, I could barely get enough into the case to give decent velocity. It was also very dirty burning. It will work OK in the 270 WBY especially with heavy bullets. Probably a good starting point would be around 80.0gr with a 150 bullet. This is strictly a surplus powder and variations of burn rate from lot to lot can be quite large. So, as always, start carefully and observe all pressure signs... Also, you should probably use Federal 215 Mag primers too.
I don't use this powder any longer and gave the remainder to another experimenter. It was too temperature sensitive...giving significantly lower velocities (100+ fps) in very cold (zero and below) temperatures. Maybe in the big 50 BMG case this wasn't so much of a problem.
Good Shooting,
Bearmn56
Montana Territory

BD
01-10-2009, 10:25 AM
Wow, This thread goes back a couple of years. Since I first posted the question I did load work up in the .270 mag and came to the following conclusions:

1. Too slow under the lighter bullets, but could be used in a pinch.

2. Works pretty well under the 150 grainers, BUT:

3. As Bear said, over 100 fps velocity variation between winter 0 deg temps and summer 70 deg temps. This is too much variation due to temp for a cartridge that needs to run near the top end to deliver what it was designed to do.

However, it has proven to be quite useful behind 160 grainers in the 6.5x55, and would probably be useful under the real heavy bullets in the 7mm Mauser as well, both uses where you're operating far enough below max pressure that the temp variation is unlikely to result in a bolt sticking out of your forehead.

BD

mpmarty
09-25-2012, 09:57 PM
Hello. I was flirting with the idea of using the h870 for loading for my garand. What are your thoughts on this idea? Thanks.

Much too slow.

Bullshop
09-25-2012, 10:31 PM
I have used H 870 in a Garand with heavy cast boolits with very good results. This too was with duplexing as with the 45/70.