Custom Commission Mauser that's a work of art.

[David LaPell]

I have always had a thing for old custom guns at the turn of the 20th century that were made by the masters, the early days of Holland and Holland, John Rigby, etc. A while ago, our local gun shop got in a couple of older rifles that were custom pieces, one being either a Mauser 1881 Karabiner or '91 Short rifle, the giveaway being the turned down bolt handle.
This gun was built by Eduard Kettner in Koln. The gun is in 7.92 x 57mm, it's the earlier 8mm Mauser with the .318" bore (I've already slugged the barrel and used a dummy round to confirm the chamber). I know I will be handloading for this one instead of using the commercial and hotter .323" ammo. The serial number on the bolt matches the number on the inside of the magazine floorplate.
The rest of the gun is simply amazing in the time it took to put together. The top of the action is stippled by the chamber, and then near the bolt and even part of the bolt. The barrel itself is a half-octagon from BohlerStahl (Bohler Stahl), the Bohler brothers, Albert and Emil were considered some of the finest steel makers in Germany at that time. The star on the maker's mark was because they were Jewish and proud of it and kept that logo until 1933 when they moved their plant to Austria. The company operates to this day under a slightly different name.
The top of the barrel is engraved along the flat and includes the Eduard Kettner name which looks like it has the remains of some gold inlay. The bolt also has a set up for claw style scope mounts and an express rear sights. Even the sight blades have been checkered.
The gun has double set triggers which work and work very well, inside the action is still the remains of the case coloring that must have been on the gun when it was made. The scope mounts are scout/long relief style because the action still uses the Mannlicher style clips for the rounds.
I spent about 3-4 weeks researching the rifle before I decided to trade a lever action Marlin for it, since the odds of me seeing something like this again is probably not going to be an every day thing. And yes, I do plan on shooting this gun. I can only wonder at how long it took to make this gun and how much it would cost to make a gun like this today.

https://i.imgur.com/gaueLAx.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/vw9QUF3.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/scr60tN.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/seholGP.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/ePAgyb7.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/9h49CVF.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/ogJActG.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/x4S0rpY.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/ecn5HyS.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/9zq5AFk.jpg?1

[swheeler]

David that is very nice indeed, not a square inch of it that wasn't "touched" with stippling or engraving, time consuming.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Very nice piece. If only it could talk, I'll bet it would have some great hunting stories to tell.

DG

[444ttd]

:shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:

very nice rifle!!!!!!!!!

[ShooterAZ]

You're right, it is a work of art. It's eye candy, and I'd love to hold it in my own hands and admire it.

[sharps4590]

It is a stunning rifle and in a style I love. I am a sucker for side panels and have several in my toy box.

Have you had it apart and looked at the proofs on the bottom of the barrel?

[GregLaROCHE]

That’s a beauty. When quality of workmanship was held in high regard.

[Texas by God]

I hold Marlins in high regard; but I might have traded two of them for that jewel.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[David LaPell]

It is a stunning rifle and in a style I love. I am a sucker for side panels and have several in my toy box.

Have you had it apart and looked at the proofs on the bottom of the barrel?

I took the stock off last night to see what they looked like, and I got to see more of the case coloring that was all over this gun when it was done. As nice as it is now, I can only imagine what a looker this rifle was the day it left the shop when it was all done.

https://i.imgur.com/7B9OKQU.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/SkbzI6O.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/XN2nAZM.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/S9BbRDv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/iny2RkI.jpg

[MrWolf]

Simply beautiful. Congrats

[sharps4590]

I do not believe it was made by Kettner but, made for the trade in Suhl and bought in by Kettner. Maybe in the white and finished, maybe not. The "henne" in the circle is an early proof mark for Suhl, as I understand it.

The rifle was proofed with a steel bullet and I think what I make out as "2,75 GBP, (?) is the powder charge. Proof was before WWI.

German gun/sporting goods shops were required to have a Master Gunsmith on staff and while it is entirely possible Kettner could make a rifle, I don't believe he made yours. Much like a Marlin or Mossberg being stamped "J.C. Higgins" or "Ted Williams" when sold by Sears & Roebuck...back when this was a free country.

Please take anything I said as subject to correction. The German gun trade at that time, as with the British trade, was still largely a cottage industry. With the results of two World Wars and a fiend named Hitler many records have been lost and/or destroyed.

To me, and I collect German firearms, it doesn't much matter who made it, especially from that era. They are nearly all outstanding pieces of workmanship with the only difference being the level of embellishment. I have both very plain and highly embellished rifles and, as far as their shooting and operation, there is no difference. The only one I do not have a representative of is a vierling....and it's unlikely I'll ever fill that void.

[Buckshot]

.............A VERY nice old hunting piece, and a delight to look at.

Buckshot

[David LaPell]

I do not believe it was made by Kettner but, made for the trade in Suhl and bought in by Kettner. Maybe in the white and finished, maybe not. The "henne" in the circle is an early proof mark for Suhl, as I understand it.

The rifle was proofed with a steel bullet and I think what I make out as "2,75 GBP, (?) is the powder charge. Proof was before WWI.

German gun/sporting goods shops were required to have a Master Gunsmith on staff and while it is entirely possible Kettner could make a rifle, I don't believe he made yours. Much like a Marlin or Mossberg being stamped "J.C. Higgins" or "Ted Williams" when sold by Sears & Roebuck...back when this was a free country.

Please take anything I said as subject to correction. The German gun trade at that time, as with the British trade, was still largely a cottage industry. With the results of two World Wars and a fiend named Hitler many records have been lost and/or destroyed.

To me, and I collect German firearms, it doesn't much matter who made it, especially from that era. They are nearly all outstanding pieces of workmanship with the only difference being the level of embellishment. I have both very plain and highly embellished rifles and, as far as their shooting and operation, there is no difference. The only one I do not have a representative of is a vierling....and it's unlikely I'll ever fill that void.

I have been having a lot of fun digging into the history behind these guns. I found two more guns that have Eduard Kettner on it. One is a near twin for mine except the location of the scope mounts. The other isn't as embellished as well, nowhere near the level of engraving, and it was turned from the Mauser 1888 to a single shot stalking rifle (actually kind of like that one). I also found a page from the Kettner catalog showing what appears to be a 1888 Mauser with what they're labeling as Model 1902 scope. Not sure who exactly did make it, but apparently there were some very close so I have to wonder if this was a catalogued option.

https://i.imgur.com/aTMiX6d.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/I8tS9qH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3RsL9i9.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zOTaHOm.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xWWSU8c.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QlSPId4.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/b1EuCMy.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/obmLwvS.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Ll3Dzjx.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Tbb5mkK.jpg

[GARD72977]

Wow! What a great rifle

[AlHunt]

That is really a great old rifle.

Have you decided what color cerakote you'll use? And where the "Punisher" logo will fit best?

:)

[David LaPell]

That is really a great old rifle.

Have you decided what color cerakote you'll use? And where the "Punisher" logo will fit best?

:)

That would rank right up there with sending my kid to the Association of Young Democrats.

[sharps4590]

Those stalking rifles aren't uncommon, nor are they something you see every day but there has been several different ones offered over the last few years.

It can be exceedingly frustrating trying to figure out who actually made a rifle...and even more so when it's yours. After 12 years of being a member of the German Gun Collector's....and at least that many before I joined...of spending a small fortune on books and digging into a multitude of drillings, combination guns, double rifles, 88's, 96's, 98's and several single shot rifles, Schutzen, stalking and otherwise, (Schuetzen rifles are the easiest, [thank you Alte Scheibenwaffen], usually in the best condition...and often most embellished...and scary accurate). I've come to the conclusion that for my sanity I don't much care who made it, though it's nice to know, they're all excellent. So many small shops in Suhl and in Zella-Mehlis made sooo many, most actually, of the firearms sold in the shops all across Germany, regardless of the name on the rib. It is due to the German gunmakers guild, and the mind set of the German people in general, that the vast majority of German made firearms are the quality they are. They take a back seat to none in quality and exceed most. In their doubles they give away nothing to the British and are a bargain by comparison.

I have a Haenel/Rasch on an 1888 action I presume Haenel re-worked and Rasch retailed although Rasch did make his own firearms as well. I believe they called it an 1890 but am not certain. It's been re-barreled to 9 X 57 and a typical sporting rifle magazine made for for it with the most interesting follower I've ever seen. It is not the typical Mauser "W" spring attached to the floor plate. It is a....kind of solidly mounted follower on a sort of hinge that when pushed fully forward uses a cam to pull the follower out of the way, toward the floor plate. It has a finely done yet robust latch in the front of the trigger guard. It's also a pre-WWI rifle and the bore is bright & shiny...it does have claw bases and....it shoots 240+ gr. cast bullets just fine.

Your rifle pretty much a normal rifle for the era. I have quite a few bolt rifles on various actions in diverse cartridges from about 1890 to the mid-1930's and one is as good as the other. They share very similar traits though the styles changed a bit over that 40 years. Side panels and schnabel's disappeared before or shortly after WWI though they were seen occasionally on later rifles. The 98 action dominated after WWI....for obvious reasons. They were also at least a generation ahead in cartridge development and many of the cartridges American shooters think are "new" had equals or betters developed in Germany over 100 years ago. What we all have today is better propellants and closer tolerances.

[sharps4590]

That is really a great old rifle.

Have you decided what color cerakote you'll use? And where the "Punisher" logo will fit best?

:)

What are those?

[David LaPell]

Those stalking rifles aren't uncommon, nor are they something you see every day but there has been several different ones offered over the last few years.

It can be exceedingly frustrating trying to figure out who actually made a rifle...and even more so when it's yours. After 12 years of being a member of the German Gun Collector's....and at least that many before I joined...of spending a small fortune on books and digging into a multitude of drillings, combination guns, double rifles, 88's, 96's, 98's and several single shot rifles, Schutzen, stalking and otherwise, (Schuetzen rifles are the easiest, [thank you Alte Scheibenwaffen], usually in the best condition...and often most embellished...and scary accurate). I've come to the conclusion that for my sanity I don't much care who made it, though it's nice to know, they're all excellent. So many small shops in Suhl and in Zella-Mehlis made sooo many, most actually, of the firearms sold in the shops all across Germany, regardless of the name on the rib. It is due to the German gunmakers guild, and the mind set of the German people in general, that the vast majority of German made firearms are the quality they are. They take a back seat to none in quality and exceed most. In their doubles they give away nothing to the British and are a bargain by comparison.

I have a Haenel/Rasch on an 1888 action I presume Haenel re-worked and Rasch retailed although Rasch did make his own firearms as well. I believe they called it an 1890 but am not certain. It's been re-barreled to 9 X 57 and a typical sporting rifle magazine made for for it with the most interesting follower I've ever seen. It is not the typical Mauser "W" spring attached to the floor plate. It is a....kind of solidly mounted follower on a sort of hinge that when pushed fully forward uses a cam to pull the follower out of the way, toward the floor plate. It has a finely done yet robust latch in the front of the trigger guard. It's also a pre-WWI rifle and the bore is bright & shiny...it does have claw bases and....it shoots 240+ gr. cast bullets just fine.

Your rifle pretty much a normal rifle for the era. I have quite a few bolt rifles on various actions in diverse cartridges from about 1890 to the mid-1930's and one is as good as the other. They share very similar traits though the styles changed a bit over that 40 years. Side panels and schnabel's disappeared before or shortly after WWI though they were seen occasionally on later rifles. The 98 action dominated after WWI....for obvious reasons. They were also at least a generation ahead in cartridge development and many of the cartridges American shooters think are "new" had equals or betters developed in Germany over 100 years ago. What we all have today is better propellants and closer tolerances.

Would guns like mine have been more likely to be used in Europe for hunting or were they catering to hunters heading to Africa for plains or medium size game? I wonder that with the express sights and the fact the claw mounts were able to be so quickly detached, something that was a benefit anywhere, but especially Africa where the game would have been close quarters. I find guns like these truly fascinating, because I can't imagine how long it took for all the little detail work, the stippling alone on the top of the action and how time consuming that had to be, all the engraving. I would shudder to think how much it would cost to try and duplicate the time and cost of having a gunmaker do all of that work today, then add to it case coloring the gun, adding the double set trigger. A gun like this made now would require me to take out a second mortgage. That's one of the big reasons why I bought it, we don't see guns like this here, little tiny gun shops that while old guns show up all the time, guns like this are never seen.

[Conditor22]

You're going to have a bunch of guys drooling all over their keyboards :)

almost too purdy to shoot.

[Texas by God]

That gun is so nice, and I hate to be a twit- but neither the rifle or cartridge are "Mauser".
Mauser never made the 1888 Commission rifle and the cartridge got the name Mauser in 1905 when the .323" 154gr spitzer bullet was adopted for the issue 1898 Mauser.
But I love that rifle!

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[sharps4590]

I'll start with Texas. He's right. If you make the comparison there's a lot more Mannlicher about the 1888 than Mauser. The two actions share some traits but the split, rear receiver bridge is pure Mannlicher as is the bolt handle in front of the rear receiver bridge.

I get wordy so I'll apologize for that up front. Germany and the Germanic speaking countries, to include the Austro-Hungarian empire, Poland, what's now the Czech Republic, Slovakia....really, most of northern Europe, has a history of hunting at least 400-500 years longer than North America has been discovered by Europeans. As society evolved the larger game became the game of the nobility and the rich. Small game has always been left for the commoners. Peasantry in the Germanic speaking countries was definitely NOT like peasantry in England. Most "peasants"...and that is not a fair description but will have to do,....owned a few to several acres, usually some livestock and owed the landholder something like 2-4 days of work and the rest was there's to tend there property....and make a living. Many worked, save and built there way into significant landholders themselves. They also hunted the small game.

Any rifle made in central Europe could have gone to Africa. Most didn't. Express sights are as common as dirt and claw mount bases aren't far behind. Back then, 1700 to before WWII, there was huge "reviers", hunting land owned by the state or a landholder, often nobility. Germany has managed game since before the US was a nation. There was an immense amount of shooting going on. As firearms developed rapidly in the late 1800's scope bases were added, for obvious reasons, and express sights became common. Hunting methods were not like they are here nor was game management. Cull animals were killed on the spot. Unless it was breeding season, almost everything was fair game....European hunting methods would require volumes. Anyway, as they did their drives and hunter were in their "high seat", (forgot the German word), close up or distant shots could be offered in short order. It was beneficial to have near immediate access to a scope or, express sights. Neither denote African use nor an intention for the rifle to go to Africa. At the end of the day the kill numbers would be frightening to American hunters and, there was MUCH ceremony that evening to give thanks, offer respect to the game, recognize new hunters, recognize hunters who shot the biggest...which ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT carry the same connotation as it does here. The biggest reh deer, stag, boar...whatever...was recognized but it probably didn't make the local paper and make the taker out to be some kind of celebrity. From what I've read predators were shot upon sight. That alone could make for a lot of shooting.

The kill numbers of all kinds of game by the Austro/Hungarian emperor, Franz Joseph Hapsburg and Kaiser Wilhelm Hohenzollern is staggering, multiple thousands.

German makers had a big piece of the African gun trade, nearly all in bolt rifles. Certainly 8 X 57's went to Africa but it was hardly the cartridge of choice. At that time German and England were in sort of an "arms race" in Africa, trying to develop and introduce proprietary cartridges suitable for African game. Generally, England won the double rifle race....and did pretty well in the repeating rifle race. The 9 X 57 was popular and the 9.3 X 74R in singles and doubles did well. The 10.75 X 68, (I think that's the right length), was a fine cartridge but, the bullets sucked....lol! There is several cartridges that went to Africa but most have faded into history. Anyway, rifles like yours, and I suspect nearly all mine, stayed in Europe. That is not to say some didn't make a trip to Africa but, those would be very rare and to prove it nearly impossible. Heck, with a lot of them it's impossible to learn who made them, let alone who owned them and where they hunted...lol! One must remember that most German rifles like yours and mine came to this country as war souvenirs. They were picked up off the streets of German cities, saved from the treads of tanks and bonfires......not in Nairobi or Cape Town.

For a long time I believed as you mentioned, that these were very special, expensive and perhaps bespoke firearms. Well, for the typical German sporter of the era, like yours and most of mine...that ain't so. The typical engraving...borders, maybe some oak leaf and a simple game scene or two was expected to be completed in a day. I want to remember I read from a German translation rifles like yours and most of mine were completed in a week or so. More embellishments obviously took longer as did bespoke firearms.

The German gun trade, and the British, was so different from ours at that time we fail to understand how it worked, unless we pursue it. The apprenticeship program was 4-8 years long and after the apprentice completed his apprenticeship he was expected to travel the country for two years, working for other makers and increase his knowledge and experience. They had to build a rifle from scratch and present it to a "board" for examination. If they passed they were awarded their.....oh shoot. That might have been to receive their Master Gunsmith rating. It's been long enough I'm getting things confused. Anyway, it was a rigorous program and anyone who completed it knew what he was doing.

Those makers were in business to make money and then as now, time was money. With guns made "for the trade", they didn't have hours upon hours to lavish on a firearm. They needed to get them out the door same as today, HOWEVER. Standards were very high, very rigid and they HAD to pass government proof. Something that's never had to be been in the US. If, say....Immanuel Meffert had a contract with Eduard Kettner for X kind of rifles at Y price...if they went over budget, the maker had to eat it. Some firms in existence today have been in business since the 1700's. They don't do that losing money. They also had their basic patterns for bolt rifles, stalking rifles, drillings, doubles, etc. You do the same thing long enough you get pretty quick at it...especially with their work ethic.

No, they weren't cheap back then but they must have been affordable, given the quantity out there, not taking into account the probable millions destroyed by the Allies at the end of the war. As an example, The US makers supposedly made about 60,000 Schuetzen style rifles...that's kind of a specialty rifle. Britain made some ridiculously low number...Schuetzen never really caught on there. From SURVIVING RECORDS, Germany made over 600,000....of a specialty rifle in a day when there was still a lot of handwork. This was going on at the same time the makers were turning out millions of sporting rifles. Germanic speaking nations were hunters and shooters. At the first National Schuetzen match in....I'm pretty certain the 1870's...there was over 8,000 contestants. That's nearly 1/2 the population of my town and at a time when travel was by horse and rail.

Sooo...no sir, it's unlikely your rifle went to Africa..or most other German made rifles, mine included, went to Africa. I have three German doubles, one from the 1870's in 11.15 X 60R and, two others, one in 8 X 65R Brenneke, re-chambered from a pre-WWI, Vierordt double and the other a Gebruder Merkel, O/U in 8 X 60R Magnum. It is from the 1930's. I have no reason to suspect any went to Africa. The Vierordt and Merkel have bases and I have the rings and scopes. But....it's fun to wonder and play "what if." I do it too.

[David LaPell]

I'll start with Texas. He's right. If you make the comparison there's a lot more Mannlicher about the 1888 than Mauser. The two actions share some traits but the split, rear receiver bridge is pure Mannlicher as is the bolt handle in front of the rear receiver bridge.

I get wordy so I'll apologize for that up front. Germany and the Germanic speaking countries, to include the Austro-Hungarian empire, Poland, what's now the Czech Republic, Slovakia....really, most of northern Europe, has a history of hunting at least 400-500 years longer than North America has been discovered by Europeans. As society evolved the larger game became the game of the nobility and the rich. Small game has always been left for the commoners. Peasantry in the Germanic speaking countries was definitely NOT like peasantry in England. Most "peasants"...and that is not a fair description but will have to do,....owned a few to several acres, usually some livestock and owed the landholder something like 2-4 days of work and the rest was there's to tend there property....and make a living. Many worked, save and built there way into significant landholders themselves. They also hunted the small game.

Any rifle made in central Europe could have gone to Africa. Most didn't. Express sights are as common as dirt and claw mount bases aren't far behind. Back then, 1700 to before WWII, there was huge "reviers", hunting land owned by the state or a landholder, often nobility. Germany has managed game since before the US was a nation. There was an immense amount of shooting going on. As firearms developed rapidly in the late 1800's scope bases were added, for obvious reasons, and express sights became common. Hunting methods were not like they are here nor was game management. Cull animals were killed on the spot. Unless it was breeding season, almost everything was fair game....European hunting methods would require volumes. Anyway, as they did their drives and hunter were in their "high seat", (forgot the German word), close up or distant shots could be offered in short order. It was beneficial to have near immediate access to a scope or, express sights. Neither denote African use nor an intention for the rifle to go to Africa. At the end of the day the kill numbers would be frightening to American hunters and, there was MUCH ceremony that evening to give thanks, offer respect to the game, recognize new hunters, recognize hunters who shot the biggest...which ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT carry the same connotation as it does here. The biggest reh deer, stag, boar...whatever...was recognized but it probably didn't make the local paper and make the taker out to be some kind of celebrity. From what I've read predators were shot upon sight. That alone could make for a lot of shooting.

The kill numbers of all kinds of game by the Austro/Hungarian emperor, Franz Joseph Hapsburg and Kaiser Wilhelm Hohenzollern is staggering, multiple thousands.

German makers had a big piece of the African gun trade, nearly all in bolt rifles. Certainly 8 X 57's went to Africa but it was hardly the cartridge of choice. At that time German and England were in sort of an "arms race" in Africa, trying to develop and introduce proprietary cartridges suitable for African game. Generally, England won the double rifle race....and did pretty well in the repeating rifle race. The 9 X 57 was popular and the 9.3 X 74R in singles and doubles did well. The 10.75 X 68, (I think that's the right length), was a fine cartridge but, the bullets sucked....lol! There is several cartridges that went to Africa but most have faded into history. Anyway, rifles like yours, and I suspect nearly all mine, stayed in Europe. That is not to say some didn't make a trip to Africa but, those would be very rare and to prove it nearly impossible. Heck, with a lot of them it's impossible to learn who made them, let alone who owned them and where they hunted...lol! One must remember that most German rifles like yours and mine came to this country as war souvenirs. They were picked up off the streets of German cities, saved from the treads of tanks and bonfires......not in Nairobi or Cape Town.

For a long time I believed as you mentioned, that these were very special, expensive and perhaps bespoke firearms. Well, for the typical German sporter of the era, like yours and most of mine...that ain't so. The typical engraving...borders, maybe some oak leaf and a simple game scene or two was expected to be completed in a day. I want to remember I read from a German translation rifles like yours and most of mine were completed in a week or so. More embellishments obviously took longer as did bespoke firearms.

The German gun trade, and the British, was so different from ours at that time we fail to understand how it worked, unless we pursue it. The apprenticeship program was 4-8 years long and after the apprentice completed his apprenticeship he was expected to travel the country for two years, working for other makers and increase his knowledge and experience. They had to build a rifle from scratch and present it to a "board" for examination. If they passed they were awarded their.....oh shoot. That might have been to receive their Master Gunsmith rating. It's been long enough I'm getting things confused. Anyway, it was a rigorous program and anyone who completed it knew what he was doing.

Those makers were in business to make money and then as now, time was money. With guns made "for the trade", they didn't have hours upon hours to lavish on a firearm. They needed to get them out the door same as today, HOWEVER. Standards were very high, very rigid and they HAD to pass government proof. Something that's never had to be been in the US. If, say....Immanuel Meffert had a contract with Eduard Kettner for X kind of rifles at Y price...if they went over budget, the maker had to eat it. Some firms in existence today have been in business since the 1700's. They don't do that losing money. They also had their basic patterns for bolt rifles, stalking rifles, drillings, doubles, etc. You do the same thing long enough you get pretty quick at it...especially with their work ethic.

No, they weren't cheap back then but they must have been affordable, given the quantity out there, not taking into account the probable millions destroyed by the Allies at the end of the war. As an example, The US makers supposedly made about 60,000 Schuetzen style rifles...that's kind of a specialty rifle. Britain made some ridiculously low number...Schuetzen never really caught on there. From SURVIVING RECORDS, Germany made over 600,000....of a specialty rifle in a day when there was still a lot of handwork. This was going on at the same time the makers were turning out millions of sporting rifles. Germanic speaking nations were hunters and shooters. At the first National Schuetzen match in....I'm pretty certain the 1870's...there was over 8,000 contestants. That's nearly 1/2 the population of my town and at a time when travel was by horse and rail.

Sooo...no sir, it's unlikely your rifle went to Africa..or most other German made rifles, mine included, went to Africa. I have three German doubles, one from the 1870's in 11.15 X 60R and, two others, one in 8 X 65R Brenneke, re-chambered from a pre-WWI, Vierordt double and the other a Gebruder Merkel, O/U in 8 X 60R Magnum. It is from the 1930's. I have no reason to suspect any went to Africa. The Vierordt and Merkel have bases and I have the rings and scopes. But....it's fun to wonder and play "what if." I do it too.

I really enjoy digging into these things, because I used to work for a German man who taught me a lot about the aspects of that country we don't hear much about, also European hunting in general, which I love is really steeped in tradition, something I think that's been lost here. I think hunting here has gotten far too commercialized and in many cases, I don't see the respect for the game animals here that you do with the European hunting. I get some in my family that was passed down because of all the Mohawk traditions we have that came from that side of the family.
I recently ran across yet another custom German gun, but this one is even older, couldn't get the greatest of pictures, this one was made by F. Jung & Sohne in Suhl and was as best I can say a one of a kind piece. It's a side by side smoothbore, they had it listed as a 20 gauge, but the bores when I measured them come out to about .590" or so. This one has even more carving & engraving, the woodwork is beyond impressive, including the wolf's head on the forearm where the mouth holds the ramrod (sadly missing) in place, the eyes being mother of pearl and reflect the light. This one was made for what appears to be a baron, can't really make out the first name, but the last name being "von Sperl" and from what I could gather online, was made by this company sometime between 1830-1860. Another show stopper for sure. It's always been hard for me to like the newer guns with their synthetic stock and matte finish, which I know will work just fine and are tougher than the wood and blued steel, but those guns seem to have no "soul" if there's such a thing to describe a gun. They all look like some cookie cutter, along with the dozen other guns just like them on the shelf.

https://i.imgur.com/J0RFJCS.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/iqUnLpH.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/nsEZiCQ.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/lLXDO00.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/hMvxVs1.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vk0WJio.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/g9ZBMn3.jpg

[TCLouis]

That is nice.
Would be great to go to the range and pend some time launching some lead projies out of said rifle.

[sharps4590]

I dearly love muzzle loaders and especially German muzzle loaders. I'd love to have an original but every one I come across is more than I want to spend or needs repairs beyond my abilities. Closest I've come is an 1780's reproduction Jaeger in 54 cal.

That Jung piece is....indescribable!! Is there a picture of the entire firearm? Would love to see it. I'm sending you a PM.

No question hunting has become too commercialized. It's BIG business and I find it disgusting. Entirely TOO MUCH emphasis on having to kill something and it has to be big. It's hilarious what you must have to even have a chance at taking a game animal. camo, face paint, a rifle capable of 1,000 yard accuracy, a scope of 12-36 power with an objective lens the size of a sauce pan, lighted reticle, synthetic and stainless steel rifles, (which are cold and soulless and without character), scents, range finders, ad infinitum. All to kill a 150 lb. deer at 80 yards. The "hunt" has been removed from hunting. There's no question there is truly dedicated hunters, both for trophy's and meat. I have no problem with either and those guys I respect. The once a year Rambo's are the ones I could find immensely amusing, were it not so sad.

Last deer I killed was a raghorn 7 point at 30 feet with a Jack Garner, 54 cal. Leman flintlock. I was wearing gray, German Army surplus, wool pants and a green, US Army surplus, wool shirt and some kind of hat with an orange watch cap pulled over the crown. I was still hunting a south facing ridge, saw the deer coming my way at about 75 yards and just had time to back between a pair of cedar trees. I thought the deer was going to bust me at about 20 feet but it veered off to my right. While the buck was out of vision behind the cedar I managed to get the rifle up and poked through a gap in the cedars without spooking the deer. Just as it was about to get into my wind stream, had a very gentle breeze, I fired. End of hunt. Stepped off the shot...15 paces with my short legs. That was a good hunt.

[David LaPell]

I dearly love muzzle loaders and especially German muzzle loaders. I'd love to have an original but every one I come across is more than I want to spend or needs repairs beyond my abilities. Closest I've come is an 1780's reproduction Jaeger in 54 cal.

That Jung piece is....indescribable!! Is there a picture of the entire firearm? Would love to see it. I'm sending you a PM.

No question hunting has become too commercialized. It's BIG business and I find it disgusting. Entirely TOO MUCH emphasis on having to kill something and it has to be big. It's hilarious what you must have to even have a chance at taking a game animal. camo, face paint, a rifle capable of 1,000 yard accuracy, a scope of 12-36 power with an objective lens the size of a sauce pan, lighted reticle, synthetic and stainless steel rifles, (which are cold and soulless and without character), scents, range finders, ad infinitum. All to kill a 150 lb. deer at 80 yards. The "hunt" has been removed from hunting. There's no question there is truly dedicated hunters, both for trophy's and meat. I have no problem with either and those guys I respect. The once a year Rambo's are the ones I could find immensely amusing, were it not so sad.

Last deer I killed was a raghorn 7 point at 30 feet with a Jack Garner, 54 cal. Leman flintlock. I was wearing gray, German Army surplus, wool pants and a green, US Army surplus, wool shirt and some kind of hat with an orange watch cap pulled over the crown. I was still hunting a south facing ridge, saw the deer coming my way at about 75 yards and just had time to back between a pair of cedar trees. I thought the deer was going to bust me at about 20 feet but it veered off to my right. While the buck was out of vision behind the cedar I managed to get the rifle up and poked through a gap in the cedars without spooking the deer. Just as it was about to get into my wind stream, had a very gentle breeze, I fired. End of hunt. Stepped off the shot...15 paces with my short legs. That was a good hunt.

I sent you a PM with some more info on the Jung. I was in the shop today so I was able to get some more photos, the lighting in the place isn't the best, but you can see the workmanship on the gun is extraordinary.

https://i.imgur.com/g9ZBMn3.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/IJSMTeb.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FRe8E9B.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/PVt6M0A.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1qoNBnV.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/NYKW0X1.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/QEQsq2l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0EoxtIT.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/yU8gEiv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/vLeCuP8.jpg

[David LaPell]

I dearly love muzzle loaders and especially German muzzle loaders. I'd love to have an original but every one I come across is more than I want to spend or needs repairs beyond my abilities. Closest I've come is an 1780's reproduction Jaeger in 54 cal.

That Jung piece is....indescribable!! Is there a picture of the entire firearm? Would love to see it. I'm sending you a PM.

No question hunting has become too commercialized. It's BIG business and I find it disgusting. Entirely TOO MUCH emphasis on having to kill something and it has to be big. It's hilarious what you must have to even have a chance at taking a game animal. camo, face paint, a rifle capable of 1,000 yard accuracy, a scope of 12-36 power with an objective lens the size of a sauce pan, lighted reticle, synthetic and stainless steel rifles, (which are cold and soulless and without character), scents, range finders, ad infinitum. All to kill a 150 lb. deer at 80 yards. The "hunt" has been removed from hunting. There's no question there is truly dedicated hunters, both for trophy's and meat. I have no problem with either and those guys I respect. The once a year Rambo's are the ones I could find immensely amusing, were it not so sad.

Last deer I killed was a raghorn 7 point at 30 feet with a Jack Garner, 54 cal. Leman flintlock. I was wearing gray, German Army surplus, wool pants and a green, US Army surplus, wool shirt and some kind of hat with an orange watch cap pulled over the crown. I was still hunting a south facing ridge, saw the deer coming my way at about 75 yards and just had time to back between a pair of cedar trees. I thought the deer was going to bust me at about 20 feet but it veered off to my right. While the buck was out of vision behind the cedar I managed to get the rifle up and poked through a gap in the cedars without spooking the deer. Just as it was about to get into my wind stream, had a very gentle breeze, I fired. End of hunt. Stepped off the shot...15 paces with my short legs. That was a good hunt.

A couple more of the Jung.

https://i.imgur.com/0Z4JIXy.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/3sVJv1w.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/N5Yxmf4.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0H4Af6X.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/rVSdy7x.jpg

[sharps4590]

Surely that was a bespoke piece. I see that piece at the toe you were talking about. It also looks like a period repair If it is a stalking safety, he ritght safety doesn't look to be all there....then again it does....it doesn't look like the safety on the left lock...do you recall?

[David LaPell]

Surely that was a bespoke piece. I see that piece at the toe you were talking about. It also looks like a period repair If it is a stalking safety, he ritght safety doesn't look to be all there....then again it does....it doesn't look like the safety on the left lock...do you recall?

If I recall, both of those safeties do work, and the tension on the hammers is excellent.

[sharps4590]

Must be the different angles and the light. The piece is stunning.

[KCSO]

On the 88 rifle if you can get a copy check out the listings on these. They were offered from Plain Jane conversions and military carbines to full engraved sporting rifles in 7,8 and 9mm IIRR. The carbines were sold surplus from Sears after WWI. The military Carbine ran 95 marks and the fancy engraved guns 172 Marks. Some had a pop up peep in the pistol grip.

[sharps4590]

That pop up peep sight wasn't a peep sight but a diopter for the barrel sights, according to Axel Eichendorf.

[David LaPell]

That pop up peep sight wasn't a peep sight but a diopter for the barrel sights, according to Axel Eichendorf.

I am having a heck of time finding this stamping anywhere. I have a copy of The Standard Directory of Proof Marks, it's not in there at all, can't find it online anywhere.

https://i.imgur.com/4FSQujl.jpg

[sharps4590]

Dave, I think that's the "henne" proof mark of Suhl. I've never been able to find it either but I want to remember it was addressed in a thread on the German Gun Collector's web site. I've been known to dis-remember also....

[David LaPell]

Dave, I think that's the "henne" proof mark of Suhl. I've never been able to find it either but I want to remember it was addressed in a thread on the German Gun Collector's web site. I've been known to dis-remember also....

I found another rifle, almost identical to mine except for a couple of things, the caliber is different as well, but you can see how close it is. It also has a different name, again, another Suhl gun. I really wonder how many of these there were out there at one point in time. I know of three like this one, with subtle differences, I know there were probably a lot more. Would they have been a catalogued item? I know of the three I've seen, mine, another like mine which was the same except the scope mount was in a different place and then this one here are all slightly different. I will say one thing, I don't think I've had this much fun doing some research on guns in years.

https://i.imgur.com/UZSOo7E.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/M6CTSfv.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dNjEpD5.jpg

[sharps4590]

I believe they were a catalogue item. I'm quite confident I've seen pictures posted on the GGCA web site and in their publications showing similar rifles.

If you haven't been to the German Gun Collector's site, you really need to hit it. There isn't a lot of activity since the software was changed. There's still a ton of archival material and any question asked usually gets a prompt reply.

Careful about having all that fun digging into old German firearms. It's like fly fishing with a bamboo rod, it isn't called the benign addiction without good reason.

[Tjordan350x]

Any updates on your rifle? I have one very similar, no scope mounts. But everything else is almost identical. Calibers 8mm. Iv been looking for info for years and this is the first time I have found anything.

[john.k]

Most of these guns come from postwar Germany and Austria .......guns were prohibited by the occupying forces .....the British and French destroyed them ,the Russians arrested the owners and sent them to slave labour camps......only the US forces were allowed to take confiscated guns and send them home.......back in the day (1960s) the fancy 98s were a source of custom actions for 257 Roberts and 25/06s ,the 88s were left unmolested.