Taurus Model 85: Can it handle +P loads?

[VariableRecall]

A friend of mine is very excited that I can reload for him. He has a Taurus Model 85 revolver with a 2inch barrel in .38 Special. He was hoping that I could put together a load for him so that he can train with heavier loadings similar to his +P defensive ammo that he has in his stash.

I have 158gn SWC boolits handy, as well as Win 231. I couldn't find any +P 158gn loads using Win 231 in the latest Lee Handbook, but I did find a loading in my electronic copy of the Lyman 48th Edition handbook, using a 155gn SWC.

This loading from Lyman calls for 5gn of Win 231, which is right on the nose for how much powder I'd put in a .45 ACP loading. Not to mention, the Manual estimates that the loading will have 18,000 Copper Units of Pressure in there. I'm fairly certain that 13,000-14,000 CUP is the SAAMI Average.

278957

While I have cross referenced the Model 85 manual which does confirm it was designed for +P in mind, I'm not nearly as comfortable as my friend with pushing the charge to those levels.

In my Honest opinion, I'm on the cautious side of using +P Loads in .38 Special, since the benefits are very small, but the risks of running your revolver hard are all the same. Dangerous pressures for an extra 100fps doesn't sounds like a great deal to me.

Is this loading reasonable? Have you had experience with the Model 85 running hotter loads? I have handled but not fired my friend's snubby and the frame's construction feels solid but moving parts of the cylinder felt like its weakest link.

[Bazoo]

The 358156 bullet you reference seats deeper than most other SWC bullets. Without knowing your bullets exact length and case volume, I would guess that it would be a full power, but not +P load.

Taurus is a middle grade gun. It won't hold up to +P for a steady diet, for that matter it won't hold up to a steady diet of regular ammo without getting loose. They won't blow up just get loose and worn. Taurus fans though will chime in and say sure I got this Taurus I had 20 years an shot 10k rounds through and it still works. That's the rating I give Taurus "it works", nothing more.

You should invest in a one book one caliber manual from loadbooksusa. They are invaluable for load work up. They have a website, http://www.loadbooks.com

[AndyC]

A friend of mine is very excited that I can reload for him.
Uh oh... that can be a whole nest of liability snakes right there.

I wouldn't personally feel comfortable loading +P for someone else. I wish I could definitively answer your question re loads but the potentials in your circumstances are not something I'm comfortable with, based on past experience.

[VariableRecall]

The 358156 bullet you reference seats deeper than most other SWC bullets. Without knowing your bullets exact length and case volume, I would guess that it would be a full power, but not +P load.

Taurus is a middle grade gun. It won't hold up to +P for a steady diet, for that matter it won't hold up to a steady diet of regular ammo without getting loose. They won't blow up just get loose and worn. Taurus fans though will chime in and say sure I got this Taurus I had 20 years an shot 10k rounds through and it still works. That's the rating I give Taurus "it works", nothing more.

You should invest in a one book one caliber manual from loadbooksusa. They are invaluable for load work up. They have a website, http://www.loadbooks.com

So, 5grains of Win 231 would be just on the edge of +P for a 158gn Boolit? The ones I have were based of the Saeco mold, and a lot of their length is in the case.

Honestly, the amount of play in the yoke was uncomfortable with that thing. I don't think it would have affected performance or safety, but that wasn't exactly a shining example of quality.

Also, I just realized that I have one of those Loadbooks USA manuals for .38 Special! I should have looked there as well!

[VariableRecall]

Uh oh... that can be a whole nest of liability snakes right there.

I wouldn't personally feel comfortable loading +P for someone else.

I'm thinking that I could initially make a run of 5 cartridges (marked clearly as +P with something on the boolit tip) and see what he thinks of it. I could show him every step that I'm doing in the process and even let him check the measurements on the scale himself.

[rintinglen]

You may try 5.0 grains with a 358-311 158 grain RN for an excellent +p load. However, 4.6 grains drops pressures, still gives a materially similar push, and will reduce wear on your buddy's fine M-85. Trigger time is trigger time, and provided the ammo hits close enough to POA to give useful practice, they'll be just fine.

In my experience, the Taurus M-85 revolvers made after 1988 are just durable as a comparable S&W. Earlier guns were made of soft steel, and were not in the same league as a Smith.

[VariableRecall]

You may try 5.0 grains with a 358-311 158 grain RN for an excellent +p load. However, 4.6 grains drops pressures, still gives a materially similar push, and will reduce wear on your buddy's fine M-85. Trigger time is trigger time, and provided the ammo hits close enough to POA to give useful practice, they'll be just fine.

In my experience, the Taurus M-85 revolvers made after 1988 are just durable as a comparable S&W. Earlier guns were made of soft steel, and were not in the same league as a Smith.

My buddy's Taurus 85 is a Modern production one. He got it brand new around 2015.

[Bazoo]

Glens right, 5 grains will be a +p loading.

The modern Taurus's Ive seen didn't seem to hold up nearly as well as a smith.

[onelight]

I have worked with a lot of people in reloading. For years 3 to 5 guys would show up and load on my equipment we had a great time , have your friend come over and teach him how to do it himself and you can help and use your equipment . I also would not go with +P for practice ammo but that is up to you.

[AndyC]

I'm thinking that I could initially make a run of 5 cartridges (marked clearly as +P with something on the boolit tip) and see what he thinks of it. I could show him every step that I'm doing in the process and even let him check the measurements on the scale himself.
Coolness.

It might be an idea for HIM to tell you what load he wants and get it on paper so he can't come after you if things go pear-shaped ;)

[Dunross]

I have a Model 85 Taurus in .38 special. A +p 158gr load is not particularly pleasant to shoot, nor is accuracy the greatest.

I have my best luck with it in normal 38 pressures using a 125gr bullet. In fact I like a 125gr wadcutter at normal velocities (as in not a slow target round).

[VariableRecall]

Coolness.

It might be an idea for HIM to tell you what load he wants and get it on paper so he can't come after you if things go pear-shaped ;)

I'm sending along your guy's advice to see what he thinks. In my opinion that load using 4.5 grains sounds like a better thing to start out with.

Also, I like the notion of tuning the load to the point of impact rather than the "hot-ness" of the load itself.

[Bazoo]

Honestly, I wouldn't load for anyone else. Loading is work. Won't be long and a box or two will grow into half a case. I agree, let him use your equipment.

[VariableRecall]

Honestly, I wouldn't load for anyone else. Loading is work. Won't be long and a box or two will grow into half a case. I agree, let him use your equipment.

The good thing is that he has some reloading equipment himself. He has a Hornady Lock-and-Load, but way back when he did something to the system that broke it. It's been years since he checked it and he's never contacted Hornady about how to fix it. Also, the home that he lives in has an understandably cautious owner that doesn't want anyone in her garage that isn't him.

He also has some of those precious primers, a currently unknown powder (He doesn't remember what it was), plenty of brass, and some J-Words.

Once things get less hectic, and that vaccine gets a lot less experimental, I'd love to get that progressive press up and running again for him.

[bimus]

I have learned that once you give some one ammo it is out of your control what they shoot it in and there are a lot of light duty 38 out there and people that think if it fits it must be ok .

[Mr_Sheesh]

Teach him to load and supervise like a hawk, might get him addicted to reloading :)

[sghart3578]

To the OP:

I like your enthusiasm. Would I reload for any one else?

No.

[Beagle333]

Good luck. I'd say no to reloading for anybody else. Besides.... who has the primers?

[VariableRecall]

Good luck. I'd say no to reloading for anybody else. Besides.... who has the primers?

Actually he has the primers!

The whole point is to ensure that he starts on the right foot with his own reloading endeavors, since he has some equipment and supplies already but never really got started.

[Beagle333]

I think starting on the right foot would be to advise him to follow book loads. You don't need +P for self defense anyway. If you get any sort of bullet in the bad guy, going any speed at all, he's going to become really concerned about that. Concentrate on shot placement and put 6 of them in him at regular loads. 8-)

[Mk42gunner]

Besides the liability of loading ammo for someone else without the required license, a modern Taurus Model 85 will shot high with a 158 grain projectile.

I have one a few years old and it shoots high with anything heavier than 125 grains. It is rated for Plus P, but if you can't hit what you aim at, extra power is pointless.

Robert

[VariableRecall]

I think starting on the right foot would be to advise him to follow book loads. You don't need +P for self defense anyway. If you get any sort of bullet in the bad guy, going any speed at all, he's going to become really concerned about that. Concentrate on shot placement and put 6 of them in him at regular loads. 8-)

I have a similar philosophy to you. Honestly, Any sized boolit going into your body is immediately going to change one's priorities. .38 Special has plenty of oomph for defense purposes. Besides, it's far better than no handgun at all with you when you need it most. In comparison, my S&W Model 10-5 from 1969 is far from compatible with +P, and so far I've done a good job at keeping those loads safe for target practice.

However, my friend is on the other side of the board, where he wants to press any advantage that his hardware may have, including the +P capability of his Taurus M-85. He has emphasized that it's a utility carry revolver, not exactly something pretty or precious, just getting the self-defense job done. He had said that if he wears the thing out early he could just replace it with a higher quality CC firearm in the future.

[charlie b]

Have him compare the 140WC loads to the 158LSWC loads.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#38spl

[AndyC]

he wants to press any advantage that his hardware may have
I'm not referring to your friend here specifically, but as a general musing:

I wonder what percentage of shooters rely on purchasing "things" instead of improving their (often questionable) skills. By all means, eek out every advantage and do get the right "thing" but not while ignoring the practice to develop skills which are far more practical/valuable in a fight.

As to your friend - and I'm not knocking his choice of firearm here - I'm curious whether he does have the skills to run a .38 snub well, as the skills of those folks who choose those generally-speaking tend to be either novices or experts with not many folks in-between.

Just idle musing and off the topic of the loads - sorry :)

[Bazoo]

Sounds like to me he might not be suited to be a reloader from that attitude. My press broke, just give up. My loads wore my gun out just buy another. Very few folks here have an attitude like that.

If he isn't really into learning to reload, maybe you could strike a deal with him to trade for his components and "broke" press (ain't worth nothing to him since it's broke and all) for a fixed number of rounds for his gun. I don't know if it's legal to trade reloads to a friend however. Liability issues not withstanding.

[VariableRecall]

Sounds like to me he might not be suited to be a reloader from that attitude. My press broke, just give up. My loads wore my gun out just buy another. Very few folks here have an attitude like that.

He started his reloading endeavors at a much younger age than I did without any supervision, and without the aid of someone skilled in the process. I'm just thankful that whatever happened with that press, he ended up safe and sound.

Not to mention, starting off using a progressive press was probably his downfall. I had known about his reloading equipment and I knew that whenever I started I wanted to make sure that I started with something dead simple and easy to use. These days he is quite interested in getting the equipment up and running again.

I also have the advantage of being able to meet him by late March. Hopefully, my schedule isn't too hectic and my folks get some understanding of my own reloading setup, and I can show him the ropes.
I know my friend quite well. I know that he's got a mindset for self improvement and his life's going a lot better for him these days. Back when he had acquired his reloading equipment he could find Spam Can 7.62x39 for sale, and when his press got busted ammo was still cheap and plentiful. The Taurus revolver was one of his first firearms, but it's certainly not his only one.

[VariableRecall]

I'm not referring to your friend here specifically, but as a general musing:

I wonder what percentage of shooters rely on purchasing "things" instead of improving their (often questionable) skills. By all means, eek out every advantage and do get the right "thing" but not while ignoring the practice to develop skills which are far more practical/valuable in a fight.

As to your friend - and I'm not knocking his choice of firearm here - I'm curious whether he does have the skills to run a .38 snub well, as the skills of those folks who choose those generally-speaking tend to be either novices or experts with not many folks in-between.

Just idle musing and off the topic of the loads - sorry :)

Just going a little off topic in response to you...

I think that it would be a valuable experience for my friend to be a little humbled by trying to dump 5 rounds of P+ into center of mass of a target at 10 yards. I haven't tried a snubbie yet, but I'd assume the shooting experience is going to be a lot more tricky than my 10-5. Either way, we all got to start from somewhere.

Currently I've been trying to find period tactics documents for my revolver for the simple reason that modern combat doctrine really doesn't apply to it very well. I've only been able to get good groups with my 10-5 by adopting a "fencing" style stance with one foot in front of the other and my shooting arm way out. It looks goofy, but it works! I feel that I should be trying to train to use my 10-5 with the tactics that were conceived around it.

Remarkably, I'd found of version of "Shooting to Live with the One-Hand Gun" by Fairbarin and Sykes online for free. Turns out the pair trained British commandos and OSS agents during the war after they made their book. Here's the link to it!
https://b-ok.cc/book/585664/731e9b?dsource=recommend
While some things, like reccomending a "Fitz" conversion for concealed carry use, didn't exactly age well. However, the other basics of taking cover, point shooting at close range, and ensuring as easy access to your firearm as possible according to your means of carry are tactics that are quite timeless.

[AndyC]

Oh, indeed - I'm a Scot, so I appreciate the contributions Sykes/Fairbairn made to the commando arts (most WW2 Commandos were trained in Scotland). Funny enough, my pocket-knife in Iraq was a Gerber Applegate-Fairbairn and a number of my team-mates were ex Royal Marine Commandos - funny old life...

I look forward to hearing about his experiences actually shooting +Ps - and yes, we do all have to start somewhere, true, and experience is a great teacher (and often a humbler).

[VariableRecall]

Oh, indeed - I'm a Scot, so I appreciate the contributions Sykes/Fairbairn made to the commando arts (most WW2 Commandos were trained in Scotland). Funny enough, my pocket-knife in Iraq was a Gerber Applegate-Fairbairn and a number of my team-mates were ex Royal Marine Commandos - funny old life...

I look forward to hearing about his experiences actually shooting +Ps - and yes, we do all have to start somewhere, true, and experience is a great teacher (and often a humbler).

Not meaning to get off-topic again about "Shooting to Live" but I find that the entries dispelling the myth of Stopping Power and advocating for high-velocity jacketed bullets for police use to be very ahead of their time. It makes me wonder what kind of miniature hell they had to endure in policing Shanghai to learn the hard lessons they advocate for.

[AndyC]

Indeed - apparently Fairbairn was covered in scars from edged weapons during those fights - it must have been one heck of a place, and casual theories went out the window quickly.

I was chided for my own preference for "sufficient penetration" by the over-penetration crowd - but I'd developed that after attending an autopsy on a guy shot right on the sternum with a frangible bullet. The bullet didn't kill him (or even slow him) - he jumped off a railway bridge.

[FergusonTO35]

I don't think you gain much from +p through a snubnose, on average. Try 3 grains Bullseye under pretty much any 148-160 grain boolit and be happy!

[VariableRecall]

I don't think you gain much from +p through a snubnose, on average. Try 3 grains Bullseye under pretty much any 148-160 grain boolit and be happy!

That's what I've been trying to tell him, to be honest! You're only getting about 100 or so extra FPS for a lot more risk to your revolver, excessive recoil, and a lot less fun. I still have some wadcutters that I'd love for him to try out and see what he thinks of them.

I have a mold for 110gn SWC's that are quite tempting to try out in my own revolver or his snubbies if we get some more lead. I'd rather do my best to show him the wide variety of loadings you can use in .38 special.

[VariableRecall]

Have him compare the 140WC loads to the 158LSWC loads.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#38spl

Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, he's somewhat distrustful of probably the most comprehensive defensive ammo study I've seen.

The take I get from the article is that you could get very effective defensive ammunition from even mundane boolit types like wadcutters and HP SWC's. It's quite impressive what even something as simple as Wadcutters can do for you.

[Petrol & Powder]

Your friend with the broken press and unknown powder doesn't sound like he's mechanically inclined or observant.

As for the Model 85, that is the one gun that Taurus seems to have done right. I've seen many of them solider on for years. As for the 1988 cutoff date, I don't know what that's based on but I've seen several pre-1988 model 85's that are still going strong.
That gun is capable of handling +P ammunition but I see no sense in practicing with +P rounds. The important point to trigger time is to use the same weight bullet all the time but there's no need to beat up the gun just to practice.
And while we're on the topic of +P and 38 Special, this is a distinction that gets over played . Standard pressure 38 Special is 17K psi and +P is 20K psi. While there is a difference in maximum allowable pressures, it's not as dramatic as people often portray it.
For some perspective, 9mm Luger has a max limit of 35K psi and 45 ACP is 21K.

[Thumbcocker]

Not sure if it covers period tactics but there is a video from 1939 iirc of the Los Angeles County sheriff's department shooting range that is great. It shows lots of period revolvers and shooting as well as boolit casting. It was a state of the art facility at the time with bullseye and combat courses. It is a silent film but has good captions. I highly recommend it.

[charlie b]

Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, he's somewhat distrustful of probably the most comprehensive defensive ammo study I've seen.

The take I get from the article is that you could get very effective defensive ammunition from even mundane boolit types like wadcutters and HP SWC's. It's quite impressive what even something as simple as Wadcutters can do for you.

Yep, sometimes you can lead them to water but you can't make them drink.

[VariableRecall]

Your friend with the broken press and unknown powder doesn't sound like he's mechanically inclined or observant.

He got the press when he was a good deal younger and attempted reloading without anyone to help him out or show him the ropes. I'd say he's a reloader in waiting. These days, his life is a lot better and he's matured quite a bit. He's still rather stubbornly insistent on using +P rounds for training. But I'm thinking that if anything, it's going to be a method to train with beefy loads from a snubby without having to expend fancy defensive ammo.

From those tests at LuckyGunner, it seems to me that even plain old lead shaped the right way can go toe to toe with all those fancy bullet types out there.

[rkrcpa]

Your friend with the broken press and unknown powder doesn't sound like he's mechanically inclined or observant.

As for the Model 85, that is the one gun that Taurus seems to have done right. I've seen many of them solider on for years. As for the 1988 cutoff date, I don't know what that's based on but I've seen several pre-1988 model 85's that are still going strong.
That gun is capable of handling +P ammunition but I see no sense in practicing with +P rounds.

The 1988 date corresponds roughly with the addition of the shrouded barrel.

I have a M85 I purchased in 1985 that is the old style unshrouded barrel. Mine is not +P rated

https://i.imgur.com/idXStnw.jpg

A buddy of mine bought the shrouded variety some time after that and his was +P rated.

[VariableRecall]

The 1988 date corresponds roughly with the addition of the shrouded barrel.

I have a M85 I purchased in 1985 that is the old style unshrouded barrel. Mine is not +P rated

A buddy of mine bought the shrouded variety some time after that and his was +P rated.

Nice Piece! Is that a Tyler Manufacturing T-Grip on it? Recently got a T-Grip for my 10-5 and now I can use the thinner grips a lot easier with double action.
Either way, the Taurus 85 looks like a solid piece either way. It seems to me a strange mixture of Colt and S&W design features that were likely cribbed to get the best practices of both manufacturers.

[Winger Ed.]

It'll handle +P, but it's like driving your car at 120 mph.
It'll do it, but it will last a lot longer if ya keep it under 80 most of the time.

Let your conscience be your guide on the reloading;
but it sounds your buddy needs to just go buy a .357Mag rather than make his own out of a .38Spec.

It's your deal---- but messing around with an unknown powder can get real exciting.

[VariableRecall]

It's your deal---- but messing around with an unknown powder can get real exciting.

It's not wholly unknown powder. He just doesn't know off the top of his head what the powder was. It's been years since he tried to get anything running. I'll have to look at it personally and double check what it was. It's more like his entire reloading endeavors started off when he was younger on the wrong foot and he put them entirely on hold for years as the rest of his life happened in between. He's about the same age as I am, so fairly young compared to most demographics on this forum.

[Outpost75]

While the Taurus 85 will handle limited amounts of +P, I doubt that it would hold up to +P if fed them as a steady diet.

I would consider only factory-loaded +P for self defense carry, limited to about 100 rounds spread over the life of the gun, and let him buy his own factory defense ammo. The Speer Gold Dot 135-grain Short Barrel is a good load. Limiting the use of +P to factory loads is important because I know of NO practicing US gunsmith who will even work on a Taurus, so you are limited to their warranty service, which likely excludes any use of handloads, so you have the famous Catch 22 unless you lie.

Otherwise for his practice and recreational shooting I would load for him only standard-pressure loads, such as a 146-grain double-end wadcutter loaded with 3.5 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup or 4 grains of HP38 or 231.

279233
If he would want to buy a general-purpose mold which is more speed-loader friendly, I would recommend the Accurate 36-142H loaded with the same charges to shoot closer to the sights on the Taurus than heavier bullets.

[rkrcpa]

Nice Piece! Is that a Tyler Manufacturing T-Grip on it? Recently got a T-Grip for my 10-5 and now I can use the thinner grips a lot easier with double action.

Yes, that is a T-Grip paired with a Barami Hip-Grip. It is a great combo for summertime Tshirt/shorts weather. Strangely, this combo is very comfortable in my XXXL hand.

[GasGuzzler]

If it is a J-sized 5-shot cylinder based on the Rossi design Taurus got when they acquired part of Rossi I would not use +P loads in it for regular use.

[VariableRecall]

While the Taurus 85 will handle limited amounts of +P, I doubt that it would hold up to +P if fed them as a steady diet.

I would consider only factory-loaded +P for self defense carry, limited to about 100 rounds spread over the life of the gun, and let him buy his own factory defense ammo. The Speer Gold Dot 135-grain Short Barrel is a good load. Limiting the use of +P to factory loads is important because I know of NO practicing US gunsmith who will even work on a Taurus, so you are limited to their warranty service, which likely excludes any use of handloads, so you have the famous Catch 22 unless you lie.

Otherwise for his practice and recreational shooting I would load for him only standard-pressure loads, such as a 146-grain double-end wadcutter loaded with 3.5 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup or 4 grains of HP38 or 231. If he would want to buy a general-purpose mold which is more speed-loader friendly, I would recommend the Accurate 36-142H loaded with the same charges to shoot closer to the sights on the Taurus than heavier bullets.

One thing which gives my friend a serious advantage is that he has a good pile of J-Words to put to use as well. I may have some cast 158gn boolits, but they don't seem well fit for a snubby.
Also, my friend has no casting supplies or paraphernalia, he's just running J-words with his reloading setup. Once again, that may be a symptom of when he had acquired the reloading setup in a time of plenty, but I hope that I can change his mind a bit about running cast.

[charlie b]

One might consider just providing some loads that are std 158gn loads. I would bet he can't tell the difference between those and his commercial self defense loads.

[Ed K]

I'll second pretty much all that has been said here. I'll also willingly "help" someone to reload that is a complete novice where I'm really the one confirming all the right steps under one condition: I show them how to properly charge the case and insist on them doing every one.

[VariableRecall]

I'll second pretty much all that has been said here. I'll also willingly "help" someone to reload that is a complete novice where I'm really the one confirming all the right steps under one condition: I show them how to properly charge the case and insist on them doing every one.

That's a reasonable thing to do. The good thing is that he has the reloading resources, with the exception of knowledge, which I would be happy to provide. I'll be happy to have him try out some of my loadings of .38 Special.

I do have a 110gn SWC Mold that I could use with .38 special as well. Looks like the load would bring the boolit to near 9mm speeds with around 4.2gn of Win 231. The boolit is rather stubby and would be a little tricky in my opinion to seat compared to a 158gn SWC.

[onelight]

There is nothing wrong with 158 grain cast in short barrels if they hit where you aim try some.

[poppy42]

Variablerecall,
Look How far you have come grasshopper! I cannot speak for the strength and durability of any Taurus firearm. I have never owned one and quite honestly I probably never will. I will say that I very very rarely reload for someone else. I would certainly never reload max loads, or worse +P ammunition! Forget the potential liabilities, is it really worth The weight on your conscience should, God for bid, something go wrong? It’s one thing to experiment with hot loads for yourself, for your own use. But to do that for someone else, in my opinion, it’s not a good idea. I have known reloaders who have been reloading for many many years suddenly wind up with an issue with a load they’re developing. Had it not been for their years of experience and their ability to catch a problem A possible catastrophic situation might have developed. A relatively new reloader such as yourself might not have caught the issue. The decision is ultimately yours to make. If I was in your shoes I would tell my friend very politely sorry but I don’t reload for anyone but myself! I just couldn’t live with myself if something went wrong and I even thought I had anything to do with it! Now with all that being said why don’t you simply tell your friend you’d be more than happy to show him how to reload based on your level of experience and let him develop his own plus P ammunition if that’s what he so chooses to do!
Hope this helps.
Just trying to look out for you.
Take care
Poppy42

[VariableRecall]

Variablerecall,
Look How far you have come grasshopper! I cannot speak for the strength and durability of any Taurus firearm. I have never owned one and quite honestly I probably never will. I will say that I very very rarely reload for someone else. I would certainly never reload max loads, or worse +P ammunition! Forget the potential liabilities, is it really worth The weight on your conscience should, God for bid, something go wrong? It’s one thing to experiment with hot loads for yourself, for your own use. But to do that for someone else, in my opinion, it’s not a good idea. I have known reloaders who have been reloading for many many years suddenly wind up with an issue with a load they’re developing. Had it not been for their years of experience and their ability to catch a problem A possible catastrophic situation might have developed. A relatively new reloader such as yourself might not have caught the issue. The decision is ultimately yours to make. If I was in your shoes I would tell my friend very politely sorry but I don’t reload for anyone but myself! I just couldn’t live with myself if something went wrong and I even thought I had anything to do with it! Now with all that being said why don’t you simply tell your friend you’d be more than happy to show him how to reload based on your level of experience and let him develop his own plus P ammunition if that’s what he so chooses to do!
Hope this helps.
Just trying to look out for you.
Take care
Poppy42

Thanks buddy! I think I may show him the ropes and let him decide how much magic dust he wants to put in his .38 Special.

[poppy42]

Thanks buddy! I think I may show him the ropes and let him decide how much magic dust he wants to put in his .38 Special.
I think that Would be a very good idea!
Take care,
Be safe,
And above all have fun!

[VariableRecall]

I think that Would be a very good idea!
Take care,
Be safe,
And above all have fun!

I'm just glad that I can be someone my friends can reach out to in their own age range for reloading experience. Well, I can only get more experience, I suppose!

[rmcc]

85's are a nice light weight carry gun. That is my wife's carry gun. She prefers the S&W 60 but she saves the Smith and carries the Taurus. I have shot both in the "Dick Tracy" match at the gunclub. Shooting standard 158 gr RN lead bullets, I much prefer the weight of the Smith. Accuracy with both was not bad.

[VariableRecall]

85's are a nice light weight carry gun. That is my wife's carry gun. She prefers the S&W 60 but she saves the Smith and carries the Taurus. I have shot both in the "Dick Tracy" match at the gunclub. Shooting standard 158 gr RN lead bullets, I much prefer the weight of the Smith. Accuracy with both was not bad.

If he were to get a Model 60 in the future, would it be able to withstand a steady diet of .38 Special +P's? Or, perhaps a steady diet of mid-power .357 would be better on its frame overall?

[Mk42gunner]

I don't remember when S&W actually approved some, not all, J frames for +P usage, but there are a lot out there that are not. Realistically, it isn't a lot of fun shooting hot loads out of small handguns.

Robert

[onelight]

If he wants a steady diet of +P a Ruger SP101 might be the best choice.

[VariableRecall]

If he wants a steady diet of +P a Ruger SP101 might be the best choice.

I suppose if he's brand agnostic that seems like a solid choice to me. Beefy enough to get the job done and a good track record of fulfilling their warranties.

[Bazoo]

Ruger has no stated warranty. But they generally will fix your gun.

I think a lot of gun owners are suck on one thing or another, whether it's +P ammo, glocks, magnum rifles, or lever guns. I've been that way. I was stuck on 357 magnum a few years. Now I'm on a big bore kick.

Take some of your normal 38 special ammo and shoot with him. He will enjoy shooting regular ammo as opposed to none. Tell him you don't have the experience required to make +P ammo yet, and that won't be a lie really.

[VariableRecall]

Ruger has no stated warranty. But they generally will fix your gun.

I think a lot of gun owners are suck on one thing or another, whether it's +P ammo, glocks, magnum rifles, or lever guns. I've been that way. I was stuck on 357 magnum a few years. Now I'm on a big bore kick.

Take some of your normal 38 special ammo and shoot with him. He will enjoy shooting regular ammo as opposed to none. Tell him you don't have the experience required to make +P ammo yet, and that won't be a lie really.

If he's insistent on me making a +P Load, I think I may instead make a series of loads where I increase the charge by .2 grains every 5 rounds, starting from my general load for 158gn boolits, 3.8gn, and ending at the edge of +P, 4.8. That way, he can try a cylinder of increasingly strong recoiling ammo and see what he thinks of it.

This loading can be tuned if he's got light J-Words on hand, obviously, but that's what I do if we had to use my Cast Boolits in my inventory.

[racepres]

If he's insistent on me making a +P Load, I think I may instead make a series of loads where I increase the charge by .2 grains every 5 rounds, starting from my general load for 158gn boolits, 3.8gn, and ending at the edge of +P, 4.8. That way, he can try a cylinder of increasingly strong recoiling ammo and see what he thinks of it.

This loading can be tuned if he's got light J-Words on hand, obviously, but that's what I do if we had to use my Cast Boolits in my inventory.

Make Sure you are shooting at a Reasonable target...and slip an empty chamber in, toward the end... Should be fun!!!

[zarrinvz24]

At one point in the past I had a 2” S&W model 19-2 and even when firing anemic Magtech .357, it was painful. Today I have a 2” Python and it isn’t much better. The trick isn’t how much power is inherent to the cartridge, but rather to be able to hit what one is aiming at. That is how you read about Elmer Keith’s friend that liked to hunt black bears with a .25 Stevens rimfire revolver.

[Bazoo]

Working up to max like that is always what you should do.

[jim147]

I have a Taurus .357 that I don't carry much but when I do I carry standard.38 Special semiwadcutters in. Why? I can hit exactly where I aim every time.

If he can hit with the factory +P every single time maybe he can load some for practice, but until he can do that what is the point?

I should have said when he can hit with regular .38 loads everytime.

[Bazoo]

I carried a smith 642 for a while. I could hit pretty good with it. Didn't see much difference between regular and +P ammo as it kicked pretty sharp with both. When I carried it, I could hit a 6" plate at 25 yards and my 2/3 IPSC out past 50.

I don't take to the notion that +P ammo is going to be harder to hit with, nor that folks can't hit with a snubby.

[charlie b]

Find out what his preferred defense load is. Determine recoil here.

https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi

Use 158gn LSWC and see what velocity it needs to be for same recoil.

[VariableRecall]

At one point in the past I had a 2” S&W model 19-2 and even when firing anemic Magtech .357, it was painful. Today I have a 2” Python and it isn’t much better. The trick isn’t how much power is inherent to the cartridge, but rather to be able to hit what one is aiming at. That is how you read about Elmer Keith’s friend that liked to hunt black bears with a .25 Stevens rimfire revolver.

I'm actually reading through Elmer Keith's "Sixguns" on Kindle right now! It's an excellent read and has a lot of tips that still hold up very well today. Not to mention, it's a window into a very interesting time in the "handgun meta" so to speak.

[VariableRecall]

Find out what his preferred defense load is. Determine recoil here.

https://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi

Use 158gn LSWC and see what velocity it needs to be for same recoil.

Using some very rough estimates of my Model 10's weight and assuming that my revolver was +P Capable, It looks like if I were jump from my standard loading for 158gn boolits, and jump it to approximately +P levels, it would have almost double the recoil energy. Yikes!

I find that a 158gn SWC boolit with 3.8gn of Win231 is my favorite loading for my Model 10. Recoil is plenty controllable at that loading and it generally matches the factory loads I've been using.

[eb in oregon]

I have a Model 85 Taurus in .38 special. A +p 158gr load is not particularly pleasant to shoot, nor is accuracy the greatest.

I have my best luck with it in normal 38 pressures using a 125gr bullet. In fact I like a 125gr wadcutter at normal velocities (as in not a slow target round).

In reading through this thread your comment especially struck home. While I too would hesitate in loading ammunition for anybody of higher pressures than generally required I've also had a Taurus Model 85. And shooting standard velocity 158 grain .38 Special loads was painful. Shooting a full cylinder load was to be avoided. That's one of those exercises that leave the finger bloody after that cylinder load was fired. I also once had one of those S&W titanium framed seven shot .357's. It did the same thing. Shooting a 158 grain RNFP .38 Special bullet at about 950 fps left the trigger finger bleeding. I refused to shoot .357's through it. And it was magna-ported. Sold it for more than it cost me. Stout loads in light handguns are something to be avoided, it's a fine way to develop a flinch.

[VariableRecall]

In reading through this thread your comment especially struck home. While I too would hesitate in loading ammunition for anybody of higher pressures than generally required I've also had a Taurus Model 85. And shooting standard velocity 158 grain .38 Special loads was painful. Shooting a full cylinder load was to be avoided. That's one of those exercises that leave the finger bloody after that cylinder load was fired. I also once had one of those S&W titanium framed seven shot .357's. It did the same thing. Shooting a 148 grain .38 Special bullet at about 950 fps left the trigger finger bleeding. I refused to shoot .357's through it. And it was magna-ported. Sold it for more than it cost me. Stout loads in light handguns are something to be avoided, it's a fine way to develop a flinch.

Well if anything, it will teach my friend a valuable lesson. I could also have him try out my longer, heavier revolver with my own standard loadings well below the +P threshold, and see how much easier the same loading is to use with the larger piece.

I think he may be a little over-confident of his own abilities. Being humbled a little is part of the process of getting better.

[Mk42gunner]

I think he may be a little over-confident of his own abilities.

Speaking as a former Small Arms Markmanship Instructor, this describes at least 75% of young males in the US. Especially when it comes to handgun marksmanship.

Funny thing is the young women I taught weren't nearly as macho about their ability to shoot a pistol.

Robert

[VariableRecall]

Speaking as a former Small Arms Markmanship Instructor, this describes at least 75% of young males in the US. Especially when it comes to handgun marksmanship.

Funny thing is the young women I taught weren't nearly as macho about their ability to shoot a pistol.

Robert

I just know that my slow-fire and faster paced double action shooting gives me about the same groups. I can only get better, I suppose.

[Mk42gunner]

Yes with practice, attention to details, and a couple of truck loads of expended ammo.

There really aren't many shortcuts to being an accurate shot.

Robert

[charlie b]

Speaking as a former Small Arms Markmanship Instructor, this describes at least 75% of young males in the US. Especially when it comes to handgun marksmanship.

Funny thing is the young women I taught weren't nearly as macho about their ability to shoot a pistol.

Robert

And the women are usually better than the men. :)

[Petrol & Powder]

And the women are usually better than the men. :)

I've taught men & women to shoot and by far, the women were easier to teach and often better shooters in the end.