C.E. Harris original 7.62 NEI 52A drawing

[Wm Cook]

Would anyone have a drawing of the original C.E. Harris NEI 7.62 design bullet?

I’m looking to have a single cavity brass or iron mold made to Harris’s original specifications. This is my first custom mold and I’ve heard names like Accurate and Arsenal but I have zero experience with custom mold makers.

Yes I would much prefer a multiple cavity mold but I’m looking for 75% of my drops to be +/- .1 grain and then weight sorted, loaded and shot +/- .0.

I’m getting into postal matches and after the 7.62 Ruger bolt gun there will be a Rem 700 varmint in .308 and it will be used for similar competition.

Thanks, Cookie.

P.S. I already have a 6 cavity Lee C312-155-2R.

___________

Background information

PRACTICAL DOPE ON THE 7.62x39
By C.E. Harris - UPDATED 3-27-94

The only common cast bullet designs which are correct for my original NEI designs for this caliber are the Lee .312-155-2R and TL.312-160-2R. The latter two are adaptations of my original NEI design with minor changes to suit Lee's manufacturing process,and to change the appearance slightly so the Lee version would have a distinct "product identity." Now that NEI is back in business (51583 Columbia River Hwy., Scappoose, OR 97056) Walt Melander can provide my original 52A design with its 1-1/2-degree tapered forepart or a stepped-diameter design similar to Lee's adaption, but with a
blunter nose shape which is better for hunting. Accuracy-wise there is no difference between them.

[Outpost75]

Not Ed's original NEI drawing, but modern clones you can buy of the shelf which are based upon it:

278961278962

[Wm Cook]

Thanks. Both look like they drop at .311. I bore slug at ~.3100 so it would be close. I guess I was hoping to find the Sierra Matchking of 7.62x39 in a cast bullet. So far only the C312-155-2R from Lee looks like it should be tried. And I can’t find a drawing of the Lee either.

Has anyone even seen a picture of the an original C.E. Harris NEI 52A? Could you tell me if it was RN or FP? Thanks.

[Wayne Smith]

Does someone still have Walt's catalog? Drawings in that were to scale.

[lotech]

Thanks. Both look like they drop at .311. I bore slug at ~.3100 so it would be close. I guess I was hoping to find the Sierra Matchking of 7.62x39 in a cast bullet. So far only the C312-155-2R from Lee looks like it should be tried. And I can’t find a drawing of the Lee either.

Has anyone even seen a picture of the an original C.E. Harris NEI 52A? Could you tell me if it was RN or FP? Thanks.

I'm not positive we're talking about the same bullet. The C.E. Harris design for the NEI SKS bullet is a kind of semi-roundnose, not quite as round as a true roundnose. In fact, it looks like it has the beginning of a point. Perhaps not the best description, but I have none of these cast up and don't know how to do photos on here anyway. I bought a mould from Walt Melander not long after these became available, long before Lee made one. Good accurate bullet and I worked with it extensively, but that was some years ago. I never really cared for the crude SKS guns and got rid of the two I had, but, as I recall, this bullet shot well in a couple of Ruger (limited production for Davidson's) stainless MKII 77s.

I prefer a heavier bullet in the 7.62x39, around 200 grains, and stopped using the NEI design but still have the mould. I never tried the Lee version, it may work just as well as the NEI but I doubt it's any better. I don't recall ever seeing a detailed diagram of this bullet that included specs, only the drawing from the NEI catalog.

There's a writeup using this bullet and load data in HANDLOADER #177.

[Wm Cook]

Wayne's right. The two are different designs.

Attached are two pictures. The picture on the left is identified in Handloader 177 as the NEI 155 GC which may be the original C.E. Harris 52A design. Next to it is the NEI .311-155 side by side with the current Lee C-312-155. The weight of the NEI shows 166g in Handloader 177 and cast from what may be pure Pb. My Lee 6 cavity c.312-155-2R drops at about 152g with 90-5-5.

So like Wayne said, they are two different bullets with the weight being one difference, the diameter another and possibly the olgive to base is greater on the NEI than the Lee. What comes out of my Lee C312-155 reaches push back/jam depth with the gas check in the neck with my Ruger bolt gun. It also clears the Ruger magazine and still allows me .030 to go deeper into the case away from the lands with the gas check still in the neck.

Only measuring would tell if the NEI's olgive would put the gas check into the case. But if the gas check on the Harris/NEI stayed in the neck and if it dropped at .312 I would love to shoot them side by side to see what the accuracy difference is.

Another twist is that when the NEI was produced Ruger was barreling the 7.62 @ .308. Thus the NEI mold is stated as being .311. Current production Ruger's are in the .310 range (at least my two are) and the original NEI mold may cast too small of a diameter. I know I'm splitting hairs here but I'm after accuracy with a 7.62 bullet in a 7.62x39 chamber.

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[lotech]

Regarding the drawing of the #52A... I tried to buy such a mould from NEI at some point, don't remember when it was, but Walt said the cherry was damaged. I don't know whether he made another or not, but I never bought a mould. This design interested me as it was used by a winning CBA competitor, though I don't recall the cartridge.

The photos from HANDLOADER #177 were taken by me in about 1993 or 1994. The nose of the 311-155-GC design was described in my earlier post. I contacted Dick Beaulieu, Ruger's Customer Service Manager at the time, and he stated that these rifles had groove diameters of .310" to .311" and a 1 in 10"twist. As far as I know, these were the first bolt-action rifles Ruger made in 7.62x39. They were stainless guns with black Zytel stocks made in a run 3,000, all of which were made for and marketed by Davidson's. I bought two of them from Davidson's for testing and evaluation of cast bullet loads. After shooting the much more refined Rugers, it was easy to part with the two SKS guns that I started with in my first efforts to develop cast and jacketed loads for the 7.62x39 cartridge.

Some years later, Ruger marketed another version of this rifle, but I don't believe it was stainless and I have no idea if bore and twist specs were the same as the Davidson's guns.

[Wm Cook]

Lotech, first an apology. I though you were Wayne and referred to him in the earlier post. And Wayne, thanks for the tip on finding the drawing for the Harris design in one of Walt's catalog. I wish I could have met him. Sure wish I could find a drawing.

Lotech, it's an honor to meet you. And yes you were certainly right about the bullet shape. I've referred back to Handloader issue 177 many time these past few years. I even have a copy of the load data sheet that was in that article in each of the three ring binders I keep for the two 7.62's I have. Those three ring binders hold all of my load development data. Both 7.62's that I have are Ruger's. One's a bolt gun and the other's a Mini 30. The bullets that I've cued up include an MP 130g, the 155 Lee, 165g NOE, 184g NOE and a 200g Lyman. Lots of fun coming up. I wish you were closer so we could work on it together.

Today's Ruger's have the same bore and twist as you had. Ruger Customer Service told me last year that their bores run between .310 to .311. At the muzzle end mine slug at .3098 and .3010.

And if you ever come across it I'd really appreciate a copy of the drawing for the Harris 7.62 design. I won't sleep well until I have a mold cut to the original design. Tom at Accurate Mold can replicate it with the only exception is that the tip of the bullet would have a .18 meplat. I can live with that. Thanks again for all of the information. Bill.

[lotech]

Lotech, first an apology. I though you were Wayne and referred to him in the earlier post. And Wayne, thanks for the tip on finding the drawing for the Harris design in one of Walt's catalog. I wish I could have met him. Sure wish I could find a drawing.

Lotech, it's an honor to meet you. And yes you were certainly right about the bullet shape. I've referred back to Handloader issue 177 many time these past few years. I even have a copy of the load data sheet that was in that article in each of the three ring binders I keep for the two 7.62's I have. Those three ring binders hold all of my load development data. Both 7.62's that I have are Ruger's. One's a bolt gun and the other's a Mini 30. The bullets that I've cued up include an MP 130g, the 155 Lee, 165g NOE, 184g NOE and a 200g Lyman. Lots of fun coming up. I wish you were closer so we could work on it together.

Today's Ruger's have the same bore and twist as you had. Ruger Customer Service told me last year that their bores run between .310 to .311. At the muzzle end mine slug at .3098 and .3010.

And if you ever come across it I'd really appreciate a copy of the drawing for the Harris 7.62 design. I won't sleep well until I have a mold cut to the original design. Tom at Accurate Mold can replicate it with the only exception is that the tip of the bullet would have a .18 meplat. I can live with that. Thanks again for all of the information. Bill.

Certainly no apology necessary. I just checked and I still have an NEI catalog from when Walt Melander ran the business. While the catalog has drawn depictions of bullet designs, there are no specs, only mold numbers, bullet diameters, and nominal bullet weights. Whether the drawings are to scale or not, I don't know, but I'll bet they're fairly close.

I did a lot of work with 7.62x39 for quite a while but seldom even shoot the cartridge anymore. I've pretty much lost intertest in it. The ammo I have loaded up is my favorite, but didn't discover it until about ten years ago. I had Eric Ohlen hollowpoint a #314299 mould; weight with a gas check cast from ww alloy is about 200 grains and I run it through a .311" die. What I think is a maximum charge of H4895 gives a muzzle velocity of just over 1700 fps. Very accurate, but a maximum charge of TAC will give about the same muzzle velocity with slightly less accuracy. Sighted a couple of inches high at 100 yards gives a 200 yard drop of around 6"- 8" as I recall. I never really figured out what the 7.62x39 is good for, but it was enjoyable to do extensive work with it years ago.

[Wm Cook]

What a coincidence. My 200 grain Lyman is a 311299 and it drops at ~ .3118 - .3122 so it sizes in my .311 die. 1700fps with a 200 grain hollow point would pack a punch.

And if you ever could figure how I could get a look at the picture of the 311-155-GC from Walt’s catalog I would appreciate it. Worse case I would see if Tom could take what pictures I can give him, copy the Lee C312-155 bullet from the olgive to the shank and draw up a new front end to the shape of the 311-155GC using his .180 metplat. And maybe I’ll leave a post on the CBA forum to see if I can find out anything. Tom believes Mr Harris still frequents both forums.

Smarter people than me opined about the value of the 7.62 but to me it looks to be a fun versatile cartridge. Anything that can shoot 100 to 200 grains, sub and super sonic can give someone a lot of fun. What firearm I buy is based on how many hours of enjoyment it’ll gives me.

But right now my interest is focused on the bolt gun and to see how accurate I can get it to shoot. As I’m sure you are, I’m solid on my bench techniques and my load development. The former is a learned behavior and the latter is simply gathering up the material and organizing the variables.

Isn’t that often the case? We play chess in our mind with powders, seating depth, bullet designs and such. CBA competition is the next natural step.

So I’ll continue to look for a drawing of the 311-155-GC. Just because it’s fun. Thanks for the conversation. Bill.

[Wm Cook]

Just to keep things current I got this reply on the CBA site from Ed Harris.

"I no longer have the original drawing, since it was created in an early version of AutoCAD which was on a old 286 computer which went away long ago. When Lee produced the mold they modified my design to suit their manufacturing process and to make a pointier bullets which more closely resembled ball ammo because they thought that "looked better" for marketing to the mall ninjas and Walter Mitty types.
The Heavy Metal aka Molon Labe version [no longer in business] is closest to my original design, is very well proven accuracy-wise from the 7.62x39 through full-charge loads over 2400 fps which cycle the Garand. This is the actual mold I use and would be my choice for a boltgun to be chambered in the SAAMI or CIP dimensions.

A full-diameter nose north of the crimp groove and tapered nose, well supported and a close fit in the origin of rifling are the key design points.
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The Accurate and NOE versions are also good and have my "blessing". Accurate's boring process requires the larger meplat, but I feel that is better for a hunting bullet which feeds well in most rifles
The NOE version has a smaller meplat for better feeding in the SKS and SK rifles, and Swede also produces the mold in various diameters as needed to fit the foreign milsurps which run large.
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[Wayne Smith]

Certainly no apology necessary. I just checked and I still have an NEI catalog from when Walt Melander ran the business. While the catalog has drawn depictions of bullet designs, there are no specs, only mold numbers, bullet diameters, and nominal bullet weights. Whether the drawings are to scale or not, I don't know, but I'll bet they're fairly close.

I did a lot of work with 7.62x39 for quite a while but seldom even shoot the cartridge anymore. I've pretty much lost intertest in it. The ammo I have loaded up is my favorite, but didn't discover it until about ten years ago. I had Eric Ohlen hollowpoint a #314299 mould; weight with a gas check cast from ww alloy is about 200 grains and I run it through a .311" die. What I think is a maximum charge of H4895 gives a muzzle velocity of just over 1700 fps. Very accurate, but a maximum charge of TAC will give about the same muzzle velocity with slightly less accuracy. Sighted a couple of inches high at 100 yards gives a 200 yard drop of around 6"- 8" as I recall. I never really figured out what the 7.62x39 is good for, but it was enjoyable to do extensive work with it years ago.

When I talked to him over the phone when ordering a mold he told me the pictures were drawn to scale so a customer could easily scale up or down any in his catalog. I don't know if it is 1-1, i.e. full size, or what the scale was but that should be easy to check. I believe Walt was a qualified engineer and clearly knew his business.