38 special

[redriverhunter]

I got me a charter arms 38 special with a two inch barrel. I have quite a few bags of win 125 jhp. I have a lot of bullseye powder so I am thinking about making a self defense loads. I am looking at 4.4 gns of b.e.. do you all think I will have it going fast enough to expand? I noticed charter arms does not recommend +p round in the 2 inch barrels, because there is not enough barrel to make use of the +p
thanks rrh

[Cargo]

This is the reason I bought the wife a few boxes of the Speer 110s for short barrels and I'm loading her 148gr WCs. I don't have to worry about the WCs clogging and not expanding and they're going to poke holes in all the important things. Recoil is light and she can rattle them right onto target from her airweight.

[charlie b]

Winchester Silver Tips or copper jacketed? If copper jacketed it is probably a crap shoot as to whether or not you will get them to expand. I'd just load them to normal vel for practice rounds.

For defense loads I'd either get 158 SWC bullets or go the lightweight route. If available then buy some commercial self defense ammo made for the .38spl.

Some good info:

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#38spl

[BKS]

Wadcutters have a great reputation in 2” j frames by people that have put bullets into humans.
The Airweight that is my constant companion is loaded with wadcutters.

[Petrol & Powder]

redriverhunter, not enough information.

What KIND of 125 gr JHP ?
And I'm not sure I agree with, "I noticed charter arms does not recommend +p round in the 2 inch barrels, because there is not enough barrel to make use of the +p" . Whether or not Charter Arms rates their gun for +P probably has more to do with the strength of the gun than with the length of the barrel. You may be jumping to a conclusion as to WHY Charter Arms assigns a particular pressure rating.

A 125gr JHP and 4.4 grains of Bullseye will probably bring you in just under +P, however, one of my Speer Manuals shows the STARTING load for a Standard pressure load (non +P) with a 125gr JHP at 4.5 grains of Bullseye and warns to NOT reduce that charge.

I always consider bullet expansion to just be the icing on the cake. I always strive for good terminal performance and don't really care what the bullet looks like when the shooting stops. Some people spend half their life trying to turn bullets into perfect mushrooms, I think there are better criteria to seek.

[Petrol & Powder]

And by the way, Charter Arms doesn't Recommend the use of +P ammunition in their aluminum framed guns chambered in 38 Special (Undercover and Off-Duty models) but I don't believe they specifically forbid the use of +P ammunition in those guns.

[racepres]

Is penetration/over penetration a concern??
Personally, have never used Jacketed projectiles in 38Spl

[rintinglen]

LAPD for years issued Remington 125 grain +P JHP "controlled expansion" rounds with excellent results.

The notion that WC ammo is a better stopper is misguided. In 1978, a suspect at the San Ysidro Border Cross Point was shot over 13 times, including 5 times with 148 wadcutters. According to the coroner, there was no perceptible difference between the 158 RN wounds and the 148 Wadcutter wounds.

[pettypace]

The notion that WC ammo is a better stopper is misguided. In 1978, a suspect at the San Ysidro Border Cross Point was shot over 13 times, including 5 times with 148 wadcutters. According to the coroner, there was no perceptible difference between the 158 RN wounds and the 148 Wadcutter wounds.

Maybe... But Hatcher, Fackler, and some center-shot small critters indicate that the WC out-performs the LRN.

My own experience is limited. But in Clear Ballistic gel, the WC makes a much bigger entrance hole and a slightly (but perceptively) bigger wound path. I don't know how that translates to coroners' reports, but I do have a lot of faith in Hatcher and Fackler.

For a defense load in a .38 snubby, I'd prefer a target WC over a LRN and most any home-grown JHP load.

[Dale53]

Redriverhunter;
As far as I am concerned, THIS is the answer:

https://www.grantcunningham.com/2011/11/ed-harris-revisiting-the-full-charge-wadcutter/

Dale53

P.S. If you are not interested in using reloads for self defense, then, again, THE answer is the FBI load (158gr Hollow Point .38 Special) loaded by one of the Factories. However, good luck today in finding ANY ammo much less a specific load.

FWIW
Dale53

[Dunross]

I load 125gr wadcutters for my wife's 38 snubby. She can control them and very importantly they shoot to point of aim. I was having a hard time finding a factory 158gr load that would do that.

[JoeJames]

redriverhunter, not enough information.

What KIND of 125 gr JHP ?
And I'm not sure I agree with, "I noticed charter arms does not recommend +p round in the 2 inch barrels, because there is not enough barrel to make use of the +p" . Whether or not Charter Arms rates their gun for +P probably has more to do with the strength of the gun than with the length of the barrel. You may be jumping to a conclusion as to WHY Charter Arms assigns a particular pressure rating.

A 125gr JHP and 4.4 grains of Bullseye will probably bring you in just under +P, however, one of my Speer Manuals shows the STARTING load for a Standard pressure load (non +P) with a 125gr JHP at 4.5 grains of Bullseye and warns to NOT reduce that charge.

I always consider bullet expansion to just be the icing on the cake. I always strive for good terminal performance and don't really care what the bullet looks like when the shooting stops. Some people spend half their life trying to turn bullets into perfect mushrooms, I think there are better criteria to seek.
From my own personal experience there is a very good reason Speer warned “not to reduce that charge” with a J-word. It takes a bunch more pressure to get a J-word boolit to even exit the barrel as opposed to a lead boolit. In other words you might end up with it lodged near the end of the barrel. Firing the next round could make things rather a problem. And a jhp would not expand anyway but would have the same effect as a lead round nose. A lead wad cutter or a lead semi-wadcutter would have a much broader meplat than the jhp or a lead round nose.

[Outpost75]

The Speer warning on not reducing the minimum charges with Bullseye when using jacketed bullets is with respect to bullet-in-bore malfunctions, or BIB, in which a cylinder gap larger than "mean assembly tolerance" may result in a bullet failing to exit the barrel, such that it remains as an obstruction.

This problem was very well documented with Army M41 Ball 130-grain FMJ cartridges fired in older S&W Victory Model revolvers having cylinder gaps which approached the field reject maximum of pass 0.008"/hold 0.009".

BIBs are less common in 2-inch barrels, but VERY common in 4 inchers which are loose. Hence, the warning.

My experience has been that most .38 Special JHP bullets do not expand appreciably below about 850 fps. The notable exception is the Speer 135 grain Gold Dot "Short Barrel" loads which expand reliably at 800 fps., attainable within standard pressure from 2-inch barrel guns assembled to Mean Assembly Tolerance of pass 0.005"/hold 0.006" using 4.3-4.4 grains of Bullseye.

[dverna]

Redriverhunter;
As far as I am concerned, THIS is the answer:

https://www.grantcunningham.com/2011/11/ed-harris-revisiting-the-full-charge-wadcutter/

Dale53

P.S. If you are not interested in using reloads for self defense, then, again, THE answer is the FBI load (158gr Hollow Point .38 Special) loaded by one of the Factories. However, good luck today in finding ANY ammo much less a specific load.

FWIW
Dale53

That was a great article by someone who has more than keyboard experience. Thanks for posting it!

[Drm50]

In 80s I had 5 customers bulge barrels with 1/2 jacket pistol bullets. 357, 44 and 45- S&W, Colt and Ruger. All results of light loads that threw cores and left 1/2 jacket in bore.

[Prairie Cowboy]

LAPD for years issued Remington 125 grain +P JHP "controlled expansion" rounds with excellent results.

The notion that WC ammo is a better stopper is misguided. In 1978, a suspect at the San Ysidro Border Cross Point was shot over 13 times, including 5 times with 148 wadcutters. According to the coroner, there was no perceptible difference between the 158 RN wounds and the 148 Wadcutter wounds.

I am certainly no expert in ballistics, but it stands to reason that a wide metplat imparts more hydrostatic shock than a RN bullet. So, while the apparent permanent physical damage to the tissue may appear the same afterwards, perhaps the wadcutters are more effective on impact.

[TNsailorman]

If you want a truly damaging load, try loading a 148 HBWC bullet backwards with the hollow base nose first. Shoot a 1 gallon water jug and watch what happens. I loaded some for a couple of Sheriff's deputies back in the 60's for after hours carry in snub nose revolvers. They both loved them until the Sheriff found out about them and said NO in plain language. I think he was worried about lawsuits by surviving family members. My old supplier retired and then passed away so I don't currently have someone to buy them from. I need to load some more of them for my wife's Mode 15 and my Model 13.
Anybody? james

[Petrol & Powder]

The backwards loaded hollow base wadcutter is an urban legend that refuses to die.
I tested that concoction and it did not impress me. I believe it is one of those things that persists because the "ingredients" to make it are readily available and everyone thinks it is some type of super secret hack that has been suppressed.

At any distance beyond about 7 yards, the accuracy is horrible. When driven at any type of useful velocity, the skirt either breaks away and deprives the slug of needed mass or folds back on itself.

This is one of those ideas that looks good at first glance (gee that would make a huge hollowpoint) but then you ask, "why hasn't someone duplicated this"?

[rfd]

Better to load wadcutters for SD. :)

[Goldstar225]

The backwards loaded hollow base wadcutter is an urban legend that refuses to die.
I tested that concoction and it did not impress me. I believe it is one of those things that persists because the "ingredients" to make it are readily available and everyone thinks it is some type of super secret hack that has been suppressed.

At any distance beyond about 7 yards, the accuracy is horrible. When driven at any type of useful velocity, the skirt either breaks away and deprives the slug of needed mass or folds back on itself.

This is one of those ideas that looks good at first glance (gee that would make a huge hollowpoint) but then you ask, "why hasn't someone duplicated this"?

Agreed. I've been hearing this quoted for over 40 years. If the inverted HBWC was as good as is often claimed, every manufacturer would have it prominently placed in their line up.

[TNsailorman]

Sorry to disagree with you 2 guys but I have personal experience with this type load. It does work within the distance it is designed to work and that is 10 feet. It is a close up and personal load. Trouble is I think that most people who tried this load also tried to shoot +P or near +P loads with it. Won't work that way. Hold the velocity under 750pfs and it does very well. I tried it the first time with the old Speer swaged HBWC and it was too soft, being a swaged bullet. I found a guy in the late 60's who had a mold for the bullet and he poured me some bullets, about 200 with a slightly harder lead and it worked after I played with some loads to get it right. The revolver was a 4" barrel S&W Model 15. It will not penetrate as deep as a WC but then it does not need too. If being used as intended, 4 to 6 inches is all that is needed and if it comes apart during that penetration, the better. You have schrapnel in your target doing damage. I have put this up before and then pulled it down when the nay sayers started yelping but not this time. I know what I am talking about from actual experience. When I was young I liked to play around with different loads and since there were no effective hollow points for handguns back then, this was my answer to a need. Lee Juras(Super Vel) had the first effective hollow pointed bullets I ever tried. But that was around 1970 or so. His bullets forced Remington, Winchester and others to develope hollow points. I use modern hollow points myself now , but get it right and this load that I talked about will work and work well. I would prefer it to the old 200 grain Winchester police load that I used at one time.

[Petrol & Powder]

If the only potential adversary is an average sized human, wearing light clothing, standing upright, with their shoulders perfectly squared towards your gun.......then 4" - 6" of penetration might do the trick.

For those of use that understand that real world threats are not B27 paper targets, a bullet that penetrates a little deeper is seen as necessary.

When the projectile loses mass the resulting fragments do not continue to penetrate. The resulting projectiles do not retain enough mass to do an adequate job.

A solid wadcutter driven as fast as safely possible has the advantage of large frontal area and the ability to retain mass and penetrate sufficiently. The reverse loaded hollow base wadcutter looks intimidating but does not consistently perform well.

I completely agree that a reverse loaded HBWC will have very shallow penetration. I disagree with the statement , " 4 to 6 inches is all that is needed and if it comes apart during that penetration, the better."

[Norske]

A reversed hollow base wadcutter does serious damage to jackrabbits. Big exit hole, rabbit doesn't go far.

[redriverhunter]

I has taken me long enough, but I got some 148 gn WC loaded up with 3.5 gn of bullseye not a bad alot less recoil than I had anticipated. thanks all

[Drm50]

When I first fooled with a 455 Colt I was using cast HPs for 458 dia cartridges. I wanted bigger boolit than .456”. To get them close to 265gr original weight I was drilling out the HP. I had giant HP when done. Terrible accuracy even after filling HP with wax. I’ve run into same thing loading HBWC backwards. A WC is good defense bullet anyway. It’s simple and no frills, no surprises.

[Thumbcocker]

I have read about folks putting a gas check on the nose of the reversed hbwc. Absolutely no personal experience with it.

[Dale53]

In one single year, I was standing on the firing line when a shooter, using hollow base wadcutters loaded just a bit too hot, had the bullet separate in the barrel leaving the base in the barrel and a hole in the target. The next shot fired bulged two of the barrels, requiring replacement. The third one had the base sticking out the front of the barrel after the shot. I happened to see that and let out a yell, so the third barrel was not ruined.

After witnessing that multiple times, I resolved to quit using hollow based wadcutters in my own ammunition for reloading purposes. I had extensively tested a bunch of factory loads in a variety of handguns from a Ransom Rest when our club was running PPC matches "back in the day". We were connected to the local Police Dept. (who was a National PPC Champion one year) so had a lot of experience with PPC shooters.

I discovered that Winchester and Remington both were supplying near WONDERFUL target loads that would group as little as 5/8" six shot groups from the RR at 25 yards using a custom PPC revolver, as well as excellent factory revolvers. I could never quite get my home cast solid base wadcutters to shoot quite that well. However, my home cast solid base wadcutters, when matched to the throats would shoot close to the factory stuff. My best loads were 1/8"-1/4" larger at 25 yards. That was close enough for me that I "settled" on my home cast loads without the danger of gun damage when shooting tens of thousands of shots during that active period and later.

So, I am warning people to NOT load hot loads with factory hollow base wadcutter loads. I shoot a LOT Of Full Charge Wadcutters as outlined by Ed Harris in the above article with excellent accuracy and GREAT results in the field on small game. I also feel quite well armed when roaming the woods as well with these loads. They have proven effective on dangerous feral dog packs and would feel decently armed should I happen on an illegal Marijuana patch and have to defend my self against a two legged predator.

As to the effectiveness of a full charge wadcutter, Jim Cirillo, head of the New York Stakeout Squad, was an acquaintance of mine. I talked to him several times about the effectiveness of the full charge wadcutter on two legged predator control. He gave it "thumbs up" and while his chosen gun, when possible, was a twelve gauge shotgun, he often carried his duty revolver loaded with .38 Special full charge wadcutters as they WERE affective.

FWIW
Dale53

[ddixie884]

I'm with you, Dale..........