Subsonic 55 grain 223.

[Hills of texas]

I’m still relatively new to casting and learning something new every time I cast rounds. Last month I shot an axis deer with a subsonic 223 round I had picked up somewhere. It worked great for a neck shot inside 30 yards. Where I hunt axis there’s some nosie type people that are none the smarter if they aren’t hearing a rifle being fired off. I’m castOmg 223 in a lee 55 grain mold and have been loading them with unique. Powder being hard to come by, I was wondering what people were using for 223 subs. I was thinking maybe 3 or 4 grains of unique to start with and work up or down depending on results. Am I thinking right on this?

[Larry Gibson]

I prefer to use Bullseye for such loads and many times sub sonic loads with Unique do not generate enough psi efficiently. If you must use the Unique I suggest you start at 5 gr Unique and work down in .3 gr increments until sub sonic which ill be around 1050 to 1100 fps. Keep a stout cleaning rod hand in case some bullets don't exit the barrel. If you can get some Bullseye then I suggest 2.0, 2.2 or 2.4 gr under that Lee bullet. How much to be just sub sonic depends on the primer used and the barrel length.

[WebMonkey]

hodgdon lists a titegroup loading on their website data.

good luck

[flyingmonkey35]

I have had very good luck with that tight group / trail boss and cbi powder.

Alll shot out if a remington bolt action ,223

Lee 55 grn powder coated

With 3-8 grains of powder. Depending on use.

I also use a small pistol primer as the pressures are not high enough to blow put the primer.

I just live in a state where we can only deer hunt once a year.



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Lloyd Smale]

I prefer to use Bullseye for such loads and many times sub sonic loads with Unique do not generate enough psi efficiently. If you must use the Unique I suggest you start at 5 gr Unique and work down in .3 gr increments until sub sonic which ill be around 1050 to 1100 fps. Keep a stout cleaning rod hand in case some bullets don't exit the barrel. If you can get some Bullseye then I suggest 2.0, 2.2 or 2.4 gr under that Lee bullet. How much to be just sub sonic depends on the primer used and the barrel length.

yup me too. Ive shot blackouts in my ruger american with 3 grains of bullseye and the rcbs 130 gas check spitzer pc coated. With a can it sounds like a pellet rifle. Pretty darned accurate to boot.

[GregLaROCHE]

When I was experimenting with.30 cal. subsonic, I found that the smallest amount of the fastest burning powder worked best.

[762 shooter]

I walked into the 223 subsonic rabbit hole.

I realized that a 22lr works better.

That and $4.95 will get you a double cam fru fru extra latte coffee.

762

[Hills of texas]

This is all good info. Keep it coming. I’m searching out different powders but they are hard to find so I’m stuck with what I have on hand.

[dverna]

Given the desire to hunt silently at close range, why not get a crossbow? A subsonic 55 gr bullet is not a good choice IMO.

A wounded deer dying on the property of your nosey neighbors will not be well received.

BTW, almost everyone else here is very nice...me...not so much. You said "I shot an axis deer with a subsonic 223 round I had picked up somewhere." Think about that statement for a minute.....I am left with the impression you had one round, have no idea how it was loaded or who loaded it. Was it loaded with a cast bullet or something like the the Hornady SX? You decided to kill a deer with the one round you had. Took a neck shot without knowing POI. If you had wounded the deer, with only one sub-sonic round, what was your plan?

[Hills of texas]

Given the desire to hunt silently at close range, why not get a crossbow? A subsonic 55 gr bullet is not a good choice IMO.

A wounded deer dying on the property of your nosey neighbors will not be well received.

BTW, almost everyone else here is very nice...me...not so much. You said "I shot an axis deer with a subsonic 223 round I had picked up somewhere." Think about that statement for a minute.....I am left with the impression you had one round, have no idea how it was loaded or who loaded it. Was it loaded with a cast bullet or something like the the Hornady SX? You decided to kill a deer with the one round you had. Took a neck shot without knowing POI. If you had wounded the deer, with only one sub-sonic round, what was your plan?

I had started with several that were given to me. Sighted in on paper at 25. Jacketed hollow point. Went with three in the gun. Only have a couple left. It actually worked really well with a through and through to the neck. You should give people a little more credit before you make too many assumptions. I’m new to casting, not shooting and or hunting.

[osteodoc08]

Now that we’ve cleared that up, let’s stay on topic.

You will be best served with fast pistol powders. Larry has suggested some very good ones. Other sources include trailboss, tight group and clays. Data is free off the hodgdon website

[quilbilly]

As always, I agree with Larry. I have also had good results with the old style Lee boolit and Bullseye. It just always makes me nervous using such a tiny amount of powder in a bottleneck case because it is soooo easy to make a mistake. I once deliberately put a triple charge in a 223 case and looked into it with a flashlight just to see what it looked like compared to a "regular" 2 gr load and I could barely tell the difference. One of these days I may try a very light Red Dot load since it is a much fluffier powder and easier to see.

[dverna]

Since I am the only one who seems bothered. Last post on this thread.

Hunting deer with a subsonic 55 gr bullet is unethical. Using a decent load is more important than keeping the noise down for neighbors. It is very unlikely neighbors would be bothered by, or report gunshots during deer season anyway.

There is no good reason to harvest deer with a 1000 fps 55 gr bullet. We should be discouraging such endeavors, not condoning them or providing assistance. Maybe I am jaded as I have poachers in my area and this is the kind of crap they do with .22's.

[jjamna]

Did some research on this bout a week ago. Came up with trail Boss 4 to 5 grains will get you around 1000 to 1100 fps. FPS is published data, I did not chrony them. 4.0 Blue dot 1187 fps.
Loaded both. Sounded about like an un-suppressed 22lr pistol. Will not cycle an AR. Boolit was Lee Bater sized to 224. Did not check for accuracy yet. Waiting for warmer weather to cast some without wrinkles. Why do I want it? In case I can't get 22 lr (it has happened )I can load these for small fury critters.

[Hills of texas]

Did some research on this bout a week ago. Came up with trail Boss 4 to 5 grains will get you around 1000 to 1100 fps. FPS is published data, I did not chrony them. 4.0 Blue dot 1187 fps.
Loaded both. Sounded about like an un-suppressed 22lr pistol. Will not cycle an AR. Boolit was Lee Bater sized to 224. Did not check for accuracy yet. Waiting for warmer weather to cast some without wrinkles. Why do I want it? In case I can't get 22 lr (it has happened )I can load these for small fury critters.

Post up your results when you test them please. We have lots of varmits and exotics around the house. I like being able to use my 223 at the house without the loud report. I do shoot 22 lr regularly but I like the heavier bullet.

[Hills of texas]

Since I am the only one who seems bothered. Last post on this thread.

Hunting deer with a subsonic 55 gr bullet is unethical. Using a decent load is more important than keeping the noise down for neighbors. It is very unlikely neighbors would be bothered by, or report gunshots during deer season anyway.

There is no good reason to harvest deer with a 1000 fps 55 gr bullet. We should be discouraging such endeavors, not condoning them or providing assistance. Maybe I am jaded as I have poachers in my area and this is the kind of crap they do with .22's.

Here where I live we can shoot exotics year round. 22 lr or 50 BMG. Doesn’t matter. Being able to use my 223 setup with a smaller load works great for what I’m doing. If you ever get down this way I’ll let you come out and see for yourself if you like.

[Drm50]

Well we have dip sticks that need a 338mg or a 45/70 to kill a deer. In opposing corner we have dip sticks who want to use 22s. It would make a lot better sense to use a practical rifle for the game. I have seen enough dead deer laying in woods that died after a bad hit from a practical cartridge to say a low velocity 22 bullet isn’t a practical deer load. Under ideal conditions you can kill a deer with a 22short or a CB cap. That doesn’t mean they are a good choice for deer. Many states outlawed 22 cal rifles for big game, for that reason. I’ve killed many a steer & hog with a 22lr but I didn’t make a game out of it. I’m sure on other posts right now on CB, someone is obsessing over a 300 gr 45 boolit wondering if it will take down a deer. Noise? One shot and nobody knows where it came from.

[Larry Gibson]

Here where I live we can shoot exotics year round. 22 lr or 50 BMG. Doesn’t matter. Being able to use my 223 setup with a smaller load works great for what I’m doing. If you ever get down this way I’ll let you come out and see for yourself if you like.

Having shot 3 deer in Texas I've no problem with what you're doing. Unfortunately, many equate "hunting" to their style and methods. When in Texas (West Kerr Ranch) I did not "hunt" deer as I knew it where I came from (Pacific NW). In Texas with stands and feeders (feeders illegal where I come from) you don't "hunt" deer, you shoot deer. That was fine by me as I was there for a "Texas deer hunt" not a Pacific NW deer hunt. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.....or don't go to Rome.......

I've no doubt the sub sonic cast load will do as you want it to do under the conditions you describe.....go for it.

My suppressed Contender 223 from which I shoot the 225415 sub sonic.

279060

[jjamna]

Post up your results when you test them please. We have lots of varmits and exotics around the house. I like being able to use my 223 at the house without the loud report. I do shoot 22 lr regularly but I like the heavier bullet.

Like I said before, they sound about like a 22 lr. It will be a while before I do- Like summer time. I will try to remember to let you know. You may be better off to try them yourself. The Lee bater mold is 55 grain by the way.

[Lloyd Smale]

Since I am the only one who seems bothered. Last post on this thread.

Hunting deer with a subsonic 55 gr bullet is unethical. Using a decent load is more important than keeping the noise down for neighbors. It is very unlikely neighbors would be bothered by, or report gunshots during deer season anyway.

There is no good reason to harvest deer with a 1000 fps 55 gr bullet. We should be discouraging such endeavors, not condoning them or providing assistance. Maybe I am jaded as I have poachers in my area and this is the kind of crap they do with .22's.

totaly agree. Im not even a fan of full power 556 for deer hunting. To me its more of a stunt then anything. People do it just to prove they can and dont much care if a deer suffers. If you want to kill deer with an AR get a 300 bo or some other more suited round. What you can get away with isnt the same as what is right and id bet if your here you have a gun more suited for deer. Id bet not a single guy here can say his only centerfire rifle is a 223. Now im guilty and a hypocrite because id did kill two does one year with a 60 grain partition in one of my ar's and it killed them but do it enough times and its going to bite you. You WILL eventually wound one or not recover one that you couldnt find. What i seen to find with the fans of 22 cal deer hunting is those people tend to forget or keep quiet about those failures or blame something else for them. I kill ALOT of deer every year. More then some shoot in there lifetime. I take it very seriously and use the right tool for the job that puts them down without suffering. Yup a 223 will kill a deer. Obviously because its killed 100s of thousands of men that weight more then a deer. That said i dont know of one person that kills alot of deer that claims its an ideal round to do it. Or even a good one. The military uses them because there light, dont kick and they can carry more ammo. NOT because there better then a 308 or 06 at killing.

[JoeJames]

I walked into the 223 subsonic rabbit hole.

I realized that a 22lr works better.

That and $4.95 will get you a double cam fru fru extra latte coffee.

762Yup, some do not figure that one out.

[Hills of texas]

totaly agree. Im not even a fan of full power 556 for deer hunting. To me its more of a stunt then anything. People do it just to prove they can and dont much care if a deer suffers. If you want to kill deer with an AR get a 300 bo or some other more suited round. What you can get away with isnt the same as what is right and id bet if your here you have a gun more suited for deer. Id bet not a single guy here can say his only centerfire rifle is a 223. Now im guilty and a hypocrite because id did kill two does one year with a 60 grain partition in one of my ar's and it killed them but do it enough times and its going to bite you. You WILL eventually wound one or not recover one that you couldnt find. What i seen to find with the fans of 22 cal deer hunting is those people tend to forget or keep quiet about those failures or blame something else for them. I kill ALOT of deer every year. More then some shoot in there lifetime. I take it very seriously and use the right tool for the job that puts them down without suffering. Yup a 223 will kill a deer. Obviously because its killed 100s of thousands of men that weight more then a deer. That said i dont know of one person that kills alot of deer that claims its an ideal round to do it. Or even a good one. The military uses them because there light, dont kick and they can carry more ammo. NOT because there better then a 308 or 06 at killing.

I guess this is a regional idea about having to have a big gun to kill deer. Where I’m at we literally have state issued tags that allow us to kill anywhere from tens to hundreds of deer off each of ranch. We use 223 and head/neck shoot everything. Works great for culling and there is no meat damage. Anyways, I didn’t start this post to stir the ethics pot. Down here, a 223 is perfectly accepted for shooting deer. Where you are at, maybe not. To each their own.

[Hills of texas]

Having shot 3 deer in Texas I've no problem with what you're doing. Unfortunately, many equate "hunting" to their style and methods. When in Texas (West Kerr Ranch) I did not "hunt" deer as I knew it where I came from (Pacific NW). In Texas with stands and feeders (feeders illegal where I come from) you don't "hunt" deer, you shoot deer. That was fine by me as I was there for a "Texas deer hunt" not a Pacific NW deer hunt. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.....or don't go to Rome.......

I've no doubt the sub sonic cast load will do as you want it to do under the conditions you describe.....go for it.

My suppressed Contender 223 from which I shoot the 225415 sub sonic.

279060

Kerrville is right down the road from me. That’s a great place to go hunting. I like the rifle in the pic too!

[Markopolo]

i am a red dot fan for 223... but like most said, fast powder works!!!

[reddog81]

223 might be an acceptable cartridge but you're basically shooting .22 LRs. Big difference. Why don't you just use a .22 LR? Oh yeah because it's illegal....

[KenH]

Why are you using a 55 grain for subsonic loads? Why not the heavier cast bullets designed for subsonic loads in the .223/5.56? Seems like they're in the 90 to 100 grain range? Those are used in the suppressed subsonic rounds to provide sufficient pressure to operate the semi-auto function of the AR based rifle.

[Hills of texas]

223 might be an acceptable cartridge but you're basically shooting .22 LRs. Big difference. Why don't you just use a .22 LR? Oh yeah because it's illegal....

Not illegal at all. You can kill exotics with a sling shot if you want to give it a go. If don’t wish to comment on the topic of subsonic loads, please move along. If you want to suggest that something is illegal, at least be familiar with the state game laws that you are commenting on.

[Hills of texas]

Why are you using a 55 grain for subsonic loads? Why not the heavier cast bullets designed for subsonic loads in the .223/5.56? Seems like they're in the 90 to 100 grain range? Those are used in the suppressed subsonic rounds to provide sufficient pressure to operate the semi-auto function of the AR based rifle.

My rifle doesn’t shoot the heavier bullets very well. It’s a bolt gun so I don’t worry about cycling the action an an auto. A heavier bullet would be great otherwise.

[Doughty]

"I guess this is a regional idea about having to have a big gun to kill deer. Where I’m at we literally have state issued tags that allow us to kill anywhere from tens to hundreds of deer off each of ranch. We use 223 and head/neck shoot everything. Works great for culling and there is no meat damage. Anyways, I didn’t start this post to stir the ethics pot. Down here, a 223 is perfectly accepted for shooting deer. Where you are at, maybe not. To each their own."

This^^^^^^^

[BJK]

Sorry, no 55gr loads. They didn't interest me. Note that all charges are weighed. And all bullets were jacketed.

When I was playing with subsonic .223 I realized that the only way to get more energy on the target was to use a heavier bullet. This is my load data from back then. It works in my 1:7 twist AR, I have no idea if it'll work in yours or even be safe in yours. Penetration is some kind of fantastic. Out to 75 yds the load is a tackdriver, then it starts to destabilize.

Sub-Sonic - accurate to 75 yds. only

Bullet: Sierra 80 gr HPBT (loaded frontwards)
(Alternate: Hornady 75 HPBT works also and can be loaded to fit a magazine)
Brass: US military
Primer: CCI 450 Magnum
Powder: 4.4 gr Green Dot
Case length: 1.750
2.430 LOA - Single loading only - Won’t fit in magazine
HEAVY crimp - Lee crimp die

Than I decided to work up a silent load for a 16" Contender. I also bought a few k of 33 gr jacketed and tipped seconds and decided use them. Basically it's a silent .22 that won't gunk up the can since the can is sealed. It works great for killing vermin absolutely silently. Used with NV they can't even tell where the shot is coming from. This load data was worked up in my barrel and obviously I don't know how it will work in yours. Yes, you start high and work down unless you like lodged bullets in your barrel. You really need a 'chrono' to work with subsonic loads.

Bullet: 33 Gr V-Max (.22 Mag surplus and blems)
Green Dot Powder
CCI 450 small rifle magnum primer
2.110 COAL
Moderate Lee Factory Crimp (try crimping with the seating die)

3.4 gr 1428 fps

3.2 gr 1415 fps

3.0 gr 1169 fps

2.5 gr 1169 fps

2.0 gr 1013 fps

FWIW, these same bullets can be driven to almost 4000fps using fast powder. I wish I had a better memory of doing that, but I had no use for them and it was just to see what the bullet would take. They'd probably blow up on the surface of the target. Might be OK for ground squirrels if the closest ones weren't thousands of miles away. Inexpensive .17 except in a .22 bore?

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess this is a regional idea about having to have a big gun to kill deer. Where I’m at we literally have state issued tags that allow us to kill anywhere from tens to hundreds of deer off each of ranch. We use 223 and head/neck shoot everything. Works great for culling and there is no meat damage. Anyways, I didn’t start this post to stir the ethics pot. Down here, a 223 is perfectly accepted for shooting deer. Where you are at, maybe not. To each their own.

thats how i kill most of my deer. Crop damage shooting on a farm and we kill up to a 100 deer a year. Went through that head shooting thing seen some deer really messed up run off. Did the neck thing. Lots of places in a neck that dont drop a deer. Found the best way is whats worked for man for centurys. Shoot them behind the shoulder with a amply powerful rifle. If your shoot 100s of deer why even worry about loosing a bit of rib meat or an occasional front shoulder. Shoot 100s of deer and your eventually going to pull a shot. Nobodys perfect and if your shooting behind the shoulder theres MUCH more room to error and still make a clean kill. Make an error in a head shot and youve blown a jaw off. Dont get me wrong. Ive taken head shots and neck shots and still occasionaly do but im talking deer a 100 yards or less away. Im sure not risking a 300 yard shot shooting at the head of a deer. We get deer all the time in high oats that all you can see is necks and heads out 300 yards in a field. Sorry but i just watch them and look for a good behind the should shot. Bottom line is just what i said before. If your shooting a 223 or even a 22250 and are shooting a 100 deer a year and ARE HONSEST youve lost deer and deer have run off with terrible wounds and pain to die slowly. THing is when someone shoots that many deer they tend to forget those shots. We even had one guy hunting on the farm that we found out was shooting deer and if a deer ran out of the field at the shot he didnt even go and look for it. He was also taking the fawns he shot by accident and dragging them to the edge of the field and leaving them because it was to much work for the meat he got. He didnt last long.

My partener and i kill ALOT of deer. We take pride in the fact we do it right. We take only good shots and use enough gun. Our number one priority is clean kills. Meat comes second. If your priortys arent the same then stay away from where we do it. I have to ask one last question. WHY?? Why not shoot them in the head or neck with an 06. At least that way when you have a deer out at 300 yards you have an adequate gun. Ive heard the 22s are popular in texas. Blows my mind because the texans ive known are braggers that would claim there better hunters because they use a pop gun. there not prisses that cant shoot anything bigger then a 223! I just dont see one thing the 223 does better or even a single legit point to justify it. My guess is the majority of those doing it are the young wet behind the ears type that comes on a internet forum to brag. Same ones that blaze away with 6.5 creedmores at deer 800 yards away. My dad told me when i started hunting to shoot thinking that any deer i wound and suffers will be waiting for me at the gates of heaven to stomp me into the ground. that i needed to respect the fact i was taking a life and it was my obligation to do it so the animal didnt suffer needlessly. Heck the first 6 deer i killed i did it with a little m1 carbine but not one of those deer was shot past 50 yards. Like you said to each his own. Say what you want but EVERYONE knows a 223 isnt a deer rifle. You could proabably kill a deer with a sling shot if all the stars aligned but that doesnt make it right. Now ill bow out of this one now. I dont need to say more. FACT is on my side. Ive killed over 500 deer in my life and know what works and what doesnt. How many did you kill to get your opinion?

[JoeJames]

"Say what you want but EVERYONE knows a 223 isnt a deer rifle. " I agree; of course an awful lot of deer have been killed, eventually, with a 40-50 grain 22LR, and with a subsonic 223 round that is essentially what you are using. Even with a full load it is still a little bitty boolit.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup joe. Ive killed and seen them killed with 22lrs 22mags 22 hornets and 223s. Doesnt make them proper tools. About like hammering in a nail with a rock. Sure you can do it in a pinch but what sense does it make when theres a hammer in the tool box. Add to that hammering a nail doesnt involve taking the life of something that can suffer.

[Hills of texas]

Saying everyone from Texas is a braggart, would be like saying everyone from Michigan is a self righteous air bag. It’s just not so. I’m guessing you already know that though because you appear to know just about everything. My topic was on subsonic load data. Several have managed to stay on topic and contribute, you have not. Everyone is welcome to their opinions on matters but if it doesn’t contribute to the topic, it really doesn’t belong in the thread. You might consider starting a caliber specific deer hunting thread. Then you could expand on you vast knowledge of deer hunting.

[Larry Gibson]

Hills of texas

Carry on with your plan, many of us are interested in what the results will be. So please post your results/experiences.....the successes and failure/problems if any. Some of us are interested in terminal effectiveness results as we also shoot subsonic cast bullet in the 223 and other cartridges [I shoot some subsonic jacketed also].

Ignore the ones who neither understand the legality of shooting exotics in Texas nor the hunting/shooting conditions there.

[Hills of texas]

Hills of texas

Carry on with your plan, many of us are interested in what the results will be. So please post your results/experiences.....the successes and failure/problems if any. Some of us are interested in terminal effectiveness results as we also shoot subsonic cast bullet in the 223 and other cartridges [I shoot some subsonic jacketed also].

Ignore the ones who neither understand the legality of shooting exotics in Texas nor the hunting/shooting conditions there.

Will do. Hunting in the Texas hill country is completely different than hunting anywhere else. We have an extremely high number of native and exotic game. Above carrying capacity in many areas that leads to small bodied deer. We aren’t shooting too many 200 lbs plus whitetail. Most wont break 140. We hunt exotics and hogs at night with lights and or night vision too. If someone doesn’t agree with how things are down here that’s fine, but don’t harp on it. I’m interested in other caliber subs too. Right now though, I’m wanting to work with the 223. I will post up my results once I settle on a few loads to try.

[Lloyd Smale]

Saying everyone from Texas is a braggart, would be like saying everyone from Michigan is a self righteous air bag. It’s just not so. I’m guessing you already know that though because you appear to know just about everything. My topic was on subsonic load data. Several have managed to stay on topic and contribute, you have not. Everyone is welcome to their opinions on matters but if it doesn’t contribute to the topic, it really doesn’t belong in the thread. You might consider starting a caliber specific deer hunting thread. Then you could expand on you vast knowledge of deer hunting.

read the post. Its pretty obvious what i meant to say is there ARENT braggers. What belongs in this thread isnt up to you. As long as rules arent broke i can post my opinion. If that bothers you then so be it. Also just so you know. Deer up here arent routinely 200lbs either. Matter of fact they rarely go over a 150. Most of the deer we shoot doing crop damage shooting are closer to a 100lbs. What i do know isnt math or come from a ballistics lab. Its WHAT kills deer. I got that knowledge not from daddy, not from guns and ammo and not from here. I got it from killing deer. LOTS OF DEER. An animal like any animal (yup even problem pigs) that i dont want running off suffering. If that doesnt bother you then you shouldnt be shooting them with a 458 mag. Maybe take up golf. Where does your opinion come from. As to Texas i served with some FINE people in the service that were from that state. Some great guys that were as patriotic as I am. Matter of fact i spent 4 months in the hospital with one of them.

[Duckiller]

What Lloyd is not telling you is that there are people in Michigan that shoot deer with 5 cell flash lights and a 22lr. They shoot at night. They are NOT respected members of polite society. Back to sonic. I have a box of subsonic 22lr. 40 gr made in Germany. While subsonic .223 is interesting I do not believe that my 223 AR, my 22/250 or any of my 22lr rifles are suitable deer rifles. Use what ever you want but know that most hunters in other states will not approve of your choice of firearms.

[BJK]

Hills of texas, Yes, you can kill vermin deer with a .22. I've done it with a .22LR which is basically what you'll be using. But there are some prerequisites to it, as you know and mentioned. You must be able to place the shot precisely and be close enough to do that. I'd need to check my state regulations again, but I think we can use a .22 magnum or larger (Maine). I looked it up since the law may have changed.

"Cartridges:
• Firearms with .17 or .22 caliber rimfire
cartridges may not be used for deer,
moose, or bear hunting, except that .22
magnum can be used for deer hunting."


Hunters from other states know what they encounter and know their abilities in their deer hunting AO and the laws of their state and project that onto you. I think that's why you're getting the flak. They can't envision a place so overrun with deer that they destroy habitat for themselves and other animals and die of starvation. It's not generally done up here but there are islands that are so overrun with deer that the state hires pro hunters to kill them, while the residents who created the situation are blissfully asleep. It's accomplished with the use of suppressors, NV, and night hunting. In Maine that's not considered sporting, and must be done under a special permit but like your situation it's just about lowering the population and it's not about sport hunting. Heck, it's not hunting at all, just shooting, but it must be done. Those culls don't use .22s due to the ranges involved but I have no doubt that if the shots were close enough they'd use .22s to make sure the island residents stay in dream land.

Are you wrong? No I don't think so. Is the person who uses a .30-06 or a .375 wrong for using too much gun? No. Dead is dead and one must know the circumstances and ones abilities. Every state is different and I don't think many folks can make the mental switch from sport hunting to just lowering the population of animals that have bred so much that they're now considered a nuisance. You need quiet to kill as many as possible before they spook and that precludes the use of a .30-06. Good luck with your deer eradication efforts.

Just a question, what do you do with the meat? Sorry if that's already been asked.

Up here (that would be north) fresh road kill is generally donated to soup kitchens and such. I have no idea what the island cull deer are used for. But I called DIF&W to find out. I'm waiting for their return call. OK I waited long enough so I called the main office and got hold of a flak who essentially dismissed me. She stated, "It was probably donated to a food bank." . Heck I could have made that guess too, but I wanted something more definitive. She directed me to the Maine state archives which were of no help but at least she got rid of me from her phone.

[BJK]

Duplicate post.

[Hills of texas]

Road kill is left in the bar ditch. Illegal to take possession of it. Meat from culling is processed and donated to food banks. I own and operate a large taxidermy and wild game processing business, so I can certain it gets where it needs to go. I think there’s a big disconnect between what happens down here and what takes place up there. The last few months we run at 1500 deer through our facilities, so I get to see results from all kinds of calibers. Probably a quarter of them were 223 and they were just as dead as the deer shot with 300win mag. To each their own.

[Dimner]

Road kill is left in the bar ditch. Illegal to take possession of it. Meat from culling is processed and donated to food banks. I own and operate a large taxidermy and wild game processing business, so I can certain it gets where it needs to go. I think there’s a big disconnect between what happens down here and what takes place up there. The last few months we run at 1500 deer through our facilities, so I get to see results from all kinds of calibers. Probably a quarter of them were 223 and they were just as dead as the deer shot with 300win mag. To each their own.

You see zero percent of deer wounded by 22cal and not found

[Dimner]

On the topic of deer calibers... I have a strong feeling that us up here in michigan do not see deer as a pest or something to cull. When we hunt we hunt for 100% success as some of us only get 1 or 2 tags a year. So of course we are not going to waste those attempts on an underperforming caliber. Also keep in mind that a majority of Michigan's hunters (when on private land) are hunting on 20 acres or less. So we tend to like that deer to drop very close to where it was shot.

However, for culling do what makes you happy and fits the requirements of the job you have to do.

[BJK]

[smilie=l:

Fresh road kill only Hills. Typically the car that hit the deer is there when the game warden shows up and the deer is offered to the person with the damaged car. Lots of times it's accepted but if not it goes to a food pantry. But moose, for those a local sportmans club is called to come dress it out and that all goes to a food pantry, soup kitchen something like that. With any luck the owner of the car lived through it. Typically they come right over the hood and through the windshield. A moose collision can be a very ugly scene and you can't see the moose until you're right on top of it. Many times the moose just shakes it off and trots away.

Then there's this. Yes the Road Kill Restaurant exists. https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=19940116&slug=1889902

[Hills of texas]

I bet a moose would be about like hitting a horse. When we was a police officer, I had worked a vehicle vs horse one time. It wasn’t good for horse or driver.

[gbrown]

Hmm. 243 have been used extensively in TX for our Whitetail. .243 minus .224. 0.019. I've seen Whitetail down here torn up by. 224. Just saying. My 2 oldest grandsons took their first Whitetail with a Contender .223, one at 125 yards, one at 30 yard. 1st ran 50 yards, 2nd made it 10 yards. It'll do the job down here.

[gbrown]

BTW, livestock on the roadway suck. Big hog or cow are a big STOP! Horse, probably also a Moose, you looking at an animal in the windshield. Horses and Moose have higher center of gravity. We lost a night supervisor to a couple of horses one night when I was assigned to night patrol, years ago.

[Lloyd Smale]

On the topic of deer calibers... I have a strong feeling that us up here in michigan do not see deer as a pest or something to cull. When we hunt we hunt for 100% success as some of us only get 1 or 2 tags a year. So of course we are not going to waste those attempts on an underperforming caliber. Also keep in mind that a majority of Michigan's hunters (when on private land) are hunting on 20 acres or less. So we tend to like that deer to drop very close to where it was shot.

However, for culling do what makes you happy and fits the requirements of the job you have to do.

I live up here and do do culling. Still have the same respect for those deer as i do a 10 pointer. My first goal is to put them down fast and cleanly and with as little pain as possible. Just dont see the mentality in trying to get away with the smallest possible gun. I guess it makes some feel manly. Probably not one single guy on here that is on the side of 22s for deer that doesnt have a proper gun. Kind of like going to build a home with a tiny ball peen hammer and a hacksaw. Sure doesnt prove your a better carpenter. In fact just the opposite.

[Lloyd Smale]

Road kill is left in the bar ditch. Illegal to take possession of it. Meat from culling is processed and donated to food banks. I own and operate a large taxidermy and wild game processing business, so I can certain it gets where it needs to go. I think there’s a big disconnect between what happens down here and what takes place up there. The last few months we run at 1500 deer through our facilities, so I get to see results from all kinds of calibers. Probably a quarter of them were 223 and they were just as dead as the deer shot with 300win mag. To each their own.

so you ask every man dropping off a deer what they shot it with and keep count and inspect wound channels and keep notes?????????

[Land Owner]

The friction here is "political correctness" (not alerting the nosey neighbors) and in a sporting way, through the consciously intended use of a small caliber, sub-sonic (by request), bullet that many States, Wildlife Officials, and Sportsmen (myself included), deem inadequate and unacceptable.

Political correctness - "legality" aside, if there is no other restrictive requirement (i.e. land owner not wanting to hear the neighbor's whining or meeting the sheriff at O'dark-30 to explain), tell the neighbor to "Go **** up a rope!"

Shooting deer (a regulated resource) with an "ethically vilified" sub-standard caliber at "observable by eye" velocity - can you do it? Sure...all the time and on purpose (because it is "legal")? That practice flies in the face of ethics, give rise to the epitaph "Slob Hunter", gives us all a black eye, and gets Sportsmen all bowed up...worse than the whiney neighbor.

These sentiments are paraphrased from another thread on Castboolits:
...close enough does not win these contests. When taking the life of another creature...out of respect.

So if my response to the neighbor is your response to criticism, then OWN the epitaph.

[BJK]

Hills, yes, moose are very high CG animals. Their very long legs are there to allow them to move in deep snow. They can have trouble moving but the snow must be very deep and if it's a cow with calf the cow will stick with the calf with shorter legs. One year I had a cow and calf yarded up on my land. I almost went out to drop a few hemlock for them but didn't want to spook them and drive them into the deep snow. That year the snow was up to my chest deep. Those long legs also mean that their dark bodies are out of the beam of headlights that are properly aimed down so as not to blind on coming drivers. All that can be seen are sticklike lighter colored legs. If something strange is seen in the road ahead it's best to slow down. The first time those legs are seen you won't know what it is until you get close and can see the body silhouetted against the headlights beyond the moose. Closer and the lights are bright enough to maybe see the body. It's a massive animal.

There's a huge difference between aiming at one tiny spot on the animal and knowing, not thinking it can be done, which takes skill, and aiming at the entire animal in the hope that massive trauma will do the job. They are entirely different ways of killing deer. Yes, most times I use enough ft/lbs for the massive trauma to do the job. A whitetail exploding up out of it's bed at 15 yards is NOT a well placed shot that's required for precise placement.

I'll go out on a limb and say that in Texas this deer culling is also done at night with lights or NV. Maybe suppressors are also used. Perfectly legal for removing excess deer I'd wager. Notice that I didn't write "sport hunting". Hills, am I even close? Some places allow deer to be sport hunted with dogs, Maine doesn't but just because we don't doesn't mean it's wrong, just wrong in Maine. It means that there are different ways to hunt. Same goes for driving, not in Maine but OK elsewhere, it's not wrong, just different. And I won't beat others into submission to attempt to get others to see that "their ways are just scum and mine is so much better, so you better come over to my way of thinking.".

Different ways to hunt, different requirements, different circumstances, different strokes for different folks. Glad to see freedom and understanding is alive and well here (it is among some and not so much in others). Sheesh, if we can't understand basics like I just wrote what hope do we have against the gun banners? Get over yourselves and gain some understanding.

[perotter]

.....

Different ways to hunt, different requirements, different circumstances, different strokes for different folks. Glad to see freedom and understanding is alive and well here (it is among some and not so much in others). Sheesh, if we can't understand basics like I just wrote what hope do we have against the gun banners? Get over yourselves and gain some understanding.

Yup. But I hold little hope for that to happen. Seems there is not shortage of love for or comfort with the "Little Boxes" mindset.

Comes a point where an idea has to be given a real world test.

[brewer12345]

I am starting the process of fooling with subsonic 350 legend, another AR caliber. If I am successful, I will probably go through the hassle of getting a suppressor for my bolt gun. Even with a 180 or 200 grain bullet, subsonic means you don't have a whole lot of energy to work with. My use for such a thing is critters a whole lot smaller than deer, but I have killed multiple deer with black powder rifles where the energy numbers are not all that impressive. I get away with it because a 54 round ball makes a big hole. With something as dinky as a 223, your shots have to be precise and you have little margin for error. I am interested in the results of testing, but I do wonder: why not pick something bigger?

[Lloyd Smale]

The friction here is "political correctness" (not alerting the nosey neighbors) and in a sporting way, through the consciously intended use of a small caliber, sub-sonic (by request), bullet that many States, Wildlife Officials, and Sportsmen (myself included), deem inadequate and unacceptable.

Political correctness - "legality" aside, if there is no other restrictive requirement (i.e. land owner not wanting to hear the neighbor's whining or meeting the sheriff at O'dark-30 to explain), tell the neighbor to "Go **** up a rope!"

Shooting deer (a regulated resource) with an "ethically vilified" sub-standard caliber at "observable by eye" velocity - can you do it? Sure...all the time and on purpose (because it is "legal")? That practice flies in the face of ethics, give rise to the epitaph "Slob Hunter", gives us all a black eye, and gets Sportsmen all bowed up...worse than the whiney neighbor.

These sentiments are paraphrased from another thread on Castboolits:

So if my response to the neighbor is your response to criticism, then OWN the epitaph.

well said