What's with the trend towards super hard cast lead alloy low pressure handgun bullets

[Soundguy]

Been looking around a few sites I'm a member of.. Many of them are reloader oriented.

I keep seeing people getting uber hard handgun bullets..like 22 bhn for low pressure stop..like 9mm and 38spl 44 sol and 45 colt..etc.

What the heck.. I must be doing something wrong cuz I shoot most handgun around 10bhn. If it's a magnum load maybe gas checked and 12 if lots of fps..but that's imho.. That's almost too hard.

I'm not even doing 30 cal rifle at 22 bin. Just 16-18 and gas checked. Same with 35 cal.

Have I been doing it wrong all this time? I shoot into sand and water and recover projectiles. Always 100% weight retention and mushroomed. Like a dime. Accuracy is superior to commercial jwords and no lead fouling. Hammer smash tests always yields a nice deforming non fracturing bullet.

What am I missing?

[44MAG#1]

Really you are not doing anything wrong. You do things your way and someone else does it their way. Each has their own way. If it works for the individual that is all that matters. All kinds of shooters. Some with thousands of dollars worth og equipment to bare minimum equipment and the in-between people. People with college degrees to people like me that barely made out of high school.
Differences are what makes it interesting.
If it WORKS for YOU then that is all that matters.
Do your thing and be happy.



Been looking around a few sites I'm a member of.. Many of them are reloader oriented.

I keep seeing people getting uber hard handgun bullets..like 22 bhn for low pressure stop..like 9mm and 38spl 44 sol and 45 colt..etc.

What the heck.. I must be doing something wrong cuz I shoot most handgun around 10bhn. If it's a magnum load maybe gas checked and 12 if lots of fps..but that's imho.. That's almost too hard.

I'm not even doing 30 cal rifle at 22 bin. Just 16-18 and gas checked. Same with 35 cal.

Have I been doing it wrong all this time? I shoot into sand and water and recover projectiles. Always 100% weight retention and mushroomed. Like a dime. Accuracy is superior to commercial jwords and no lead fouling. Hammer smash tests always yields a nice deforming non fracturing bullet.

What am I missing?

[rancher1913]

the commercial casters use a hard lead to enable them to ship their product with little distortion, is this what your talking about. most on here that cast their own use as soft as they can get away with for cost savings.

[Sam Sackett]

I agree with you. I shoot soft lead. The hardest I shoot is clip on wheel weights and that's for hot 357's. Soft lead casts well for me and seems to obituaries well enough to seal the bores. I have no trouble with leading.

I've heard more folks complaining about purchased bullets being too hard and the lube they use is too hard also. Manufacturers like it that way because there's less damage in shipping.

Maybe it's a new fad??

Sam Sackett

[Hickok]

I have gone to 50/50 clip-on ww and pure lead plus some tin, and Powder-coat for all my shooting from handguns to rifles. I don't go over 2100 fps in rifles (gas-checked), and run from 900 to 1300 fps in various handgun cartridges.

No need for hard cast in my practice shooting or hunting loads.

[Soundguy]

That must be it hard lead and lube for shipping.

10 works fantastic for most handgun for me. Many times I'm shooting straight range scrap.

[GhostHawk]

There are those who think if there is a problem, that they have to go harder.

And then there are those who think if there is a problem they need to go bigger.

I subscribe to the second school of thought myself.

[reloader28]

the commercial casters use a hard lead to enable them to ship their product with little distortion, is this what your talking about. most on here that cast their own use as soft as they can get away with for cost savings.

This is it. If you cast commercially, you have to have a hard bullet, hard lube to keep it safe in shipping. Unfortunately, you also need a 1-2thou smaller dia to fit all barrels, which usually dont work for most people.

We shoot 15-16BHN (air cooled clip on WW) from a pile of different rifles and handguns and it works great for us. If we need a special softer alloy for certain hunting or self defense loads, we make them softer but never have we needed harder.

It seems to me that with the huge influx of noobes we have (most noobe reloaders), they have gone back to the old thinking (without doing the research) that you have to have a hard bullet to make it work. Most of us know that is far from the truth.

[Rcmaveric]

Agree with the above. Hard bullets and lube is the trend for the commercial guys for shipping.

There is a few sites and articles I have read the recommended hard heat treated bullets for full throttle 357 Mag. But I do just fine with my normal alloy of 10BHN.

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[CoolHandMoss]

Harder boolits may be preferred for those burning faster powder in the smaller pistol loads. I've been resorting to titegroup more often lately to get more rounds per pound since it's so hard to find powder. Titegroup doesn't work so well with softer boolits.

[reddog81]

I think discussions like this show how versatile cast bullets are. One guy uses a 10 BHN bullet and gets good results, so he claims claims 10 BHN is the best. The next guy uses a 22 BHN bullet and gets good results and claims 22 BHN is the best. When in actually the BHN of the bullet is only one factor and is one of the less important factors unless pushing the limits.

[Soundguy]

Harder boolits may be preferred for those burning faster powder in the smaller pistol loads. I've been resorting to titegroup more often lately to get more rounds per pound since it's so hard to find powder. Titegroup doesn't work so well with softer boolits.

Titegroup is virtually all I load with for handgun and have had -0- issues. again.. I run around 10 bhn. On 357 full loads I do use gas checks and up it to about 12 bhn though.

[mdi]

I believe it's plain ignorance. Newer casters were often lead to believe that "Harder is Better" and wanted to purchase extra hard cast bullets. Of course the commercial casters wanted to make sales so they gave them what they wanted (most already used harder alloy for shipping survival anyway). Then the term "Hard Cast" began being used for any cast bullet (again, by newer casters) and now if a bullet is cast, regardless of the BHN, it is called Hard Cast and the trend has gone to "normal" bullets being 18-22 BHN. Here on Castboolits you can tell the newer cast bullet users as they all use the term Hard Cast...

Jes my thinking as for me, "Hard Cast" is anything above 12 BHN...

[Soundguy]

Agreed. Hard cast for me is rifle or super magnum loading.

[megasupermagnum]

I've tried everything from pure lead to heat treated COWW (BHN 25-30), and I have not found any issue with the very hard stuff. Even a low pressure loads, like my 45 ACP target loads going 700 fps, it doesn't matter if they are pure lead or super hard, it all works. There is certainly a minimum harness needed to maintain the integrity of the bullet for higher pressures, or they will deform and possibly foul the barrel, but it is far lower than most people would believe. 20:1 alloy should get you to at least 30,000 PSI with good accuracy in handguns. COWW gets most of what I need from handguns, although the very top end loads over 40,000 PSI it seems gas checks help.

For the most part I like bullets as soft as I can for hunting. One place you would want a super hard bullet would be any time you want amazing penetration. A water dropped COWW bullet runs around 25 BHN for me, yet is a very strong bullet. Linotype is maybe 22 BHN tops, and is brittle by comparison.

Rifles is a whole other ball game. When trying to push velocity, I always get better accuracy with a harder bullet. If you are ok with 2 MOA accuracy, then it doesn't really matter.

[waksupi]

Been looking around a few sites I'm a member of.. Many of them are reloader oriented.

I keep seeing people getting uber hard handgun bullets..like 22 bhn for low pressure stop..like 9mm and 38spl 44 sol and 45 colt..etc.

What the heck.. I must be doing something wrong cuz I shoot most handgun around 10bhn. If it's a magnum load maybe gas checked and 12 if lots of fps..but that's imho.. That's almost too hard.

I'm not even doing 30 cal rifle at 22 bin. Just 16-18 and gas checked. Same with 35 cal.

Have I been doing it wrong all this time? I shoot into sand and water and recover projectiles. Always 100% weight retention and mushroomed. Like a dime. Accuracy is superior to commercial jwords and no lead fouling. Hammer smash tests always yields a nice deforming non fracturing bullet.

What am I missing?

It's probably because they have never come to this board to learn what is proper to use.

[mdi]

it's probably because they have never come to this board to learn what is proper to use.

Amen!

[2005f22c]

It's probably because they have never come to this board to learn what is proper to use.

I started casting about 3 weeks ago, so I'm a complete noob. I've been casting 45 ACP round nose (Lyman 45 Caliber 225 Grain 452 diameter mold). I've tested my cast boolits with the Lee hardness tester and got 11.8 as the result. This should be good to go, however I've noticed that my boolits behave differently than the boolits I've bought from companies like Brazos Bullet Company. The boolits from Brazos don't dent when dropped onto a concrete floor from a height of about 3 feet. Also, the tips do not deform when run through a bullet feeder tube. My own cast boolits do dent when dropped on the floor, and the round nose tips also flatten out a small amount when I stack them and run them through a Lee bullet feeder tube for seating. This is the reason I want to make my own cast boolits harder, is this unnecessary?

[44MAG#1]

This is what I would like to know. If one is casting their own bullets and is getting good results with them doing what they are doing, does it matter if they are soft, medium soft, medium, medium hard, hard, or harder even more what difference does it make? If caster 1 has good luck with soft does that mean that caster 2 is wrong if he uses medium or if caster 2 uses medium and gets good results does that mean caster 1 is wrong for using soft and caster 3 is wrong if he uses hard alloy and gets good results? What about the casters that uses medium soft and medium hard? Where do they fall in all of this? Or is all this due to human nature that if someone isnt doing it my/your way then their way is wrong?
Could it be that human nature is heavily involved?

[Sam Sackett]

As long as what you are doing is working, you don't have to change a thing. One of the reasons I shoot soft bullets is that I can get soft lead pretty easily (and cheap) and COWW are hard to find. I don't want to buy harder lead for $2+ and shipping. Guess I'm cheep!

As long as the bullet fits the gun, you should be able to shoot without leading. The exception is when you get into higher pressures. Then you will need harder bullets or gas checks. For normal plinking, soft works. You would be surprised to find out how little a few dings matter with a pistol bullet at shorter ranges. Try it sometime. Shoot a few pristine bullets, then bang up a few and shoot them. Within about 20 yards, I don't think you'll see much difference in accuracy.

Just my 2 cents.....FWIW
Sam Sackett

[45DUDE]

I would say whoever shot the best group was right. I like these posts. People screwing up give me the edge.

[charlie b]

.....This is the reason I want to make my own cast boolits harder, is this unnecessary?

Yes, it is unnecessary in most cases. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it if you want to.

As mentioned above, the commercial casters make bullets that will withstand shipping so they use harder alloys. If you want the same kind of durability for some reason, then use a harder alloy.

FWIW, the term 'hard cast' for commercial bullets originated a long time ago and was used to differentiate from the cast bullets made for black powder that were soft. There were also swaged bullets, like wadcutters, that were soft.

[Eddie17]

My main source of lead is hard! So that’s what I shoot.

[Cherokee]

Over the years I have been blessed with Linotype and Tin. Obtaining lead has been the more difficult for me. I tried using a Lee hardness tester and could not get the hang of it. Whereas I once used a Lyman #2 alloy (conventional wisdom of the time) for WC to Magnum bullets, I have changed due to experience and knowledge, to softer alloys, but still harder than most shooters on this board. Based on one test series with 9mm, I found that 2% Tin 3% antimony was not up to the task, it took 3% & 3% to get the desired results. I use 2% tin with COWW that works for anything hand held. Everything else gets 3% & 3% alloy. It works for me without leading and I have the blending alloys. Like has already been said, what works for one may be different for another. In todays' world, I would start with soft and work up to harder as proven necessary by your shooting results. Make sure they are sized for the throat. A lot of leading problem result from fit rather than alloy. Most of all, enjoy making them and sending them downrange.

[Mk42gunner]

Personally, I think the term "hard cast, or cast hard" has many different meanings, most of them misunderstood. Go back and read some of Elmer Keith's articles from the 1920's to the 1970's, he referred to 16-1 as hard IIRC, which today seems quite soft.

When I started reading gun magazines in the 70's there were very few articles about casting boolets, most everything that I recall at least inferred that jacketed was better for everything; and if you had to use cast it needed to be "hard" with no real definition of what hard consisted of.

Then in the later 80's mail order bullets became a reality, with the hard crayon lubes that didn't work very well. I remember finding a lot of store bought cast bullets in the berms still with full lube grooves. It was an eye opening experience once I started using FWFL to find boolits in the berm with empty lube grooves.

To me Lyman #5 at a supposed 15 BHN is tending towards the hard side, but I have a problem with it in that the recipe calls for various mixtures with WW as the primary component. Wheel weights are not a set composition, in this thread alone I have seen reference to them being from ~10.? to 14.? BHN (my last batch went 12.5). How can you make a consistent mixture when the primary component varies so much?

The more experience I get casting and shooting cast bullets, the more I tend to go softer on my alloy mixtures. I think fit and a good lube matter more than an arbitrary term like hard cast.

Robert

[tmanbuckhunter]

Commercial bullets, (un)conventional wisdom, and inexperience is why you are seeing this. Plain and simple.

[mdi]

I started casting about 3 weeks ago, so I'm a complete noob. I've been casting 45 ACP round nose (Lyman 45 Caliber 225 Grain 452 diameter mold). I've tested my cast boolits with the Lee hardness tester and got 11.8 as the result. This should be good to go, however I've noticed that my boolits behave differently than the boolits I've bought from companies like Brazos Bullet Company. The boolits from Brazos don't dent when dropped onto a concrete floor from a height of about 3 feet. Also, the tips do not deform when run through a bullet feeder tube. My own cast boolits do dent when dropped on the floor, and the round nose tips also flatten out a small amount when I stack them and run them through a Lee bullet feeder tube for seating. This is the reason I want to make my own cast boolits harder, is this unnecessary?

My answer may not fit your question, but I don't drop my cast bullets from 3' onto a concrete floor. I don't worry about a bullet feeder "flattening" my bullet's nose. I know that my most accurate and best overall performing bullets in my 45 ACP guns runs about 11-12 BHN. Most commercial cast bullets are hard enough to survive shipping (and dropping on a concrete floor) more so then good performance. But good fitting bullets of 18 BHN may work in some guns, but I much prefer "soft cast" (!??!) bullets for most of my handguns. I do have some Lyman #2 and a "Mystery Metal" of 15-16 BHN that works well in my 9mm pistols (after a few hundred tested). I have cast a lot of various bullets for my 5, 44 Magnums and my "normal" handgun alloy has survived some plain based 240 gr SWC over max. loads of WC820 out of my Ruger SBH and my Dan Wesson 44H to approx. 1,300 fps with no excess leading (before I got a chrony)...

I haven't read all the replies, but I'm sure someone will mention that "Mr. 44" did a lot of heavy shooting with 16-1 (11 BHN) and 20-1(10 BHN).

[Soundguy]

Seems like harder or way harder than needed is just a waste of alloy. 22bhn is what? Linotype? That's like shooting straight linotype bullets... Ouch...

[flint45]

I don’t use hard cast bullets for much WW metal is good for most of my shooting. I have found the hard lubes are also difficult my homemade lube works great for me.

[Methuselah3]

I don’t use hard cast bullets for much WW metal is good for most of my shooting. I have found the hard lubes are also difficult my homemade lube works great for me.

Are you using the homeade lube on bullets with the lube grooves. ?I've been in a mind quandary over the topic. The molds I use for Alox lube are Lee with the shallow mini lube grooves. The rest seems to get rubbed off in sizing.

[dtknowles]

I believe in horses for courses. Use what performs best for the application or use whatever if you have no application specific requirements.

Soft lead for Muzzleloaders - the why's and where for's and how soft is soft enough is its own subject.

Not much harder lead for low velocity pistol and rifle bullets unless you just don't have soft lead and would rather use what you have. If you use harder lead make sure they are big enough.

Magnum handguns running full blast and mid velocity rifles, now you are getting into Lyman #2 range unless you are powder coating, using a gas check or want the bullet to expand. If you want the bullet to expand it will need to be soft. You might get leading with a softish bullet even with a gas check but if you are wanting expansion then you are probably willing to live with a little leading that you will have to clean out after a hunting or self-defence situation or you are going to need to PowderCoat/HiTech.

Over 2000 fps even #2 alloy is sometimes not hard enough for good accuracy and best accuracy requires either heat treated bullets or Linotype. Not just any old lube will hold up at these velocities either.

While I can afford the best metals, I am still frugal and don't use more tin or antimony than I need to get the best accuracy. Harder is not always better accuracy wise but it is rarely worse if the bullet is the right size.

Flat spot on the nose of a roundnose 45 acp bullet should not be a problem in any way. I use a flat punch when sizing my roundnose 9mm bullets, I like them to come out as roundnose flat points but I am careful that they all get the same flatness. The acronym is RNFP. I have some molds that cast them that way for .38 Special/357 Mag

Tim

[bangerjim]

10-12 hardness here. Nothing greater unless it's "hyper sonic sooper-dooper-looper" 30 cal rifle boolits for the 30-06.

Cast what you want. I do not need hard lead, especially with PC on every round.

The old school thoughts on hard lead are a thing of the past, what with new data on PC'd rounds.

Save your hard lead for sweetening pure to make 10-12.

Like said - com casters ship waaaaay harder lead than needed to prevent damage in transit. I had a few thousand of com-cast BIG 45's for my long colt guns I gradually melted into pure and made perfect boolits at 10-12. Did not want them, as they were old fashioned sticky grease lubed and was much easier to melt down than boil off grease lube grease and PC.

Cast & shoot what works for you. We all have different ideas of what works for each of us and our specific guns.

[Rcmaveric]

If you get good results. Don't change. I won't knock someone for not using what I use. We do need to keep in mind that too hard of a bullet can also cause issue just as bad as too soft.

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