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View Full Version : 135 grain HP boolit to mimic the Speer 135 grain Gold Dot Short Barrel boolit



Ohio Rusty
02-28-2021, 10:52 PM
I carry a scandium .357 for CCW. The boolits I carry are the speer GD short barrel .357 and the speer .38 GD short barrel. Both rounds carry a 135 grain HP boolit. I'd like to have a mould made that can duplicate a 135 grain HP boolit load. The boolit would need to have a wide and deep lube groove below the crimp groove as firing these at 1000 fps, the wide lube groove would carry enough lube to help prevent leading in these higher velocity practice rounds. A round nose flat point configuration that contains the hollow point would be perfect!!! This boolit can look like most of the 158 grain .357 HP boolits being cut by NOE only I need a boolit that drops at 135 grains. Is there any interest from the list members about having a boolit like this be submitted to NOE or MIHA to be made ?? Any boolit Honcho's would like to chime in please ??
Ohio Rusty ><>

Wasalmonslayer
03-01-2021, 12:47 AM
If there is enough interest I could draft this and set up the buy.
Only thing I would need is a couple bullets so I can get some measurement.

Let me know
WS

Ohio Rusty
03-01-2021, 09:38 PM
I have a some from a 6 banger mould that lee made a few years ago. The lube grooves were designed for a tumble lube design and that is really bad. The lube groove needs to be like on a normal bullet wider and deeper. I can send you some of these boolits if you PM me your mailing address.
Ohio Rusty ><>

justindad
03-09-2021, 09:22 PM
If it works in .357 SIG, I’ll be interested. My Lyman manual says no Lyman mold cast boolits fit the SIG, but I’ve loaded with a cast bullet from Hunter’s Supply.

Can we get a hi-tek option?

Wasalmonslayer
03-12-2021, 12:12 AM
Got the samples from Ohio Rusty and working on the mods needed.

What are your thoughts on this one??
HP version drops 5 grains to 130
279408279409

Low Budget Shooter
03-12-2021, 12:54 PM
Ohio Rusty and Wasalmonslayer, this looks like a great project to me. The Speer formula of modest expansion and good penetration at about 1,000 fps with 135 gr bullet seems very good for my 2 1/2" .357 snubbies. I'd really like to try it. I like the draft as shown, but have these suggestions:
-HP weight should be no less than 135 gr with a medium alloy like 1:1 COWW:SOWW. We can already get 130 gr with molds already available like MP-125. Accidentally getting 140 gr would be fine with me, but I don't really want to pay for a new mold and get 130 gr, which I already have.
-I like a step down from shoulder to beginning of ogive of .001-.005" for clean lubesizing
-Speer expands to only .55", and so gives good penetration even at only 135 grains. I'm not sure what cavity specs we can use to not have this bullet expand to .65" or .70" and not penetrate. If possible, three HP pin sets should be included: standard round as shown in draft, larger penta, smaller penta. I'm guessing that at 1000 fps, the small penta will give us the controlled expansion desired.
Thanks for reading my suggestions, which are worth what you paid for them!
LBS

Wasalmonslayer
03-12-2021, 04:01 PM
Going to add a gas check version as quick as I can draft it up sorry for not doing that first!

I think this hp with the right alloy will allow good expansion without just blowing the whole nose off.
We could shrink it a little bit more too just for good measure and I believe expansion will still be real good.

Thanks
WS

Wasalmonslayer
03-12-2021, 04:09 PM
We can inch up the weight by making the bullet a touch longer too easy peasy just keep the thoughts rolling and we can make mods to as needed to hit the ideal bullet once everyone weights in.

I like the idea of a little heavier around 140 solid 135 hp.

Ohio Rusty
03-13-2021, 08:08 PM
Wasalmonslater ... the 140 solid and 135 grain HP is a great idea. I like that option as there is load dats in the Lyman cast boolit manual for the 140 grain boolit. The 135 grain would be the boolit size I would shoot most of the time. Thanks for the great specs you posted. Looks great !!
Ohio Rusty ><>

Wasalmonslayer
03-14-2021, 12:36 AM
Do you guys want a crimp groove or not?
I’ll draft a 140 grain and see what it looks like.

Minerat
03-14-2021, 01:22 AM
I like the 135/140 GC idea with a crimp groove. Don't know if NOE does penta pins. Those have the most distinct peddle expansion more like the gold dot but Mehi is taking so long to run the buys that is a draw back. I'm in no matter which way it goes.

Wasalmonslayer
03-14-2021, 01:27 AM
I will chat with Miha and see what he thinks for timing once the design is final.
NOE does not offer penta so MP is the route we will go.

Wasalmonslayer
03-14-2021, 01:52 AM
Here it is stretched to 140 grains as a plain base made of ww + 2% tin.
It will be 135 gr as a gas check HP and 136 gr as a plain base HP

THOUGHTS??

279544

Minerat
03-14-2021, 02:06 AM
Looks good to me.!

Ohio Rusty
03-14-2021, 10:43 AM
That is a beautiful boolit you drafted WAsalmonslayer - 140 solid, 135 gr HPGC with a crimp groove ..... PERFECT !!!! Thanks so much for doing the specs and picture. I'm ready to buy this mould when available .... This may be one of the best snubbie boolits we can cast ...
Ohio Rusty ><>

bronte454
03-21-2021, 11:29 AM
If it is an MP mold I’d buy that . 135 HP would be great in a couple or 3 different cases .

Cord
03-21-2021, 12:12 PM
Excellent idea from the OP, and a great looking drawing.

I'm in for this.
.

Wasalmonslayer
03-22-2021, 12:22 AM
If you guys are happy I can start a group buy.

Please let me know.

Thanks
WS

bowfin
03-22-2021, 12:27 PM
I would be part of a group buy for this mold.

Cord
03-22-2021, 02:35 PM
We all know that the 135 GD is more than just a 135 grain slug;
there is technology that we can't easily incorporate into a cast boolit.

But I have some of them, and I'm thinking I should try to cut one in half tomorrow
and see if there is anything we can learn from the shape of the cavity...
.

Minerat
03-22-2021, 05:49 PM
If you guys are happy I can start a group buy.

Please let me know.

Thanks
WS

As I said I'm in!

Steve

hc18flyer
03-22-2021, 06:07 PM
I would be part of a group buy for this mold.

I would be interested too. hc18flyer

Low Budget Shooter
03-25-2021, 03:46 PM
I'm interested! Thanks for working on this.

Wasalmonslayer
03-25-2021, 08:47 PM
I will try and get a buy rollin this weekend for us.

Thank you for all the input!

Cord
03-25-2021, 10:48 PM
I didn't think the dimensions of the actual Speer Gold dot would apply to a cast copy so I didn't offer samples.
Wasalmonslayer, if you want a few let me know and I will send them.

My thoughts changed when I read this post:

"My experience has been that most .38 Special JHP bullets do not expand appreciably below about 850 fps. The notable exception is
the Speer 135 grain Gold Dot "Short Barrel" loads which expand reliably at 800 fps., attainable within standard pressure
from 2-inch barrel guns assembled to Mean Assembly Tolerance of pass 0.005"/hold 0.006" using 4.3-4.4 grains of Bullseye."

-Outpost 75 http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?420604-38-special

So it seemed to me that we are really seeking the performance of the 135 Gold dot and not its shape.
That's why it would be worth a look inside to see if we could learn anything.
It was harder than I thought to cut it....
280179280180

The hollow cavity does have an odd shape, almost an ogive to it.
If we want this to expand like a real 135 Gold dot we may want a deep pin.
I can take some measurements if that would be helpful.

It would be great if this boolit of ours would expand at 800 fps....

And I kinda mangled it in the cutting process, that's why the left side is ugly....
.

Wasalmonslayer
03-26-2021, 01:06 AM
It looks as thou the mouth has a thin opening, radius to the cavity, serrations in the jacket to help it curl open.
The best thing we could do in the hp world is use a semi deep penta pin that makes the mouth opening quite wide and have it taper to a point about 2/3 of the way to the crimp so the mouth will roll open nicely.
Speed will have to be regulated around 850 and the cast alloy will need to be soft with some tin to make it malleable.

Lakehouse2012
03-26-2021, 01:14 AM
Here it is stretched to 140 grains as a plain base made of ww + 2% tin.
It will be 135 gr as a gas check HP and 136 gr as a plain base HP

THOUGHTS??

279544

Golden! sign me up!

Wasalmonslayer
03-26-2021, 01:40 AM
Figured you might like this one amigo :) :drinks:

dimaprok
03-26-2021, 05:19 AM
Here it is stretched to 140 grains as a plain base made of ww + 2% tin.
It will be 135 gr as a gas check HP and 136 gr as a plain base HP

THOUGHTS??

279544

YES PLEASE! Been looking for such bullet for a while now! I am currently on GB for 158 but what I really want is THIS!!! You pretty much hit all the bullet points, gas check, crimp groove, hollow point. Maybe just a tad bit deeper HP or couple different pins one for less and one for more. Looks fantastic!

glockky
03-26-2021, 09:44 AM
I’m in

Wasalmonslayer
03-26-2021, 03:44 PM
I was thinking 4 HP pins deep, penta to mirror GD HP cavity, cup point, flat

Cord
03-27-2021, 12:29 AM
Almost all of us have probably seen pictures of expanded Gold Dots showing
the small gold dot in the center of the recovered slug.

I never really understood the purpose of it, but now that I have cut one open
and thought about what happens when the hollow point expands, it makes sense.

If you look at the picture of the cross sectioned slug above in post 25,
you can see that sliced through dot is actually a good bit below the bottom of the open cavity.

That, I think, is effectively the true, real bottom of the HP cavity, there at the gold dot,
right at the top of the cannelure, because that is the point we have seen it will open up to.

It makes sense that when the petals open up they are thinner and easier to spread,
then as they thicken and there is more metal to move resistance increases and the expansion would slow....
but then the lead breaks away from the embedded dot, which acts as a stress relieving point.

The dot may be as important to full expansion as the serrations in the jacket.

I realized this by looking at the other side of the sectioned slug where a chunk of lead
broke away from the dot by itself. The petals would break away in the same fashion.

280246

So perhaps there should be a long pin down to the crimp groove for use in 38 Special,
and a shorter pin for use in .357 Magum, so that each pin would create balanced
expansion and penetration depending on the speed of the cartridge they're loaded in.

I think this is what Low Budget Shooter was suggesting.

I don't even know if a deep penta pin is possible, just kicking around ideas.

The boolit drawing looks great and the right pins could make this a truly outstanding mold.
I will order a PB and a Gas Check version, for sure.
.

Minerat
03-27-2021, 10:39 AM
I was thinking 4 HP pins deep, penta to mirror GD HP cavity, cup point, flat

That would be good with me. I tend to use all 4 pins in my other Mehi molds, and miss the pents in those where they were not offered.

Wasalmonslayer
03-28-2021, 09:17 AM
I can draw it up with a pin for both ways no issue at all.

But what I will say on a lead hp bullet with that large of hollow point they are very hard to seat in the case without deforming the nose/hp and if not regulated to the proper velocity it will just blow the nose off.
You have no jacket to regulate it and slow it down.
So basically you end up with a wadcutter as the nose petals just strip away and break off.

An all lead bullet needs a balance between expansion and strength to support the mushroomed nose.

Not try to tell you guys we can make it that way just trying to explain what I have experienced with all my hp testing on all lead bullets.

I think a nice hp all the way to the crimp is a great idea for 38’s but we should narrow the opening just a little so it is able to be seated without just collapsing. The other option is you would have to make custom seating stems for your bullet seating die which I have done as well.
Only issue there is not everyone has a lathe to machine there own.

Just food for thought I will draft a deep and shallow and post them up for inspection and thoughts.

ddixie884
03-28-2021, 09:46 AM
Almost all of us have probably seen pictures of expanded Gold Dots showing
the small gold dot in the center of the recovered slug.

I never really understood the purpose of it, but now that I have cut one open
and thought about what happens when the hollow point expands, it makes sense.

If you look at the picture of the cross sectioned slug above in post 25,
you can see that sliced through dot is actually a good bit below the bottom of the open cavity.

That, I think, is effectively the true, real bottom of the HP cavity, there at the gold dot,
right at the top of the cannelure, because that is the point we have seen it will open up to.

It makes sense that when the petals open up they are thinner and easier to spread,
then as they thicken and there is more metal to move resistance increases and the expansion would slow....
but then the lead breaks away from the embedded dot, which acts as a stress relieving point.

The dot may be as important to full expansion as the serrations in the jacket.

I realized this by looking at the other side of the sectioned slug where a chunk of lead
broke away from the dot by itself. The petals would break away in the same fashion.

280246

So perhaps there should be a long pin down to the crimp groove for use in 38 Special,
and a shorter pin for use in .357 Magum, so that each pin would create balanced
expansion and penetration depending on the speed of the cartridge they're loaded in.

I think this is what Low Budget Shooter was suggesting.

I don't even know if a deep penta pin is possible, just kicking around ideas.

The boolit drawing looks great and the right pins could make this a truly outstanding mold.
I will order a PB and a Gas Check version, for sure.
.

Thanx for the sectioned view............

Wasalmonslayer
03-28-2021, 10:32 AM
280342280343280348280344

Here is the deep and shallow

Deep is 131 grains
Shallow is 135 grains
Plain base 142 grains
No Lube Groove is 146 grains

Let me know your thoughts

Thank You
WS

Cord
03-28-2021, 11:27 AM
Wasalmonslayer.....I completely agree with you regarding a thin rim on a soft lead boolit.

I once had HP Mold Service HP a 410459 with a pin so large it was really difficult to seat the boolit into the case without deforming it,
the pin was too wide at the mouth and I ended up chucking it into a press and sanding it down a bit...
Lead soft enough that the nose wouldn't blow off was hard to seat without spreading.
Lead hard enough to seat easily would fragment on impact.

I am just wanting to offer information regarding the Gold Dot aspect of this project.

We won't have a true Gold Dot but I think we will be as close as we can get with cast lead, and everything looks great so far!

.

Minerat
03-28-2021, 11:51 AM
I can draw it up with a pin for both ways no issue at all.

But what I will say on a lead hp bullet with that large of hollow point they are very hard to seat in the case without deforming the nose/hp and if not regulated to the proper velocity it will just blow the nose off.
You have no jacket to regulate it and slow it down.
So basically you end up with a wadcutter as the nose petals just strip away and break off.

An all lead bullet needs a balance between expansion and strength to support the mushroomed nose.

Not try to tell you guys we can make it that way just trying to explain what I have experienced with all my hp testing on all lead bullets.

I think a nice hp all the way to the crimp is a great idea for 38’s but we should narrow the opening just a little so it is able to be seated without just collapsing. The other option is you would have to make custom seating stems for your bullet seating die which I have done as well.
Only issue there is not everyone has a lathe to machine there own.

Just food for thought I will draft a deep and shallow and post them up for inspection and thoughts.

I'll defer to you judgment on the depth for this one. Just having a pent hp will make me happy.:grin:

Wasalmonslayer
03-28-2021, 12:04 PM
If you guys are happy I think this will be a dang fine bullet made this way!

Cord
03-28-2021, 02:42 PM
It's not a very big boolit, all things considered....
A deep penta would only be 1/3 of an inch long...
Same base as a short penta, just steeper sides, and should be doable....

Go for it !
.

Wasalmonslayer
03-28-2021, 04:38 PM
You are correct deep pin is only .300 long

Greg S
03-28-2021, 08:17 PM
I'm in for a brass 4 cavity GC with all the pins.

justindad
03-28-2021, 11:35 PM
I’ll get two

4 cavity brass, no lube groove, all pins, plain base

4 cavity brass, with lube grooves, all pins, gas check

Keyman
03-29-2021, 11:51 AM
I’ll get one of each

4 cavity brass, no lube groove, all pins, plain base

4 cavity brass, with lube grooves, all pins, gas check

Ohio Rusty
04-04-2021, 06:19 PM
I like both the deep and shallow HP boolit for both .38 and .357. This looks like an excellent boolit Wasalmonslayer. I'd like the 2 cavity brass with the lube grooves and the gas check and all the pins. What a great boolit for the snub nose revolver.
Ohio Rusty ><>

Wasalmonslayer
04-05-2021, 09:07 PM
I will get an official buy thread going soon
Sorry it’s taking me so long works crazy and kid sports finally opened so my kids are finally getting to perticipate and get their juices flowing.

Wasalmonslayer
04-06-2021, 08:19 PM
This is the discussion thread so if you want one please got to the link below and list your wants with disguised email addy.
I am not going to transfer everyone over sorry!

It is live go here to sign up - https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?422914-MP-359-135-Gold-Dot-HP-Clone-Group-Buy