Evil lead fouling...causes and cures

[Spin Drifter]

Hi All, first post here. Just a little background on myself first. I started loading and casting in the late eighties. I was on a shoestring budget, but had a good mentor. I had a handful of Lee molds and cast wad cutters and Semi wadcutters for .38 and .32, tumble lubed, never sized and had excellent success. I was away from shooting sports for a number of years and got interested again in recent years. I bought a new Ruger GP100, blued 4" barrel. I have had severe fouling problems from the git go. It even fouled on copper jacketed bullets! I put the gun away and didn't shoot it for a while. I recently shot a few rounds through it and it was wildly inaccurate. I looked in the muzzle and it was clearly fouled so I put it back in my range bag and just shot my .22 for the rest of the session. I have tried a Lewis Lead remover, and every kind of solvent that I can find and have spent a lot of time trying to clean this thing and have succeeded in getting some shiny glitter out on my patches, but the bore is still fouled. I wonder if I have ever actually gotten it clean after the first time I fired it. I would like to fire lap this gun, but I'm afraid to until I am confident that it is actually clean. 278730 This is what it looks like now.Thanx for any insights.

[Outpost75]

Correct loads shouldn't lead. Your bullets are either too small, too hard or both and your lube is too hard to flow upon discharge so that it fails to provide boundary layer lubrication.

I shoot 1 to 30 tin-lead from Roto Metals in full charge loads in my .44 Magnums, lubing with 40-60 Dexron ATF and beeswax and get no leading whatever. I size bullets to fit the cylinder throat diameter. IGNORE barrel groove diameter, size to throat diameter and you get no leading.

[Sam Sackett]

Another thing you might want to check when you do get the barrel clean. I have had the same issue before and finally realized the barrel was roughly finished on the inside. Didn't matter what I shot, I got serious fouling. I saturated tight patches with Flitz and started polishing the barrel. Got to where I could shoot jacketed bullets with no fouling. Progress! Kept on with the Flitz patches until the bore had a mirror finish. Now it shoots cast without leading.

First things are to verify your bullet is big enough, then check the lube. If you are buying lead bullets, they usually have a very hard lube which, in my opinion, is junk. I prefer a soft lube. I make my own, either beeswax and Vaseline or Ben's Red. No issues with either one.

You can melt the lube off purchased bullets and hand lube a few to try.

Sam Sackett

[Spin Drifter]

Thanx Sam, I could see the machine marks in the barrel when I first got it new. I used JB bore polish with felt pellets until the grooves were shiny. My chamber throats measure .357, so that is what I size my bullets to. I use #2 alloy and tried tumble lube, but switched to SPG since I use it for BPC. My thinking is that the rough surface scrubbed off material in the beginning and even though I have worked hard to clean the gun I'm wondering if I was just polishing lead and was mistaken when I thought that it was clean. When I shoot it again the old fouling is just scrubbing off more material and / or preventing a good gas seal which only makes it worse. My first concern now is how to get it truly clean.

[Conditor22]

Welcome to cast boolits Spin Drifter

#2 (15 bhn) is really hard for 357 I use 10 bhn. A harder boolit won't obturate (expand) very well to fill the bore

do your .357 sized boolits slide easily through your cylinder throats? then you may need larger boolits. I don't know what my throats are but I always have sized .358 for my 357 mag and 38 spcl

The best way to clean fouling out of a barrel is to use copper strands from copper chore boy https://www.amazon.com/Chore-Boy-Copper-Scouring-Pad-2ct/dp/B006K3XS5A/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=copper+chore+boy&qid=1614562490&sr=8-1 wrapped around a bore brush.

[Spin Drifter]

Thanx Conditor22, the .357 do not slide easily, but go with a gentle push. Thanx for the Chore Boy tip. I'll try it. Once I'm confident that it is clean I can try a softer alloy. I don't have a tester, but it's easy enough to add a bit of pure lead to the mix.

[onelight]

The Chore Boy might help worth a try but I have much faster success with the Lewis Lead remover.
My point is if the Lewis won't do it I'll be surprised if the Chore Boy will.

[Spin Drifter]

I'll give it a try and report back.

[GhostHawk]

I had my best luck removing lead with very tight patches dampened with ATF, ie Dextron II or III.

Pull a wet patch through, let it sit for an hour. Then a very tight patch. Then a wet patch and sit.

May take a few days but eventually you should have a clean barrel.

Once you do, bullet fit is king.

Personally I would rather shoot unsized .359 or .360 cast than take a chance on a sized .357 being too small.

All the other variables do come into play, charge, lube, speed, alloy, etc.

But bullet fit FIRST.

[Wheelguns 1961]

If your barrel has bad fouling, I can’t tell from your picture, an overnight soaking of the barrel in kroil has worked good for me. Using this method, I have had the lead come out in ribbons from the grooves.

[Bazoo]

Welcome to the forum.

I use choreboy and I'll detail my technique. First I use a brush that's of caliber or thereabouts, worn if I have it. If I don't have it I'll use a new one. I cut the choreboy in a strip about 6" long and about 2" wide. I wrap it around the brush tight. It will be 3/4" or more in diameter. I use a length of aluminum rifle cleaning rod, with a U bent on the end for a handle. I place that in the bore, and screw the choreboy brush on the end through the cylinder opening in the frame. I normally use some remoil or hoppes for lube. Then I pull and turn the choreboy brush in the barrel forcing cone, it's normally so tight I can pull as hard as I want. Spinning it this way it will contour to the front end of the barrel and forcing cone and scrub it clean in only a minute. Then, if it will do it I pull the choreboy brush into the bore and scrub it a few minutes. It's so tight if it pulls out of the muzzle I can't reinsert it except back through the frame opening.

If when I try for the bore I can't get the choreboy brush to start, I'll unwrap a few turns, or save that brush for just forcing cone work and make another slightly looser one for the bore. Starting at the frame opening, you have a tapered lead into the bore and can get a very tight brush in.


This is the way I do it when I scrub leading.

[farmbif]

ive seen some rugers, new in the store right out of the box that were extremely rough, this was about a dozen years age and then again when they started with the 327. I could easily see rough finish in the bore and a couple 327 double actions, vice marks indenting the outside of barrel. maybe they got a batch of em that were built early on a Monday or late on a Friday or something . I'd take some valve grinding compound on a brass brush and try to polish that bore, or maybe try fire lapping, if I got stuck with one of these poorly finished guns.

[Spin Drifter]

Thanx Bazoo. This sounds like a good way to go. I'll have a session with it tonight.

[Spin Drifter]

ive seen some rugers, new in the store right out of the box that were extremely rough, this was about a dozen years age and then again when they started with the 327. I could easily see rough finish in the bore and a couple 327 double actions, vice marks indenting the outside of barrel. maybe they got a batch of em that were built early on a Monday or late on a Friday or something . I'd take some valve grinding compound on a brass brush and try to polish that bore, or maybe try fire lapping, if I got stuck with one of these poorly finished guns.
This barrel was rough as could be when new. I suspect that it scrubbed off material early on and even though I thought that I was getting it clean I wasn't. I was essentially polishing lead deposits. If I can ever get it truly clean I want to fire lap it. I already have a batch of solid lead, unsized wadcutters that have been given the LBT treatment that are waiting to be loaded. I still believe that this piece could turn out to be a real shooter. I have the action and trigger just as sweet as can be.

[oley55]

Lead fouling removal aside, Ruger revolvers are another subject. I generally try to avoid labeling one brand of weapon being better or worse than others, but Ruger revolvers are sometimes problematic. They are (or used to be) occasionally manufactured with undersized cylinder throats in relation to barrel dimensions. I have a mid-80's Ruger Speed-Six that I just love to shoot. It just fits me I guess, but I have yet to adequately solve it's leading issues. I suspect the throats are undersized, but have not been able to accurately measure those danged 5 groove slugs (and buying a 5 flute (108%), V-anvil micrometer is quite pricey). At best, I am only guestimating slugged groove measurements. I have slugged and pin gauged my throats, but I am still guessing about the barrel. If some day I finally get accurate barrel measurements and find the throats are indeed too small. I'll likely find someone to open up the throats for me.

Just now while typing this it occurred to me that I should slug the breach end (just after the forcing cone) of the barrel and then push it back out the breach, Then try to pass that slug through my cylinder throats. If it won't fall through, that's likely a problem. I still won't have an accurate barrel groove measurement, but I will have confirmation of undersized throats.

From your pic the GP100 appears to be a five lands barrel as well. So accurately measuring your barrels forcing cone and muzzle will be difficult.

As per Marshall Stanton's, Beartooth Bullets Technical Guide, pages 49-52, for revolvers "the best fit for a bullet to a revolver, is that fit in the cylinder throats. The bullet should be just a good slip fit through this area described....." Too loose the bullet may yaw, too tight and the bullet is being swaged down in the cylinder throats.

edit: I just tried passing a previously made slug through the cylinders and they went through with very slight to no resistance. If I am thinking correctly this means my throats and barrel are very nearly identical in size, when the throats should actually be (.001-,002") larger. (??)

[Burnt Fingers]

I don't have a Lewis Lead Remover. I use brass pipe screens over a tight fitting patch and jag.

Bore Tech Eliminator is a good cleaner to remove light leading.

Shooter's Choice Lead Remover works on heavier leading.

Mercury will remove leading VERY quickly.

I use "the dip". You have to be very careful when using it as it produces lead acetate which is highly toxic.

[Conditor22]

Testing hardness with pencils is an easy/economical process http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?378866-Lead-hardness-pencil-testing-trick.

[Spin Drifter]

I want to thank everyone for their input on this. I tried the Chore Boy technique as per Bazoo's instructions. I got a little more out, but only a little. I decided to "call Uncle"....Actually I called Ruger Customer Service and my revolver is about to take a little trip up north to the Doctor.

[Spin Drifter]

Testing hardness with pencils is an easy/economical process http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?378866-Lead-hardness-pencil-testing-trick.

Cool stuff! I'll take some time with this to see what I can learn. Thanx.

[Spin Drifter]

Lead fouling removal aside, Ruger revolvers are another subject. I generally try to avoid labeling one brand of weapon being better or worse than others, but Ruger revolvers are sometimes problematic. They are (or used to be) occasionally manufactured with undersized cylinder throats in relation to barrel dimensions. I have a mid-80's Ruger Speed-Six that I just love to shoot. It just fits me I guess, but I have yet to adequately solve it's leading issues. I suspect the throats are undersized, but have not been able to accurately measure those danged 5 groove slugs (and buying a 5 flute (108%), V-anvil micrometer is quite pricey). At best, I am only guestimating slugged groove measurements. I have slugged and pin gauged my throats, but I am still guessing about the barrel. If some day I finally get accurate barrel measurements and find the throats are indeed too small. I'll likely find someone to open up the throats for me.

Just now while typing this it occurred to me that I should slug the breach end (just after the forcing cone) of the barrel and then push it back out the breach, Then try to pass that slug through my cylinder throats. If it won't fall through, that's likely a problem. I still won't have an accurate barrel groove measurement, but I will have confirmation of undersized throats.

From your pic the GP100 appears to be a five lands barrel as well. So accurately measuring your barrels forcing cone and muzzle will be difficult.

As per Marshall Stanton's, Beartooth Bullets Technical Guide, pages 49-52, for revolvers "the best fit for a bullet to a revolver, is that fit in the cylinder throats. The bullet should be just a good slip fit through this area described....." Too loose the bullet may yaw, too tight and the bullet is being swaged down in the cylinder throats.

edit: I just tried passing a previously made slug through the cylinders and they went through with very slight to no resistance. If I am thinking correctly this means my throats and barrel are very nearly identical in size, when the throats should actually be (.001-,002") larger. (??)
Oley, I have an older Sp101 in .32 Magnum that had the chamber throats tighter than the groove diameter. I sent it back to Ruger and now I can't remember what all they did. I haven't shot cast in it in a long time. I just won an auction on Gunbroker for some HBWC bullets. I intend to try them with milder loads, hoping that the hollow base will obturate nonetheless. We'll see. On this gun I haven't actually tried to measure the bore diameter. I slugged the chamber throats and measured the slugs. They were .357. It will be interesting to see what Ruger has to say about this gun.

[bruce381]

do this size to .358 and MAY have to have cylinder throats reamed to .358+ see Doug Guy on this forum.

[Sam Sackett]

Another thing you may try....... I have not tried this, as I don't have a problem with leading, but some say that it works.

Load up about 10 cartridges using this method:
1) Size, Prime and charge with powder as normal. Maybe a 3 grain load of Bullseye or similar.
2) Add cornmeal on top of the powder to where the base of the bullet will be.
3) Seat the bullet as normal.
4) Go out & shoot'em.

When you fire these, the pressure forces the cornmeal to scrub the junk out of the barrel. A few shots should tell you whether it works or not. As I said above, I haven't done this, just going by what others have said. YMMV

Sam Sackett

[Wooserco]

Outers used to sell an electrolytic cleaning system for removing both lead fouling and copper fouling from bores. I used to have one and it worked great. I seem to remember a number of posts about a similar home made set up.

It was called "Foul Out." Do a Google search and something should come up.

I had one in an earlier life and it worked great.

[Spin Drifter]

That's interesting. Years ago I had a cap and ball revolver that was inaccurate. Someone suggested that I reduce the load and use corn meal as filler. It worked beautifully. The gun settled down and grouped nicely although it was a pretty mild load. I ended up trading it at my local gun shop. A year of so later an acquaintance asked me if I knew anything about cap and ball guns. I said a little. He showed me his revolver and said that it was inaccurate. I recognized it as my old gun. I told him about the corn meal trick and later he told me that it worked wonders.

[Spin Drifter]

Outers used to sell an electrolytic cleaning system for removing both lead fouling and copper fouling from bores. I used to have one and it worked great. I seem to remember a number of posts about a similar home made set up.

It was called "Foul Out." Do a Google search and something should come up.

I had one in an earlier life and it worked great.


Looks like a nice way to go. It appears that they are discontinued now. I'll be curious as to what Ruger has to say about mine.

[Spin Drifter]

Follow up: I just got the gun back from Ruger. They only cleaned it. They sent it back with a test target. The group was impressive. Many times I have cleaned this gun and returned to the range only to have it shoot extremely well for a few rounds and then accuracy would deteriorate as fouling accumulated. I'm thinking that my next move will be to load some fairly mild wadcutter loads and put a few through it and see how it behaves.