30-06 cases tight in chamber

[Jim P.]

I just started reloading 30-06 and I have a Rcbs JR3 press and I bought a set of Lyman All-American full length dies. I have a Lee shell holder. When I set my die, I raise the ram all the way up and screw the die down until it contacts the shell holder hard. After I size the cases and put them in my savage axis the bolt will barely close. It seems I need to bump the shoulder back a few more thousandths. Could I just grind a few thousandths off the end of the die to allow for setting it a little closer to the shell plate. I am a machinist so I would be using a precision grinding machine.

[Three44s]

What does your rifle do with factory ammo? Have you tried a few brands?

Take a layer of cellophane tape over the head of an unfired factory load. Does that make your bolt tighten up some if there is no resistance with un altered factory loads (with tape)?

Do you have another brand of cases to size with your current handloading dies.

Are the cases that you are having trouble with fired from your Axis rifle or from another gun?

Bottom line: It could be the brass, the rifle or the dies or a combination of these.

I do a fair number of barrel swaps with Savage bolt guns and if your rifle has a rather short headspace you could ease up on it yourself.

Another thing to try before cutting on your sizing die is to use a black marking pen and color a well degreased but sized case. The bright marks will tell you where the bind is.

Good luck!

Three44s

[Winger Ed.]

I'd draw all over one with a sharpie, chamber it, pull it out and see where it's dragging, and go from there.

Usually you don't have to set the die quite all the way down to hit the shell holder.
If the brass is from the same rifle, you often don't even have to size the whole case, just 1/4" or so down onto the neck.

[M-Tecs]

Before you modify anything try sizing a case without the expander ball. Sometimes pulling the expander ball back through the neck will pull the shoulder out. If needed nothing wrong with removing a couple of thou from the die but if you have to do this the die is out of spec and replaceable under warranty..

[Jim P.]

I have brass I bought from different gun shows and it is different manufactures but it all does the same thing. The cases seem like they were fired from a gun which was way looser than mine. A factory round chambers fine even with tape on the head of the case. When I cover these cases with black marker and chamber them, they are only making hard contact on the shoulder. I tried sizing without the expander in the die and still the same result. Could this just be a problem with using lyman dies and a Lee shell holder. I suppose I could just grind the top of the shell holder off a few thousandths also.

[Bazoo]

You're not accounting for the press spring. When you set your dies, the press has no stretch in it. When you size a case, it stretches. Size one and when the ram is all the way up, check to see if the shell holder is touching, I bet it isnt. The solution is screw the die in more until, when the press is stretched, you get the clearance you want.

[Jim P.]

You're not accounting for the press spring. When you set your dies, the press has no stretch in it. When you size a case, it stretches. Size one and when the ram is all the way up, check to see if the shell holder is touching, I bet it isnt. The solution is screw the die in more until, when the press is stretched, you get the clearance you want.

I screwed the die down until it touches the shell holder and then gave it another 1/4 turn. I can just barely get the press to cam over even without a case in the shell holder. When I size a case, its still extremely hard to close the bolt in my savage axis. The only way I see to get the shoulder to bump back a little farther is to grind a few thousandths off of either the die or the shell holder.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Jim,

Do you have a buddy with a different sizing die?
If not, I'd probably try modifying the shell holder.
A little cheaper than a sizing die.

AntiqueSledMan.

[Bazoo]

Stupid question, Is it a full length sizing die? They come in full length and in neck size only. Full length will size the whole case except the last 5/16" or so. Neck size will only size the neck but not the shoulder or farther down.

If it's a full length die, it will normally be marked FL. All my Lyman dies are marked such.

[Bazoo]

I screwed the die down until it touches the shell holder and then gave it another 1/4 turn. I can just barely get the press to cam over even without a case in the shell holder. When I size a case, its still extremely hard to close the bolt in my savage axis. The only way I see to get the shoulder to bump back a little farther is to grind a few thousandths off of either the die or the shell holder.

Does the shell holder still touch when yor size a case?

[Jim P.]

The die is a full length sizing die. The problem is not the diameter but rather the length from the head to the shoulder that is too long. The shell holder still hits the die when sizing a case.

[Bazoo]

Well, it does sound like it needs shaving of the die bottom or shell holder. I'd shave the die and not the shell holder. The same shell holder works with many calibers, and later on you might want it stock. Give the inside edge a very slight radius.

[recumbent]

Have you measured case length? They may need trimming.

[RustyReel]

Have you measured case length? They may need trimming.

Yes, what he says. Also after sizing the brass turn it 90 degrees and size it again.

[uscra112]

Hello Jim,

Do you have a buddy with a different sizing die?

AntiqueSledMan.

Yah, very first thing to do is to try another die from different mfgr. It is entirely possible that one die could be wrong, but next to impossible that two dies would both be wrong the same way.

If you shave the shellholder, grind a flat or a notch on it so it will be easy to identify. That shellholder number does the entire .30-06 / .308 family. It mustn't be used together with anything but that one .30-06 die.

[Jim P.]

I checked the overall length and it is ok. I am going to a gun show today. I will see if I can find another die. If I have to I will grind the end off on this die.

[Wayne Smith]

Jim, post your location. More than likely there is a member within reach.

[elk hunter]

The shell holder is the cheaper and easier to fix or replace part. Rather than grind off the die I'd chuck the shell holder in the lathe and face it off a tiny amount and try it. If that solves problem mark the shell holder and put it in the box with the dies and a note explaining what was done and why. If it doesn't solve the problem throw it away and buy a new one.

[swheeler]

Jim try screwing the die in another 1/4 turn, that should give you a cam over on the press handle and may be all that is needed to bump the shoulder back another thou. It sounds like you may have a nice min headspace chamber, if it is concentric usually helps with accuracy. Best of luck

[toallmy]

Test it with a feeler gage slide a few thousands under the case in the shell holder than resize .

[Bazoo]

Test it with a feeler gage slide a few thousands under the case in the shell holder than resize .
That's a good idea. I've found lee shell holders are a bit sloppy compared to others, you could probably shim the shell holder in the ram as well. Those together would get you .010 I'll bet.

[ulav8r]

Read post #2 again. If the gun's headspace is below minimum making corrections to the gun will allow use of any factory ammo and reduce problems with handloads. Proper loading procedures with unaltered dies and shellholders can still produce ammo that is a snug fit in the chamber while allowing for reliable functioning.

[Geezer in NH]

Get a shell holder made by the same company as the dies. I myself do not trust Lee holders.

If you decide to grind a little grind the shell holder they are cheaper than the die.

[Jim P.]

Read post #2 again. If the gun's headspace is below minimum making corrections to the gun will allow use of any factory ammo and reduce problems with handloads. Proper loading procedures with unaltered dies and shellholders can still produce ammo that is a snug fit in the chamber while allowing for reliable functioning.

My feeler gauges are at work so I ended up making a shim from thin card stock. It measures about .006 thick. I placed this between the shell holder and the cases and then resized and now all cases will chamber without much effort. I bought this gun at a gun show and I also bought a handfull of loaded ammo at the gun show also. It chambers just fine in the gun. I also bought a few different lots of brass at gun shows and it all chambers hard in this gun after sizing with my dies. It chambers fine if I size with my shim on the shell plate. If the guns head space is tight is there a way to adjust this without running a chamber reamer in the gun? I think I would just rather grind a few thousandths off the bottom of my die than alter the gun. I will probably always use reloaded ammo anyway.

[Bwana John]

Get a shell holder made by the same company as the dies. I myself do not trust Lee holders.



Yep, I have found it worth it to always use the same brand of shell holder and dies together.

[Jim P.]

Yep, I have found it worth it to always use the same brand of shell holder and dies together.

Ive been trying to find a shell holder for 30-06 for about 3 weeks now. I could not find one anywhere. I finally found this one on ebay and I had to pay 10.99 for it. Every place on line and at fin feather and fur were always sold out.

[Jedman]

Jim, It sounds like your original diagnosis was right. Now that you have a extra shell holder for your 30-06 if it doesn’t make a difference and I don’t think it will just grind a little at a time off the top of one of them a belt sander will work. If you cut the bottom of your die a good quality carbide tool bit in the lathe will cut most dies as I have cut many down making wildcats . Shouldn’t take much to get it right.

Jedman

[toallmy]

It wouldn’t hurt to do a pound cast of the chamber

[Gee_Wizz01]

I your rifle chambers factory ammo, I would not modify my rifle. If you do, you might have excessive headspace with factory ammo. I would not modify a rifle to fix a problem caused by out of spec reloading dies or shellholders. Although you don't think you will ever use factory ammo, you never know when an emergency will arise and you need factory ammo. More importantly if you pass the rifle on to your kids you could be handing them a time bomb if it has excessive headspace and they use factory ammo. However, it sounds like you have narrowed your problem to out of spec die or shell holder. Hopefully your new shell holder will solve your problem, if not I would contact Lyman before I modified the die. They should replace the die for no charge since it is defective.

[Bazoo]

It didn't dawn on me until now. A used savage axis?

Someone has removed the barrel and set the headspace tight.

[uscra112]

Once again: Factory Ammo Chambers. The rifle is fine. The die or the Lee shellholder is the problem.

[uscra112]

t.
Ive been trying to find a shell holder for 30-06 for about 3 weeks now. I could not find one anywhere. I finally found this one on ebay and I had to pay 10.99 for it. Every place on line and at fin feather and fur were always sold out.

O.T. but only a little: Ammo is super-tight. Primers are a memory. Ditto brass and factory bullets. I never would have predicted that reloading tools would go ballistic. Basic Lee .223 and .308 die sets over $100? Shellholders sold out? I bless my lucky stars the I'm such a pack rat! And that I'm a caster.

[remy3424]

A couple posts mentioned removing the expander, could be causing case stretch. If you have imperial dry neck lube, try that (in the case necks), or mica, and see if that changes anything. If you don't already have these products, they might be hard to find now. If you use a "wet" neck lube, you will want to tumble them to remove that lube. If that doesn't change anything, I would give the die another eighth or quarter turn down and see what that does. If that does solve it, then I would modify the top of the shell holder for that firearm. Good luck.

[Jim P.]

I your rifle chambers factory ammo, I would not modify my rifle. If you do, you might have excessive headspace with factory ammo. I would not modify a rifle to fix a problem caused by out of spec reloading dies or shellholders. Although you don't think you will ever use factory ammo, you never know when an emergency will arise and you need factory ammo. More importantly if you pass the rifle on to your kids you could be handing them a time bomb if it has excessive headspace and they use factory ammo. However, it sounds like you have narrowed your problem to out of spec die or shell holder. Hopefully your new shell holder will solve your problem, if not I would contact Lyman before I modified the die. They should replace the die for no charge since it is defective.

I only have this 1 lee shell holder. I looked for it for 3 weeks. 30-06 shell holders are all but extinct right now.

[Jim P.]

t.

O.T. but only a little: Ammo is super-tight. Primers are a memory. Ditto brass and factory bullets. I never would have predicted that reloading tools would go ballistic. Basic Lee .223 and .308 die sets over $100? Shellholders sold out? I bless my lucky stars the I'm such a pack rat! And that I'm a caster.

I see you are also from ohio. I live in Salem, Ohio which is northeastern ohio. I have been going to my local fin feather and fur store every weekend for probably 2 months. I have never found a 30-06 shell holder. At first powder was available and I bought an extra pound of tite group. Now powder is completely gone and has been for about a month. I wish I would have bought some rifle powder back then but I didnt have the rifle at that time. They do almost always have primers. You can only buy 100 of rifle and 100 pistol. I usually take my wife so we get 400. They have been about 6.99 per hundred but last week they went up to 9.99. I havnt bought any since. Actually the primers are costing me more than that because every time we go I have to take my wife out to eat. Lol

[rugerman1]

I see you are also from ohio. I live in Salem, Ohio which is northeastern ohio. I have been going to my local fin feather and fur store every weekend for probably 2 months. I have never found a 30-06 shell holder. At first powder was available and I bought an extra pound of tite group. Now powder is completely gone and has been for about a month. I wish I would have bought some rifle powder back then but I didnt have the rifle at that time. They do almost always have primers. You can only buy 100 of rifle and 100 pistol. I usually take my wife so we get 400. They have been about 6.99 per hundred but last week they went up to 9.99. I havnt bought any since. Actually the primers are costing me more than that because every time we go I have to take my wife out to eat. Lol
Fin, feather and fur is less than an hour from me and used to have a great powder selection. Their sale prices were unbeatable by even mail-order standards. I saw their primers last time I stopped in for $6.99/100 myself,didn’t know they raised them. I was bummed when they took out Carrabba's Italian Grill in that plaza.

[Texas by God]

Are you trying just the sized brass and finding it difficult to chamber or are you talking about loaded rounds? If the seating die is set too close to the shell holder it is possible to swell the shoulder a bit with some dies and shell holder combos.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[Larry Gibson]

I'd screw the FL die in just enough so the ram does not cam over at but the shell holder bumps solidly against the bottom of the FL die.

I've run into this problem several times with various rifle/die combinations. Many times simply trying another shell holder corrects the situation. Or put a sheet of 80 - 120 grit sand paper on a hard flat surface and then placing the shell holder top down on it and rotate it a few times will remove just enough so the case can go into the die .001 - .002 farther.

BTW; tight headspace is good.

[gumbo333]

I know there are a ton of Lee haters here but I have used Lee shell holders for many, many, many years. I have 2 full sets in their green boxes. Use them for nearly everything. But a single shell holder from any company could get by that doesn't meet specks.

[Jim P.]

Are you trying just the sized brass and finding it difficult to chamber or are you talking about loaded rounds? If the seating die is set too close to the shell holder it is possible to swell the shoulder a bit with some dies and shell holder combos.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

Yes just the sized case is tight before a bullet is loaded.

[Bazoo]

Shell holders are supposed to be .125 from top to the bottom of the recess.

[Jim P.]

Shell holders are supposed to be .125 from top to the bottom of the recess.

This one measures .125

[uscra112]

In that case the die is at fault, no question. You might use the wet-or-dry paper on a flat surface trick to work a few thou off the end of it. Tedious, but if you lack a lathe it's a solution. Use it wet with soapy water.

[Jim P.]

In that case the die is at fault, no question. You might use the wet-or-dry paper on a flat surface trick to work a few thou off the end of it. Tedious, but if you lack a lathe it's a solution.

Im a machinist. We have 10 lathes at work and I have 2 out in my home shop but I would probably use my tool and cutter to grind it off. not that a lathe would not work though.

[JM7.7x58]

Im a machinist. We have 10 lathes at work and I have 2 out in my home shop but I would probably use my tool and cutter to grind it off. not that a lathe would not work though.

How ever you do it you need to loose a few thousandths from some where. You proved that with your shim under the case head. If your bolt is now closing but with difficulty, I’d personally stone the top of my case holder until when closing your bolt it just needed the slightest nudge.

[uscra112]

Im a machinist. We have 10 lathes at work and I have 2 out in my home shop but I would probably use my tool and cutter to grind it off. not that a lathe would not work though.

You're golden, then. However you do it, the metal has to come off the die. Messing with making a custom shellholder is easy, but requires that you keep very close track of it forever after.

[DonHowe]

I will affirm at least 2 prior comments, with the ram fully raised screw the die down hard on the shellholder then lower the ram and give the die another 1/4 turn. This will give the shortest case you can get without modifying anything. Lf a case so sized will not chamber THEN try other things, probably first the sharpie marked case. If the above method does not yield a case that will chamber, if it were me and I could not easily try another die I would try reducing the height of the shellholder. You can do the Lee shellholder with a file ( at least it worked for me). It should not need a lot removed so I would cut and try, each time screwing the die down hard plus that 1/4 turn. When you get to where the bolt closes on a sized case as it does on a factory round make an identifying mark on the shellholder then leave it in the box with that set of dies.
If you don't want to modify anything and want the die replaced by Lyman I'm betting they will want to know if you tried it with their shellholder. I know, it should not matter, just saying...

[gumbo333]

After re-reading this, if a shim in the shell holder works, maybe a small round piece of duck tape will do the job, or a thin piece of tin super glued in. No need to alter a die. Possibly the shell holder was cut a tad to deep. I'm simple.

[high standard 40]

I agree on thinning the shell holder. It's cheaper to replace than a die if things go wrong

[swheeler]

I will affirm at least 2 prior comments, with the ram fully raised screw the die down hard on the shellholder then lower the ram and give the die another 1/4 turn. This will give the shortest case you can get without modifying anything. Lf a case so sized will not chamber THEN try other things, probably first the sharpie marked case. If the above method does not yield a case that will chamber, if it were me and I could not easily try another die I would try reducing the height of the shellholder. You can do the Lee shellholder with a file ( at least it worked for me). It should not need a lot removed so I would cut and try, each time screwing the die down hard plus that 1/4 turn. When you get to where the bolt closes on a sized case as it does on a factory round make an identifying mark on the shellholder then leave it in the box with that set of dies.
If you don't want to modify anything and want the die replaced by Lyman I'm betting they will want to know if you tried it with their shellholder. I know, it should not matter, just saying...

The die turned in another 1/4 turn is what the directions say with the dies, that is why I mentioned it, should be the first thing tried, it get rid of the slack/ slop in the press linkage.

[uscra112]

A thinned shellholder used with any other die set (.243, 7mm-08, .308, .358, .25-06, .270, etc.) will produce cases that have the shoulder pushed too far back, increasing headspace to perhaps dangerous levels. For the luvva Mike, leave that currently irreplaceable shellholder alone!

Shellholder is not cut too deep. He's measured it. It's the regulation .125". The shim idea is a good one, though.

He's already cranked the die down to compensate for press "spring".

[Jim P.]

I haven't done it yet but I'm going to just machine off the end of the die a few thousandths at a time and then resize a case and try it in the gun. I'll stop when the bolt will just close without forcing it.

[high standard 40]

A thinned shellholder used with any other die set (.243, 7mm-08, .308, .358, .25-06, .270, etc.) will produce cases that have the shoulder pushed too far back, increasing headspace to perhaps dangerous levels. For the luvva Mike, leave that currently irreplaceable shellholder alone!

Shellholder is not cut too deep. He's measured it. It's the regulation .125". The shim idea is a good one, though.

He's already cranked the die down to compensate for press "spring".

The same holds true for the die. If you use the die after you trim it to load for a different 30-06 you will set the shoulder back needlessly. I don't see your logic. I have dedicated shell holders for every die set I have. Shell holders are cheap, compared to dies

[M-Tecs]

Life tends to get easier if you deal with real numbers. Two ways got get real numbers are the RCBS Precision Mic https://www.rcbs.com/case-processing/measuring/precision-mic/564.html or a headspace gauge and the Hornady Headspace Comparator https://www.hornady.com/headspace-bushings#!/ The RCBS reads in actual headspace measurements. The Hornady is just a comparator until it's used with a actual headspace gauge or known standard.

I have one or the other for the 30 plus bottleneck cases I reload for. I keep the headspace data for all the bottlenecks chambered rifles I own.

Good info here https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/experience-w-hornady-headspace-comparator.3942223/#:~:text=The%20Hornady%20tool%20is%20a%20very%20go od%20comparator.,able%20to%20measure%20your%20case s%20in%20real%20dimensions Post number 15 is very informative.

[M-Tecs]

If the guns head space is tight is there a way to adjust this without running a chamber reamer in the gun? .

The Savage Axis uses the standard barrel nut. You need a spanner wrench to loosen it and than you can easily adjust headspace just by turning the barrel in or out.

[1hole]

.... Could this just be a problem with using lyman dies and a Lee shell holder. I suppose I could just grind the top of the shell holder off a few thousandths also.

No, don't do that.

All dies AND shell holders are made to produce ammo to the same dimensional specifications (SAAMI, i.e. the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Maker's Institute) and they all do that quite well; any die/shell holder that is "in tolerance" is as precise as it's going to be. Thus, loud fan's claims of greater "precision" of their favorite brands aside, there is as much plus/minus tolerance variation between dies and shell holders from the same maker as there is between makers.

Regardless of press brand and model, they all stretch (spring) different amounts under the stresses of FL sizing and that can easily explain the headspace problem you're experiencing.

We don't know how you're adjusting your sizer to match your own press but if you're following the simplistic directions of "shell holder contact plus another quarter turn", or some small variation of that, you likely need to refine your die adjustment.

Try this: Set your size die as you normally do and raise it to fully push a case into the die. Then look under the die to see if it still has firm contact with the shell holder while the press is under stress. If there is a sliver of light between die and shell holder just withdraw the case, turn the die down another eighth of a turn and try again; carefully repeat as necessary until the gap disappears.

(Oh yeah, always give your cases a second or two of full pressure "up" in the die before starting to withdraw them.)

[M-Tecs]

Standard die adjustment instructions are geared to producing ammo that works in all firearms. It is far from optimal in most. To do that you need to maintain a .0015" to .002" shoulder verse chamber clearance in boltguns. In auto's I prefer .002" or 003"


http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2020/04/tech-tip-adjusting-fl-dies-for-optimal-shoulder-bump/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2016/11/how-to-set-up-full-length-sizing-dies-and-control-shoulder-bump/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/09/bedeviled-by-bump-when-full-length-dies-dont-work/

[jim147]

I might have missed it but have you tried resizing any brass you fired out of your rifle.?

[Jim P.]

No, don't do that.

All dies AND shell holders are made to produce ammo to the same dimensional specifications (SAAMI, i.e. the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Maker's Institute) and they all do that quite well; any die/shell holder that is "in tolerance" is as precise as it's going to be. Thus, loud fan's claims of greater "precision" of their favorite brands aside, there is as much plus/minus tolerance variation between dies and shell holders from the same maker as there is between makers.

Regardless of press brand and model, they all stretch (spring) different amounts under the stresses of FL sizing and that can easily explain the headspace problem you're experiencing.

We don't know how you're adjusting your sizer to match your own press but if you're following the simplistic directions of "shell holder contact plus another quarter turn", or some small variation of that, you likely need to refine your die adjustment.

Try this: Set your size die as you normally do and raise it to fully push a case into the die. Then look under the die to see if it still has firm contact with the shell holder while the press is under stress. If there is a sliver of light between die and shell holder just withdraw the case, turn the die down another eighth of a turn and try again; carefully repeat as necessary until the gap disappears.

(Oh yeah, always give your cases a second or two of full pressure "up" in the die before starting to withdraw them.)
there was no gap between the die and shell holder while sizing a case.

[Jim P.]

I might have missed it but have you tried resizing any brass you fired out of your rifle.?
yes I have and they will chamber fine but they will also chamber fine before I size them. I will say that the brass I was having problems with is military brass and it takes a lot of pressure to resize this brass. Much more than it does to resize the brass shot from my gun. the chambers on the military rifles must be a lot bigger or are just worn out.

[Mk42gunner]

Sounds to me like this lot of old military brass is the problem, since you can use once fired brass from your rifle with the full length die with no issues.

I hate to say it, but I would set that lot of brass aside and not modify anything. The US hasn't used .30-06 as a common issue military round in decades. The last I am sure of is the Navy still using M-1's and maybe BAR's in the early seventies. .30 cal Browning's? Probably the 1960's.

Maybe it is age hardened and would be helped by annealing the brass first.

Robert

[Jim P.]

Sounds to me like this lot of old military brass is the problem, since you can use once fired brass from your rifle with the full length die with no issues.

I hate to say it, but I would set that lot of brass aside and not modify anything. The US hasn't used .30-06 as a common issue military round in decades. The last I am sure of is the Navy still using M-1's and maybe BAR's in the early seventies. .30 cal Browning's? Probably the 1960's.

Maybe it is age hardened and would be helped by annealing the brass first.

Robert
I have 4 different lots from different gun shows but they all do the same thing. They are pretty old though. The one lot says 1943 on it.

[high standard 40]

For those who contend that trimming a shell holder is a bad idea, Redding makes a "Competition shell holder set" that has 5 different tolerance shell holders in .002" (.002" through .010") increments that are designed to set the case shoulder back by those increments as needed. I agree that there are SAAMI specifications and that there are also allowable departures from those exact specs. All chambers are not alike and dies can also differ. There are allowable tolerances. If you have a chamber that is on the minus side of spec, and a die that is on the plus side, and a shell holder that is also on the plus side, I can see where an issue can result. I have this very issue with a Ruger American rifle in 308 Win which has a very tight chamber. I have a couple 1000 once fired brass for this rifle that I got from an LEO firing range. If I size this brass with a Redding full length die, making sure to set my die so that I have to cam over the press handle, the case will not chamber in my rifle. Even a Small Base Die didn't solve the issue. I have to use a .002" thinner shell holder if I want this brass to chamber. A previous post suggested resetting the headspace on the Axis rifle. This would probable be the best overall solution. I have considered doing the same with my Ruger American.

[swheeler]

1943 was corrosive primed, throw that brass away.

[Jim P.]

1943 was corrosive primed, throw that brass away.

I have some that I wet tumbled and loaded up and it looks good so I see no reason not to fire it.

[Wild Bill 7]

Try a 45 acp shell holder if you have one. RCBS dies use a number 3 shell holder for both 45 and 30-06 brass.

[Jim P.]

Try a 45 acp shell holder if you have one. RCBS dies use a number 3 shell holder for both 45 and 30-06 brass.

I dont have one. the only other caliper I have ever reloaded is 9mm and I do that on a lee progressive press.

[ulav8r]

OK, went back to the op and re-read most replies. After my first reply we are told gun accepts factory ammo so headspace is acceptable. Shell holder is .125, so it is nominally correct as to overall height but a shim between shell holder and case does produce acceptable ammo so dies are good. This indicates that the shell holder is off a little and everything else combined is near minimum.

I do not know the specification for top face of the shell holder to the base of the recess but it seems this shell holder is past max for this combination of components. A metal shim with a .215 hole in the center and glued/soldered into the shell holder would be a permanent solution that would maintain the usability of the dies. Removing .006 from the bottom of the die would not harm their use with other shell holders as long as the user is careful to set the dies for proper headspacing when installing in any press.

[M-Tecs]

This really isn't that difficult. The OP stated he is a machinist and as such he should have the capability to actually measure what is going on. Is it a chamber issue? Is it a die issue? Is it a brass issue? A technique issue? A combination of all of the above? Something else?

All could be easily resolved with actuals measurements. Without that blacking a tight case with a magic marker and chambering it would at least indicate were it is tight.

[Jim P.]

This really isn't that difficult. The OP stated he is a machinist and as such he should have the capability to actually measure what is going on. Is it a chamber issue? Is it a die issue? Is it a brass issue? A technique issue? A combination of all of the above? Something else?

All could be easily resolved with actuals measurements. Without that blacking a tight case with a magic marker and chambering it would at least indicate were it is tight.
I already blackened a case and it was only hitting hard on the shoulder. I dont have the proper tools to measure the head space but I definitely can machine a few thousandths off the die and size another case to try in the gun.

[M-Tecs]

You have an optical comparator at work?

[Jim P.]

You have an optical comparator at work?

we do not

[Three44s]

I would set that military brass aside and work with the commercial stuff that functions fine. If you must use that military brass I would wait until I could get a second sizer die and modify the least desirable of either your current FL die or the second one (yet to acquired).

If you cut your current sizer down for the military brass you have caused it to excessively size your commercial cases. I doubt that mil brass is worthy of a cut or second and cut die What with the corrosive primers that were used (other than match brass).

Three44s

[M-Tecs]

Proper adjustment of the dies is based on the shoulder setback for each individual chamber. Setting the die to the shellholder is the manufactures recommendation to size the brass to a minimum spec. to function in all firearms. Nothing more. The sizing die does not need to contact the shell holder. Same of the claimed slack and or frame stretch. The force of the sizing does that and provides the load.

[jim147]

yes I have and they will chamber fine but they will also chamber fine before I size them. I will say that the brass I was having problems with is military brass and it takes a lot of pressure to resize this brass. Much more than it does to resize the brass shot from my gun. the chambers on the military rifles must be a lot bigger or are just worn out.

That answers it. Your die and shell holder are fine. That is old hard brass that was fired in full auto/big chambers. It needs to be checked closely for separation and then if no signs maybe aneal and see what happens.

If you modify anything your good brass will get overworked and in my opinion less accurate.

[notenoughguns]

That answers it. Your die and shell holder are fine. That is old hard brass that was fired in full auto/big chambers. It needs to be checked closely for separation

If you modify anything your good brass will get overworked and in my opinion less accurate.

Jim147 hit the nail on the head !!
You need a small base sizing die to use that old military brass , more than likely base at the web is oversized and and is were the hangup is . If the die and shell holder work on commercial fired brass then your dies are fine ! old full auto military brass is the problem !

[uscra112]

He's already proven that the sized cases aren't too big at the base.

[M-Tecs]

I already blackened a case and it was only hitting hard on the shoulder. I dont have the proper tools to measure the head space but I definitely can machine a few thousandths off the die and size another case to try in the gun.

Per the OP the issue is not the base it is headspace only. The question is why only on the GI brass? The GI brass could have more spring back for a variety of reasons. GI brass tends to be harder and depending on what it was fired in possibly a longer chamber.

[uscra112]

I'm willing to consider that the hard brass hypothesis might have merit. Anneal a couple and see what happens.

[1hole]

I definitely can machine a few thousandths off the die and size another case to try in the gun.

Maybe. Most (all?) sizers are case hardened. Even with a carbide tool that's hard to cut. I've had good luck on sizers with grinders tho, once you're thru the case the interior is quite soft.

[uscra112]

Maybe. Most (all?) sizers are case hardened. Even with a carbide tool that's hard to cut. I've had good luck on sizers with grinders tho, once you're thru the case the interior is quite soft.

He's got a tool-and-cutter grinder.

[Jim P.]

the problem could very well be the hard brass. i have never resized anything but 9mm before. This brass took about everything the press had to get it sized. I had to really lube them up. I got one stuck and it was a real pain to get out. I'd say it was taking 60 lbs of pull on the handle to get them sized. I did get 100 sized though with the shim between the shell holder and the case.

[uscra112]

It would be a new one on me, but worth checking it out.

[Jim P.]

I also had same problem with some norma brass. I dont think its military brass or atleast it didnt have crimped primers.

[uscra112]

Another datum. Norma brass is nothing if not consistently on spec.

[Jim P.]

I cut one of the old military cases in half lengthwise and annealed one half. it is much easier to bend than the half that's not annealed. So if I load these again I'll try annealing first.

[dakota]

a RCBS technician told me to turn the dies 1/4 turn past touched the shell holder in such a circumstance. It worked - evidently there is some play that this took out.

[Three44s]

I cut one of the old military cases in half lengthwise and annealed one half. it is much easier to bend than the half that's not annealed. So if I load these again I'll try annealing first.

How the does interior of the lengthwise cut mil case look with regard to corrosion?

Three44s

[Jim P.]

How the does interior of the lengthwise cut mil case look with regard to corrosion?

Three44s

it looks pretty good to me

[Jim P.]

a RCBS technician told me to turn the dies 1/4 turn past touched the shell holder in such a circumstance. It worked - evidently there is some play that this took out.
already did that

[Three44s]

it looks pretty good to me

That’s good to know. I have a lot of mil ‘06 sitting on the sidelines and have not sent it to the smelter. I also have so much commercial brass in the same there is really no need to chance it.

The price of bore scopes has plummeted to the point where anyone can afford them and having a peek inside cases for incipient case head separation and corrosion or whatever is here and now.

I work on my Savage rifle’s quite a bit and a previous owner could have shortened your head space just a tad. I know you tried a loaded factory round with a layer of cellophane tape but I am still dubious about your headspace in that rifle. I do the tape bit but the definitive test would be a set of gauges. They cost money and who knows how long to get them in this frenzied Times?

I still think I would just run your commercial brass, leave shell holder and die uncut and try annealing a few mil cases and do your shim trick if I were in your shoes.

Three44s

[Jim P.]

That’s good to know. I have a lot of mil ‘06 sitting on the sidelines and have not sent it to the smelter. I also have so much commercial brass in the same there is really no need to chance it.

The price of bore scopes has plummeted to the point where anyone can afford them and having a peek inside cases for incipient case head separation and corrosion or whatever is here and now.

I work on my Savage rifle’s quite a bit and a previous owner could have shortened your head space just a tad. I know you tried a loaded factory round with a layer of cellophane tape but I am still dubious about your headspace in that rifle. I do the tape bit but the definitive test would be a set of gauges. They cost money and who knows how long to get them in this frenzied Times?

I still think I would just run your commercial brass, leave shell holder and die uncut and try annealing a few mil cases and do your shim trick if I were in your shoes.

Three44s
the problem is I only have about 15 commercial cases. I was hoping to get about 100 loaded up. one of these days my son and I are going to go out and let off a couple hundred rounds. He has an ar15.

[Bazoo]

Since you're new to loading I'm going to tell you something for safety, that you may know already via your research. When you anneal cases, make sure you only anneal the neck area. The top 1/3 or so. The head and lower 1/3 must remain hard to contain the pressure.

Use a socket and a drill adapter to spin the case, get the neck dull red and tip the drill to drop the case in a bucket of water.

[Jim P.]

Since you're new to loading I'm going to tell you something for safety, that you may know already via your research. When you anneal cases, make sure you only anneal the neck area. The top 1/3 or so. The head and lower 1/3 must remain hard to contain the pressure.

Use a socket and a drill adapter to spin the case, get the neck dull red and tip the drill to drop the case in a bucket of water.
thanks for the info. I guess it would not do much good to anneal then since where it is taking most of the pressure to resize is down towards the head.

[Bazoo]

I think you're mistaken about where the pressure is. At the top of the ram stroke, you have pressure from everywhere on the case. The base area has some, but much less than the shoulder. The shoulder has the most resistance. The neck has the least. Annealing will help a lot.

It just feels like the base is where it's at because it's the last area to add it's resistance to the stroke.

[toallmy]

If you have a few military cases that chambered after you full length resize them with the shim , you should be able to load and shoot them fire forming them to your chamber . Then you can use a fire formed case to measure your chamber length , possibly slide a case or something over the neck touching the shoulder to get a measurement to compare to a case that won't chamber .
I would definitely soften the neck and shoulder on all the used brass , with a little hand torch - it's probably hardened with age causing spring back .
Take one case that won't size down enough to chamber drop it in a socket that fits the case base - chuck it in a drill - sit the little torch on the bench so it's stable so you can watch what you are doing safety - while spinning the case with the drill as slowly as possible hold the case neck into the fire- pay close attention to the neck it will become shiny at first then you will see a slight blue line under the shiny section just hold the case in the fire until the faint blue line travels a 1/4-1/2 inch below the shoulder - immediately remove at that point . It should only take a few seconds 8-10 count while you are doing it . Let it cool and then try to full length resize it . That will take the spring back out of setting the neck back a few thousands .

[M-Tecs]

If you have a few military cases that chambered after you full length resize them with the shim , you should be able to load and shoot them fire forming them to your chamber . Then you can use a fire formed case to measure your chamber length , possibly slide a case or something over the neck touching the shoulder to get a measurement to compare to a case that won't chamber .
I would definitely soften the neck and shoulder on all the used brass , with a little hand torch - it's probably hardened with age causing spring back .
Take one case that won't size down enough to chamber drop it in a socket that fits the case base - chuck it in a drill - sit the little torch on the bench so it's stable so you can watch what you are doing safety - while spinning the case with the drill as slowly as possible hold the case neck into the fire- pay close attention to the neck it will become shiny at first then you will see a slight blue line under the shiny section just hold the case in the fire until the faint blue line travels a 1/4-1/2 inch below the shoulder - immediately remove at that point . It should only take a few seconds 8-10 count while you are doing it . Let it cool and then try to full length resize it . That will take the spring back out of setting the neck back a few thousands .

Yup

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?s=headspace+comparator&submit=Search

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2019/06/cheap-tricks-how-to-measure-shoulder-bump-using-45-acp-case/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/05/tech-tip-measuring-shoulder-bump-with-bump-collar/ this one would be a piece of cake for a machinist to make and more repeatable than a 45 case.

[Jim P.]

I made a gauge to slip over the rounds that contacts the shoulder so I can compare the lengths of the rounds. My die sizes these military cases about .004 longer than a factory round. I shot 4 of loaded military rounds and they do not get longer when I shoot them but they do get longer when I resize them. They are .004 longer after sizing than before. They will chamber but you have to really muscle the bolt.

https://i.ibb.co/7nXgvWd/20210301-182708.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/BfzHWcx/20210301-184303.jpg

[Jim P.]

I tried to anneal the neck on one case but it still comes out the same length

[Bazoo]

The case shoulder length grows when sized because you're narrowing the body but not setting the shoulder back cause of a too long die. I'd adjust the die length so it sized the same as a factory round.

How much difference is there between the shoulder on a factory round and a fired case from your gun?

If you load some and happens you get a tight one, it's still safe to shoot. Only if it's tight from the shoulder, and not excessive case length.

[Jim P.]

a fired round and factory are the same length within 1/2 thousandth

[uscra112]

I made a gauge to slip over the rounds that contacts the shoulder so I can compare the lengths of the rounds. My die sizes these military cases about .004 longer than a factory round. I shot 4 of loaded military rounds and they do not get longer when I shoot them but they do get longer when I resize them. They are .004 longer after sizing than before. They will chamber but you have to really muscle the bolt.

https://i.ibb.co/7nXgvWd/20210301-182708.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/BfzHWcx/20210301-184303.jpg

THAT suggests the the expander ball is pulling the shoulder out on the return stroke of the ram. Obvious experiment is to take the decapping stem out entirely and sizing a case.

Something that over my experience has never happened, but that proves nothing.*

*Maybe because being a lead bullet nut I expand the necks with an M-die in a separate operation.

[Jim P.]

THAT suggests the the expander ball is pulling the shoulder out on the return stroke of the ram. Obvious experiment is to take the decapping stem out entirely and sizing a case.

Something that over my experience has never happened, but that proves nothing.*

*Maybe because being a lead bullet nut I expand the necks with an M-die in a separate operation.

I sized the case without the expander. I think this die just needs a few thousandths ground off atleast in this gun.

[M-Tecs]

What are you using for case lube and your are lubing the neck?

[Jim P.]

What are you using for case lube and your are lubing the neck?

Using hornady one shot spray lube and lots of it. Yes the neck also

[Bazoo]

I use one shot myself. I also use imperial sizing wax.

[M-Tecs]

Using hornady one shot spray lube and lots of it. Yes the neck also

Are you letting it dry for at least 15 minutes and inside the neck?

[Jim P.]

Are you letting it dry for at least 15 minutes and inside the neck?
yes and yes

[uscra112]

I sized the case without the expander. I think this die just needs a few thousandths ground off atleast in this gun.

So much for that theory, then.

[M-Tecs]

Since most possible causes have been eliminate it's going to come down to two things or a combination of both. Your rifle headspace is on the tight side. Your dies shoulder it 4 or 5 thou long. At this point grinding the die should resolve your issues.

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/case-stretch-after-fl-resize.4026908/

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/case-stretch-in-full-length-sizing-die.3755376/

https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/redding-full-length-sizing-die-bumps-shoulder-in-wrong-direction.3913245/

Through the years I have seen a surprising number of dies that pushed the shoulder too much. This is the first that didn't move it enough.

[uscra112]

Yup!

Today I went looking to see if I had a spare sizer I could send him, but no luck. Got tons of other -06 stuff, but only one set of dies. Not like me. Not like me at all.

[jim147]

I should have go no go gauges around here. I'll look tomorrow. If I can find them I could mail them up if you want to mail them back when done. That would end the tight chamber debate.

[Jim P.]

I should have go no go gauges around here. I'll look tomorrow. If I can find them I could mail them up if you want to mail them back when done. That would end the tight chamber debate.
that would be great. I would be more than happy to mail them back to you.

[Alferd Packer]

I just started reloading 30-06 and I have a Rcbs JR3 press and I bought a set of Lyman All-American full length dies. I have a Lee shell holder. When I set my die, I raise the ram all the way up and screw the die down until it contacts the shell holder hard. After I size the cases and put them in my savage axis the bolt will barely close. It seems I need to bump the shoulder back a few more thousandths. Could I just grind a few thousandths off the end of the die to allow for setting it a little closer to the shell plate. I am a machinist so I would be using a precision grinding machine.




o[ooooooooooooooo
probably got shells fired in a
machine gun.

[Three44s]

o[ooooooooooooooo
probably got shells fired in a
machine gun.

I have been figuring that as well. Last night I was FL sizing some TW 5.56 ...... every once in a while I encountered a “hum dinger”! The added pressure was noticeable and that’s with a Redding Boss. Same lube, same technique, plenty of press capability ....... but lots more effort required on certain cases.

Three44s

[Alferd Packer]

Sounds to me like this lot of old military brass is the problem, since you can use once fired brass from your rifle with the full length die with no issues.

I hate to say it, but I would set that lot of brass aside and not modify anything. The US hasn't used .30-06 as a common issue military round in decades. The last I am sure of is the Navy still using M-1's and maybe BAR's in the early seventies. .30 cal Browning's? Probably the 1960's.

Maybe it is age hardened and would be helped by annealing the brass first.

Robert

x'xxxxxx. xxxxxxxxxxx

Some Army Reserve and Guard units are still using M1 garands and 1906 machine guns as drill weapons.
When they report for active duty, they are issued and train with m16s.
When they shoot up that old 30-06 ammo the Machine Gun ammo brass is picked up and sold usually to scrap metal places for sgts beer money.
Some makes it to gun shows.
Same goes for .308 brass as well.
Probably need small base dies to size it at least for first reload.
Not worth it to buy SB dies unless you have a few thousand shells.

[flounderman]

I would face the shell holder off. Unless you lock the lock rings down, it doesn't matter if the shell holder has a few thousands removed. Just adjust the die for it when you screw it in.

[toallmy]

If you like , I have a RCBS small base sizing die you can use for the cost of return shipping

[uscra112]

Some of you latecomers need to read the thread. :coffee:

[Three44s]

Some of you latecomers need to read the thread. :coffee:

toallmy might be onto something. I know that Jim P. found that the bright marks are on the case shoulders. But I can not say that a small base die will not be a bit more aggressive at increasing head room in addition to reducing case diameter just ahead of the web.

For the price of 2way shipping, why not?

Best regards

Three44s

[Jim P.]

I ground .002 off the end of the die. we will see how it sizes when I get home tonight. I just clamped it in a precision v block and placed the v block on its side on the surface grinder

[Jim P.]

here is picture of the die after I ground it off

https://i.ibb.co/S6rgts3/20210303-121933.jpg

[shooterg]

Many of us who shot M1's and later 14's got our hands on lots of TW/LC 06 and 7.62 brass that was fired in full autos. Always used the SB sizer before 1st reload . They might've run in issue barrels but most HP shooters had rebarrelled with tighter chambers.
Whatever works !

[toallmy]

Let us know how it works out .

[Jim P.]

Many of us who shot M1's and later 14's got our hands on lots of TW/LC 06 and 7.62 brass that was fired in full autos. Always used the SB sizer before 1st reload . They might've run in issue barrels but most HP shooters had rebarrelled with tighter chambers.
Whatever works !
I sized them the first time with a shim under the head of the shell to where they were actually a few thousandths short. I then shot them but when I resized them the second time without the shim they were again tight in the chamber

[toallmy]

Swollen base could cause the length to grow when resizing if your die is on the long side + spring back . How are they sizing now with the short die ?

[Jim P.]

They are sizing great now. Bolt just closes now without having to man handle it.

[uscra112]

Ain't it wonderful to have the right tools for the job!!!

[toallmy]

Right on

[Bazoo]

Glad you got it resolved.

[jim147]

I think you have it working now but let me know if you still want to try the go gauge. I'll have to dig in the shop. I'm trying to start cleaning up after a five maybe six year break due to health and man it is a mess.

[Jim P.]

I think you have it working now but let me know if you still want to try the go gauge. I'll have to dig in the shop. I'm trying to start cleaning up after a five maybe six year break due to health and man it is a mess.
I appreciate the offer but it's working fine now. It the gun does have a tight head space, it doesnt bother me. If it ever wears a little it will be right on spec. lol

[Jim P.]

Here is a little bit of information about 30-06 that I did not know. maybe this is why the military cases are hard to size.

There are many good sources for military ’06 brass on the market, but be careful when using them; the military stuff has a thicker case wall, and therefore a smaller combustion chamber, and it will reach higher pressure with less powder when compared to the commercial cases.

[Jim P.]

I did notice when I was loading , I had one norma case. It was not as full as the military cases with the same amount of powder. I actually dumped it out reweighed since I thought I made a mistake but did not.

[uscra112]

SOME military -06 is heavier, some is not. I did an extensive evaluation of 5.56 brass about 6 years ago, and followed up with a couple hundred each of 308, and .30-06 . The stuff to really watch out for, from my weighing and measuring marathon, is the foreign makes. Your warning is well taken - don't assume anything if it's military. Weigh a few samples, and do the water test.

[Fernando]

Sorry late to the party - I see it was for a savage - You could have just loosened the bbl nut and turned your barrel out .000"s
Probably set tight from the factory.
I have all my Savage's set tight but they are dedicated dog guns.

[Jim P.]

Sorry late to the party - I see it was for a savage - You could have just loosened the bbl nut and turned your barrel out .000"s
Probably set tight from the factory.
I have all my Savage's set tight but they are dedicated dog guns.
I dont have a wrench for the barrel nut. It also would chamber factory ammo fine

[Bazoo]

If it were me, I'd grind the bottom of the die so it replicated the shoulder length of factory ammo. That way it would be sure functioning through my gun. Course you can always set the die to size less to extend brass life, but having a bit of space for dirt may be beneficial some day.

[uscra112]

Which is what he's done.

[Bazoo]

I don't think he mentioned what difference between a fired case and factory there was. Or least I missed it if it was mentioned.

[Jim P.]

My die is still sizing the cases about .003 longer than the factory rounds I have but they fit in my gun so Im happy with that.