Ammunition Shortage

[Handloader109]

You guys think that there there isn't a lot of folks buying ammo? I'm posting an email from Fenix Ammunition up in MI, they were the ones who were asking is you were a Biden voter and not letting you buy ammo if you answered yes. Got an email saying they were updating their stock yesterday and I went out there 20 minutes after 10 am and stock was zero....
Here's why. And his numbers add up.

[https://ecp]TrainingCompetitionDefensiveFrangible

A Quick Follow-Up on Yesterday’s Inventory Listing

Considering the current demand and the number of customers who were not able to complete their purchase yesterday, we wanted to provide some data as to the size of the problem we are trying to solve as well as answer some basic questions:

Q: Did you actually list anything yesterday? Or, ever? I never seem to be able to get any ammo.

A: On February 25th we listed 300,000 total rounds listed at 10AM EST, just as we said we would. 100,000 9mm 115gr were sold in under 60 seconds; 100,000 9mm 147gr were sold in under 110 seconds; 100,000 9mm 124gr were sold in 2 minutes and 45 seconds.

Our last inventory update on February 11th took approximately five minutes to sell the same quantity of ammunition. So far in 2020 we have posted four separate inventory updates totaling 1.2 million rounds which have lasted a combined total of 20 minutes. We do not expect things to change in the near future.

Q: There must be a small number of wholesalers buying up all the ammo to resell at higher prices. Can you put a limit on quantity?

A: We could, but this is not what is happening. Yesterday we processed 568 orders, which means the average order was approximately 500-750 rounds. Even if we limited orders to 1,000 rounds it would not have changed the outcome in any significant manner. Our in-stock notifications had more than 50,000 signups in February alone and there is simply not enough to go around.

Q: I think there are people using bots or automated accounts to check out quicker than other people. Can you put a stop to this?

A: We know some people are quicker than others, but we have no evidence that they are using bots or automated tools. Even if they are, we are not sure how to solve that issue aside from adding more layers of onerous check boxes or captcha-type security to our checkout process. Unfortunately, our ecommerce platform does not offer this type of security and we are not going to move our website to a different platform just to solve this issue.

Q: How can I speed up the checkout process?

A: There are two things you can do – first, create an account on our site. When you are logged in, your shipping information will be pre-loaded in the checkout process. Second, use Google or Apple to save your credit card information on your phone, tablet, or computer. This way, you can eliminate having to manually enter the information. For security purposes, we do not have a way to save payment information on our site, so you will need to use a third party service on your device to do so.

Q: I had ammo in my cart, and before I could enter my credit card information, it disappeared. What’s the deal?

A: The shopping cart does not “protect” your purchase until payment has been processed. We do not have the ability to add a protection timer to our website. We are a small business, not Ticketmaster or Bud’s Guns. We don’t have a full-time staff of web developers. At this time we do not have a solution for this problem and we do not anticipate having a solution in the near future.

Q: Can’t you guys work faster, put out more ammo, update inventory on a more regular basis, etc.?

A: Guys – if we could, we would. We are working on automating our quality control process to a greater degree and we are working to eliminate some inefficiencies in our process, but the supply chain is still a limiting factor and it will not be resolved any time in 2021. Rest assured we are not sitting on a warehouse full of ammo or components, just waiting to see people struggle. Component prices have gone up on EVERY SINGLE ORDER WE HAVE PLACED with our suppliers in the last eight months. We are a small company, and we can only control a small part of the manufacturing process.

Q: Can I just give you my credit card information NOW, and you can ship me ammo when you have some available?

A: Sorry, we really wish we could take pre-orders, but we cannot. If we took a pre-order from every person who has asked us to do so, we would never have anything to list on our website. We get hundreds of these requests every month and all of them get turned down. We are trying to keep the playing field as level as we can.

Q: Where is the defensive 9mm ammo?

A: We likely will not have defensive ammo available for at least a year. We cannot get the projectiles we need from Speer. We are looking into sourcing our own independently manufactured projectile, but this is a process that will take time, and we have many other issues that require our attention at this moment.

Q: I used to be able to buy your ammo for much cheaper. Why are you guys “price gouging”?

A: If you think ammo prices are going up for no reason, we are not sure what to tell you. The demand is outrageous – worse than the industry has ever seen. The supply of components is nearly nonexistent, and thus, the prices of those components have gone up significantly to the manufacturers. We are paying six to seven times the price for primers that we were paying in February 2020 – IF we can get them at all.

We really wish we could get back to normal, but that is not likely to happen any time soon.

We thank all of you for your support and continued patronage during these crazy times.



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[Rcmaveric]

They are having the same problems the rest of are having. If we can't find primers odds are they can't either.

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[Mmacro]

So this begs the question... if a FFL licensed manufacturer of ammunition is saying that the reason for their higher ammo prices is because they are paying six to seven times the price for primers... then the primer manufacturers are the ones driving the price increases.
And if you are listening to the primer manufactures, they are saying they are doing everything they can to meet demand, practically running 24-7. Well, if they suddenly have a 600% profit margin, why aren’t they reinvesting that into increasing production capacity?
Something ain’t right in this equation... somebody is getting over someplace.
Heck, why aren’t importers cashing in and importing primers, powder and other components from overseas?

[Coopaloop86]

You guys realize this is cyclical and gets worse everytime right? Trust me... its industry wide. The bug guys are cranking out at max capacity. The average Joe is panic buying and the middle man is getting rich. In 2-3 years, they'll be giving stuff away again. We did this in 2015. I work first hand with the ammo industry. I deal with this daily. I promise you, no one is holding back, and the only price gauging is taking place at a local store near you.

[CraigOK]

Just glad I learned from some of the last ones and have enough to do mostly what I need and can mostly trade for the rest. Hope it gets better and cheap again!

[Murphy]

I'm not surprised that 300,000 rounds of 9mm sold out in 6 minutes or less. I realize that not everyone is a fan of Gunbroker, nor cares to buy or sell on there. However, it seems to be a good gauge as to what is happening in ammunition pricing and availability, or the lack there of. Over the past 5-6 months, I have watched the prices climb, and climb, then after the election it sky rocketed.

I was having a hard time trying to wrap my mind around who would pay $650-$700 per case of 1,000 for simple ball 9mm? Apparently, a lot of people were and are. Not everyone reloads their own, and seemingly the majority of them do not cast their own. I can't see a recreational shooter spending that much for a case of 9mm. If they were worried about civil unrest, what are they going to do? Fight a war with a Glock?

And then there are the gun ranges who will not allow handloads on their range. Kick, cuss, scream all you want. It's their stick and ball, if you want to play it will be by their rules. And yes, they were making money off the ammunition, the same as it cost to rent a shooting lane. And a lot of those, will not allow people to police the very brass they just bought. I'm not sure how well the gun range business is going for some these days. But they're feeling the pinch the same as the rest of us, you can count on that. Fortunately, I live in a rural area and this is not a problem for myself and many others.

I was just thinking of the Tulsa spring gun show the past few days. I live in Oklahoma and have only been twice. It's more than I care to walk through in a day, yes, it truly is that big. I wondered what if 1 million primers were available at that show at a decent price how long they would last? Even if limited in quantity? I'm thinking about as long as a stick of butter tossed on a red hot frying pan. Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas and Kansas have 513 combined counties. And, there's someone in every one of them right now who would jump on a 1000 primers at $150-$200 a brick.


Murphy

[Rcmaveric]

So this begs the question... if a FFL licensed manufacturer of ammunition is saying that the reason for their higher ammo prices is because they are paying six to seven times the price for primers... then the primer manufacturers are the ones driving the price increases.
And if you are listening to the primer manufactures, they are saying they are doing everything they can to meet demand, practically running 24-7. Well, if they suddenly have a 600% profit margin, why aren’t they reinvesting that into increasing production capacity?
Something ain’t right in this equation... somebody is getting over someplace.
Heck, why aren’t importers cashing in and importing primers, powder and other components from overseas?Its the middle man charging those prices. Not the manufacturers. Shipping is also getting tough for hazardous materials.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

[truckerdave397]

So how much was/is Fenix charging for 1000 9mm 115 grain cartridges?

[snowwolfe]

Some people view paying $1 or more per round for 9mm, .223, .45 etc. astronomical and beyond their budget. Others view it as a minor inconvenience and will gladly pay that and more. I see people on various car forums who own expensive exotic cars buying up every case they can lay their hands on.
On another hunting forum I visit one member mentioned his father in law buys every box of ammo he can find no matter what the caliber. You will not see this shortage getting any better for at least the next 18-36 months. Because once the prices do drop then the average blow will buy it all and the richer guys will continue to stock because the price has gotten better.
Reload and stop worrying about it.

[Winger Ed.]

Something I noticed:

The full story is over on the rimfire page, but today I was in at our local guy selling some factory .223.
He had a better than average stock of ammo, but it was all different brands and odd & old labels.
Sure it was at 'modern' prices, but he had a bunch in most of the favorite calibers.
He was buying anything and everything he could get, and where ever he could get it from.

Since getting back into reloading and having free range brass, catching powder & GI bullet pulls, or factory seconds
at a good price, over the last 2-3 years I've loaded up all the .223 I'll ever shoot.

I figured it'd be a good time to sell the 900 factory, bulk packed FMJ ammo
I had left from a case I'd bought when I acquired the old Colt SP1, and wasn't reloading any more.
It's decent stuff, but I'll never shoot it anyway since I have the slightly tuned down reloads that I like better.

I went in and asked if he was interested in buying it. I really didn't think he would, sealed boxes or not.
I could have gotten more by 'marketing it properly', but I really wanted a 'once & done' deal I could live with.
I fully understand he isn't a retail buyer, but he jumped all over it and his first offer was $200 more than I thought I could get.

[Catshooter]

I've watched Fed 9mm HP go for more than $3 a round on Gunbroker lately.

This is the fourth or fifth shortage I've seen. Anyone that thinks this is going away in a few years is kidding themselves. They always take a while to calm down, and that's after the pressure's off. The pressure won't be off for all of Uncle Joe's term and if we get a decent President after that it'll still take better than a year to come back to something resembling normal. If.


Cat

[monadnock#5]

I won't argue any of the points made. All I want is a level playing field. I can't sign into my account and get my CC out of my wallet before 800 gazillion (fill in the blank) get bought up. The market is rigged, like shills at an estate auction.

[JimB..]

I won't argue any of the points made. All I want is a level playing field. I can't sign into my account and get my CC out of my wallet before 800 gazillion (fill in the blank) get bought up. The market is rigged, like shills at an estate auction.
But the playing field is level, other folks are just faster than us, have better intel or invested in technology to help. We can up our game, or choose to pay the higher prices.
Sorry, it’s just the free market at work in a bit of a crisis.

[Garyshome]

I don't think production capacity can be increased over night. Most likely very specialized equipment and fed. regulations.

[Garyshome]

OK another Cycle of higher ammo costs? So how long have WE been reloading? Why was it that a slew of members are complaining of A lack of components? Why weren't the components purchased when readily available? Wasn't most or all of this stuff available in 2019 for reasonable costs? What were members spending their $$$$$$ on when they could have been purchasing primers/Powder/brass/boolitz?

Anyone have a reply? I don't want to hear it because I purchased stuff when it was available:violin::violin::violin:

[Shawlerbrook]

Agree that we went through this before and we should have been prepared ( I am), but the shortages and gouging was never this widespread ( I mean just about every component, reloading equipment and every caliber of loaded ammo). Also, I do not believe that this will ever get to the point where( as someone above said)..”in 2-3 years they will be giving the stuff away”. There are just too many factors at play here, the virus, the urban racial strife and most impactful, the Democrats have a monopoly in DC.

[Coopaloop86]

I can you assure that more ammunition is being made than ever before. Now everytime I go to the range, it looks normal, if not fewer people due to price increases. It's simple supply and demand. Everyone bought everything they could get their hands on in '15 and then my company had lay offs in '16 because no one was panic buying anymore and most folks had stockpiled.

[JimB..]

To be fair, in my 20’s I’d probably have spent my money on other things too and then complained about the result.

I also think that inflation is going to catch us. Cheap energy and cheap labor have kept it in check, with various costs and benefits, but now we’re gonna be trying something new.

[jdfoxinc]

Primer loading is totally by hand, in an 80% humidity environment, ankle deep in water wearing conductive rubber boots. The process is tedious. Yet there are still accidents.

[uscra112]

Having been deeply involved in engineering automation for the auto industry, it pains me to see that the primer making process is still done by hand. This is a prime candidate for robots with vision systems if nothing else.

[Lloyd Smale]

Having been deeply involved in engineering automation for the auto industry, it pains me to see that the primer making process is still done by hand. This is a prime candidate for robots with vision systems if nothing else.

mechanics take electricity. Rotating parts moving creates static electricity. One mistake and you could blow the whole place up. Probably no room for an error in programming or a computer crashing. Im so far from a computer expert that truth be told my opinion means nothing but if it could be done safely it would have by now.

[Garyshome]

but now we’re gonna SCREWED by being FORCED to try something new by Xibiden

[Wayne Smith]

Good article in the current Rifleman about the ammo problems. Good news is that there are a couple new factories coming on line, a big one is that the Remington factory is now up and running again after being quiet for over a year. That's simply getting an existing facility up and running, not building new,

[Tripplebeards]

You guys realize this is cyclical and gets worse everytime right? Trust me... its industry wide. The bug guys are cranking out at max capacity. The average Joe is panic buying and the middle man is getting rich. In 2-3 years, they'll be giving stuff away again. We did this in 2015. I work first hand with the ammo industry. I deal with this daily. I promise you, no one is holding back, and the only price gauging is taking place at a local store near you.

Exactly
, stop buying and the price will go down. The cheapest I have ever seen AR prices and parts prices were after the last panic buy was over and suppliers were trying to get rid of their hoarded inventory that they thought was going to make them rich.

[Randy Bohannon]

4.1 million gun sales in one month has a significant impact on each gun with low estimate of two boxes of ammo = Shortage . That’s one month of gun sales in January vast majority of those guns are 9mm if your not set up to load anything you have paper weights in the very near future.
The Great Reset is in effect it is never going back to what you were used to,Gov. is poised to print $6T ,assault on finance companies that do anything gun related are being ramped up.Many untoward events are in the mix,keep your head and your supplies ,don’t sell anything.

[Ed K]

For those looking for the makers to invest in more capacity, would it even be wise to make capital expenditures in the face of an administration that could possibly be looking to squash the very activity that makes this forum thrive?

[Rcmaveric]

OK another Cycle of higher ammo costs? So how long have WE been reloading? Why was it that a slew of members are complaining of A lack of components? Why weren't the components purchased when readily available? Wasn't most or all of this stuff available in 2019 for reasonable costs? What were members spending their $$$$$$ on when they could have been purchasing primers/Powder/brass/boolitz?

Anyone have a reply? I don't want to hear it because I purchased stuff when it was available:violin::violin::violin:Child support and rent. I pay more in childsupport than some make a month. I will be free of that soon enough. First one turns 18 in August

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[dverna]

OK another Cycle of higher ammo costs? So how long have WE been reloading? Why was it that a slew of members are complaining of A lack of components? Why weren't the components purchased when readily available? Wasn't most or all of this stuff available in 2019 for reasonable costs? What were members spending their $$$$$$ on when they could have been purchasing primers/Powder/brass/boolitz?

Anyone have a reply? I don't want to hear it because I purchased stuff when it was available:violin::violin::violin:

My impression is that most of the longer term members on this site are not complaining much. Those that ar,e are either too poor to stock up or too stupid. I feel sorry for those who cannot stock up due to financial issues but hopefully they have been wise enough to conserve for hunting and self-defense. Seems newer reloaders/casters are the most vocal and that makes sense. They have been driven to reload/cast due to shortages/prices and find themselves way behind the curve. The smart ones will learn and stock up once things get to normal.

It is easy to be judgmental wrt to those who did not prepare, and I am guilty of that trait. I have helped out a handful of people. One member here but the others are people I know. I have also turned down requests from people who should have known better but did nothing. Sucks to be stupid. One of the stupid ones brags about being worth $2 million...he does not need my help.

[snowwolfe]

I do feel for some folks. Not everyone has the financial ability to buy components every time they see them on sale. For one shooter it could be a serious stretch to buy a brick of primers and 2 pounds of powder at the old prices. Thats at least $100.
Others could buy a couple of 8 pound jugs and 10 bricks and not break a sweat.
We all have different budgets.

[MUSTANG]

For those looking for the makers to invest in more capacity, would it even be wise to make capital expenditures in the face of an administration that could possibly be looking to squash the very activity that makes this forum thrive?

I view this differently. Historically; those businesses and individuals that usually prosper make investments when times are bad. Yes; the volume of ammunition produced and shot may/will go down as the market becomes saturated. This saturation may occur because there is no more closet space for storage of those buying and holding for bad times; or the hoarders, or the ..... The saturation may also diminish because
the volume of "New Shooters/Gun Buyers" slows, becomes stable, or diminishes. There is a probability that the needed "New Ammo Production" capacity will need to be higher to meet annual demands - that is an indicator for need of new plant capacity if you are in business for the long haul and not driven by short term strategies.

There is one area we as Shooters, Constitutional Conservatives, and those of self interest need to engage our CONGRESS CRITTERS. If our current facility capacity is running 24/7/352 - Then how the heck can we meet the needs for defending our nation in even a SMALL Shooting War? In the last couple of Ammo/Component shortages we saw many (including a couple of politicians) stating the Ammo was going to LEO's and the military; so there was not enough for the civilian market demands. This is a Canary in the Coal Mine indicator.

Since the WWI and WWII days; the Leaders of the Nation recognized that there was a need for Industry to have "Excess Capacity" and for the Nation to have large Stockpiles of critical raw materials and logistical supplies. All of the "Surplus" Ammo many of our more seasoned members were shooting for much of their lives came from aged and disposed of long term Ammunition supplies (allthough still viable for sporting purposes). Since the days of the Kennedy Wiz Kid administration we have slowly migrated away from these National Policies of "Excess Capacity (or more appropriately referred to as Wartime Contngency reserve Capacity) to JIT (Just in Time) production. Ammo has followed the same PROBLEM that is prevalent from the Wohoo Virus (Covid-19) pandemic; that being the US production is "Outsourced", Manufacturing no longer has "Surge Capacity", and JIT is proven not to be Just in Time if there are any hiccups.

We the People should be demanding our Congress Critters intervene and ensure there is "Wartime Surge Capacity" for Ammo and Reloading Components, and they return to the same concepts for Strategic Materials. Our largest and most insidious long term enemy threat currently is Communist China - and they recognize these areas I am addressing; buying and warehousing more than their current needs for China - so that if they need it they have it.

[reddog81]

I’m pretty sure the military is sitting on enough ammo to last a long time. Asking for Congress to determine how much ammo to make seems like a huge mistake to me.

The amount of 9mm ammo expended during wartime on any given day is probably a fraction of what is shot domestically.

[rbuck351]

I differ only slightly from Mustang. I believe our biggest threat is not China but the commies in our own govt. I believe Trump was doing fine against China. I believe Biden is the puppet and I'm not sure whether China or Soros is the puppet master.

As far as the shortage goes, there are those that don't have much if any discretionary money. I was there until my three kids were out of the house. However, even when the kids were young and I was twisting wrenches for a living, I did jobs after hours in trade for guns or cash. Most of the cash went to feed and house the family but occasionally a lb of powder or a couple boxes of 100 primers could be bought. I started reloading when I was 14 so I had the needed equipment before getting married. Also the kids didn't get a lot of the things that some of their friends did unless they got a job and could pay for it. My wife quit work to raise the kids when they came along as we both thought her being home for the kids was more important than buying them stuff they really didn't need. They all grew up to be independent hard workers. I am well aware of what digging through the couch or the car seats for nickles and dimes to get the kids cereal or milk is all about.

Now the price of all gun related stuff has gone through the roof for the ? time in my life, I am prepared. Now I can more afford $250 for 1000 primers than in times past I could afford $10 for 1000.

There are very few that could not afford to buy a box of ammo for their hunting rifle or their home defense weapon a few months ago. How much ammo do you really need for either? For those that didn't buy a box or two and instead bought a smart phone, I'm sorry you thought the phone was so important. I still use a flip phone but I have ammo. My new car is a 2001 Chevy Cavalier but I have ammo. It's too bad the Ant and the Grasshopper fable is racist and isn't taught in school any more. Maybe if they swapped the ant for the grasshopper it wouldn't be racist any more but then it wouldn't make sense either.

The Darwin award is always available for those that don't prepare. This probably sounds a bit cruel but I scrimped and saved my entire life and I'm not going to apologize for being prepared.

[rbuck351]

The military doesn't sit on ammo for a long time. They think it only lasts a couple of years and then needs to be replaced so they destroy it. Wouldn't want it to fall into the wrong hands even though it's to old to work.

[MUSTANG]

I’m pretty sure the military is sitting on enough ammo to last a long time. Asking for Congress to determine how much ammo to make seems like a huge mistake to me.

The amount of 9mm ammo expended during wartime on any given day is probably a fraction of what is shot domestically.

Red Dog; I will disagree. The amount of ammunition the military sits on fluctuates with National Policy. The vastly predominant expenditure of military ammunition is not in war - but in training. Initial boot camp and annual "Proficiency Training" is factored in; but in time of crisis these go up dramatically. In case of deployments - redeployment training and deployed "Pre-Conflict" training requires vast mounts of ammunition for training. Although the US military has many many billions of rounds in storage and deployed to forward areas - that ammunition can see significant draw downs in times of crisis. During the 1930's the US military relied on conversion units for many firearms to fire .22LR's as part of the training to allow some low level of "Live Fire Training"; while retaining the "Full Bore" ammo in war stocks. We saw similar efforts in cyclical manners up to today. One would think that at the end/post Vietnam period there would have been vast amounts of Ammunition in the military system; yet I remember in the 1970's when being assigned to guard duty ammo was in short supply so "Guard Duty Training" was dry firing for hours - then 3 rounds of .45, 3 rounds of 12 gauge, and 5 rounds of 5.56.

Traditionally; the Government has not controlled how much is made; rather they pay a fee for additional Plant floor space and machinery to be available when the Government Calls it up. They do not control production rate. My dad worked in a plant that manufactured Tank, Artillery, and Ship barrels. They had floor space and machinery/tooling sitting idle on one end that was paid to be there by Uncle Sugar.

With NO SURGE CAPACITY in industry; the Civilians, LEO's, and Military are at risk.

[contender1]

"And if you are listening to the primer manufactures, they are saying they are doing everything they can to meet demand, practically running 24-7. Well, if they suddenly have a 600% profit margin, why aren’t they reinvesting that into increasing production capacity?
Something ain’t right in this equation... somebody is getting over someplace.
Heck, why aren’t importers cashing in and importing primers, powder and other components from overseas?"

Look closely at this.
Primers, are the one component that is the least available. There are not many actual manufacturing plants in the USA that are capable of making them.
It's NOT easy to build a new plant,, AND the expense needs to be justified,, over the long term. Once the supply catches the demands,, as noted above,, about going from full capacity to lay-offs in a year.

Next,, the cost of the raw materials to make ammo,, has risen so the mfg's have HAD to increase their prices. This of course, gets passed along to consumers. But they are NOT making a 600% profit. That's the secondary market.

Importing components; Think "Tariff's" on all imported goods AND raw materials. Remember,, we no longer have a lead refinery operating in this country. Again,, the expense has risen all over all sections of this market.

And loaded ammo;
The manufacturers have previously signed contracts with the government, and LEO agencies,, that were signed well before the current demands. A legal obligation to fulfill these contracts takes priority over ANY non-contract buyer.

Next,, think of the FACT that US manufacturing has shifted over the last few decades to "lean manufacturing" & NOT warehousing products. Having a warehouse full of a product costs money, and the bean counters listen to the stockholders who want profits,, so they have stopped warehousing as much as they can. They only set themselves up for projected sales for the year, and NOT for any sudden shortages.

There is not a single, one answer, or fix to it all.

It's kinda like a lumberjack with an ax. he can't fell a mighty oak with just one whack, but he can fell it with MANY successive cuts. We, as a Country, have been whacking away at many things to where the mighty oak has fallen or is about to fall.

And the simple answer is MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!

People want to make a profit on their investments, and the consumers want to pay the least amount for any product. Look around,, and many are complaining about the price of primers at $150-$250 per brick. When it was available at $150 per case,, many would only buy a brick, thinking the supply would always be available.
I own some stock, and I WISH I had bought more at the price I paid initially. Over the years,, following the stock,,, I've added a modest amount, as my funds allowed, and I enjoy a quarterly dividend check.
I know not everybody can do as I've done,, and I'll admit I didn't start such important things when I was younger,, because I didn't have the money to do so. Or,, let's say I didn't put forth the EFFORT to do it like I have done in the last 30 years.

With age, comes wisdom, IF we listen to the wise folks before us.

So,, the problem does NOT have an easy solution.

[Ickisrulz]

I do feel for some folks. Not everyone has the financial ability to buy components every time they see them on sale. For one shooter it could be a serious stretch to buy a brick of primers and 2 pounds of powder at the old prices. Thats at least $100.
Others could buy a couple of 8 pound jugs and 10 bricks and not break a sweat.
We all have different budgets.

Shooting is not an inexpensive hobby.

[Rcmaveric]

The military doesn't sit on ammo for a long time. They think it only lasts a couple of years and then needs to be replaced so they destroy it. Wouldn't want it to fall into the wrong hands even though it's to old to work.We shoot it off. I love when ammo is expiring. We do a mass gun requal day. What doesn't get used, make friends with the GM so you can shoot it off after hours with them.

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[MUSTANG]

I note how societal impacts, where one lies in the economic strata, and the choices individuals have/will make has significant play in the discussion. All have an impact, but they are the root causes and require long term strategic action to resolve. I fear that we have few in our local, state and Federal governance who are up to that challenge today. I see the immediacy of the Problem being addressed across this and other threads on this and parallel threads. As an example; my wife has a friend from college that we have maintained close ties to her and her husband who passed away last year. After his death; she came to visit for a month. Her neighbors in Florida had numerous times advocated after her husbands death that she needed to get a hand gun for self protection even though she lives in a nice neighborhood. Their reasoning was that they would look out for her, but they are not always there and if needed she should be able to defend herself in absence of neighbors presence. Any way; we took her to the Range several times during her visit and had her "FamFire" (old USMC slang I couldn't resist - Familiarization Firing of a Firearm). She got to shoot single action Ruger revolvers, Double action S&W revolvers of various calibers and barrel lengths, and the old tried and true 1911 as well as a Beretta and a couple of other Wonder 9's. She decided she liked the S&W 38/357 revolvers with 2"-3" barrels best. After returning the Jacksonville Florida; she went and got some training and got her Concealed Carry permit; ordered an S&W Air Weight revolver and waited 5 months until she got it. Earlier this February she was talking to my wife and mentioned that she wanted to practice some - BUT that at $80.00 a box of 20 at the Gun Range she was hesitant to go shooting more than once every 6 months to a year. Well, Mustang stepped in - went out the the Reloading shed and dug around until 500 rounds of Range 38 Special could be assimilated, then digging to find 148Gr Wadcutters and 158 Grain SemiWadcutters to load. Loaded 500 rounds - reboxed them into .38 Special Boxes scrounged from the Trash Cans at the Range over the last few years; located a heavy duty box of appropriate size - then off to her via UPS. shipping. She can now go every couple of weeks and shoot a few rounds to establish and maintain a comfort level with her new revolver.

Thrust of the story is that we have two problems. We need to find ways to resolve the Ammo Shortage - including putting our Conservative elected officials on the hook to fight the shadow wars concerning things that may be affecting our Ammunition Production/Access; but also addressing the immediacy of the problem that surrounds most of us with our friends, neighbors, and family.

[Tripplebeards]

The military doesn't sit on ammo for a long time. They think it only lasts a couple of years and then needs to be replaced so they destroy it. Wouldn't want it to fall into the wrong hands even though it's to old to work.


Police departments do the same thing. My buddies uncle gives them more “expired” ammo then they know what do do with.

All I can say is ammo must not be a profitable business or manufacturers would hire more employees and buy more equipment to increase production.

[MrWolf]

I started digging my old stash of factory ammo. I found boxes of 45's and some 9's from 2013 that I think was my first scare and paid for my entry in the game. I might just recoup my money and then some getting rid of "extra" factery ammo. I always keep some boxes around for when friends or family show up with kids to shoot vs my reloads.

[reddog81]

Red Dog; I will disagree. The amount of ammunition the military sits on fluctuates with National Policy.
...
With NO SURGE CAPACITY in industry; the Civilians, LEO's, and Military are at risk.

The government owns the Lake City Ammo Plant. It’s operations are currently being run by Winchester. I’d be willing to bet they have the capacity to manufacture whatever they need irrespective of what going on with the civilian market.

[farmbif]

I don't even want to speculate, aint no telling where all this is going. one thing for sure its one of those life lessons for those who were not thinking about being prepared for the future.

[Gator 45/70]

If and when? Primers return to the 30 dollar range per 1 K you can bet I'm buying a whole pallet of SP Primers

A person could easily triple his money every election cycle.

[slim1836]

It's worse than before, now we are out of almost everything and resorting to the barter system. Dies, molds, reloading equipment, powder, and primers in general are mostly out of stock everywhere. This shortage is effecting everything that has to do with our hobby. The shortage is not going to lessen as long as panic buying continues, just like toilet paper shortages was last year.

I bought what I could with what extra cash I had at the time and still need more. I'll shoot less of my reloads and shoot black powder for a while along with .177 pellets. I may buy a slingshot next., or a blowgun. I'll not get bored.

Living only on social security limits what I can do, and prepare for. My life is still better than 75% of the rest of the world, I am truly blessed.

Slim

[butch2570]

25 years ago , a person wasn’t competing for the supplies on the internet.
I simply bought things from any number of very close , gun stores.

Today, where I live , there is 1 tiny little gun store that has hardly nothing in stock, when there is good supplies .
So everyone just jumps online and treats supplies like day traders on the stock market, that compounds the buying panic.

We’ve seen this in the early 90s, 2008 , 2012,2015.
More and more people are looking, prices are extreme.

Just like the pistol powder shortage a few years ago, when the supplies came back , I bought enough to last me from here on out .
This is a long long long way from over , unless Remington and Tula ,Wolf , Sellior, and Magtech, get their products back on the market place.

[Iowa Fox]

The Wolf and Tula were really good primers. I have a hunch if they make a comeback the F class boys will be on them like a dog on a bone. The S&B and Magtech were good also. Vista has enough experience so that when they get the Remington plant going it should be good stuff.I have a hunch these days of tight supply are going last at least a couple of years.

[Garyshome]

Well when I was buying supplies it wan not easy at all I had to pay off the credit cards, took a long time, but not as hard as it would take if I bought that stuff today.

[Idaho45guy]

I don't recall seeing Lee die sets going up 300% on Amazon the last shortage.

278692

[monadnock#5]

.....have better intel or invested in technology to help. We can up our game, or choose to pay the higher prices......

My complaint revolves around the extract above. It is obvious that there are those with a technological edge. I've heard of this edge referred to as a "bot". A program that allows a bidder or a purchaser to monitor email notifications and bid or purchase automatically without further input from the client. Until myself, and everyone else here has access to this technology, the field is not level.

Please!! Don't anyone worry about me. I gave up trying to add to my cushion when prices went beyond 2-3X "normal". I sure would like me a bot though that I could set for when the Happy Days Are almost Here Again.

[JimB..]

My complaint revolves around the extract above. It is obvious that there are those with a technological edge. I've heard of this edge referred to as a "bot". A program that allows a bidder or a purchaser to monitor email notifications and bid or purchase automatically without further input from the client. Until myself, and everyone else here has access to this technology, the field is not level.

Please!! Don't anyone worry about me. I gave up trying to add to my cushion when prices went beyond 2-3X "normal". I sure would like me a bot though that I could set for when the Happy Days Are almost Here Again.

I get it, you feel like you don’t have the same opportunity to buy as some others do. But with few exceptions, the rules appear to be the same for everyone right now. The only exceptions I can think of are where folks know someone on the inside at a retail store and get a call before things hit the shelves. In the last shortage we bemoaned the group of guys that would hit the Walmart and buy the 22lr before we could get there. It sucked, but those guys were simply working harder or smarter than we were, and this is the same.

To compound the sports analogy, a team may practice a lot or a little. The team that practices a lot will often be better than the team that practices little, but that’s not because they have an unfair advantage, it’s because they train more.

A bot is simply a program that watches a website, and when a certain event happens it takes a specific action. Many websites have implemented tactics to slow or confuse such bots because it’s bad for their business to have one buyer grab everything and flip it at a profit, but that's beside the point. If you want a bot or I want a bot we too can have one. We can either learn how to make one, or we can pay someone to make one. It’s just a technology race in a reasonably free market.

What you’re envisioning is equality of outcome without regard to effort, and to get that you must change the rules, or tilt the playing field, so everyone gets the same outcome regardless of investment, effort or ability...that’s socialism.

I hate that we can’t purchase ammo or components at the historically low prices that we saw a year ago, but the last thing anyone should want is government intervention in the ammo, component and gun market to ensure equality of outcome. You think prices are stupid now, just consider where they’d be if they reflected the government inputs for healthcare and education!

Sorry for the rant, but I am bothered when folks blur the ideas of equal opportunity and equal outcome, it is one of the critical differences that makes America the great nation that it is.

[monadnock#5]

I sometimes waver between conservative and libertarian but haven't dabbled in socialism since 1983. The year my daughter was born.

[JimB..]

I sometimes waver between conservative and libertarian but haven't dabbled in socialism since 1983. The year my daughter was born.

LOL, meant to make you think, but didn’t mean to offend. Apologies if I missed the mark.

[Tripplebeards]

25 years ago , a person wasn’t competing for the supplies on the internet.
I simply bought things from any number of very close , gun stores.

Today, where I live , there is 1 tiny little gun store that has hardly nothing in stock, when there is good supplies .
So everyone just jumps online and treats supplies like day traders on the stock market, that compounds the buying panic.

We’ve seen this in the early 90s, 2008 , 2012,2015.
More and more people are looking, prices are extreme.

Just like the pistol powder shortage a few years ago, when the supplies came back , I bought enough to last me from here on out .
This is a long long long way from over , unless Remington and Tula ,Wolf , Sellior, and Magtech, get their products back on the market place.


I think that’s the generation me myself I actually left the house during the panic by last fall in my local gun shop had piles of primers in stock for 39.99 a brick with a 1 a day limit. I bought 18 bricks on several visits and figured I’d bought enough. I can’t wait till the overbuying used gun and pistol surplus hits the market like the AR surplus was liquidated when Trump took office.

[perotter]

The Wolf and Tula were really good primers. I have a hunch if they make a comeback the F class boys will be on them like a dog on a bone. The S&B and Magtech were good also. Vista has enough experience so that when they get the Remington plant going it should be good stuff.I have a hunch these days of tight supply are going last at least a couple of years.

I'd guess that Tula and Wolf are using all the primers they can make to load ammo they can sell.

[uscra112]

I think that’s the generation me myself I actually left the house during the panic by last fall in my local gun shop had piles of primers in stock for 39.99 a brick with a 1 a day limit. I bought 18 bricks on several visits and figured I’d bought enough. I can’t wait till the overbuying used gun and pistol surplus hits the market like the AR surplus was liquidated when Trump took office.

Somehow I don't think that the overstock that will be liquidated first will be top quality merchandise.

[MUSTANG]

We keep hearing the US Manufacturers are making all they can 24/7/365; but I am not seeing US manufactured Ammo on any shelves (except 8 boxes of .300 Savage at Sportsmans Ski Haus). All the ammo I see is White Box stuff from overseas such as Philippines, Korea, Czech Republic, etc.. Seems if they are making Billions of rounds and shipping it into the market as stated - some of it would show up on a shelf somewhere I visit. I understand the leakage into the Auction Markets - but none in the stores is a head scratcher.

[uscra112]

American branded ammo is certainly showing up online. At famine prices of course.

[Shawlerbrook]

Some very good insights above. A few that struck a cord with me are , )1 the biggest enemy we have are the leftists within our shores, 2) are the gun companies hedging their bets on future investment when the current administration wants to eliminate them , and 3) Yes, most of us old timers have been through this before and are pretty well set, but that does not prevent us from complaining about the situation. And finally, things will get worse, probably for good, so I wouldn’t sell anything that you might ever need in the future. And ps: there are far fewer outlets(gun shops) around now.

[Burnt Fingers]

We keep hearing the US Manufacturers are making all they can 24/7/365; but I am not seeing US manufactured Ammo on any shelves (except 8 boxes of .300 Savage at Sportsmans Ski Haus). All the ammo I see is White Box stuff from overseas such as Philippines, Korea, Czech Republic, etc.. Seems if they are making Billions of rounds and shipping it into the market as stated - some of it would show up on a shelf somewhere I visit. I understand the leakage into the Auction Markets - but none in the stores is a head scratcher.

I walked into a Walmart the other day and they had gotten more CCI rimfire in and some Federal centerfire stuff. I scooped up three of those 100 round milk cartons of 22 mag ammo.

A local Academy gets ammo on Mon, Wed, Friday. They open at 0900. They use employees to escort people back to the ammo area to keep them from running through the store. All the ammo is typically gone by 0915, even with the limits they have in place.

[Burnt Fingers]

If and when? Primers return to the 30 dollar range per 1 K you can bet I'm buying a whole pallet of SP Primers

A person could easily triple his money every election cycle.

I doubt you'll see $30/1000 after this shortage. I'm guessing that it will be around $37-$38/1000 for CCI/Winchester/Federal/Remington.

[Tripplebeards]

I agree, primers will end up hiking up to $40 bucks a brick when this is all done and over.
Im hoping Remington primers will be produced again.

[toallmy]

I checked out G.B. last night just for kicks , and noticed that they have 320 pages of primers listed , so it seems like there are plenty available just at ridiculous prices . It also looks like everyone is cleaning out the old leftover stuff they had around like 40-50 year old primers .
Be safe

[uscra112]

And finally, things will get worse, probably for good, so I wouldn’t sell anything that you might ever need in the future.

And ps: there are far fewer outlets(gun shops) around now.

I'm certainly not selling anything. He who dies with the most ammo (brass, primers) wins.

Sad but true: the Internet is killing the LGS. Around this rural region the only "gun stores" are either small departments in the back of hardware stores, or home-based businesses. Fella in the next town over who'd been doing that tried opening a new standalone store selling guns and hunting supplies about 2 years ago. Last month I bid on some stuff in the liquidation auction. A semi-big-box business called Woodland Outfitters with two locations north of me gave it up about two years ago. That was the last place on this side of the River that actually stocked reloading supplies. Now I'd have to drive to the Cabelas east of Wheeling to buy at retail. Over an hour each way, and they won't have anything anyway, so yeah, I buy from Powder Valley, Grafs, et.al. when I need anything.

[gbrown]

Not only is the Internet affecting the LGS, but also the big nation chains. When Gander Mountain opened up here, there were 3-5 LGS within 20 miles of me. GM bought all of them out for exorbitant prices and then moved the inventory from the stores into their store. There are now about 2 LGS within 30 to 40 miles from me.

[Rcmaveric]

I'm certainly not selling anything. He who dies with the most ammo (brass, primers) wins.

I laughed way to hard at that. I like it. Think it be my next life slogan. Like how basic ...woman... get those Live, Love, Laugh stickers on the wall.

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[David2011]

Shooting is not an inexpensive hobby.

The only cheap hobby that I can think of is reading books from the library.

[Rcmaveric]

The only cheap hobby that I can think of is reading books from the library.You can down load every new York best seller and book you think of.... for free..... if you know where to look online. I plea the fith... but I do love a nice full book case.

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[376Steyr]

Shooting is not an inexpensive hobby.

Stick a racing car in your garage, or a couple of horses in your barn, and you'll wish you had stuck to shooting!:twisted:

[Idaho45guy]

We keep hearing the US Manufacturers are making all they can 24/7/365; but I am not seeing US manufactured Ammo on any shelves.

I live about 50 miles from the CCI/Speer plant and my LGS has gotten in primers a couple of times, but they were Federal brand. All the ammo they've gotten in has been either Remington, Hornady, Federal, HSM, or some other small American brand I hadn't heard of before.

I also heard that the CCI/Speer plant has about 100 openings. Talked to someone who knows someone there and you start at $17 an hour, work 12-hour graveyard shifts, and work weekends. That's a young man's game, now. But, you do get to buy ammo and components.

I hear there is a substantial amount of burnout there.

[Ickisrulz]

The only cheap hobby that I can think of is reading books from the library.

Growing your own food would be a hobby that saves you all kinds of money.

[la5676]

I agree, primers will end up hiking up to $40 bucks a brick when this is all done and over.
Im hoping Remington primers will be produced again.

Our club got order of 209s in recently, Winchesters and Cheddites, 125,000 total. We sell to club at cost, but our cost was $33 on Wins, and $27 on the Cheds. Grafs seems to be holding prices on primers.

[gbrown]

Our club got order of 209s in recently, Winchesters and Cheddites, 125,000 total. We sell to club at cost, but our cost was $33 on Wins, and $27 on the Cheds. Grafs seems to be holding prices on primers.
Glad you are in your situation, great for you. Really mean it. I'm good where I'm at. Feel sorry for those that aren't. Just a situation that those who aren't prepared are suffering. Not much more I can say.

[NWPilgrim]

After a about the third shortage I learned not to buy for the LAST shortage, but for the next bigger one.

Back in the 80s I had maybe two boxes of ammo per caliber and just picked up at the store what I needed before going shooting. Then we had an ammo and primer shortage so when it eased up I bought or reloaded 500 rds per caliber.

The next ammo shortage lasted not several months but a couple of years and I was hurting again. So I upped my game afterward to a couple thousand per most used calibers.

Along comes 2008 and after a few family shootfests I am scraping bottom again. After that I wised up and increased to ammo and components for at least 5K rounds of most used calibers and a couple thousand of the less used ones.

A year ago I figured that was enough to last me to the death bed. Now, with the new shortage and maybe a 5-6 yr outlook of likely continued shortage (at best) I am once again re-evaluating my inventories. I will be much more prudent when going to the range. Been helping younger family members but may have to tighten that up some. I will start to shift more shooting sessions to .22LR of which I have lots. Reduce my center fire shooting to conserve for unknown duration.

The good thing is we seem to have millions more new gun owners in the last few years. I am willing to endure shortages if it is partly from vast numbers of new shooters. The politics is what makes everything nervous and unpredictable so purchases skyrocket.

When supplies return I think you hardly can’t stock too deep. Whatever you can imagine likely is nowhere near as dire as the next shortage will be.

[FISH4BUGS]

What shortage?
I learned my lesson last time around.
Rather than put some bucks into silver or in savings, I stocked up on primers, powder, and fmj bullets (.223 and .308)
I cast for all my pistol caliber bullets.
More brass than I will use in my lifetime.
A case of .22's...a lifetime supply.
Like I said........what shortage?

[JimB..]

A case of .22's...a lifetime supply.


Sorry to hear that you’ll be leaving us so soon.

[sw282]

l read somewhere that current US Ammo production is app 2.5 billion, 40% rimfire. lt seems Copper has gone thru the ROOF. That's LOGICAL. Lead prices seem to be LOW. No LOGIC there!

Also in same read, twas stated WW2 wartime small arms ammo production 1941-1945 was Twenty Billion Rds
per YEAR

[snowwolfe]

There are no shortages. There are just buyers who pay more than others or they beat you to the store and buy it while you are home sleeping.

[Rcmaveric]

There are no shortages. There are just buyers who pay more than others or they beat you to the store and buy it while you are home sleeping.Aint that the truth. I was in California last shortage and hadn't started reloading yet. You had to be at Walmart by 0400 to beat the line. The line was out the store by 0415. They didn't open the sporting good section till 0600.

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[FISH4BUGS]

Sorry to hear that you’ll be leaving us so soon.

The problem is that I can cast and reload center fire pistol rounds for less than I can buy 22's.
Plus, i don't shoot much .22 anyway.
Why bother?

[MUSTANG]

l read somewhere that current US Ammo production is app 2.5 billion, 40% rimfire. lt seems Copper has gone thru the ROOF. That's LOGICAL. Lead prices seem to be LOW. No LOGIC there!

Also in same read, twas stated WW2 wartime small arms ammo production 1941-1945 was Twenty Billion Rds
per YEAR


Although high and spiking last month or so; Copper is NOT at a historical high. We can look back at prices under the OBUMMER administration and see that Copper was higher in 2012 than is its in 2021. This is probably due to Anti-Mining policies of the Obummers being reactivated under the "Biden it Up" policies which seem to be resurrecting old bad policies.

278776

[SSGOldfart]

I doubt you'll see $30/1000 after this shortage. I'm guessing that it will be around $37-$38/1000 for CCI/Winchester/Federal/Remington.

I'm guessing a $100.00 a brick, ever noticed primers are packaged for sell in hundred packs, but we mostly but by the bricks or 1000 pack.with some buying by the case of 5k or more. Lots of ideals and theories why we are in another shortage. All we can do is wait it out,but with 50K members on this site we should be able to come up with a way around this problem.

[JimB..]

The problem is that I can cast and reload center fire pistol rounds for less than I can buy 22's.
Plus, i don't shoot much .22 anyway.
Why bother?

Agree, I’m shooting more 38spcl than I am 22lr these days. Still don’t think a case would last me more than a couple years, but it’ll depend how things evolve.

[snowwolfe]

I shoot .22’s almost every day of my life. That’s why I always buy some when they are on sale.

[NWPilgrim]

I shoot .22’s almost every day of my life. That’s why I always buy some when they are on sale.

A couple of years ago I went down the rat hole of trying to determine the best ammo for my .22 rifles (sporters). I tried all the common brands and bullet styles then some if the European and US target styles. Spent most of a year shooting almost all .22. That got me back into enjoying the little cartridge again. Our range has steel .22 silhouettes at various distances which is a lot of fun. As well as the pop cans at the gravel pit. Wish I was out in the country like I grew up in and just shoot in the back yard every day. Plenty of fun and good skill building.

Now I shoot .22 about 1/4 of the time and center fire the rest. Probably start leaning more towards 50/50.

[VariableRecall]

I'm guessing a $100.00 a brick, ever noticed primers are packaged for sell in hundred packs, but we mostly but by the bricks or 1000 pack.with some buying by the case of 5k or more. Lots of ideals and theories why we are in another shortage. All we can do is wait it out,but with 50K members on this site we should be able to come up with a way around this problem.

Realistically, I'm thinking more along the lines of $60 per Brick. Considering the 3% increase on ammunition for some manufacturers, it most likely is going to be a significant, but not overbearing increase in price.

[Ickisrulz]

When this panic is over, prices will go back down to where they began. Maybe even a bit lower. This is what happens every time. Eventually people will stop buying everything up and there will be a normal supply, even a bit of a surplus.

[tbpollard]

The sportsman's near me had some primers and ammo come in Saturday morning; I went to get some and by the time I got there it was all gone. The panic buying is still going on sadly. I think when it all finally stops and everyone is sitting on 10k primers, we're going to see a price collapse.

[Tripplebeards]

Our club got order of 209s in recently, Winchesters and Cheddites, 125,000 total. We sell to club at cost, but our cost was $33 on Wins, and $27 on the Cheds. Grafs seems to be holding prices on primers.


My LGS still has bricks of 209 of $39.99. No body seems worried about shotgun primers around here.

[tbpollard]

If I had to guess, I would think this is going to continue through 2021 and most likely into 2022. If they pass major gun legislation then another year or two after that.

[Tripplebeards]

When this panic is over, prices will go back down to where they began. Maybe even a bit lower. This is what happens every time. Eventually people will stop buying everything up and there will be a normal supply, even a bit of a surplus.


I agree to a point. Supply will finally catch up demand and after all the hoarders spend every last dollar they have on primers there will be inventory collecting sit on the shelves again. After retailers can move their overly priced inventory the prices will drop again. I wouldn’t expect this to happen for at least 2 years.

I went to farm and fleet yesterday to buy some stain. I checked out the ammo department and there were four boxes of 16 gauge shotgun ammo there and four boxes of 3” 12 gauge steel. Naked shelves. It’s a joke. We caused this stupidity by panic buying and hoarding.

[Wayne Smith]

Those like me who like Tula and Wolf products need to realize that they are imported from Russia - and international trade and politics have more to do with availability than anything else.

[uscra112]

Also in same read, twas stated WW2 wartime small arms ammo production 1941-1945 was Twenty Billion Rds per YEAR

Those of us with very long memories (or who read history) know that from mid 1942 until end of 1946 there was NO ammunition of ANY kind available for the civilian market, except you could get .22s thru CMP for a govt. certified youth training program, and if you were a farmer you might talk your way into a box of .22LR for pest control from time to time. Police and civilian plant guards got issued a mere trickle of .38 Spl. or shotgun ammo. Not even enough for proficiency training. If you got hired as a cop or a guard it was assumed you already knew how to shoot. Hunters dug out Grampa's old smokepole and relearned the art of the flintlock. (Black powder was still available, but not caps.) Long range varmint shooters who used .22 centerfires, and had stocks of primers and powder laid by, couldn't get bullets, which is why Fred Huntington and others invented tools to make them from spent rimfire hulls. (Copper hulls, not the brass we use today.)

[Tripplebeards]

I just visited my LGS. No primers on the shelf. I asked if they new of any coming in. I asked about shotgun primers and SP. They had shotgun primers hidden in the back. They had a 500 hundred limit at $5 per hundred. Only went up a $1 per $100 from normal price. I grabbed 500 which will last me a lifetime as all I use them for is my inline muzzle loader. I already have probably 300 or 400 Winchester 209’s if had to guess. I grabbed these to mess around with making BP equivalent loads in my Damascus SXS 10 gauge. Still only 8 and 7 1/2 shot. I need to find 5 or 6 shot locally now so I don’t get gouged from shipping.

[M-Tecs]

Those like me who like Tula and Wolf products need to realize that they are imported from Russia - and international trade and politics have more to do with availability than anything else.

Obama banned their import in 2014. Trump never changed it.

[Winger Ed.]

which is why Fred Huntington and others invented tools to make them from spent rimfire hulls. (Copper hulls, not the brass we use today.)

As a teenage I think, that's how Mr. Hornady got going in the early/mid 1940s.
By making jacketed projectiles from spent .22 cases.

[M-Tecs]

As a teenage I think, that's how Mr. Hornady got going in the early/mid 1940s.
By making jacketed projectiles from spent .22 cases.

https://www.hornady.com/corporate/company-history/

[Rcmaveric]

Obama banned their import in 2014. Trump never changed it.Now that you mention it. I havent seen Tule or Wolf in a long time.

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[rockrat]

I wonder if it came to it, that you could ream out the primer pocket area of, say, a 45-70, to where it would take a shotgun primer, so you could at least shoot.

[rbuck351]

Sure, I use shotgun primers in berdan cases that have been opened and recessed.

[gbrown]

Back in WWII, police agencies cast and reloaded ammo for training and carry. That's why various manufacturers, H-G and SAECO made the gang molds.

[jim147]

Tulammo and other steel case brands are stil coming in weekly. It's went up but the gun store north of me has some instock every week.

[Martin Luber]

Back in WWII, police agencies cast and reloaded ammo for training and carry. That's why various manufacturers, H-G and SAECO made the gang molds.
And the Star loaders. That machine wasn't for hobby users!

A lot of bad gun laws ITAR included weren't addressed by Trump. The Democrats pander to the blacks like the Repubs do for the gun owners, with both doing nothing for either.

[uscra112]

Back in WWII, police agencies cast and reloaded ammo for training and carry. That's why various manufacturers, H-G and SAECO made the gang molds.

They were doing that at least as early as the '20s, but yeah, they surely kept it up during the war if they had the powder and primers.

[farmbif]

as far as things going back to normal. I'm afraid that ship has sailed. came to this conclusion after a trip to Hodgdon reload data center where they now sell powder directly to us. 8lb jug of h4350 is currently $273.99 last jug I got at lgs less than a year ago was less than $210 out the door and that included sales tax rate of 9.25%.
I got a feeling prices are going to be much higher if inventories ever get replenished.

[RogerDat]

My guess is primers will eventually stabilize between the $34 of pre-pandemic and $52 of post pandemic but still in stores. It is totally, 100% for sure and certain that eventually this run will end. At some point people will have enough squirreled away that the market will dry up. Prices will drop which will bring back in people who are currently priced out, their needs will get saturated and sellers will start to cut prices.

We saw it after Sandy Hook, heck I was looking at finally buying a turret press and the site went from 24 in stock to 6 month back order while I looked at another page for a minute to be sure I had the right model number. That took until around the Pulse night club shooting to get settled. I recall putting in an order for some bulk powder and primers just before that night club shooting in Florida. Supply got a little tight after that but not real bad. When the school in Florida had the shooting that mobilized people there was again a bit of panic buying but most had really stocked up by then so it wasn't as bad. Also the ADI pistol powder manufacturing facility was back on line after the fire which helped keep people from finding "empty shelves" that lead to more panic.

This time we had a pandemic, people that hardly know which end of a gun the bullet goes in or comes out of were worried about needing protection and stocking up on ammo. Funny when you think about it. On one hand some were saying no worse than the flu while others were saying TEOTWAWKI some were the same people I think. We had a presidential election which also tends to spur some uncertainty that leads to extra stockpiling. However by then there really wasn't much available to stock up on. A Democratic party win would normally lead to some folks buying more in anticipation of future regulations. Congress is debating a bill on firearms is sure to ignite a panic buying spree, has before and will again, so I figure we have that one ahead of us still.

I'm lucky I'm naturally inclined to build inventory of what I want to have available. As I approach retirement age I'm aware that it is easier for me to afford purchasing items now than it will be once income drops in retirement. This has made me tend to build up my pantry of components. What frosts my McNuggets is the way people are scarfing up so many items that I know they don't really want because they listen to the gloom and doom predictions and make flintlocks and cap & ball items out of stock, no backorder. No way the entire world is suddenly into black powder. That is 100% driven by what if the world is going to end? What if there is massive civil unrest? What if hundreds of thousands of people die and society breaks down? Oh wait they did die and society didn't fall apart, and still the BP firearms are all back ordered

Someone speculated about people hoarding 9mm thinking they were going to fight a war with their Glock. I'm figuring they might just be ahead of the folks planning to fight that war with a navy colt cap and ball revolver.

If the folks who drive these panics would just buy their supplies when there isn't a panic going on we would all be way better off. Unfortunately the smart thing for the individual in a shortage is generally to score as much as possible, the smart thing for us as a whole is to not stockpile. Guess which one has won for at least a half century that I have been paying attention? So you guys who bought my Y2K surplus ammo for almost a buck a round might want to consider buying a few thousand rounds to keep on hand ONCE THIS IS OVER and the price drops again. Just an idea. Boy howdy Y2K now that was a good panic which sold an awful lot of guns, ammo, and generators for sure. I do think the food banks got a windfall in canned goods a while after that nothing burger was over. Will be looking forward to hopefully seeing some deals on down the road.

[Winger Ed.]

Boy howdy Y2K now that was a good panic that sold an awful lot of generators for sure.

Afterwards, I think there was a lot of dogs eating MREs too.

I got bashed on constantly because I didn't think it was going to be a big deal and total collapse of
Western civilization if computers forgot what year it was.
I told people I wasn't going to stockpile water, gas, or get a bigger generator because my water bill might be a few days late.

[Catshooter]

When this panic is over, prices will go back down to where they began. We'll be lucky if this panic ever ends. Biden & Co. haven't even introduced any gun control yet. Maybe even a bit lower. This has never, ever happened, not one time. This is what happens every time. Nope. Eventually people will stop buying everything up and there will be a normal supply, even a bit of a surplus. What color is the sky in your world dude?

It'd be nice though.

[Ickisrulz]

It'd be nice though.

That has been my experience. Right before this last panic, primers could be had on sale almost anytime you wanted to buy them (I assume sellers had too much inventory on hand). 22 ammo was at the same price it was before the panic also and you could buy as much as you wanted anywhere it was sold. People swore up and done we'd never see 22 LR below 4 cents around again, but we did.

Eventually people will stop buying everything they see, stores will be stocked again and prices will go down. At that point I will stock up again.

[Wayne Smith]

Back in WWII, police agencies cast and reloaded ammo for training and carry. That's why various manufacturers, H-G and SAECO made the gang molds.

Ideal made gang molds for the 45-70 in the 1890's - both for the regular boolits and for the collar button boolit.

[M-Tecs]

From 1936 and they were using gang molds long before this. Casting starts at about 13 minutes. Interesting double gang mold.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDP8BRSEjrA

[jakharath]

Wonder how many hands were pinched having one guy pull the handle and another guy putting bullets on.

[perotter]

Afterwards, I think there was a lot of dogs eating MREs too.

I got bashed on constantly because I didn't think it was going to be a big deal and total collapse of
Western civilization if computers forgot what year it was.
I told people I wasn't going to stockpile water, gas, or get a bigger generator because my water bill might be a few days late.

For that one I did absolutely nothing to get ready for. I started out as a computer programmer in 1984. In 1985 where I worked a standard was made that all the software, in house written or purchased, had to be able to change across that date line. As did all the other places here. We were ready by 1990.

My old man figured it this way. A the money the rich and powerful have is on computers. There was no way in heck that they were going to allow the tick of a clocks second hand let all their money and power disappear.

The strange and sad one was for my brother in law. He was the head of a city water and sewer works. But the salesmen that wanted to sell the city new backup engine/generators and all new computer control system convinced that city council they had to buy all new. My BIL couldn't convince the city council that the computers in place were setup to cross the date and the engines/generators were in like new condition and had no computer controls on them. So that city, like most, spent millions of dollars.

Oh well. Just goes to prove panic and fear is easy. Thinking is at least a little work.

[Burnt Fingers]

as far as things going back to normal. I'm afraid that ship has sailed. came to this conclusion after a trip to Hodgdon reload data center where they now sell powder directly to us. 8lb jug of h4350 is currently $273.99 last jug I got at lgs less than a year ago was less than $210 out the door and that included sales tax rate of 9.25%.
I got a feeling prices are going to be much higher if inventories ever get replenished.

Hodgdon sells at full retail. Before the panic no one sold at full retail....except Bass Pro.

[uscra112]

Of course they do. Otherwise their whole distribution network would dry up and blow away.

[10-x]

Academy Sports had lots of 12 ga #8, and some odd ball rifle ammo today on the shelf. Behind the counter they had lots of 5.56, .22 Mag, and 17. 2 box limit per person per day. GT distributors had .223 TAP, LEO and Military only.

[Winger Ed.]

Hodgdon sells at full retail. Before the panic no one sold at full retail....except Bass Pro.

When manufacturers compete with their own distributors (customers); before long, they don't have wholesale distributors any more.