New to using a 'F-CLASS BR' at 50 yards...

[OS OK]

I have been running this thread... New to using a 'PEEP & GLOBE' at 50 yards... ...since last November and have been bitten by the accuracy bug in the .22lr platform. This has been a real kick in the pants 'learning curve' as I never in my 70 years have put much stock in the 'lowly .22 rifle'. In that thread I have been shooting a Savage MKII FVT bone stock except for the aftermarket stock.

Not long ago I was at my local gun shop picking up some Eley 'tenex' fodder when I discovered this little gem for sale...

https://i.imgur.com/pbpukL5.jpg

It is a 2003 CZ452 that's been totally tricked out, it has a Sightron 36X - 42mm fixed power scope with very fine cross-hairs & dot, & it has a custom barrel and chamber with a clamp-on Harrels barrel tuner at the end and included was a full brick of Eley Match ammo.
The rest is a POPPAS rest out of Texas... http://www.pappasrimfireproducts.com/index.html ...this entire rig was for sale as pictured.
I stood there trying to comprehend exactly what this is that I am looking at...it is obviously a rifle I could never have bought new and then afforded to have all the custom work done, it is way over my head all the details that make this rifle what it is.

Well....I figured that this is my opportunity to go down a new Rabbit Hole...to learn a new shooting style & dicipline...to go somewhere I've never been before.
I am an ole'retired'Fart and shoot here at my little property in the Sierras. I don't compete in any sanctioned matches or even know anything about competition, I just enjoy precision shooting and handloading & casting...been doing that since 74.

I have remodeled this rifle some to fit me, have added a stock extension, bought lower scope rings and have added a temporary 'red-neck' cheek riser till this proves out to be the correct height and then I'll build a permanent one to replace these yellow carpenters pencils I have taped onto the stock.
I have put the PAPPAS rest in storage until I can build a proper bench to use it on, a solid as a rock bench to replace this temporary folding table I use now.

https://i.imgur.com/VX3Fehj.jpg

I built a custom fit leather covered pad for the Cabellas rest to fit that forestock, until a new bench comes along this summer this will be the plan...the same as I am shooting the MKII FVT, the other pad fits the Savage fore stock and I can change them in short order.

https://i.imgur.com/kgrVNUd.jpg

I have done a little research on this 'f-class' shooting and discovered there are many ways they shoot, prone was one. Not having any experience with this particular style, I thought I'd try all the positions eventually.
Many members here have been most generous with their 'tips-n-tricks' on shooting the 'peep & globe' and I thought that perhaps I could repeat that thread with this particular style...Lord knows I have a lot ahead to learn. Learning keeps my mind young and engaged and shooting allows me a couple hours daily, 'weather permitting' of course, to escape the reality of this crazy upside down world we live in today!
Pray for our Republic boys..."were in a heap of trouble right now!"

Anyway...I thought I'd get started by learning about 'finding nodes' with that Harrels tuner. Never used one before so I watched some Y-Tube videos and read some articles and have a plan to start out. I figured I would start with the tuner set at 'zero' and work my way up through the settings to see what I can see about how this thing works.
There are so many click settings from 0 through 5 that I thought I'd start by skipping four clicks and just take a 'cursory' look at the 2 shot groups.

https://i.imgur.com/1M9OOXA.jpg

Since there are 3 click settings on each side of where we see the nodes here...I'm calling the groups where you see only 'one hole' the 'nodes' as there are two shots in that same hole. I thought I'd come back to them and shoot the settings on either side of the 'one holers' to see what would happen.
Obviously, I've never charted anything like this before outside of shooting a ladder with one of my center-fires so I will be very appreciative to anyone who would like to chime in here and help me to get off on the right foot.

As of this afternoon, this is all the progress I have made thus far (I am still shooting the 'peep & globe' MKII also and still have progress to make with that style so that thread will be running concurrently)....but with this class, I'm out here in uncharted water trying to learn as I figure these things out.
I appreciate all your commentaries and examples and encourage all of you to post pictures of what your shooting and what results your getting on your groups right here in this thread.

[1066]

That's all looking very promising. I was going to say, check if your new rifle had a custom barrel. The Cz 452 action is considered to be the better choice over the later 455 series actions as it has a proper bolt locking lug as opposed to the later action just using the bolt handle as a lug.

One thing I found with my rifle/front rest. As you, I made a custom block out of laminated cork, it looked good but I found my groups opened a little, I found the fore-end needed to be resting on something non hard. I made a flat little sandbag and inlet it into the cork block - worked very well.

When I'm setting up my tuners, I start with a pair of shots, if they are not touching I move the tuner, if they are touching I fire three more at that setting, if they look promising, make a note and move on.

I found, with the vagaries of .22 shooting, two shots through the same hole is not enough information to make any deduction, the next two could well be .5" away.

I have 2 x .22lr rifles I use for benchrest - a heavy BSA International Mk5 Martini action and Sako P94s Finnfire with a lilja match barrel. To get the best out of the BSA I use the lightest touch I can, with the Sako I hold it as tight as I can - I don't know why, it's just what works.

I'll be watching your progress with interest - I also like the idea of not using a one piece rest.

[OS OK]

Thanks 1066... I put a double layer of leather on the pad to soften the rest, if I have problems I can re-do that easy enough.

Today I am going to revisit the 'potential nodes' and the settings on each side of them & will proof any nodes I think are nodes with 5 shot groupings too.

I was very pleased to see rifling marks on a round I had chambered and extracted...

https://i.imgur.com/6eY7VSc.jpg

I am sure that one piece rest may come in useful perhaps for testing rifles where the operators input needs to be isolated but for practical everyday practice I don't think so. I just want to experience using it and that'll be enough for me. I mean, after all...how can I get all happy over a group I didn't really shoot?

[tazman]

Since I have never used a tuner, I am just spitballing here. My thought was to go to where you have two settings showing a single hole that are side by side on your chart and go halfway between them. The fact that two are close to each other may mean there is a "wider" node in that spot.
If you can find the center of a "wide" node, you would have a better chance of having a setting that worked under changing conditions.
When you have a single spot node, changes in temperature or other things may make it not work the same. Something to keep track of during your testing.

[OS OK]

I will tazman... thanks. You have a good point...

I got me a theory going about these harmonics in the barrel, I am wondering if you can plot the direction of barrel movement by the groups they leave from exiting the muzzle at a particular point of it's motion, the angle of a line between the center lines of the holes might indicate that to some extent if the shooter does his part, make it a little easier to choose which 'suspected nodes' are worth following more than others...gonna be working on that in a little while.

Be back tonight with some more information about that.

[tazman]

I will tazman... thanks. You have a good point...

I got me a theory going about these harmonics in the barrel, I am wondering if you can plot the direction of barrel movement by the groups they leave from exiting the muzzle at a particular point of it's motion, the angle of a line between the center lines of the holes might indicate that to some extent if the shooter does his part, make it a little easier to choose which 'suspected nodes' are worth following more than others...gonna be working on that in a little while.

Be back tonight with some more information about that.

Interesting concept. That will take some time and a lot of data to work out.

[303Guy]

I was thinking the same as tazman. In addition it might be an idea to test a chosen node with different ammo. You may find that one node is less sensitive to changes than another in that way. I would suggest that with other ammo, more than two shots would be needed to get a group. Just a thought.

[sigep1764]

You will find deviation in the nodes between lot numbers of the same ammo. When you find an ammo the rifle really likes, record that lot number on the ammo. If it is Eley, you can call them and buy a bunch from that particular lot. Also, SK and Wolf. SK and Wolf tend to be significantly cheaper and often shoot the same. It comes down to the diameter of the boolit and the typical greasy wax they use on the boolit. Also, the quality control of the powder load is much higher.

[OS OK]

This is no easy task... This kind of stuff can make a wreck out of a man...even on his best day.
The more you try to take the 'human error' out of something, the harder the task becomes!
I came into this tuner testing thing vastly underestimating the actual task of tuning a tuner...I've seen some 'Rabbit Holes' but this one takes the cake.

https://i.imgur.com/FFbi0Uo.jpg

- Circled 2-shot groups on the right of the Yellow Line got 5-shot tested on the left side of the YL.
- I used the 0.25-24 setting to warm the barrel and then shot all four test settings without stopping any longer than to reset the tuner to the next setting.
- I came back to the 0.5-20 setting to test it again after the barrel had cooled for 20 minutes or so...I rewarmed the barrel before the second test.
- Arrows point in the directions of the next testing...they point in the direction that I proceeded, I know...it's confusing.

The only thing, I think I convinced myself of today is that there has to be a less tedious method, a method that would economize the use of your ammo as this is only the tip of the iceberg & nowhere is it conclusive...to get anything meaningful, to get 'empirical evidence' from this, I'd have to test the 5-shot groups 5-times.
Even then it'd still have the human error in the results.

Between my 'OCD' & my under-estimation of the simplicity of this task . . . well . . . "I feel like I just went bear hunting with a switch!"

[tazman]

Perhaps you are trying to be too perfect here. I doubt you will ever find a setting that always gives bug hole groups under all circumstances.

Looking at your last target, the lines that end with the designation 0.5 and 1.0 give excellent groups clear across the line. I suggest narrowing your experiments down to those two areas for the time being. Probably near the center of each line.

Ammunition always ends up costing more than the rifle in the long term. Particularly where match grade ammunition is concerned.

[uscra112]

Ooooh, you've stepped in it now! In six months that rifle won't be good enough, and....and...and.

[OS OK]

REVELATION.... rev·​e·​la·​tion | \ ˌre-və-ˈlā-shən\
Definition of revelation

1a : an act of revealing or communicating divine truth
b : something that is revealed by God to humans

2a : an act of revealing to view or making known
b : something that is revealed especially : an enlightening or astonishing disclosure shocking revelations
c : a pleasant often enlightening surprise her talent was a revelation

I'VE BEEN 'MULLING' again, over all the various comments in this thread and the other about the 'Peep & Globe' ...for example...

dverna... I am both astounded and horrified by that many setting on the barrel tuner ... I can see thousands of rounds expended to sort out the best setting.

tazman... Perhaps you are trying to be too perfect here. I doubt you will ever find a setting that always gives bug hole groups under all circumstances.
Looking at your last target, the lines that end with the designation 0.5 and 1.0 give excellent groups clear across the line. I suggest narrowing your experiments down to those two areas for the time being. Probably near the center of each line.

uscra112... Ooooh, you've stepped in it now! :bigsmyl2:


These comments you boys make never stop rolling around in my head, especially so in the 'Peep & Globe' thread where the experimentation I did just went off the page.
Some was insignificant...some very accurate, however...since this revelation has occurred, I plan 'one last experiment' for today. Also, I need to get into the shop to make a drawing and get a picture of it so I can better explain what I am thinking and where I think I am going with this rifle.

"I'll see you'all this evening (weather permitting of course) with some 'empirical evidence' ...me thinks!" :bigsmyl2:

[OS OK]

That Theory... I have been mulling over these past few days is this...

Can we have some idea of where our barrel physically is during the time the harmonics are working their magic just as the round clears the muzzle?
Could that pair of holes in the target give us more information that we currently are getting?
(I am talking here as if the rifle were fired in a jig so that any operator error or wind wouldn't have any effect on these theorized drawings below.)
If so...then:
We might have a much better idea of how to get that barrel to the most opportune spot in that vibration for the best opportunity at getting some 'bug-hole' groups.
We do have a little control over the speed of the rounds & barrel time by selecting a projectile's velocity that best matches the barrel time - - - when that barrel is at the correct vibration/oscillation.
We can change barrel length to do that too &/or we can run a tuner to increase/decrease the length of the barrel.
I would imagine there are other things you boys can think of that'll do this for us and give us a better chance of making a really good shooter from a mediocre, mid-range or expensive platform...

Since I have never seen any video of high speed slow motion barrel motion, I can only imagine what is going on at the muzzle. Here's a couple scenarios I have been visualizing in my mind...

https://i.imgur.com/cS0qEF1.jpg

On the left side top & bottom, the drawing shows a barrel vibrating/whipping straight up and down from it's reaction of the round being fired. Whether the barrel goes in the upper or lower position first as the barrel time of the projectile plays out and the round exits the muzzle, I can only guess? As an analogy I think of holding a fishing rod and suddenly whipping up on the handle and seeing the long end staying in place as the body of the pole rises suddenly and the tip then follows. Can it be that a barrel does that from recoil? The rifle is sitting on a firm rest and the recoil must not only push back against our shoulders but the rifle barrel can also rise off the rest.

On the right side top and bottom, I imagine that barrel whipping a little off center of straight up & down...perhaps one side or the other of the barrel is hotter from direct sunlight or the cool breeze is cooling one side more than the other and this effect causes a little difference of stiffness enabling the barrel to whip in the direction of less resistance?

I study these graphs/grids I am shooting and want to try to explain why rounds will hit side by side, over and under & or side by side at an angle...or why we get 2 rounds in the same hole? Anywhere up at the extreme end of motion I see an opportunity for the rounds to hit in a single hole as the motion reverses itself (there is twice the opportunity for a single hole as the barrel travels up, stops and then reverses motion...this dwell time gives our projectiles a little more time to compensate for the extreme spreads we see on the chronograph).
In between the extremes of whipping action the barrel is traveling in one direction whether up or down and that would tend to make our rounds want to string in that same direction of motion. There must be a million combinations we could consider within all the shaded area of motion.

On the bottom, left and right side, I try to extrapolate how the rounds may look on target depending on where they leave the muzzle and where the barrel is actually at during the oscillations.


OK...enough postulation... here's the target for today...

https://i.imgur.com/VACjQm7.jpg

(the circled grids are for the warmers...the 'AD' beside that single hole was an accidental discharge so I am excluding it for consideration today)
I am trying to limit my rounds per session to 25 each day to help extend my limited ammo before reordering more.
Here I am just trying to get some quality trigger time & explore the settings on the Harrel tuner. The extra grids on the right are for exploring further any bugholes I might get to verify they are good examples of that particular setting.
Harry Tobin... suggested today that I shoot the full numbered settings with the dial set at zero, shoot the number 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 settings to get an idea of what we might see from the shortest barrel length to the longest the tuner will allow. I think that'll be the agenda for tomorrow.

The weather was great but the wind was atrocious. I did my best to avoid the strong gusts but I had to maintain a rhythm/timing so the barrel wouldn't cool off.
Yesterday I noticed how much that shooting bench (picnic folding table) was flexing when I brought my right arm back from adjusting the rest and then placing the weight of that arm under the butt stock. It was about 1/2" or more as I watched the cross hairs rise on the grid 50 yards away.
Today I carpeted a 1x16 plank to stiffen the table and that took about 80% of that flexing out...it was much better.

https://i.imgur.com/zfjpEqr.jpg

[tazman]

Those last three are seriously respectable groups, particularly given the wind. Looks like you found a node for sure.

[tazman]

Predicting how a barrel vibrates and timing the bullet exit is more hit and miss than anything. All one can really do is to stiffen the barrel, thereby shortening the length of the vibration and maybe increase the frequency of it. Not certain about that last.
The hope is, with the stiffer barrel, any movement will be minimized and the groups should be tighter because of that.

I had a 243 that shot the heavier for caliber bullets well and in the same general 2 inches at 100 yards. Usually around 1 inch groups but a different bullet would put the group center a half inch or so away from the original group.
I got hold of some light bullets and ran them really fast. They gave me a beautiful 3/8 inch group. Unfortunately, it was 5 inches to the left of all the other groups. Completely unpredictable.

[beltfed]

OS OK
Noted that throughout the above test series, looks like
on the average, you have more horizontal than vertical.
Wind, you noted on the one series,
but not noted on the other series.
Probably the table or maybe something else causing more horizontal
than vertical more often
beltfed/arnie

[OS OK]

OS OK
Noted that throughout the above test series, looks like
on the average, you have more horizontal than vertical.
Wind, you noted on the one series,
but not noted on the other series.
Probably the table or maybe something else causing more horizontal
than vertical more often
beltfed/arnie

I think you are right. That folding table does a much better job of serving up a plate of food than it does a shooting platform.
I fully intend to build a proper bench but haven't started on it yet since I need it to be transportable to longer yardages & my property is not level, I live on a ridge line so there's a lot to figure out and get right in the first try.

[Forrest r]

Hopefully you don't mind if I ask a couple question:

What is the bbl's length on your cz?
Did you test your ammo without the tuner adjusting the hold down screws torque lighter/heavier to find what torques shot the best groups?
Did you use a chronograph while testing?
Do you have more than 2 weights for your tuner?
Did you save your spent cases to compare the fp hits?

Here's what the fp hit looks like on a vostock case that was fired in my 1999 cz lux (452 action). Vostock cases are known for their hardness/being extremely had to ignite. I use them to test the bolts/fp hits on my rimfire firearms.
https://i.imgur.com/d7pKpaR.jpg

Perhaps you can take a picture of what your fp hits look like on the eley cases?

[OS OK]

Forrest r... I'll do my best to answer...

---What is the bbl's length on your cz? > It is 22.75"

---Did you test your ammo without the tuner adjusting the hold down screws torque lighter/heavier to find what torques shot the best groups? > No I haven't.

---Did you use a chronograph while testing? > No, not yet...normally I check a 10-shot string for FPS, ES, SD & Avg. both at muzzle and at the 50 yard distance in front of the target. I have done that with the various ammo's I've used in the 'Peep & Globe' thread but I just haven't gotten to it yet for this CZ.
I go out to the line each morning with tunnel vision on the daily mission of testing and such and keep forgetting to set the chrony up. I will get those numbers before I run out of this brick of Eley Match so that will add to the information in the above graph/targets.

---Do you have more than 2 weights for your tuner? > Not really, it came to me with 1 lb. of lead added to the front end of the tuner. I took it off. In fact I sorta remodeled this CZ to fit me before I even shot it...lowered the scope rings, extended the stock and added a temporary cheek riser.
(I left a letter to the previous owner at the gun shop asking him to contact me so I could ask specific questions about the build and how he was using it but he never has gotten touch with me.)

https://i.imgur.com/Lz8JkHR.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/dhdNQKA.jpg

---Did you save your spent cases to compare the fp hits?

https://i.imgur.com/LoGFC7o.jpg

[OS OK]

OS OK
Noted that throughout the above test series, looks like
on the average, you have more horizontal than vertical.
Wind, you noted on the one series,
but not noted on the other series.
Probably the table or maybe something else causing more horizontal
than vertical more often
beltfed/arnie

I was thinking about your comment this morning when I set up. I took a crank-strap and tethered the table to my little trailer I use for a carry cart. The table legs are dug into the ground to level it so it resist sliding sideways and that tether made the table feel much more firm.
Of course nothing I can do with this rig will equal a proper bench...hang in there, a proper bench is on the drawing table in my mind, I'll be getting to that soon.

Thanks for the comment, it has made a 'little' difference in my 'redneck bench'.

https://i.imgur.com/jqLZauO.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/UKrR8W7.jpg

[OS OK]

OS OK
Noted that throughout the above test series, looks like
on the average, you have more horizontal than vertical.
Wind, you noted on the one series,
but not noted on the other series.
Probably the table or maybe something else causing more horizontal
than vertical more often
beltfed/arnie

I did what I could to help the horizontal spread today with that tether I mentioned above. However with today's testing I did see some vertical stringing too.

Today's testing... was suggested by Harry Tobin... He suggested shooting the whole number increments from 1 through 5 just to see what would happen in that spread of barrel length change.
The tuner can add .500" to the barrel length total.
Each click of the tuner adds .001" to the length. (starting from minimum of course, it can also reduce bbl. length...depends where your starting and which direction you twisting the tuner and testing.

Here's the target/graph for today...

https://i.imgur.com/TWOZonL.jpg

Shooting conditions were good, that wind today didn't do anything like it did yesterday. Light gusts to 8 or 10mph but they were few and far in between.

I have 'lettered' both pages of these tests now so we can refer to any single group by giving the horizontal line they are on (letters from A to E & the vertical columns are lettered F through N.)
This way we can refer to a specific group as, for example today's warmer target as location... 'B/G' that should take all the mystery out of what we are talking about.

Here is the Pg-1 of this series...the wind of the first test was up in the top of the page...it was '0' that day. In the future the wind will be in the box where the warmer target is.

https://i.imgur.com/A97CbZa.jpg

For not ever having done this type shooting or recording such information on the targets, I know it is a bit vague...for that I apologize and will try to work out a system that'll work better on the fly.

[tazman]

Have you noticed the first warmer shot being out of the group similar to what is happening with your Savage?
I can't really see anything indicating this is happening with the targets you have posted but I may not be seeing everything.

[Harry Tobin]

Now sometimes when two old dogs talk they come up with a plan. This is what I wanted to see the whole spectrum, and from the graph of today I’d be looking at the 3 to 4 range. Now maybe try 350 and see what side of 350 you want to go. Should get you in the ball park faster.

[OS OK]

tazman... I have but it's so much closer in and touching the 1" circle 3 to 5:00. I'm not seeing a pattern like the MKII, that rifle sorta walked in to the POA using most of the 5 warmer-shots to get there.
This CZ needs only one shot and hones right into the POA on one day and the next seems to need 3 or so to get there. I can't really see a pattern yet.
Sat. 2/27, pg.2 @ A/G it threw the 2'nd shot to 10:00 and that surprised me but thinking of the gusty wind that day I have to throw that out, can't really say for sure that was the CZ or me...most likely it was me.

Harry... Here's what I am thinking...notice pg.1, in that first .100" of barrel, we see about 5 settings that are almost a perfect 'one holer'. That was skipping to every 4'th click on each revolution of the dial. So....that's 5 'possible nodes' in .025" of barrel lengthening. I think that's correct?
In the entire .500" of total adjustment we could see 20 nodes (& that by skipping .004" each setting along the way).
I don't have any idea whether there are more or less 'nodes per inch' - length increase as the barrel gets longer or not...certainly the mechanical frequency of oscillation would change for a longer or shorter barrel, just as a tuning fork changes.
I wish we had an engineer type who knows about these matters and is able to talk to us redneck types in plain English without confusing us with math formulas and such...
There must be a reason for having so many settings, I'd like to know why?
Where are we most likely to encounter wider nodes . . . on the short barrel compared to the long barrel?
All I know, or I think I know is that it must be a function of all the frequency's generated by the shot being fired and how they happen to end at the muzzle, either being a node spot or not and all that being a numerical function compared to the frequency of vibration in any specific barrel length. Or something like that, I think I just described a complex mathmatical formula that dwarfs my comprehension?

[tazman]

I am thinking your nodes, with this particular rifle, are wider than a single click. Perhaps each one covers more than 5 to 10 clicks in a single spot.
That gives you a broader range of settings where you can get excellent accuracy.
Determining the width of a node and the centermost setting shouldn't be too difficult.

I would much prefer that situation to one where a single click gives accuracy and the others do not. This would be far too susceptible to change by temperature or other conditions. With a wide node, a central setting should still give good accuracy even with subtle changes in conditions.

You can burn through all your available ammo searching for that magic single setting and have to do it all again with the next batch of ammo. Never ending cycle of frustration.

[OS OK]

tazman... Your up early today!

You can burn through all your available ammo searching for that magic single setting and have to do it all again with the next batch of ammo. Never ending cycle of frustration. I agree but so far it's been very interesting to me as I have no experience with all this stuff.

What your saying about the nodes 'width' I agree, from one end of the barrel length to the other, min. to max., I think the nodes widen. On which end of barrel length I have no idea.
I think I see a very friendly area on pg.1, @ C/J-N with very little vertical dispersion.
I think that first 5-shot test of that area looked really good too @ C/G & H.
I believe I will be miles ahead to go back there and concentrate on my skill-set of launching these pills and see if I can improve the results...my redneck shooting bench is a little more stable now so that's a plus in the right direction anyway!

[tazman]

Getting stable is always the most difficult part. Remaining stable throughout the shot is right there also. Lots of different techniques to try but only you will know which ones work for you.
It is impossible to completely remove the human from the shot. Even if you did, there are all those other variables involved(wind, temperature, sun, etc.).

[Forrest r]

Thank you for replying.

You really should consider shooting some rounds of mid-grade/your eley/etc without the tuner. Test the torques on your takedown screws. Too loose you get horizontal stringing. Too tight you get vertical stringing. You want round groups & adjust your action screws to get round groups. Record those torques (if you have a torque wrench) or mark where the take down screw slots point. This establishes a baseline to show what the rifle is capable of without the tuner. Without doing this you don't know if it's the tuner or the torques on the take down screws that is affecting the groups. You very well could have the take down screws too tight/loose and the tuner is trying to fight this.

A chronograph would be huge right now!!!. Recording every shot's velocity and highlighting every flier with a marker. Saving the brass by putting it back in a spent ammo tray and highlighting every flier on the base is a good thing. At the end of a session you look to see if all the fp hits look the same. Same depth, same even length of hit, same dent in the base of the spent shell when looking sideways. All the fp hits should be identical. Your es's with the chronograph is what your looking at. Typically eley 10x runs in the single digit to low teens for sd's and es's no higher then 20fps. The es's tell the tale but it's always good to visually inspect the cases. Both of these things can and will point out any inconsistent ignition issues if you have any.

Asked about bbl length because the shorter the bbl is the stiffer it is. The bbl tenon will also play a huge role in the harmonics/barrel whip/etc. Most br bbl's have a .750" tenon and bbl length is always subjective. You might want to try to get an impression of the chamber along with checking the twist and seeing if it's taper lapped. You might also consider pulling the bolt and looking at the end of the bbl for markings to give you an idea of what bbl it is.

Asked about the fp hits and posted a picture of what my reworked bolt fp hits look like. CZ bolts internals are rural at best and reworking them can and will cut your group sizes down.

Anyway no real help, simply asking out of curiosity. I will say that I use a harrel tuner along with a extension that has 6 weight that are different sizes/weights. The previous owner of the rifle you bought felt they needed more weight and made a home made extension out of stick on lead ww's. I also like to use 2 different lots of ammo when setting up a tuner. 1 fast and the other slow and target overlapping sweet spots.

[dverna]

"I wish we had an engineer type who knows about these matters and is able to talk to us redneck types in plain English without confusing us with math formulas and such...
There must be a reason for having so many settings, I'd like to know why?
Where are we most likely to encounter wider nodes . . . on the short barrel compared to the long barrel?
All I know, or I think I know is that it must be a function of all the frequency's generated by the shot being fired and how they happen to end at the muzzle, either being a node spot or not and all that being a numerical function compared to the frequency of vibration in any specific barrel length. Or something like that, I think I just described a complex mathmatical formula that dwarfs my comprehension?"

I am an engineer and hold a few patents...none on this subject but I use common sense a lot. And I have found many "redneck types" are plenty smart and have a lot of common sense.

Here are my opinions....
The only reason target rifles for .22 smallbore competition have long barrels is to increase precision...not accuracy. By that I mean the benefit of greater precision with a longer sighting radius is paramount when using iron sights and trumps any slight loss of accuracy due to nodes.

A short thick barrel will be less affected than a longer thinner barrel.

A difference of .025" in barrel length will not be discernable. If there is a difference, it will require thousands of shots to measure the difference. I believe there will be greater affect by adding or increasing the mass of the tuner than the impact of adding a wee bit of barrel length.

Sometimes good enough is good enough. I agree with Mr. Tobin's suggestion to test out your tuner. KISS

I would suggest playing with tuner weight if that is possible. I know there is a lead tape I have seen used on shotgun barrels but even a lead mass attached using "Goop" will work for testing. I have used Goop to attach ribs on shotguns (for testing) and it will not mar the finish and is easily removed.

One last thought....go to Rimfire Central. I suspect there are guys there who have a lot of experience with tuners on .22 rifles.

Good luck!!!

[OS OK]

Thank you for replying.

(A) You really should consider shooting some rounds of mid-grade/your eley/etc without the tuner. Test the torques on your takedown screws. Too loose you get horizontal stringing. Too tight you get vertical stringing. You want round groups & adjust your action screws to get round groups. Record those torques (if you have a torque wrench) or mark where the take down screw slots point. This establishes a baseline to show what the rifle is capable of without the tuner. Without doing this you don't know if it's the tuner or the torques on the take down screws that is affecting the groups. You very well could have the take down screws too tight/loose and the tuner is trying to fight this.

(B) A chronograph would be huge right now!!!. Recording every shot's velocity and highlighting every flier with a marker. Saving the brass by putting it back in a spent ammo tray and highlighting every flier on the base is a good thing. At the end of a session you look to see if all the fp hits look the same. Same depth, same even length of hit, same dent in the base of the spent shell when looking sideways. All the fp hits should be identical. Your es's with the chronograph is what your looking at. Typically eley 10x runs in the single digit to low teens for sd's and es's no higher then 20fps. The es's tell the tale but it's always good to visually inspect the cases. Both of these things can and will point out any inconsistent ignition issues if you have any.

(C) Asked about bbl length because the shorter the bbl is the stiffer it is. The bbl tenon will also play a huge role in the harmonics/barrel whip/etc. Most br bbl's have a .750" tenon and bbl length is always subjective. You might want to try to get an impression of the chamber along with checking the twist and seeing if it's taper lapped. You might also consider pulling the bolt and looking at the end of the bbl for markings to give you an idea of what bbl it is.

Asked about the fp hits and posted a picture of what my reworked bolt fp hits look like. CZ bolts internals are rural at best and reworking them can and will cut your group sizes down.

(D) Anyway no real help, simply asking out of curiosity. I will say that I use a harrel tuner along with a extension that has 6 weight that are different sizes/weights. The previous owner of the rifle you bought felt they needed more weight and made a home made extension out of stick on lead ww's. I also like to use 2 different lots of ammo when setting up a tuner. 1 fast and the other slow and target overlapping sweet spots.

Thank you Forrest r.... for this detailed information, regarding:

(A) When I was remodeling this rifle to fit me, I rolled her over and checked the take-down screws for tightness, just checked by hand although I do have a 1/4"-inch/pounds torque wrench. I thought about trying to estimate the torque with that wrench and I also thought about cracking her open and having a good look at the bedding.
I got one of those 'hesitant feelings' that stopped me from doing so. I can't explain why other than that feeling that stopped me. At some point I will do this but until then I need more time on this rig to get a feel for what I can do with it as she is....I have read some and watched a few videos that address this issue, but to mess with this torque & have some confidence doing so, I need to make that 'the experiment or project' somewhere downstream in this thread and get some folks to chime in with their actual 'torque values & various stocks and rifles' and then listen carefully to their stories of success & failure.
I want to assume that this previous owner has it mated up as best as he was able. Yah...I know about 'assuming'...:bigsmyl2:

(B) I think I can get this done today...

(C) I thought I might find barrel ID's on the underside when I cracked her open, I didn't realize I might find them inside the breech...thanks. Only thing I've done on this end is to chamber an Eley Match round and then extract it to see if it was going into the lands, luckily it was...

https://i.imgur.com/6eY7VSc.jpg

(D) I removed the weights carefully that came on the tuner, straightened them out carefully and saved them for future experimenting...they were fastened to the tuner with a quality double sided tape.

At times I think I overload my plate with 'to do's' and neglect good practicing by doing all the experimenting I've done, especially in the 'Peep & Globe' thread, experimenting tends to divide my attention on the bench, especially data gathering between shots. So for a while I am going to keep this thread progressing a little slower than the 'P&G' thread and get to know this rifle first. From what I've seen so far & with the limited knowledge I have in this discipline...I do think I have a wonderful shooter here.

[OS OK]

"I wish we had an engineer type who knows about these matters and is able to talk to us redneck types in plain English without confusing us with math formulas and such...
There must be a reason for having so many settings, I'd like to know why?
Where are we most likely to encounter wider nodes . . . on the short barrel compared to the long barrel?
All I know, or I think I know is that it must be a function of all the frequency's generated by the shot being fired and how they happen to end at the muzzle, either being a node spot or not and all that being a numerical function compared to the frequency of vibration in any specific barrel length. Or something like that, I think I just described a complex mathmatical formula that dwarfs my comprehension?"

I am an engineer and hold a few patents...none on this subject but I use common sense a lot. And I have found many "redneck types" are plenty smart and have a lot of common sense.

Here are my opinions....
The only reason target rifles for .22 smallbore competition have long barrels is to increase precision...not accuracy. By that I mean the benefit of greater precision with a longer sighting radius is paramount when using iron sights and trumps any slight loss of accuracy due to nodes.

A short thick barrel will be less affected than a longer thinner barrel.

(A) A difference of .025" in barrel length will not be discernable. If there is a difference, it will require thousands of shots to measure the difference. I believe there will be greater affect by adding or increasing the mass of the tuner than the impact of adding a wee bit of barrel length.

(B) Sometimes good enough is good enough. I agree with Mr. Tobin's suggestion to test out your tuner. KISS

I would suggest playing with tuner weight if that is possible. I know there is a lead tape I have seen used on shotgun barrels but even a lead mass attached using "Goop" will work for testing. I have used Goop to attach ribs on shotguns (for testing) and it will not mar the finish and is easily removed.

(C) One last thought....go to Rimfire Central. I suspect there are guys there who have a lot of experience with tuners on .22 rifles.

Good luck!!!

Thank you dverna... for this detailed information. Regarding:

(A) Until now, the only way I can relate to these harmonics (which I think may be more complex) is to look back at my education in electronics I received in the USMC via the Navy. I have been relating to these harmonics as I do 'transmission frequencies' in either 'transmission lines' or 'antennas'. Here we tune the length to null the standing wave that diminishes the transmission power output. We can also use a complex electrical tuner circuit to do this electrically too, I sorta see the barrel tuner in this light.
This may not be correct in comparing the two but it's all I had going till now.

(B) Not sure who, but one of the fellas gave me a link to this site which helped quite a bit on the 'tuning principal'.
https://newbrunswick-benchrest.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-hopewell-method-of-barrel-tuning.html

(C) Thanks for that, I've been there and have many bookmarks to refer to.

Basically, like I mentioned above...I need to get very well acquainted with this shooter and improve my skill-set before I get too deep in this rabbit hole of experimenting with her.
This is like sliding into the bucket seat of a Corvette when all I've driven my whole life is an old used pickup truck. :bigsmyl2: ...and to tell the truth, since I was 16 all I have ever had is pickup trucks.

[robg]

have you tried it without the tuner ? you never know if you dont try it.good shooting by the way.

[OS OK]

have you tried it without the tuner ? you never know if you dont try it.good shooting by the way.

Thank you. No I haven't, I did think about it but thought I was probably cutting myself short...sorta like buying a new car and telling them to leave off the cruse control.

[OS OK]

Weather permitted . . . with a caveat. Had to deal with another gusty day. It wasn't so bad though, the gusts were of short duration, gave me lots of time to get shots off without being rushed. I could hear the gusts coming in the tree tops before they hit me.

Here's the target for today...I reset the tuner to the '0.5 setting with 20 clicks'. That seemed like a good place to start since we have seen this setting do fairly well before.

https://i.imgur.com/GfNLOPV.jpg

Forrest r... Asked about chronograph readings > A chronograph would be huge right now!!!. Recording every shot's velocity and highlighting every flier with a marker.
Here's a picture of what I think you might want to see...

https://i.imgur.com/Gup50r9.jpg

> Saving the brass by putting it back in a spent ammo tray and highlighting every flier on the base is a good thing. At the end of a session you look to see if all the fp hits look the same. Same depth, same even length of hit, same dent in the base of the spent shell when looking sideways. All the fp hits should be identical.

https://i.imgur.com/JbpYGwC.jpg

These cases are stacked in the box in columns representing the first target through the last from left side to right and the top to bottom sequence is the shot sequence.
BUT...the first row, second case down got away from me and hit the ground. I thought I watched it land and picked it right up but it has a wider strike & that strike is from the MKII. Other than that, all the cases went from the chamber straight to the box without a hiccup.

Well...that about sums up today's practice, it felt good even though I was recording so much data at the same time...it wasn't that much of a distraction.
I am thinking I should repeat this practice with a '0.5-21' setting on the tuner?
Anyone agree?"
At 'A/I' above, it showed more promise with less vertical stringing.

[dtknowles]

I have never shot with a tuner, never touched one. I wonder how much a tuner would shrink group size when properly tuned? A tenth of an inch or maybe only half a tenth, 50 thou?

I know these pictures are not enough to judge the ammo or the gun, I shot them with my Savage Anschutz with a 9 power scope but you don't need a tuner to shoot half inch groups at 50 yards.

This is every group from that range session, only fouling shots excluded and they were at most one or two for each ammo and no sighters. Did not touch the sights. I am going to go dig and see if I have other pictures. My rifle will shoot close to half inch 5 shot groups at 50 yards with SK, Wolf Match and Eley TENEX most of the time and almost always keeps 10 shots well under an inch.

278797278798278799

I don't know how you can tell that the tuner is doing anything. Not saying it isn't but the idea of shooting the rifle without the tuner might be revealing. Maybe just having a tuner is what makes the difference and the adjustments don't change much. Can you move the tuner, like huge adjustment, inches instead of fractions. I was thinking. Can the anti-nodes be found, the places that are real bad, the node would be someplace between those anti-nodes.

Tim

[OS OK]

dtknowles... They told me to do a series of 2-shot groups at 50 yards at various equally spaced settings on the tuner and look for groups that were close to or touching each other horizontally. That, that would be a good indicator of being close to a node. Then shoot on both sides of one of those groups as I adjust the tuner either 'up or down' incrimentally to determine whether or not they got closer together or wider apart and/or whether it would start imprinting with a vertical spread...to stay away from vertically spaced groups.

This is the initial test grid I shot...as it turned out, there were several 'one hole' 2-shot groups in this initial test. That made it pretty easy to choose a place to start tuning from.

https://i.imgur.com/1M9OOXA.jpg

This tuner is designed very much like a micrometer...it has a total of .500" that can add to the length of the barrel.
From the 0 mark to the 1 mark the tuner increases length by .100", it has a total of 5 increments. Each increment is divided into 4 spaces of .025" inch...each of those increments gain length by .001" with each click of the tuner, with each twist from ball indent to the next. One full turn equals .025".

https://i.imgur.com/dhdNQKA.jpg

As far as saying how much a tuner can shrink groups, I can't honestly say. This is the first time I ever lay hands on one also. I am a neophyte to this F-class BR discipline and I'm learning as I go with the help from many pretty special people in this forum.


EDIT: There are a couple of links that do a great job of explaining w/diagrams & video the technical end of these tuners:
http://www.varmintal.com/amode.htm
http://www.varmintal.com/atune.htm

[Harry Tobin]

:bigsmyl2:

[Forrest r]

WOW!!! Very well done!!!

I like the groups from the .5-20 setting, very telling.

Hard to tell from the picture but you should take a hard look at the fp hits on the cases and your plotted hits/groups chart. You're looking for even consistent hits on all 5 ='s round/tight group. lite or extremely dented/hard hit ='s fliers and the high/low shots.

If you have lite hits:
Were the speeds higher or lower then the average 1080fps.
Did they hit consistently high or low on the target.

Same questions with any heavy/hard fp hits.

This is where a slower lot of ammo (+/- 1065fps) would be extremely useful. Some rifle prefer faster or slower lots of ammo. Running the same tests with a slower lot of ammo and then overlapping/comparing the results to the 1080fps lot your using would be useful in narrowing your test setting with your tuner.

I really like those groups from the .5-20 setting. Get rid of a couple fliers and you'll be ready to start hunting. Up here in ne ohio we'd put out plain bright white printing paper in the spring on the target stands @ 50yds. Attracts flies like crazy!!! As with anything moving, it's always good to lead them a little. In summer a wingding on a string was the cat's meow for flies and yellow jackets.

Anyway get rid of the fliers in the 1st and 3rd groups (2 fliers total) and you'd be on fire.

[M-Tecs]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2020/11/22-lr-smallbore-f-class-we-expect-this-sport-to-grow/

[303Guy]

One can see that the tuner has an effect by the shift of POI. Looking at Varmint Al's animation, I would be guessing that the idea is to tune the three nodes so as to self cancel.

[OS OK]

One can see that the tuner has an effect by the shift of POI. Looking at Varmint Al's animation, I would be guessing that the idea is to tune the three nodes so as to self cancel.

I think...(dangerous idea!) that the objective is to get that last node exactly at the muzzle.
Everything we do, bedding, torque on the stock screws, extra barrel supports within the stock, etc., etc., etc., ...every little trick to build a solid platform leads towards the tuner as a last resort to fine tune the location of the node, the last node on the muzzle end.
Even the pressure we put behind the stock has something to do with those vibrations going down the barrel and back. Seems there are two modes of manipulating the nodes...'tuning & dampers'...as shooters we are part of the 'dampening' effect.

THIS IS A DEEP RABBIT HOLE 303Guy! :bigsmyl2:

https://i.imgur.com/pn3mmrP.jpg

[from this article... http://www.ozfclass.com/articles/1/psm_2005_03.html ]

I've been watching & reading so much about harmonics now, I'm on overload...it'll prolly take a week to mull it all over and review different sources to get it as straight as possible in my little pea sized brain!

[dverna]

Just a general question.....

The tuner is not actually adding barrel length but positioning the mass of the device further out past the end of the barrel....is this correct?

And the effect is so sensitive that a difference of a few thousandths of a inch can be discerned.

I am having a difficult time understanding how a two shot group tells us much. I read the link posted by OS OK, and could not wrap my brain around it. Neither my ammunition or my abilities are capable of the precision needed to have any confidence in a load unless I fire multiple 5 shot groups.

[dverna]

And another tid bit I found surprising ....I will post later as I need to be on my computer to find it....

The tuner setting for optimum group size at 50 yards will not be same to get the best group at 100 yards.

[OS OK]

Just a general question.....

(A) The tuner is not actually adding barrel length but positioning the mass of the device further out past the end of the barrel....is this correct?

And the effect is so sensitive that a difference of a few thousandths of a inch can be discerned.

(B) I am having a difficult time understanding how a two shot group tells us much. I read the link posted by OS OK, and could not wrap my brain around it. Neither my ammunition or my abilities are capable of the precision needed to have any confidence in a load unless I fire multiple 5 shot groups.

(A)... It has been explained that although the tuner is not part of the barrel as far as the bore goes, it is part of the length of the barrel as the harmonics now travel out full length to the end of the tuner, reverberate/oscillate back and forth and that changes the position of the nodes...the same as shortening the barrel changes node position.
One of the guys on one of the videos explained that the harmonics travel so fast in the barrel steel that they go back and fourth several times before the projectiles exits the muzzle.

(B)... I think the two shot groups are an efficient & expedient way to gather coarse information about what that tuner will do set from one extreme to the other & help to determine where the potential nodes might be.
The author better explains this than I... from this article > http://www.targetshooter.co.uk/?p=660

...Tests were conduct with two (2) shot groups. “If two shots don’t group, three shots will not improve it.” Unfortunately, a great two-shot group DOESN’T mean that the resulting three or five shot group will be small. Hence, multiple groups must be shot to determine the average group size and variation for a given tuner setting. By shooting multiple two-shot groups at each tuner location and averaging the results, we could determine the relationship between tuner location and accuracy. To further verify this additional three (or more) shot groups could then be fired...

[tazman]

So. the two shot groups are an indicator that needs to be followed up with testing of the best settings. Makes sense. The poor two shot groups as an indicator of where not to test further also makes sense.

[tazman]

And another tid bit I found surprising ....I will post later as I need to be on my computer to find it....

The tuner setting for optimum group size at 50 yards will not be same to get the best group at 100 yards.

I would think that best group settings at 50 yards would carry over. Using the same ammunition and rifle, the nodes would still be in the same place hence best accuracy would occur regardless of the distance shot.
What am I missing?

[303Guy]

I would think that best group settings at 50 yards would carry over. Using the same ammunition and rifle, the nodes would still be in the same place hence best accuracy would occur regardless of the distance shot.
What am I missing?

This is what I would have thought too.

OS, that refines what I was guessing at. I was thinking the best one could hope for would be to get the muzzle parallel to the axis at point of exit. I didn't think it would possible to actually shift the node to the muzzle.

[OS OK]

And another tid bit I found surprising ....I will post later as I need to be on my computer to find it....

The tuner setting for optimum group size at 50 yards will not be same to get the best group at 100 yards.

That sounds strange and somewhere I've heard that before but it went in one ear and out the other. I think my mind was on another aspect of harmonics and that information didn't register. Glad you brought it up, if it is valid...I'd sure like to understand why?

Tuesday's Target... A great day for precision shooting with the wind out of the North & being mostly blocked by the house and trees, the 3 mph light breeze I think, had no affect.
Errr.....at least I can't use the wind for an excuse!

https://i.imgur.com/AaWraFP.jpg

The bottom line... I think I see more open groups, more vertical dispersion too?
I was surprised to see the first warmer shot hit at 12 and then the next 4 shots drop in the same hole under that, I still don't know what to make of that other than the warmer shots are strictly random until we get a substantial layer of wax laid in the bore for the day?

I think for today I will look at the '0.5-19' setting and the '0.5-18' after that next?
Unless someone has a better idea?

"A thought that keeps surfacing...maybe I am within a click or two of a node right now? I keep expecting to see one neat and clean 1-hole target repeated at least several times in the 4 ea. 5-shot group tests? Am I seeing the best that the 'Eley-Match' can do? That I can't answer as this is the first time I have shot it. Does anyone have experience with this ammo and have any examples to show? This 'Eley-Match' is not their top of the line ammo."

[Forrest r]

This is what my harrel tuner looks like with the weight kit.
https://i.imgur.com/FGC4tW0.jpg

There are 3 different steel weights and 3 different aluminum weights, 6 oz total.

The tuner was being used a kimber 82g that had a 25" bbl using ammo from a case of lapua midus-m/1065fps.

In 2006 tuners seemed interesting and I wanted to see what they were capable of. I had 2 winchester 52'd and a remington 40x/700 action. I knew how these shot so I bought a kimber 82g from the cmp to use as a test bed. The 82g got whooped up on pretty good strait out of the box. It did better after pillar's were installed along with a bedding job. The bolt was also re-worked and the trigger group. The kimber shot better after the work but still couldn't compete with the 40x's or 52d's.

Put the tuner on that 82g and got it dialed in. After that the 52d's and 40x's had all they could handle.

Ended up selling the kimber, 1 of the 52d's and the rem 40x/700 action and bought a NIB 1600 series anschutz 54 match. The 54/1600 series had the x-barrels on them.
https://i.imgur.com/XxOkB1G.jpg

I didn't want a custom rifle or build a custom so I bought the anschutz to play around with for 50yd br with the tuner along with using it for 4p.

Ended up liking sporter 22lr's more so I sold a remington 40x/722 action I picked up just for the heck of it and the other 52'd. Still have the anschuz/1600 series and it still sits around with the original oil from the factory on it/still NIB, unfired.

I still keep up to date with tuners/rifles/the br crowd. They have a pretty good following at a local club I'm a member of and enjoy talking with the people shooting the 50yd br with their tuners/customs/etc. They have monthly shoots along with holding the state shoot at that club.

Big $$$ in ammo & iron

[OS OK]

Very impressive stuff there Forrest r... This rig I bought looks dated a bit, I wonder if that Harrels tuner I have is one of their early models before they incorporated variable weights to it?

What kind of a front rest does that rifle in picture sit on? I don't recognize the stuff bolted on the bottom of the forestock.

[Forrest r]

That is an aftermarket set of weights. Google harrel tuner and you'll find different websites that sell them.

That "front rest" is an adjustable hand rest for shooting offhand.
https://i.imgur.com/q5JW7Rf.jpg

It's important to shoot over a chronograph, fast ammo should hit high and slow ammo low. If you're seeing a mix of high hits with slow shots you don't have the tuner set correctly. Or the given weight of the tuner is not enough to correctly tune the bbl.

It's a 4p rifle (4 position/prone, kneeling, sitting, offhand/standing) with adjustable front palm rest, adjustable trigger, adjustable palm rest/cheek rest/length of pull & an adjustable offhand butt hook.

[dtknowles]

I made a composite picture of your latest range session. It is photoshop magic but it is not fake. That is what your shooting would have looked like if you did not change your POA between 5 shot groups.

I think it is impressive. I don't really know what would be the standard by which to judge but I am thinking you might be limited by the ammo's ability. You are using ammo right out of the box with no sorting or sizing, right?

278904

I am guessing that is a one inch circle and the 20 shot group is under a half inch.

Tim

[OS OK]

I made a composite picture of your latest range session. It is photoshop magic but it is not fake. That is what your shooting would have looked like if you did not change your POA between 5 shot groups.

I think it is impressive. I don't really know what would be the standard by which to judge but I am thinking you might be limited by the ammo's ability. You are using ammo right out of the box with no sorting or sizing, right?

278904

I am guessing that is a one inch circle and the 20 shot group is under a half inch.

Tim

WOW...dtknowles... I never thought about looking at the composite of a day's shooting like that. Crazy how we men look at things and each takes something different away from the same observation.
Those 5 shot groups are deceiving, all on their own standing. That shows us instantly what that barrel is doing when the projectile exits the muzzle.

Yes, it's Eley Match & it's right from the box & yes, it's a 1" circle.
In my other thread of the 'Peep & Globe' I spent much time sorting in several different ways and didn't really want to repeat that exercise here with this rifle...thought I'd let the rifle & ammo stand on their own working together and concentrate on learning to use the tuner efficiently.
Harry Tobin earlier today sent an e-mail asking the same thing...is that Eley Match doing all it can?
Thank you for doing that Tim...you have opened my eyes and given me much to mull on.

I have but one more test to do tomorrow before I decide to move over to the Eley tenex and start over with that...
Here's today's shooting of the '0.5-19' tuner setting.
Of all the days you might think the wind had something to do with the groups, this is the day...however the wind was calm...perfect day for shooting & I think I've gone too far from a possible node at the '0.5-20' setting, I want to see the '0.5-22' groups tomorrow and most likely that'll be the end of the Eley Match for a while?

https://i.imgur.com/Fhz5B3Q.jpg

Seeing the warmer spot (the circled one) I almost said "forget this" as that was a most unusual start, especially compared to yesterday where the cold barrel first shot was almost in the same hole as the rest? Still haven't figured that one out.
Anyway, I finished what I started and I think that I'm moving away from a node in this direction...

Let me say again, if I haven't lately...but..."I so appreciate everyone's help in this thread, helping me as a shooter develope proper skills and all the examples/suggestions & questions posed...I think multiple brains connected are so much more powerful than just the one."

[tazman]

dtknowles--That composite was an excellent idea. It gives a great idea of what he is doing currently.

OS OK---- I think running some tenex through the rifle is a good idea. I would start with the node setting that is working best for the MATCH.
I am also not certain you will se much improvement. Possibly a little but not a great change.
I found Tenex to be better than the other ammo I have been trying but not by a large amount. Enough to use Tenex for matches and use the other ammo I have for practice.
If you look at the target I use for competition 278940, you can see the scoring areas. When I used Tenex, I shot a 2450.
When I used a cheaper brand, I shot between 2250 and 2350. Not really much difference in group size or score for that matter. Just a couple of bullets cutting through a line instead of just touching it. We are talking less than a 16th of an inch in group size.
Not really noticeable unless you are scoring.

[OS OK]

dtknowles--That composite was an excellent idea. It gives a great idea of what he is doing currently.

OS OK---- I think running some tenex through the rifle is a good idea. **I would start with the node setting that is working best for the MATCH.
I am also not certain you will se much improvement. Possibly a little but not a great change.
I found Tenex to be better than the other ammo I have been trying but not by a large amount. Enough to use Tenex for matches and use the other ammo I have for practice.
If you look at the target I use for competition 278940, you can see the scoring areas. When I used Tenex, I shot a 2450.
When I used a cheaper brand, I shot between 2250 and 2350. Not really much difference in group size or score for that matter. Just a couple of bullets cutting through a line instead of just touching it. We are talking less than a 16th of an inch in group size.
Not really noticeable unless you are scoring.

**That is exactly my thought too ... This go-round, I'll get the chrono numbers at the same time & we can see whatever the difference is between speeds and compare the groups.

What size are those circles in your target tazman ?

[tazman]

13/16" outside to outside of the thick inner circle. 3/4" inside diameter.
The unlimited target is 1/2" outside to outside of the thick inner ring.
Touching the color outside the ring counts the lower score on both targets.

[Forrest r]

FWIW:

I truly believe this is something that OS OK can sink his teeth into. Tuners are down right fun as is have a quality firearm to shoot the rimfire ammo in. If you get this rifle dialed in you'll open doors that will take your knowledge of rimfire ammo to the next level.

That being said, I'm not being critical of what anyone is doing. Simply have a little bit of experience with rimfires in general along with being lucky enough to own a couple quality rimfire firearms. Spent a little $$$ on cases of ammo over a couple decades to feed them. Along with doing just enough reading/testing to be dangerous, be a legend in my own mind.

What I'm seeing:
A custom rifle that was built/designed to hold/hit .4" bulls @ 50yds and 1" bulls @ 100yds. FWIW, that anschutz I posted pictures above was designed for the same thing. Average anschutz 54 actioned target rifles will hold in the .4",s all day long. The better annies will do .3"'s. This is without a tuner.

Long winded story:
Back in 2006 I decided to do testing with a tuner, ordered 10/12 different lots of the same ammo (sk standard +) and tested them over a chronograph with a rifle that was a known performer. Never even bothered putting a target up, just the chronograph. Ended up finding a lot that had a es in the low teens and a es of 22fps/24fps (???? can't remember but it was in the low 20's) for the 50 shot box. Ordered a case of it for testing/dialing in firearms. At the same time sportsman's guide was getting in a bunch of russian 22lr ammo. Over on rimfirecenteral they were buying it and telling people how it preformed, 1 of them was the Vostok ammo. A bunch of people bought it and complained about lite fp hits and terrible accuracy. I ordered 2 cases of it ($80 a case?) because I wanted to test the fp hits on firearms with it along with owning 2 different russian olympic pistols (25m & 50m) that have no problem eating the Vostok like it was potato chips.

That must of been 1 heck of a case of sk standard+ because I'm getting the same es's and sd's with it as you're getting with eley 10x.

1st thing I did was test every rimfire firearm I owned that I used for competitions with that vostok ammo. Any issues with lite fp hits was corrected. And make no mistake about it, there were issues with several firearms. Started learning something from this.

Got the kimber 82g and the tuner and the 1st thing I did was work on the trigger. Got it as good as the design would allow (others drilled new pivot holes for the trigger pin) without modifying the trigger group. From there I grabbed that sk+ test ammo and the chronograph and found out real fast the bolt/fp was trash. Ended up reworking the bolt & fp along with installing a new power custom spring (they just put them out) and life was good, sd's in the low teens and es's every now and then in the low 20's. Finely put a target up and went to work zeroing the scope (use burris sII 36x dots for everything, 4 of them) and working the new aftermarket allen wrench hold down screws. When the groups got tight and round and did a series of groups (50yd 5-shot) to use as a baseline. Then I put the tuner on and dialed it in. It would shoot in the .3"'s (4 5-shot groups) with eley black box.

Same sk+ & Vostok ammo, this time I wanted to work on a CZ lux (1999/452 action). Same drill starting with the trigger. Then the bolt & finely accuracy. The trigger was the easy part, the bolt. Not so much!!! Machine marks everywhere, fp was out of round & the fp tip stuck out of the bolt face wayyyyy too long. Ended up doing a bunch of work on the bolt and internals including re-shaping the fp. The fp hits on your cz are the long traditional rectangular hits, my cz has a small round footprint that staying inside the edge of the rim.
https://i.imgur.com/d7pKpaR.jpg

After getting that CZ's bolt/fp to hit consistently I put an old lyman 20x all-american on it because the CZ lux has a hogsback stock and a schwebel forend. The lyman scope is a long bodied scope that just cleared the rear sight and the 36mm bell allowed me to use lower rings. Put a set of aftermarket allen wrench hold down screws on and worked the torques until I got round groups. The groups were round but not tight like they should be. Looked at the chamber and found tooling marks on the leade so I touched the chamber up and the groups tightened up after that. Typical 5-shot groups @ 25yds
https://i.imgur.com/8p6hLgR.jpg

Note that the top groups are open compared to the bottom groups. That's due to the wrong insert (towel) in the front rest trying to hold the schwebel front end still. This created different hold/pressure on the rear/stock when changing elevations when I moved the rear bag instead of the front rest. After getting that CZ lux dialed in I decided to take it to the 50yd line to do targets for a game on rimfirecenteral called the 10mm shoot. Where the shooter tried to shoot 4 5-shot groups on the same target that averaged 10mm. So I upped the quality of ammo sk pistol match and hit the range.
https://i.imgur.com/aYyj8NG.jpg

Here we go again, change elevation by moving the rear bag and it shows up on the target. Anyway I'm putting this out there because we are both using cz 452 actioned rifles. The difference between the 2:
bbl's you have a custom bull I have a 24" pencil bbl
scope you have a 40mm 36x target dot I have a 36mm 20x crosshair
stock you have a br stock I have a hogs backed schwebel forend sporter stock
ammo You are using eley 10x I am using 1/3rd the $$$ sk pistol match
rest you use a 1 piece rest with a front rest shaped to your br stock I use a front rest with a towel and a sand bag for the rear
The triggers should be even, only so much that can be done to them.

As you can see were pretty much even rifle/rest wise

The biggest difference is you're using a tuner and I have a re-worked bolt. If you take that overlay of your 5 5-shot groups and up it over the 4 5-shot groups I did. You will see there isn't much difference.

https://youtu.be/hfd1Qsza4rc
Yes this is a center fire rifle, but rimfire and centerfire 's are both affected by the vibration of the fp hit.

You might consider using your google-fu and look up turbo actions and firing pin fall. Along with consistent ignition with rimfire ammo.

Anyway just my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth (nothing), just want you to do well.

[OS OK]

OMG Forrest r... I can't tell you how much I appreciate information like this being a Neophyte in this arena...(Even if you did just dig my RABBIT'HOLE about 30 foot deeper!)
I will have to search out some of the terms you use to describe your experience & equipment to fully understand the weight in this posting. I will have to cypher all those measurements on your targets to understand the meaning of the computations...as you have seen, I am only capable of measuring with a steel rule & have only been looking at the spread of the group alone...I don't understand all the computations involved in competition.

Until today the CZ has had only Eley Match in the bore...there's one last test with that at the '0.5-22' setting and then I'll swap over to the Eley tenex for a comparison of one of the better groupings/tuner settings with the Match. Then it'll be a better organized look & testing of the tenex in this CZ.
First off I'll get a comparison of the numbers from the chrony as I did here...

https://i.imgur.com/LbABUSf.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Gup50r9.jpg

As you can see, the first column of numbers come from the warmer 5-shot group & the very first cold barrel shot was the highest of all the columns, I can't explain that but think it may be from a cold & non lubed barrel (or a barrel lubed from the day before and it changes lubricity overnight?)...I haven't a clue as of yet....?

Many of the things about the mechanical work you have done, I am not capable of & since I haven't heard from the previous owner about all the particulars of this CZ build, all that sorta manipulation of the platform is on hold.

Thanks again Forrest r ... you have my mind a'buzzin!

[Forrest r]

Forgot to toss in there the pillar bedding while working on the bolts.

The #'s are what they like to do over on rimfirecenteral. Shoot groups and measure the outside measurements. Then take 4 shots and measure the holes + fouling marks on the paper. Add those 4 shots together and divide by 4 to get a bullet hole #. Typically a 22lr bullet will leave a +/- .204" hole+ marks on a target. Subtract .204" from the outside to outside measurement of the group to get the actual hole size the bullets made in the target.

Myself I like plain old outside to outside measurements. When I say a rifle shot in the .3"'s that means the outside to outside measurement of the 5-shot groups were .3xx" or less. When keeping score on bullseye targets I always like a rimfire firearm that could keep groups smaller then the x-ring/10-ring.

At the end of the day, those are the firearms that win. It could be argued that the bull is .4" on a f-class 50m target add .204" + .204" to that. The bullet only need to touch the line and you get .808" with the bull + touching @ 12 o-clock & 6 o-clock (etc). Anyone with a 10-22 and a box of wal-mart bulk pack can shoot .8" groups @ 50m. But for some odd reason they don't do very well when they start keeping score.

You're close, real close with your setup. Without the fliers you'd be running in the low .4's/high .3's. The 1st shot fliers could be a lot of things including the receiver re-settling in bedding. Bbl on a little to tight.

My $$$ is on the fp either sticking or a combo of being gummed up with fouling and too much oil/grease. I understand that the chronograph #'s you wrote down really isn't a lot to go by, wish you would of been doing them all along. Everyone sees something different, I see that except for the 4th set of numbers the pretty much increased in velocity as the shots progressed. Is that the extreme high shot is next to the extreme low shot for 1, 2 ,3 (actually 1fps difference in the highest #) & 5.

You might consider stripping the bolt down and giving it a good cleaning along with taking a black marker and coloring the fp to see where it rides/rubs. Myself I like to use this on all my bolts, sears, trigger groups.
https://www.bing.com/aclk?ld=e8N3OhwasqACwdaz07We1ODzVUCUyX2cg2wAxCdh6N gSyAMKm0qzDkSKH--zBWdoToXPZvtvVATRn0BPKKxgGQFhO81qbCGUwC4IIaxQ9aw0k vnWl1wEEW-i38awuGkgNeSxmcJiCedaFDB7b9dK3cqC-uZxbN_Bp47AEBnvKQXw7oWm-8UiM7erfRF5giyjsMhIYypQ&u=aHR0cCUzYSUyZiUyZnd3dy53YWxtYXJ0LmNvbSUyZmlwJTJm MzQzNTgzNDglM2Z3bWxzcGFydG5lciUzZHdtdGxhYnMlMjZhZG lkJTNkMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIwMjI3NDI2MjglMjZ3bWxzcGFydG5l ciUzZHdtdGxhYnMlMjZ3bDAlM2RlJTI2d2wxJTNkbyUyNndsMi UzZGMlMjZ3bDMlM2QxMDM1OTU2MzM2NSUyNndsNCUzZHBsYS00 NTc4MDkxNTU0NDA4MDQxJTI2d2w1JTNkJTI2d2w2JTNkJTI2d2 w3JTNkJTI2K3dsMTAlM2RXYWxtYXJ0JTI2d2wxMiUzZDM0MzU4 MzQ4XzEwMDAwMDAwOTkxJTI2d2wxNCUzZHdheCUyNTIwYmljeW NsZSUyNTIwY2hhaW4lMjUyMGx1YmUlMjZ2ZWglM2RzZW0lMjZt c2Nsa2lkJTNkYzY1NWFlMzJmMGQwMTFmNTQ3NWNjZTczYWJiYm U3NWQ&rlid=c655ae32f0d011f5475cce73abbbe75d

I really hope you get it sorted out. A quality rifle like that combined with a tuner is a blast when everything is dialed in. Played around with a lot of bulk pack blammo ammo with that kimber/tuner combo. Way too much fun!!! Everything you stuff in your rifle doesn't have to be high $$$ ammo.

[OS OK]

Forrest r... Thanks for the explanations, I appreciate that & the tips for the lube and the fp assy.
I remembered you mentioning the bolt face being smoothed from machine marks on your platforms so I had a look this morning and found that mine looks like the machine marks have been sanded smooth, still can see where they were raised but they're smooth.

https://i.imgur.com/rFqaqkq.jpg

Amazing how dirty these rifles can get, I never notice using them everyday outside and storing them under a towel in the wood shop, this looks a mess up close like this. Oh well...I'm not a neat freak/clean freak heheee, you ought'a see my truck, getting too old to worry about such things. :bigsmyl2:

As far as measurements go, I don't think we need them in this thread unless someone is curious and they have a program to measure with and they can measure for themselves...we can see a good group and a not so good and so on, nobody's getting no trophies in this thread.

About today's work... I've changed the shots from horizontal to vertical to use more of the grids before having to make a new page.

Here is the last set of Eley Match rounds compared to the first set of the Eley tenex, both shot at the same tuner setting. Just wanted to compare apples to apples as far as the speed of the round is concerned.
There is an average of 10.4 fps difference between the two, the tenex is that much faster & quite a difference in groups considering only that minimal average fps difference. Just imagine what that difference in fps between shots must be doing within the same groups, same ammo. It's like Forrest r points out in the shot strings & shot placement, it doesn't always correlate in high and low hits...I think it all depends on where that muzzle is pointing at that instant when the round exits, not only does the tuner tune the barrel but we as shooters are part of that tuning as we are part of the dampening of the rifle by the way we embrace the rifle too.
How the heck do we figure out where the muzzle is, whether it's in a vertical or horizontal part of it's oscillation? I can't answer that?

https://i.imgur.com/6IcOTpL.jpg

I think I see the E. Match opening up compared to the '0.5-20' setting from the other day.
I think I see a better lot of ammo in the cheaper Eley Match also, it being $14.50 box compared to Eley tenex at $18.50 ... Forrest r, I think your right about performance of less expensive ammo. What's the difference in the quality of our practice we get shooting either one so long as we are squeezing the best from whatever ammo we use? After all, we have to do our parts behind the stock to make any ammo perform at is it's best.

Notice the group @ C/G ... notice the two left separated a little bit by the 3 right hits. I was watching the chrono as these rounds were fired, the first shot landed extreme right, next two shots landed extreme left & together, then the last two shots land with the first one. If you look at the chrony recordings you'll see that the two left are at 1092 fps and the three right are at 1085, 1084 & 1084 fps. I thought that was something notable...what it exactly means I'm not sure yet? I'm just paying attention to the little details so hopefully all this work will pay dividends one day in my understanding this mystery of the .22lr's.

https://i.imgur.com/mfYsFMq.jpg

I've been noticing lately how loading a few pounds of pressure against the butt of the rifle can make the group open slightly if that pressure is not going into the butt straight with the LOS, pushing slightly & straight towards the target...if I'm correcting the cross-hairs for even a smidge of windage using my shoulder, I don't get better groups & the rifle shows some sideways deflection in the scope as it's fired. I have to be aware of 'not adding windage' with my shoulder, have to relax that push and see that the cross-hairs are lined up vertically instead before loading those couple pounds of pressure.

[Forrest r]

I think you found your calling.

You really need to get some ammo in the 1060's/1070's. Most rifles prefer ammo in these speeds.

The machine marks I'm talking about are not only on the bolt face. They are on the inside of the bolt body/fp cavity & on the fp itself. There were soooooo many machine marks on both it was called "hip hop don't stop" every time I pulled the trigger.

You really should take the bolt down and give it a good cleaning along with looking for wear and putting a marker on it to check uneven wear.

1st shot flier:
More often then not it's a bolt/fp issue. This is why it's important to get the bolt right and tight. Getting the bolt dialed in doesn't hurt accuracy either. After re-working the bolt on that cz luz my groups shrank +/- 40%.
Once you rule out the bolt isn't causing those 1st shot fliers (typically vertical slop/movement) you should take a piece of rubber from an innertube or 3/8" wide rubber band and cut strips 1" long and 3/8" wide. Put them in the stock at the end of the forearm/front end of the stock and tighten your hold down screws to the normal torque setting. If the 1st shot fliers go away you have a bedding issue.
If you think is a lube/fouling issue take a dry patch to the chamber/leade area in the bbl and clean that area and test. If the 1st shot fliers go away or are decreases by doing this get jb bore paste and use it every time you take the rifle out on a patch to the chamber/leade of the bbl. Re-test without cleaning every now and then, after enough polishing with the jb bore paste the 1st shot fliers will go away if this is what's causing them.

A $10 inspection camera from e-bay that works with a cellphone is $$$ well spent. This area of the bbl is where the game is won or lost. A little peak at it every now and then doesn't hurt.
https://i.imgur.com/st4tMS0.jpg?1

If you try all of those things above and you still get 1st shot fliers give the whole bbl a good cleaning. A stripped down bbl typically takes 1 shot per inch of bbl to re-season it. Better highly polished/lapped bbl's take +/- 2" per shot to season the bbl. After cleaning the bbl you still get 1st shot fliers that' telling you the bbl wasn't installed correctly (typically too tight).

If you do decide to take the bolt apart please post some pictures.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to your testing.

[dverna]

http://varmintal.com/a22lr.htm

Here is the link I promised a couple of days ago wrt barrel tuner settings and why the settings are different at 50 and 100 yards. You need to get close to the end to see the graph. See section "Tuning and Distance"

Likely TMI but I found it interesting.

I am a KISS person and not shooting to win pickup trucks...so much of this is not too practical for my pedestrian needs. I certainly would not invest in threading a barrel, and add a $200 tuner to shrink groups by .25" at 50 yards on a plinking or squirrel rifle. But I find it all very interesting none the less to see what can be accomplished.

I need to be careful though. I started looking at adding a tuner to my .308 (already threaded) that is shooting MOA when it hit me....what difference will shooting 1/2 MOA make in the field shooting Bambi? Like OS OK says...easy to go down the rabbit hole!!!

BTW, love your threads OS OK.

[OS OK]

You may have diagnosed that 1'st shot cold barrel flier.
Since shooting much Aguila in the Peep & Globe thread, I have had to be habitual about cleaning that chamber each morning because that lube on the Aguila really gums things up, so much so that the extractor has pulled loose from a fired rim a time-r-two and I had to dig them free with a small flat blade screwdriver.

https://i.imgur.com/l2sUwNL.jpg

I put a few drops of Hoppes on one of these barrel mops give it a good cleaning, clean the mop on a rag & go back in to dry the chamber a few swipes and call'er good to start the day.

I've been doing that with the CZ also just out of morning habit ritual...I bet wetting the lead and first little bit of the bore just may be the culprit.
We have marveled at how that first shot is mostly in the same general area with the MKII. I really haven't cared much about where those first 5 warmers go so long as they prep the barrel for the days work.

EDIT: Thanks dverna... for that link and the very kind words!

[OS OK]

Yesterday revealed a few 'clues' about some things . . .

I haven't used this PAPPAS rest since I brought it home with the CZ, just set it aside for a day when I had a decent bench to use it on...
But, I had a thought about seeing what it might do for comparing groups.
We just saw the '0.5-22' tuner setting with the Eley Match & Eley tenex & we have already seen the grouping of the '0.5-20' setting...I thought why not see how much better this rest might show us if we are actually near a node?

https://i.imgur.com/iXTl9qb.jpg

I added a 25 pound ingot of range scrap to the aprox. 30 pound rest also before going at the groups.
I also made the cheek riser and installed it since I have been happy with the height of the two carpenters pencils I used temporarily.

https://i.imgur.com/96SENSc.jpg

Also made a piece for the bottom of the stock to ride that 'V notch' butt support on the rear of the rest...

Here's where I got a 'clue' about a couple of things...

https://i.imgur.com/ZrswEXM.jpg

It appears that the groups have 'opened' even more. I didn't expect that since this rest takes a large percentage of the 'operator error' out of the group size...."err . . . at least I thought it was suppose to do that?"

Later...sitting in the shop & slugging a couple brews I studied these groups over and over till I was getting cross-eyed. Why the heck are those groups like that?
Then it occurred to me that we not only affect the group size by the tuner setting but also the amount of 'buffering' we induce into the test, either by our embracing the stock or by the 'padding' of the front rest. We just talked about that the other day.

https://i.imgur.com/kgrVNUd.jpg

This PAPPAS rest has no padding, it is a hard seat here on the front...that 'foot' of the bottom of the forestock actually is spring loaded into the rest, it's tight and firm.

https://i.imgur.com/KqWNUZm.jpg

I think this just may well be the reason that the CZ came with a 'full pound' of added weight to the tuner?

https://i.imgur.com/jTWXR5h.jpg

Perhaps he was trying to get that muzzle to stay put & not move while the several pressure waves traveled the length of the barrel & back before the projectile actually cleared the muzzle?

Correct me if I'm 'wrong thinking' ... but ... that PAPPAS rest is like adding even more steel to the mass of the barrel and giving the pressure waves even more paths to travel & resonate & reflect from. Unnecessarily complicating the issues.
I think it needs to be padded with a thin covering of high density rubber foam in that front clamp assembly & even at the rear under the butt stock?

However I am not concerned with this other than asking myself 'questions of why this and that' about nodes.
It was interesting using the rest for the first time, it dials windage & elevation easily & precise but it also takes my job away from the process and besides exploring these 'Rabbit Holes' with all these experiments, I'm out there to develop a good & repeatable skill set launching projectiles.

[dverna]

The front rest should not used to try to hold the muzzle from moving during recoil. If that was the intent, instead of those half circle spring loaded pieces on the front support cradle, they would be tapered pins that meshed with tapered holes in the fore end. IMO, you want very light spring pressure to on those half circle pieces to hold the stock in the same left to right spot but not enough pressure to "clamp" the fore end. But frankly, I am just guessing.

[Forrest r]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-AYV1CB0bw

[dverna]

I just checked the price of that rest....WOW!!!

Looks like I will be using by old Caldwell unless I win the lottery,

[OS OK]

The front rest should not used to try to hold the muzzle from moving during recoil. If that was the intent, instead of those half circle spring loaded pieces on the front support cradle, they would be tapered pins that meshed with tapered holes in the fore end. IMO, you want very light spring pressure to on those half circle pieces to hold the stock in the same left to right spot but not enough pressure to "clamp" the fore end. But frankly, I am just guessing.

No, it doesn't do that. Maybe my description gave you that idea...sorry.
It is spring loaded and firmly held that's all, no side to side slack or wiggle & it slides back from the forestock stop very smoothly on those spring loaded points.

[OS OK]

I made a composite picture of your latest range session. It is photoshop magic but it is not fake. That is what your shooting would have looked like if you did not change your POA between 5 shot groups.

I think it is impressive. I don't really know what would be the standard by which to judge but I am thinking you might be limited by the ammo's ability. You are using ammo right out of the box with no sorting or sizing, right?

278904

I am guessing that is a one inch circle and the 20 shot group is under a half inch.

Tim

Since you posted this composite picture I have started thinking that this would be a good way to look at these 5-shot test overlapped on each other to reflect the overall 'hole of the matter'. An excellent way to look at all the test in that string of 5-shot groups.

I've been looking for a 'free' program for the Mac where I can do this in the future but being a computer dinosaur I am at a loss of what to do.
Could you briefly go over your program & what you did to do this?

I sure would appreciate the help Tim.

[dtknowles]

Since you posted this composite picture I have started thinking that this would be a good way to look at these 5-shot test overlapped on each other to reflect the overall 'hole of the matter'. An excellent way to look at all the test in that string of 5-shot groups.

I've been looking for a 'free' program for the Mac where I can do this in the future but being a computer dinosaur I am at a loss of what to do.
Could you briefly go over your program & what you did to do this?

I sure would appreciate the help Tim.

I use Microsoft Paint.

I erase the areas that I don't want to over write the base then I turn on transparency under the select pull down.

279147

I select and copy the areas that I want to superimpose using either rectangular or freeform selecting and paste them on the first group. The alignment is easy since your POA is a crosshair I keep a bit of cross hair not the center but some of at least two limbs.

I have also done this by tracing on paper like you did. I use pins with one in the center for alignment. You can align individual shots into groups turn 5 shot groups into shot groups. One thing I learned was that often one or two wild shots or fliers will often define group size. Shooting for score they don't hurt as bad.

279148

PM me if you need more coaching on using Paint.

Tim

[tazman]

Thanks for posting that. I am going to use that idea in the near future.

[OS OK]

I use Microsoft Paint.

I erase the areas that I don't want to over write the base then I turn on transparency under the select pull down.

279147

I select and copy the areas that I want to superimpose using either rectangular or freeform selecting and paste them on the first group. The alignment is easy since your POA is a crosshair I keep a bit of cross hair not the center but some of at least two limbs.

I have also done this by tracing on paper like you did. I use pins with one in the center for alignment. You can align individual shots into groups turn 5 shot groups into shot groups. One thing I learned was that often one or two wild shots or fliers will often define group size. Shooting for score they don't hurt as bad.

279148

PM me if you need more coaching on using Paint.

Tim

Thank you very much for the explanation Tim... all I need now is to get my Daughter in Atlanta to come home and find the right Mac program, install it and teach the Daddy!

[tazman]

I don't know Mac computers. That said, I can't think there isn't a comparable program already installed on the Mac.
The Paint program comes with Windows. It is not a third party program you need to pay for.
It has been supplied with Windows since the very early days.

[Harry Tobin]

I found this for MAC , Cocoa-based paint program similar to Microsoft Paint and MacPaint. Don't know if this will be what you need but it's free. Here's the link

https://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/25050/paintbrush

[OS OK]

Thanks Harry... I've found several free apps also. Even spent the time for a few online tutorials but when I sign into the 'App/store' the dang 'sign-in window thing just sits there with that dad-blamed circle going round and round, does that for hours...locks up the entire store app. on a tab & I can't even close it.
I got so mad, I unplugged the computer twice in a row...I didn't fall for it a third time!

Looks like what I'd like to do and what I'll actually do about this is two different things. Too bad...I think this is a genius way of examining several 5-shot groupings to see a bigger and more complete picture!

GOD . . . I HATE COMPUTERS!

[tazman]

We had a day of sunshine with temps in the 60s today, so I went to the range with my CZ MTR to give it a spring workout.
I should have paid attention to the wind instead of the temperature. 15 mph and gusting from the side.
Really tough shooting conditions.
Besides that, I had a brain hiccup and didn't take my best ammo with me.
Probably just as well since it was so windy.
I was hoping to have some good results to show but it was not to be.
I did get some good trigger time and some sun, so it wasn't a total loss.

[dtknowles]

Thanks Harry... I've found several free apps also. Even spent the time for a few online tutorials but when I sign into the 'App/store' the dang 'sign-in window thing just sits there with that dad-blamed circle going round and round, does that for hours...locks up the entire store app. on a tab & I can't even close it.
I got so mad, I unplugged the computer twice in a row...I didn't fall for it a third time!

Looks like what I'd like to do and what I'll actually do about this is two different things. Too bad...I think this is a genius way of examining several 5-shot groupings to see a bigger and more complete picture!

GOD . . . I HATE COMPUTERS!

Before I started using pictures I used to do dot plots. This is 4 five shot groups done with dot plots. Cast bullet .22 hornet groups.

279247

Tim

[303Guy]

I once cast 22 boolits for my 223. I then much later cast more for the 22 hornet. Anyway, once I got out of recovery .... :Luvcastboolits:

I still have some of castings actually. They must have fully aged by now. :mrgreen:

Actually, it would be awesome if I could get the mold to cast well - the old hornet is just lying there screaming to get taken out and fired. Bulk .224 bullets are reasonably cheap and I have a bunch but 22 rf is just so much easier - and lot's of fun. :Fire:

Any way, my last range session got cancelled due to some idiot getting covid, going to the doctor, being sent for covid test and told to go home and isolate but chose instead to go to the gym and several other places resulting in a city wide lockdown! [smilie=b:
But this coming Sunday the range is open so I can finally try out my new batch of ammo and get some trigger time.
OS, you do realize that you get me all fired up to go shooting, don't you? :guntootsmiley:

In fact, looking at your rifles makes me wonder whether I could fit my Cooey barrel which has a tight chamber and bore onto my Mauser which has a rust damaged bore. It has a beautiful crisp and light trigger! Being a collectors piece I would not want to make any mods to the action itself. It's also a momento from my father and the rifle I grew up with so it would be nice to use it as a target rifle. I should ask over on gunsmithing tips and tricks for thoughts on that one.

https://i.postimg.cc/5tXLkVkX/Dad_s_Mauser_22_011(1).jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I think I'll fit a scope on it and take it to the range, one never knows, it might even group with one of the ammo selection I have. The last time I tried it it shot a pattern!

[OS OK]

That bolt looks like it was designed for use with a close fitting scope?
Is that an 11mm rail built into the top of the receiver?

[303Guy]

Yes it's an 11mm. I had a scope on it before for my father because of his eyes. I found it had to be mounted high to allow the spent case to eject. I've just fitted a scope with high mounts and it shoulders rather nicely. I have a long neck so all my scopes are mounted high.

https://i.postimg.cc/RC1KPRN4/DSCF3091-1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[dverna]

.303 Guy

Consider a liner for that nice old rifle.

[303Guy]

If I went for a liner I would want it to be target quality which will cost me but is what I would like to do. It would restore the gun to it's full value I should think. But for me the value is that it was my Dad's rifle and the one I grew up with. It would of course be nice to pass it on to my son in pristine condition. Something to think about.

[OS OK]

I haven't been around in a while because I'm working on a sturdy shooting bench...just to rule out all the little 'wiggly things' like the picnic table that are keeping me from getting a one-hole group!
Lotz of rain coming through in NorCal this time of year so I have to try to dodge that to work outside...
Seems like I must'a forgot something on this bench?

https://i.imgur.com/ZuuiKMX.jpg

I'll figure it out and get'er done hopefully in a few days.

[beltfed]

OS OK
Am I seeing that it is a left handed bench?
I would suggest you "trianglulate" a brace from that rear leg to the lower horizontal member.
beltfed/arnie

[tazman]

Of course it's a left handed bench. OS is always on the off side of his rifle.

OS OK---- It certainly looks solid enough. That is a good thing.

I am pretty certain you will need a flat piece of heavy plywood on top of this framework for the other rest system. It doesn't have the kind of triangular bottom setup that the front rest in the current picture does. Without the plywood top, making small adjustments to your sideways position would be difficult at best. Probably will need to be wider in the back to have space for ammunition as well.
It would also be altogether too easy to accidentally push the rest off the top of the bench the way it is now.
I like the way you left room underneath for your legs so they won't run afoul of the framework.

[OS OK]

I thought I had posted on this build in this thread...maybe it was the other one about the Peep & Globe....hmmm, I guess I ought'a catch'Yas up some.

It's designed for 3 layers of 3/4" plywood all glued & screwed together so that'll be a 2.25" thick top & plenty heavy...it'll look like this...

https://i.imgur.com/NqnjJyH.jpg

The rifle should have plenty of room on top with ammo and anything else I need...

https://i.imgur.com/NReZjWM.jpg

I usually draw things like this up on the shop floor to make dang sure things work as planned.
Under the top, in front inside both legs and in the rear, in front of the rear leg I have metal 90º braces screwed in with 6 ea. 1.5" screws, that took all the wiggle out of it...she's solid as a rock.

https://i.imgur.com/Vxbga8f.jpg

Every mortise and tenon is glued & pinned with a 3/8" dowel...

https://i.imgur.com/sm95GyK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/rcNGmkf.jpg

I have some welding to do next in making the leveling legs...not sure exactly how I'll handle that but that's next along with the top and a good sealing & paint job.

[tazman]

That should do it.

[dverna]

Nice...hope you have a tractor to move it once it is done...LOL

[dtknowles]

While that is a nice bench. You are still going to be at a disadvantage compared to a competition bench rest that is cast concrete set deep into a concrete slab with a concrete deck. Probably ok for .22 LR.

Tim

[303Guy]

My range benches and seats are one piece and sits on a wooden floor so when another shooter moves the set up shakes. I'm sure I could blame some of my poor shots on that. I try to time my shots and mostly it's fine.

[OS OK]

Made more progress today...

Took off early this morning to run around the mountain and pick up a sheet of 3/4" ply.
Got it cut and laminated...can't do anything with it for 24 hours just yet...

https://i.imgur.com/5GLXpAS.jpg

Built a set of leveling feet...they still need 3" square pads welded on to them but I ran out of steam today...

https://i.imgur.com/pJyHq7I.jpg

They will bolt on to each leg something like this, holes in the bar are 1.5" apart...

https://i.imgur.com/ofwHLs6.jpg

Three more days of sunshine and warm weather ahead, with the Good Lord willing & the creek don't rise...I just may get'er done!

[tazman]

You are certainly making a lot of progress.

[OS OK]

You are certainly making a lot of progress.

"I want to go shootin!"

[tazman]

"I want to go shootin!"

I hear that and sympathize.
Today I had a warm and sunny 65 degree day with a 25 mph gusty wind.
Forecast calls for rain, wind, and cooler weather for the next 9 days.
I may not get to shoot the 22 rifle for a while yet.

[OS OK]

"Were still gettin there...just ain't got there yet!"

Finally all the cutting, fitting. gluing, welding & screwing is done...next is the paint phase...gotta seal this bugger up so she'll last.
Here's my custom 'Redneck Leveling Legs', is there any wonder that I can't find a single spot on this ridge to check my oil in the truck?

https://i.imgur.com/vhyXu3u.jpg

She's heavy & stable & I'm tickled.

https://i.imgur.com/gJYB5sI.jpg

[303Guy]

Looking good! :drinks:

[Jedman]

That would be perfect for me as I am a lefty also. I have built several benches before but yours is much sturdier/ heavier and you really have something that will last.

Jedman

[dverna]

NICE!!!

One small suggestion. Think about adding a bit of a "lip" around the edge so stuff does not roll off. I am going to try weather striping on mine. They sell the flexible stuff with adhesive backing. Easy enough to remove without damaging anything if I do not like it. My commercial bench has a groove molded into the top but it is not 100% effective.

I see one other "problem". You will soon run out of excuses...LOL

Again, nice build

[OS OK]

Thanks for the kind words fellas . . . I enjoy little projects like this where you think about it for a week or two and then see if you can actually build what you dreamed up in your head...so far so good.

Jedman . . . Us 'lefties' have to make do in a 'Right Handed World'...you don't see a right side to this bench...I don't give them 'righties' any advantages here on the home range, "let them suffer for a change, I say!" :bigsmyl2:

dverna . . . I came close to adding an inch wide x 1/4" deep routed slot all the way around but since this sits in a spot that the summer sprinklers hit every other day, I declined...don't want any standing water on the plywood or it'll eventually de-laminate itself. A boarder would cause standing water also. Currently I'm looking for a BBQ cover that I can sew some lead fishing weights into to keep it covered, that should help some?
It is windy on this ridge at times & I wonder really, how effective would a cloth cover be?

I'm going to give her the best oil based paint job I can manage & hope that'll make her last longer . . .

[dtknowles]

That is very nice. You could always put sand bags behind each leg for guns with more kick. Make yourself a comfy stool the right height and you are set. Three leg stool is good on uneven ground.

Tim

[303Guy]

I preserve wooden items by sealing them with polyurethane clear varnish, diluted with mineral turps. It soaks in and seals it. That can then be overcoated with paint or just the clear polyurethane. I tend to leave the underside unsealed so that any moisture can find its way out.

[Pressman]

Looking good. For what it's worth I would set each leg on a concrete landscaping block, just to keep them out of the dirt.

Ken

[tazman]

These last two suggestions are excellent.

[OS OK]

There ain't nothing but good suggestions in this thread!

Got started on the coating part yesterday, stripped all the hardware off and got a quart of Marine Spar Something'or'other (they use it on boat hulls) and a quart of oil based sealer (the white on the top) & today the top gets a coat of oil base color over that...did I mention how much I hate to paint?

"Painting & Plumbing! They both suck!"

https://i.imgur.com/Q4plV5e.jpg

[OS OK]

Finally...got some color on her!

Getting closer and closer, gotta do the bottom side and give it 24 hours to dry & I'm looking at mounting the top & getting on the business end of my rifle!
YeeeeeHaa!

https://i.imgur.com/SO8DpYT.jpg

[tazman]

Isn't the business end of a rifle the end the bullet comes out?

[OS OK]

Isn't the business end of a rifle the end the bullet comes out?

I don't know?

Dad used to tell me as a kid, when I'd be goofing off instead doing my work...."You better get on the business end of that shovel boy before I have'ta" ....or the business end of that paint brush...whatever I was supposed to be doing was always the business end to Dad.

[OS OK]

"Once in a 'Blue Moon'...you just have to sit back and relish the moment when a project goes well!"

https://i.imgur.com/WGswPKC.jpg

All the work is done, the bench is in place & I'm ready to go tomorrow...just ran out of steam today!
Had to use a short stool with shims to determine the right stool height for the new bench...

https://i.imgur.com/gO9fMkh.jpg

I needed a little mount for a golf type umbrella so I made one from an 1.5" PVC and an old 'C' clamp...

https://i.imgur.com/xd0lWbp.jpg

Had to make a few shims/pads from an old cutting board for the rest and the c-clamp...that rest has pointed leveling bolts and it would have wrecked the paint job on the top...

https://i.imgur.com/r0PFC3V.jpg

All in all though...I was very satisfied, I hope that we will see some more 'refined-one hole groups' in the weeks ahead?

https://i.imgur.com/9Dkfklk.jpg

I think...all I need now is a cover for a BBQ or a small ATV to protect it and the stool from the sprinklers when the irrigation season starts.

[tazman]

Looks like a winner to me. Only question I have is, do you get enough rain to soften the dirt under the table?
The table is heavy enough it may sink a little when the ground gets wet and softens.

[303Guy]

Looking very good! So is the view over the hills you have there.

[OS OK]

Looks like a winner to me. Only question I have is, do you get enough rain to soften the dirt under the table?
The table is heavy enough it may sink a little when the ground gets wet and softens.

I'm going to follow Pressman's advise and put a landscaping stone under each foot, just haven't had the time or energy to go buy some....been kinda busy lately.

Had a heckuva night trying to sleep . . . gotta date on the 50 yard line today! :bigsmyl2:

[303Guy]

The other trick would be to place a set of discs under the stakes (with center holes for the stake). That way the stakes can still anchor the bench. Or drill through the landscaping stones. Or not. :-D

Looking forward to your 50 yd results! I'm off to the range shortly to test ammo (and have trigger fun).

[tazman]

I'm going to follow Pressman's advise and put a landscaping stone under each foot, just haven't had the time or energy to go buy some....been kinda busy lately.

Had a heckuva night trying to sleep . . . gotta date on the 50 yard line today! :bigsmyl2:


Have you given her a name yet?

[OS OK]

The other trick would be to place a set of discs under the stakes (with center holes for the stake). That way the stakes can still anchor the bench. Or drill through the landscaping stones. Or not. :-D

Looking forward to your 50 yd results! I'm off to the range shortly to test ammo (and have trigger fun).

I welded 3" square pads on the ends of those rods...

https://i.imgur.com/3CHvMyu.jpg

[OS OK]

Have you given her a name yet?

No Taz...hahaaa....she's just a her & vise versa.

[303Guy]

I'd say those pads would support the bench in wet weather just fine. In my parts however - well, sometimes our lawns turn to mush. Not where I am now - I don't have a lawn at all. I'm in the bush! :mrgreen:

So I went to the range today. Great fun! My late dad's 22 Mauser shot rather well with a scope. Very pleasing! I didn't do too badly with open sights with my 511 either. Very encouraging. I'm getting quite motivated to mount that aperture sight on the 510. I have figured out how I'm going to do it. Just need to pick up the material.

The Ozzies have a neat name for she's - they call them Shiela's. :mrgreen:

P.S. I really like your bench creation. You are a clever man! You give me inspiration.

[OS OK]

Twas a great day for shooting ... it's been too long!

I really enjoyed having a real bench for a change...the picnic table is retired to the barn.

https://i.imgur.com/lPMlMaj.jpg

I shot what is on the right side of the yellow line. Thought I'd use the '0.5-20'...make just one 'warmer spot' in the top circle and go with all the rest without letting it cool off.
I didn't impress myself, I have to admit I was rusty & out of practice but unfortunately, I'm at the end of the 'Eley-Match' I've been enjoying. Down to 2 boxes of that...

https://i.imgur.com/ypkqsIV.jpg

Eley sent out e-mail notifications, I think it was Thursday last...I got online immediately and tried to order 3 bricks of the Match @ 1,048fps, the slowest Match they had. They had such a run on their website that their computer would time-out and I'd loose the page I was ordering on. Smart me decided to open two tabs and double my chances of getting through...that ended up in a disaster and my order eventually got into the basked but it was 6 bricks by then!
Finally, a couple time-outs later I have the amount I wanted and went to check out, at this point their server said that my e-mail is somebody else's...that my e-mail is not me!
"Well, that sunk the duck!"
By the time I got on with my wife's e-mail, made the order and headed into the checkout...they didn't have enough stock to fill my order and I left empty handed. I bet you boys could hear someone cussing from where you live! I was livid!
SO I send them a e-mail begging them to straighten out my e-mail address so I won't miss the next time they get more stock...they resolved that the next day.
"Oh boy ... that was a bad deal all around!" The notification said all orders have to be placed on their website, no call in orders! God, I hate computers!

Now, I'm faced with using the Eley 'tenex', I have 500 rounds of those yet, I don't like them as they are faster than the Match and I think they flirt with the pressure wave up here at 2.2K feet ASL. But, I'll take that over nothing to shoot at all.
That meant starting over looking for some nodes to work through, so I spent the after noon preparing this chart here...

https://i.imgur.com/yorw0AH.jpg

I checked every .012 & .013" incrimentally for the entire .500" travel of the tuner. That is kind of a wide sampling but several possible nodes did appear.

[303Guy]

Am I seeing some rather impressive results or am I just seeing impressive results!

Pity about the loss of that order. Just an aside - would you happen to have or be able to get any CCI Mini-Mags? Not that you would want to upset the bore conditioning but it would interesting to see just what Mini-Mags can do in your rifle. I kinda see them as a benchmark. I've shot some rather nice groups with them. I won't be trying them again for a while simply because I don't want to upset my rifle bores with copper wash ammo (and I certainly wouldn't expect you to). At the moment I'm sticking to greased ammo and even those show some 'conditioning' when changing from one to the other.

[barrabruce]

That’s one fancy bench.
On the right side to sit on and all.
Well if you can’t shoot any better from now on , then at least you will look spliffy doing it.
Can’t see the cat sleeping bed to rain in the empties.
You haven’t a bolt pouch and take down tool and a swanky ammo tray.
Where the plastic flag you shove up the bore and all that fluff?

You need at least 3 wind flags with ball bearing races and swivels on the vanes some tails and fan blades to judge the wind proper.
All target height where it counts.
That’ll be only another thousand.
And I wanna see some screamer patches and meeting patches embroidered on a jacket or something.
Man you need some more gear.
At least about a Ute load to be sure.

O.K. Then I’ll buggar off back to the cheap seats and shut up and watch then.

[Mr_Sheesh]

OS OK, for a cover, you can DIY treat your cloth of choice, dissolve Silicone caulk in Stoddard solvent (Or gasoline if you don't have any, just don't burn yourself up!) - then paint that onto your cloth, could also soak the cloth in it but that requires more mix. Ultralight Hammocking folks use that with ripstop nylon for rain flys, theycall that "SilNylon", but you could treat a tablecloth, satin, denim, most any cloth to make it waterproof that way. Fairly inexpensive and your choice of fabric.

[OS OK]

OS OK, for a cover, you can DIY treat your cloth of choice, dissolve Silicone caulk in Stoddard solvent (Or gasoline if you don't have any, just don't burn yourself up!) - then paint that onto your cloth, could also soak the cloth in it but that requires more mix. Ultralight Hammocking folks use that with ripstop nylon for rain flys, theycall that "SilNylon", but you could treat a tablecloth, satin, denim, most any cloth to make it waterproof that way. Fairly inexpensive and your choice of fabric.

Thanks for the advise, I never heard of doing this before...for now, all I want to do is shoot...so...I'm hoping I can find a pre-made cover so I won't have another project for a while.

[OS OK]

Ole Big'Brain Harry Tobin saw a problem I had before I discovered it yesterday . . . He's been digging up his septic tank and hadn't had time to alert me to a solution, hahaaa...I had the same solution and got it resolved before shooting today.
For those leveling legs to work they needed holes large enough to let them slide up and down, unfortunately that leaves a wobbel in the table...I mulled on it last night and came up with the exact solution Harry was going to tell me about.

When is it good to have a 'wedgie'?

https://i.imgur.com/j9qCpjN.jpg

So this is the end of the 'wobble'...I hope for good!

https://i.imgur.com/LwaqQg4.jpg

For today's practice, I thought I'd explore both sides of the first place that indicated a possible node, I started at the row 'B', column 'G' at the '1.0-12' adjustment. That is .112" from the minimum setting of '0.0-0'...that is how much added length the adjustment adds to overall barrel length...

https://i.imgur.com/yorw0AH.jpg

I thought it may be interesting to see every setting on both sides of that possible node, going shorter by .006" in .001" adjustments at a time...also see what it looks like on the longer side of that center node setting setting too by the same amount...this shows a .013" total spread of adjustments...it is interesting what we see here, an undiscovered node...

https://i.imgur.com/zLUqA7z.jpg

This new node happens to coincide with the actual scope adjustment...centered vertical and a bullet width above the horizontal. I've got it adjusted this way so I won't blow out the cross hatch in the target and make it tough to align the cross hairs in 5 shot or greater groups.

I was thinking that I will do this for all the possible nodes in that first cursory look in the top target...next I think I should 'proove the nodes' I discover with at least one 5 shot group, maybe even several at these node settings....well, unless one of you have a better idea.
Remember I'm working these node adjustments without any prior experience doing this with a tuner.

I have studied this target today trying to see what physical change the barrel makes as it points in various directions as the round leaves the muzzle...I thought this might give us a clue as to whether the barrel reacts to the vibrations in a circle or if it moves in a figure 8 passing through it's undisturbed position. For the life of me, I can't see it yet, maybe I'm looking for a linear tracing and that doesn't really happen.

[303Guy]

I'm still looking for that second shot on -16. :kidding:

Is it possible that -15 represents an angled swing and -16 is the neutral point? Perhaps shoot two more at -16 to proof it.

Then again, maybe you need to move the tuner further forward of the muzzle to see how that behaves. It could be that the node in that range is not at the muzzle. That's just a question.

[barrabruce]

What is the direction of your twist again?
Just pondering when I used a bit of water pipe on the end of my gun and a screw thread.
Apparently from what I could make out of it all.

If you are on a top of a vibration isolation you get horizontal spreading
Half way through vertical. You get wide vertical or half moons.

Now you really want the bottom of an isolation because to lift the weight will take more time .

The time for the bullet to move in a linear point because of dwell length is the same.

But it is moving down then back up so it shows up as half the vertical distance on paper.

Hope that’s clear as mud anyway.

By moving the weight out or in your are attempting to move that point in the isolation to forward or back in that isolation to hopefully a null point.

There maybe many vibration nodes and you are trying to find a point where the all meet and cancel each other out.

Phew something like that.

Of corse bullet velocity and time in barrel will alter that.

[dverna]

Charlie,
To "prove the nodes", you may want to consider two 10 shot groups.

One at what this two shot method tells you is the best setting. The other ten shot group at what seems to be the worst setting. Unless there is a discernable difference in those two groups, it calls into question either the validity of the "two shot group method", or the ability to interpret what the two shot method is telling you.

My opinion is setting 10 for the worst, and setting 16 for the best...but I am not schooled in this.

With my mediocre bench abilities and lack of match rifle/ammo, I get so much variation in groups that 2 shots tell me nothing unless it is a lousy group. So I have a mental block in seeing much value in 2 shot groups. Waiting to be proven wrong and learn more.

BTW, I should have my PCP rifle ready to go this week. It came with a test target of .16" at 20 yards. That should be about .5" at 50 yards...hopefully. It will certainly test my ability to shoot...LOL. I will be starting with my archaic method of 5 shot groups to test a number of different pellets so see what works the best. But your damn thread has got me thinking. I have a suppressor on my rifle. I could use brass shim stock to add between the suppressor and the end of the barrel to do the same "tuner" effect for cheap cheap cheap!

Charlie, if you send my down this tuner "rabbit hole" I will curse you!!! I hope the rifle shoots well enough to stay stock and not drive me nuts. But that little voice (that makes me think I have some Scottish blood in me) keeps wondering, "What if I can use a tuner shim to make the $7/500 el cheapo pellets shoot as well as $20/500 match pellets?"

BTW, enjoying your journey. I will be starting a thread to document mine in the Airgun sub forum.

[OS OK]

Charlie,
To "prove the nodes", you may want to consider two 10 shot groups.

One at what this two shot method tells you is the best setting. The other ten shot group at what seems to be the worst setting. Unless there is a discernable difference in those two groups, it calls into question either the validity of the "two shot group method", or the ability to interpret what the two shot method is telling you.

My opinion is setting 10 for the worst, and setting 16 for the best...but I am not schooled in this.

With my mediocre bench abilities and lack of match rifle/ammo, I get so much variation in groups that 2 shots tell me nothing unless it is a lousy group. So I have a mental block in seeing much value in 2 shot groups. Waiting to be proven wrong and learn more.

BTW, I should have my PCP rifle ready to go this week. It came with a test target of .16" at 20 yards. That should be about .5" at 50 yards...hopefully. It will certainly test my ability to shoot...LOL. I will be starting with my archaic method of 5 shot groups to test a number of different pellets so see what works the best. But your damn thread has got me thinking. I have a suppressor on my rifle. I could use brass shim stock to add between the suppressor and the end of the barrel to do the same "tuner" effect for cheap cheap cheap!

Charlie, if you send my down this tuner "rabbit hole" I will curse you!!! I hope the rifle shoots well enough to stay stock and not drive me nuts. But that little voice (that makes me think I have some Scottish blood in me) keeps wondering, "What if I can use a tuner shim to make the $7/500 el cheapo pellets shoot as well as $20/500 match pellets?"

BTW, enjoying your journey. I will be starting a thread to document mine in the Airgun sub forum.

Don, I've had the same doubts about this 'two shot' cursory node search also. We have already seen the 'wide variances' in this expensive ammo...just how much that matters, I've yet to determine.
Nodes are all about 'barrel time' and frequency of the shot vibrations and the platform from which we send them, even the surface of the shooting bench and the equipment we shoot off of makes 'some difference'...much of that we have very little control over with the .22lr.
This is partly a 'mind game' of trying to cover & consider every little thing we do right up to actually sending the round properly...

https://i.imgur.com/mfYsFMq.jpg

This means a lot of work with the chrony out front and keeping track of shots, shot per shot numbered & located & fps included. I am not looking forward to that so I think I'll keep mulling on a good method and save that for when I think I have identified some 'solid nodes'.
That is a good idea you have to check the 'worst node' choices also, this I will do today with 10 shot groups.

I have searched high and low for someone on the Y-Tube that is an expert with these tuners (there are several) but there are 'few' who show anything but their best groups...that means very little to me as "every old Squirrel eventually finds a nut." . . :bigsmyl2:

I think that's a brilliant idea about using shim stock to duplicate what a tuner would do, just remember how wild these shots can disperse just by changing by .001" of an inch barrel length.
For increments that small you may be able to use 'tin foil' washers until you accumulate so many that you can actually use a brass shim stock...I'm not familiar with the thicknesses of shim stock although this outfit seems to have it as thin as .001"...but...it's expensive! Maybe they sell it in short orders too?
Maybe a local machine shop would sell you enough to work with...just spitwadding here Don, I'd like to see you do this in a thread as I've never seen this approach before, it's unique and I will definitely follow your work doing this...remember to put a link in my thread here so everyone will know you've started the project!
( https://www.onlinemetals.com/en/buy/brass-shim-stock )

Doing this last test, I was sweating bullets as I started and worked towards that first 'node location' there in the center of this last picture...

https://i.imgur.com/zLUqA7z.jpg

I was thinking..."what if they don't do a 'one holer' again...OMG...what am I trying to prove here? Then the first shot of that setting hit & came in at what I consider 12:00 in the circle and my heart just dropped...then the second shot got right in with it and the panic was over...there was some little proof after all, I hope all the node locations prove to be the same and end up being a choice of where on the barrel movement I want to shoot the node."


@barrabruce... ( What is the direction of your twist again? )
I can't answer that at the moment, seems like it was a clockwise twist looking from the breech and counter clockwise as I looked from the muzzle, I am not sure and I can't see it now as the tuner is in place and I don't intend to remove it again unless I have to.
I left a letter to the old fella who sold this rifle through my local GS dealer, asking about all the modifications, who had made them & what he had used it for since it came with an expensive 'Pappas Rest' for open class work at distance.

https://i.imgur.com/iXTl9qb.jpg

He has yet to reply, I don't think he is going to, it's been some time now since I bought the rig.
The only thing recognizable on this build is the 'Scout CZ receiver & bolt' everything else is custom, including the barrel.

[farmbif]

I really like bench design, job well done!
if I were to build something fancy like that then I'd be very tempted to buy a new volquartsen or something else real accurate to shoot.

[tazman]

I hate to mention this, but the twist will be the same direction(clockwise or counterclockwise) no matter which end of the barrel you are looking through.

[303Guy]

I hate to mention this, but the twist will be the same direction(clockwise or counterclockwise) no matter which end of the barrel you are looking through.

I wasn't going to say it! :mrgreen:

[OS OK]

I hate to mention this, but the twist will be the same direction(clockwise or counterclockwise) no matter which end of the barrel you are looking through.

TAZ . . . If I look in the receiver end the rifling takes off veering to the right so in my minds eye that's 'clockwise.
When I look into the muzzle, the rifling is coming out to the left, that's 'counter-clockwise'.
I realize it didn't change...it was just the way I was looking at it.
I know...I'm weird!

[OS OK]

Strange results today...

I went in to look at the worst 2 shot & best 2 shot groups re-shot in 10 shot groups. What I expected to see I didn't...now I don't know what to think?

https://i.imgur.com/cVieQQJ.jpg

I did the '-16' setting twice...still don't know what to think?

[dtknowles]

Strange results today...

I went in to look at the worst 2 shot & best 2 shot groups re-shot in 10 shot groups. What I expected to see I didn't...now I don't know what to think?

https://i.imgur.com/cVieQQJ.jpg

I did the '-16' setting twice...still don't know what to think?

If either one is a node the node probably does not make your groups much smaller than a random setting.

Tim

[303Guy]

Maybe get a 10 shot or two ten shot groups without the tuner to establish a baseline. That should give you an idea of what the tuner is actually doing.

[tazman]

Maybe get a 10 shot or two ten shot groups without the tuner to establish a baseline. That should give you an idea of what the tuner is actually doing.

I would agree with that except for one point. By removing and reinstalling the tuner, it may not work exactly the same and all his testing so far will be wasted.
The bare barrel testing should have been done prior to testing with the tuner in place.

[barrabruce]

Could be wind .
You could cheat and run a line with tails on it all the way to the target.
Sure you ain’t getting and swirly winds coming up/down from on direction?

The range I shoot the wind come up over the roof and then comes down about 20 yards in front of it in one direction.
Swirls around another part and sometimes shaded by trees from the wind but has a clear spot where it can push on things too.

I can’t read it but some people are full on tuned to it all.

Well according to a local br50 people.
It’s all in the wind.

[dverna]

Could be wind .
You could cheat and run a line with tails on it all the way to the target.
Sure you ain’t getting and swirly winds coming up/down from on direction?

The range I shoot the wind come up over the roof and then comes down about 20 yards in front of it in one direction.
Swirls around another part and sometimes shaded by trees from the wind but has a clear spot where it can push on things too.

I can’t read it but some people are full on tuned to it all.

Well according to a local br50 people.
It’s all in the wind.

It might be that "simple". But that is way beyond what I can deal with. It is difficult enough for me to try to make my shots when the wind seems "about the same" as when I started the group.

As to OS OK's last three 10 shot groups, frankly I am not too surprised. Unless you have extremely capable ammunition, gun and shooter combo (BTW, I am NOT suggesting OS OK is not capable) I cannot wrap my head around the value of 2 shot groups. It seems to waste time and money, while trying to save time and money. If I try my Hillbilly tuner idea out (BTW have found shim stock down to .001"), I will not be using the two shot method unless Charlie finds it works and explains it, or I find someone who can explain and answer my questions.

Tazman, I respectfully disagree with your comment. Taking the tuner off and establishing a "base line" is worth doing. If Charlie can shoot the gun/ammo into 5/8" groups without the tuner, it would seem his work to date with the tuner has not been productive anyway. I keep hearing that a change of .001" can "make or break" the accuracy node and I cannot understand why when there are so many other factors at play. First is the variability of the ammunition. Then there is the natural heating of barrel as it is shot. Lastly, ambient conditions. Let me explain the heat issue.

The coefficient of expansion of steel is .0000072"/degree/in. If a 24" barrel changes temperature by 30* either due to the ambient conditions or barrel heat during shooting, it will expand just over .005"....that is five times the .001" "make or break" claim. So testing done at 50* will be questionable if shooting during an 80* day. Then add in barrel heat from shooting. I suppose a thermocouple could be placed into the barrel and tuner settings changed relative to barrel heat....but it is getting a bit far fetched IMO.

BTW, we know a "hot" barrel can shoot to a different POI than a "cool" barrel so this is already a proven phenomena. In a HV rifle, the barrel temperature differences are higher than 30*. All this to say, I do not buy into the .001" claims of the difference between success and failure unless someone can explain it to me. So, I will keep shooting like I have for 50+ years and wasting ammunition on multiple 5 shot groups, until I am like the blind squirrel that finds a nut, and find a load I can live with.

[tazman]

The only thing that concerns me about taking the tuner off is he will essentially be discarding all the testing he has done to this point and will be starting over.
Not necessarily a bad thing. Particularly if the rifle shoots as well or better without the tuner as with it. No way to know without taking it off and finding out.
It would be hard for me to just write off all the time and ammunition spent on testing so far. It is up to him whether or not it is worth it.

Everything else you said, I agree with.

[barrabruce]

Well I’m not trying to say I know much but from what I can make of it.
You are going to get these variations and these are ball park figures.
.1 or2 from velocity variation
.1 up to ? to from wind effect.
We’re are already a bullet hole deflected before we start.
That being that you have all your other **** twisted tight.
That is why when I have spoken to top shooters talk about a event they went to will say they sometimes spend more time on the practice target when they think they got their condition again than shooting for score or group.
Things like it was tough with the mirage and I put one down on the slighter and and it went woof way off over there.
I was running out of time and went for a run of safe nines.

I wanna house with a indoor wind tunnel in the back room from my loading and workshop like some do to set up their guns.
Easier to get a snack or cuppa then and air conditioned.

How hard some have it.

I see the br50 mob go through eley tenx quicker than a teenager with a 22 pistol and a bucket of bullets just practicing for an event.

[tazman]

Well I’m not trying to say I know much but from what I can make of it.
You are going to get these variations and these are ball park figures.
.1 or2 from velocity variation
.1 up to ? to from wind effect.
We’re are already a bullet hole deflected before we start.
That being that you have all your other **** twisted tight.
That is why when I have spoken to top shooters talk about a event they went to will say they sometimes spend more time on the practice target when they think they got their condition again than shooting for score or group.
Things like it was tough with the mirage and I put one down on the slighter and and it went woof way off over there.
I was running out of time and went for a run of safe nines.

I wanna house with a indoor wind tunnel in the back room from my loading and workshop like some do to set up their guns.
Easier to get a snack or cuppa then and air conditioned.

How hard some have it.

I see the br50 mob go through eley tenx quicker than a teenager with a 22 pistol and a bucket of bullets just practicing for an event.

No possible way I can afford that. Probably why I am so reluctant to discard all the testing the OP has already done.
Just me though. I have to be cheap.
Also I am not trying to shoot one hole. I am trying to do ARA factory class. It's a lot different than BR50. I can get by with a well centered half inch group at 50 yards.

[OS OK]

It's been a frustrating couple sessions today... but I think I learned a tiny bit more.

Not having seen what I wanted to see in Monday's bench work I went to bed confused...
Today I figured I'd repeat that target and have another look.
That 2-shot business is not my invention...it is suggested, I think by the manufacturer in working with their tuner. I believe that link to the instructions is posted somewhere in this thread.
Being the Neophyte at this game I thought I'd follow instructions, even if I didn't understand...eventually I might.
What I want to see is groupings that basically include those two shots when I go to prove that particular adjustment, prove it good or bad.
I tried again early this morning...

https://i.imgur.com/mRkqXpi.jpg

Now I know the ammo is a big part of this and I'm using the best I can afford. I don't know this ammo's characteristics very well so in my confusion, I immediately start thinking I got a string of bad ammo? Then I think maybe it's something else...but after this mornings session I'm sure it's something else.
Those are not groups...those are pitiful attempts...
Now I'm thinking that barrel is at it's max again and starting to open up groupings, I think the last time it did that I was right at 300 rounds.
Okay....simple fix...a cold beer and a wet Hoppes mop & I'm back in business...I'll just have another go at it this afternoon.

One little caveat though....the wind got bad...so I just timed my shots for a lull. That worked ok for the first target, I knew that one would be all over the place after mopping the bore so that's acceptable, I know it'll shoot back in pretty quickly.
But after that the wind got relentless and the lulls were few and far in between...I'm stubborn, I went with it anyway...

https://i.imgur.com/RnFHo3g.jpg

Notice the groups moved over and except for a FTF & one single loner in the third target... almost stayed there left of center...again today I proved nothing but I did have an interesting thing happen, that FTF, a failure to fire.
Look at this...

https://i.imgur.com/TFbrFmO.jpg

First time this has happened with any of the Eley I've used ... I rolled her over and shot her again...see the 'FTF' note on the middle target up at 10:00? That wasn't wind, that was that cartridge did that...don't understand it either...yet.

https://i.imgur.com/Q7fXePM.jpg

Well, again...not much to write home about but I still want to try this again but without the wind to deal with. I'll have to wait for a few days now for calm weather, it was gusting 30mph by end of day...same for tomorrow.

About trying the rifle without the tuner. I know I shouldn't do it, I'm taking a chance on getting it back on exactly the same...but what the heck, I'm going to do the 'bare barrel test' anyway! I have only 500 rounds left of this tenex.
Soon I hope to have 3 bricks of Eley Match at 1,048 fps so I'll have to start over with that testing. That's ok by me, it's all good practice.

[tazman]

I has a single Eley Tenex that misfired on the first hit and fired on the second hit as well. The difference being mine went into the group with rest of them.
Just goes to show, even the best can make a mistake now and then.
Actually, I am amazed they can provide ammo of this consistency using mass production techniques.

[barrabruce]

Well I’d be using a witness mark or a reading off a datum so I could get ‘er back pretty good.
Don’t worry my top self stuff is cci std.
On a good day if I can shoot the tacks out holding the target up On the frame I’m happy as a new born under a blanket.

[dverna]

Good idea about the witness mark. You can use blue painters tape on both so you do not mark up the barrel or tuner.

[OS OK]

OK boys...guess what the tuner setting is today...?

https://i.imgur.com/k6r39Ah.jpg

"The tuner is setting on the table!"

I got the testing done with the Eley 'tenex' & the 'Match'...

https://i.imgur.com/rCL8ZAE.jpg

It ain't nothing to brag about but I think the ES of these rounds are exaggerated with a bare barrel.
In a round-about way...I think that tuner is actually averaging the ES of the rounds, bringing the node to the muzzle the ES is minimized (me thinks?)....remember the early testing with the tuner? There's some pretty good groups here...

https://i.imgur.com/hTrlfMQ.jpg

So, in my estimation...the tuner is worthy of the work it takes to tune it to the ammo you have.
Of course I'm open for debate on that...what do you fellas think?

I spent the afternoon reclaiming some of that nice soft lead back from my catcher backstop...

https://i.imgur.com/clW82eK.jpg

[Pressman]

That's a lot of 22 boolits!

[OS OK]

That's a lot of 22 boolits!

That's roughly 2,100 of the 40 gn. but the sad part is that I lost 7.5 lbs. of oxidized lead that wouldn't go back into the melt...

https://i.imgur.com/IRdCGmY.jpg

[tazman]

Losses to oxidation and dross are always higher than you want and often higher than one would expect.
Somewhere around here, I have a 5 gallon bucket full of dross from smelting scrap lead. Mostly from range scrap.
I usually recover about 75% by weight.
Never have tried pure 22 rimfire lead in any quantity.

[303Guy]

If you have any stearic acid (the wax found in lanolin), throw some in and it will flux the dross and release some of that lead in it. It will do nothing to the yellow stuff. The yellow stuff gets airborne very easily and gets absorbed through the lungs and intestines and give one lead poisoning. Stearic acid probably costs more than the lead that is recovered but it does clean the melt and is probably not that expensive. Then again, if it aint broke .....

OS, I wanted to ask, how is that rifle of yours bedded? Without taking it apart to look of course. Is the barrel free floated? Maybe you've already mentioned it and I've forgotten.

[OS OK]

I was just looking at the bedding around the receiver, they did a really fine job, neet & clean, looks like a grey epoxy type...no voids & yes the barrel is free floated.
I haven't wanted to crack it open because I have no way of determining...at least approximately what the torque is right now...she's solid as a rock.
I know eventually I'll have to do that though...I wished that old Fella would have answered my letter to him, I could know a lot more by now than I do.

That brown stuff gives me the willies when I see it, I hold my breath when I'm tending the pot & then back off a distance upwind and breath...I'd just as soon not fool with it.
I think the trick to upping my recovery rate would be to take the lead from the catcher much more often and store it in a container until I'm ready to melt it down.

[303Guy]

Thanks.

One trick is to have a lid mounted rich burning gas flame covering the melt pot. Not sure it's worth the effort though unless it would prevent that fine oxide dust from forming. It is something I have thought of but it's much simply just to use an electric hot plate and scoop off the dross. Most of that dross was on the lead already anyway.

[OS OK]

I don't normally have such a high rate of oxidized lead from the catcher...it's those lil soft small pills pert-near disintegrating when they hit the steel, all those small frags are just perfect for oxidizing quickly.

Most of the lead was so fine it looked like wet concrete...took an hour on low flame to dry it good.

https://i.imgur.com/9RHMW9S.jpg

Before I started catching this soft lead my recovery looked like this from large caliber slugs that would hit the sidewalls and smear, not nearly so much fines.

https://i.imgur.com/ifFtV09.jpg

Before I started messing with the .22lr all I shot was the .45ACP mostly, after a summer's practice I'd get a nice haul like this...

https://i.imgur.com/97GyJHW.jpg

This is what's behind that white target face that's tearing up that lead like that...

https://i.imgur.com/PhSILcD.jpg?1

I keep two steel buckets back behind the rail ties...one for soft lead and the other for standard pistol fodder...

https://i.imgur.com/flWBvRh.jpg?1

My big brother helped me install it quite a few years ago...

https://i.imgur.com/rcBWBH9.jpg?1

[barrabruce]

Nice recovery set up.

Shoots good without the tuner.
Seems to like the match more.
The tenex is stringing with more groups shot.
Could be a loose nut behind the butt or fouling.
Could be one of the 27 other variables.
Have you checked your ignition system.
Are you placing the ammo in the chamber the same each time.
I have no answers.
They should shoot all in one hole.

If worse comes to worse it could make a half decent rabbit rifle for spot lighting out the window or tin can marauder.

You should be able to shoot cockroaches wit it as far as you can see them.
And grass hoppers on the veges or caterpillars if they are lying vertical.

Just thinking positively.
:Bright idea:

Now you just have to tune it so the low velocity shots shoot with the barrel in an up more bend and the fast ones don’t quite so high so it evens out at exactly 50 metres/yards..
Then you can go off in a purple fit of rage when you show up to a shoot and they are out a tad in their measuring.

Good luck.

[303Guy]

So on the tuner and whether it's worth it. Hell, yeah! OK, so there doesn't seem to be much improvement with the tuner but what I seem to see is that the tuner is causing a wide change in POI. That could indicate a whole half node out of tune. Or not? So what about making larger changes until there doesn't seem to be much change, then try fine tuning? If that makes any sense.

[tazman]

Just an opinion here and worth what you paid for it.

If a small change on the tuner makes the setup go from decent/good to poor, the rifle is far too picky about adjustment and something is very wrong.
The rifle isn't shooting bad the way it is. It just isn't shooting as well as you want it to.
Trying for consistent perfect, one hole groups is admirable but possibly not achievable. Looking for that magic combination that gives perfection may be a very expensive hunt. And then have it all change on you because some small thing like temperature on a given day throws it off.

Ammunition costs money. Great ammunition costs a lot of money. How much do you have that you can spend? How long are you willing to experiment?

At this point, I would go to a competition as an observer. Find out what the winners are using(rifles, equipment and ammo). Watch what they are doing as far as technique. See just how good their groups are. Are they really that much better than yours?
You can buy equipment and ammunition. It's just money after all. Technique may well be the hard part. That and time to spend working on it.

The bad part is you cannot control your ammo. Lot to lot variation and variations within a lot will still bite you. You can load match centerfire ammo good enough to shoot half MOA or better. Not certain you can buy rimfire ammo that consistent.

My biggest gripe with rimfire target rifle/ammo shooting is this. I have to spend more money on a rifle, equipment, and ammo by a large margin, to achieve even close to the same accuracy I can get with relatively inexpensive centerfire rifles and handloads.
The up side is the barrels don't wear out nearly as fast with rimfire.

Rant over. Back to our regularly scheduled content.
I think I need to go back to bed. Or maybe go to the range and get some trigger time in.

[barrabruce]

Go to a shoot.
It’s not uncommon to see $10-15k sitting on a bench and sundries.
A paddock full of wind flags.
It’s amusing to see over time what is in and what is not.
It was leopold scopes because they we better than weaver
Then March
Now it’s nightforce because they are 1% clearer or optically better or some such.
Tuners never used to work as you can get the lot number and the machine it came off by the case or pallet after you went down south and tested some lots.
Not that mere mortals seam to be invited.
Now everyone has to have this flavour tuner because joe blogg whooped ass one day with one.
It was exactly 15 * muzzle crown.
Now it can be cut just straight.
Whoo and it just keeps on getting better.
And them barrels and actions and triggers that work with ball bearings as shears.

I think it’s about how much you really want those "points for the hall of fame " as to how far you are willing to go and pursue it.
It’s not how good the gun system shoots after a point.
It’s if you can endure the conditions and not make as many mistakes as your rival on the day.

Get some targets and shoot them.
There are not many "screamers" handed out I can tell you for all that’s good and righteous.

[tazman]

Let's see now.
Eley Tenex at $19 per box a case is 100 boxes so $1900 How many cases on a Pallet?
Lapua $20-25 per box.

March or Nightforce scope at $3000 plus

Anshutz BR50 rifle $3000-4000

Rest $1000 and up(unless you get lucky like OS did)

This is just getting started. Still need all the wind flags and such.

I don't have the money for that.
I felt bad when I spent $700 on my rifle and use a $450 Leupold on it. I bought a brick of Tenex and won't use it except at matches because I can't afford to replace it in quantity so I shoot some $4 a box ammo that does well enough to practice with.
I will travel less than 100 miles to a local informal match and still run up against setups that cost 5 times what mine does.
Oh well.

[OS OK]

Some of these considerations here are a little out of my parameters, those parameters that I started with...they haven't changed.

I do realize that the 'Big Boys' in this 'one hole game' have pert-near unlimited resources supplied by the manufacturers who glum onto their talent to sell their gear.
My goals are clearly defined in my first posting of this thread...

[[[from post no. 1 ... Well....I figured that this is my opportunity to go down a new Rabbit Hole...to learn a new shooting style & discipline...to go somewhere I've never been before.
I am an ole'retired'Fart and shoot here at my little property in the Sierras. I don't compete in any sanctioned matches or even know anything about competition, I just enjoy precision shooting and handloading & casting...been doing that since 74.]]]

The bottom line here . . . I'm just learning & discovering things about the .22lr that have never occurred to me before and developing a much better skill set than I have ever had, this is a kick in the pants each time I set my gear on the shooting bench.
For that brief time that I start preparing my target & test plan for the day to the moment I'm done and sitting in the shop with a cold brew studying the day's results, I am in another world where the political turmoil in this world and the mass hysteria of the masked world around me doesn't exist. This is a good place to be & I enjoy being here.

It is the quest of success that I enjoy, the mental challenge and the change of the home-spun equipment that I enjoy...who would have guessed at all the little things that are involved in trying to shoot a one hole group more than one time in a row a few times in life.

See where we started just a little while back...

https://i.imgur.com/VX3Fehj.jpg

Look at where we are today...

https://i.imgur.com/lPMlMaj.jpg

All of this today as a result of trying to learn about a 'Peep & Globe' with a $500 rifle sitting on a picnic table on a bipod...

https://i.imgur.com/46jRqLX.jpg

This has already taken a year of my life this month, that's when it all started last year. Honestly I think that this quest has been one of the most rewarding of all the shooting I've done ever. Don't get me wrong, I still love the 1911 and don't intend to leave them sitting on the top shelf in the safe much longer, this quest will have to share time with them now that summer is here again.

I don't intend to visit any shooting competitions or rub elbows with the 'elite', they don't have what I have...this sublime peace of mind I have in my shooting...they are driven by a different set of goals, don't care to speculate what those goals are since every man is different but I can tell you this much...I think their shooting world is high pressure, high tension...I'm not so sure they, in general get as much personal satisfaction on a daily basis of shooting, they have to perform and that's different.

So for the future, I will still tinker & shoot & mull on what to do next...listen to all your good advise and mull on that also.
Elley tells me they intend to have another shipment sometime about mid month here in April, keep the fingers crossed and maybe I can score enough good stuff to last the summer.

I got my primary sponsor back! The wife doesn't know that I found where she hid it!

https://i.imgur.com/h3PQzjB.jpg?1

:bigsmyl2:

[dverna]

I did not see Charlie trying to compete with the best but to be better than he was. I see how that is fun as I am going down a similar path but with a PCP rifle because I will not spend $20/box for match ammunition.

My desires are different than most. I plain enjoy shooting but I am cheap. If I get 1" groups at 50 yards with an air rifle I will be OK with that. My goal is to do better, but getting better is part of the fun...unless it becomes an obsession.

[303Guy]

My aim is to compete with myself. That's it. Just get the best I can do with what I've got. One of my challenges is to shoot with open sights and see just what I can do. Now I'm wondering whether my eyes are up to it. But, I have found that the rear notch if it's just right and in just the right place, allows me to see the target and front post just nicely, so I'll be trying that out next session.

One of my rifles has a terrible trigger. I should work on it but I've been lazy. However, I find it quite challenging to shoot groups with this rifle and am tempted to leave just like it is for that reason. I know how accurate it is and The scope is reasonable for my eyes so I know its me when it doesn't perform. That's the fun part.

Then I have something to look forward yo - mounting that aperture sight and going down that rabbit hole! I just have to pic up the material to make the mount.

Then of course there is the fun of following OS on his quest. :Fire:

[tazman]

I did not see Charlie trying to compete with the best but to be better than he was. I see how that is fun as I am going down a similar path but with a PCP rifle because I will not spend $20/box for match ammunition.

My desires are different than most. I plain enjoy shooting but I am cheap. If I get 1" groups at 50 yards with an air rifle I will be OK with that. My goal is to do better, but getting better is part of the fun...unless it becomes an obsession.

I saw a guy at the bench rest range a few months ago on a nice day with a top end PCP air rifle doing bench rest at 50 yards. The rest he was using was more elaborate than the one OS has.
I don't remember the name of the rifle or scope he was using now. I do remember looking up the value just out of curiosity. It was around $2500. His scope was also expensive by my standards.
The guy was good. He was shooting a large target with lots of individual rings with tiny dots for an aiming point in the center and he rarely missed it.
Of course he has his own compressor for his air cylinders. No idea what that costs.
He was using Eley Tenex match pellets.

Bench rest air rifle can be just as expensive as rimfire match if you let it.

[dverna]

Taz,

I am more along the lines of what Charlie was trying to accomplish in his original thread. An accurate platform that is fun to shoot and I can use to do some critter control. I am not constraining myself to iron sights. There are no aspirations to shoot PCP’s competitively. My investment is less than $2000 for the rifle, sights and tank.

I fired my first four shots this afternoon to see how loud it is. It sure is pleasant not to need hearing protection or pick up spent cases. If the weather holds up, I will sight it in and start the journey.

[tazman]

dverna---- Good luck with your journey. If you are going to post a thread about it, post a link so I can follow it.
Thanks.

[OS OK]

I saw a guy at the bench rest range a few months ago on a nice day with a top end PCP air rifle doing bench rest at 50 yards. The rest he was using was more elaborate than the one OS has.
I don't remember the name of the rifle or scope he was using now. I do remember looking up the value just out of curiosity. It was around $2500. His scope was also expensive by my standards.
The guy was good. He was shooting a large target with lots of individual rings with tiny dots for an aiming point in the center and he rarely missed it.
Of course he has his own compressor for his air cylinders. No idea what that costs.
He was using Eley Tenex match pellets.

Bench rest air rifle can be just as expensive as rimfire match if you let it.

tazman . . . I am shocked, there's no brass or priming compound or powder ... none, this is ridiculous!

https://i.imgur.com/bO2Pbni.jpg

[tazman]

Check the pellet counts in each box. 450pcs if I remember correctly. Not as expensive per pellet as you might think, just looking at the boxes.

[barrabruce]

Tasman I don’t know how many boxes in a pallet but one bloke will happily lay down $5-6k on a particular lot/machine date probably twice as much

I don’t shoot comps but did score for a few ibr state shoots.

It seems a very stressful pursuit.
I wouldn’t call it a sport and there don’t seem to be as much sportsmanship in it.

I think I’ll stick to shooting for "stihs and giggles" as Americans say.

[tazman]

I won't be doing the high end bench rest shooting either. I couldn't afford it anyway.
The ARA ( American Rimfire Association) has what they call a "factory class". It actually restricts what can be done with a rifle and how much that rifle can cost.
As I currently read the rules, the rifle must retail for less than $1000. Any scope you want to use.
No modifications of any kind to the rifle other than trigger. No bedding changes. No tuners allowed.
Any ammunition you want to use as long as it is 22lr.

This makes things affordable(barely) and competitive for people who can't afford the high dollar guns.

They have an unlimited class as well where anything goes, so they have competitions for both types.

[OS OK]

dverna . . . I can't wait to see you get started with that air rifle. But...at the price of those pellets I think I'd be looking up a good mould and casting my own, perfecting that skill also and making it part of the quest for excellence.

303guy . . . I get it about being lazy from time to time but you have been threatening to do that build long enough now, get on board with dverna and get'er started! :bigsmyl2:

taz . . . As usual, I didn't read the fine print ... I was assuming again, we know what that does.

OK for today, I decided I'd use the last of my ammo shooting 'Bare Barrel'...I kinda like the looks of her without that big blob of metal on the muzzle anyway. I figure I'll learn something more doing this and today I had me an idea about lubes, this 'Match' paraffin wax & 'tenex' beeswax tallow...maybe they don't get along following each other in the barrel?

I did a 'hi-tech' mod to the bench today...I stiffened her up a bit more against my leaning sideways against it. It worked...

https://i.imgur.com/HBvNRq8.jpg

Here's today's work...clean chamber and dirty barrel...I was plesantly surprised with the 'Match' Eley and totally blown over by the 'tenex'..what the hey?
It wasn't my sending them or the wind getting gusty, I shot when the wind was dropping back to the 4+mph level...

https://i.imgur.com/5W0zaMP.jpg

If you notice the the targets below, I think I see something happening that can't be blamed on me or rifle or ammo...

https://i.imgur.com/klEiHlx.jpg

Tuesday the barrel got wet swabbed and I ran the 'Match' in it, the following day I ran the 'tenex' folowed by 'Match' & nothing looked any good.
Now today I run the 'match' again and the groups are much better. When I went with the 'tenex' at the end of the session everything went to Hades in a hand-basket quick!
I think I'm having a problem mixing the two lubes without a wet swabbing and the barrel seasoning itself with the ammo I use afterwards. There's no other explanation I can think of for this sequence of several days and the changing of the groups so drastically with this ammo.

I don't know, just have my theory going on this...I'll have to listen to you guys that have 'Been there & Done that' before I can determine, I'm not sure I have all the facts about switching lubes.

I finally got a picture through the scope showing how the cross-hairs meld with the pencil marks when they're aligned. See how the horizontal is almost missing and see the vertical, almost thinner than the pencil lines...

https://i.imgur.com/bAOfqXY.jpg

[dverna]

Charlie,

I approach my quest with a few trepidations. Even with .22 pellets, I am using a very light projectile that will be very susceptible to wind....and I am lousy shooting in the wind. The best match pellets are in .177. When you posted those pictures of Eley pellets, I was excited....but they are not offered in .22 cal.

The pluses working for me are first. Match grade pellets can be had. For $20/500....10 times the number of shots of a box of .22 match. Second, Pellets are still obtainable so less of a supply issue.

As to your situation, one wild idea to consider. Would using BLL applied over the factory lube be worth playing with. I am considering experimenting with that concept with pellets. It is my understanding that in air rifles a difference as little as .0005” will affect accuracy.

[tazman]

dverna----- Your suggestion about adding a lube coating to some ammunition is interesting.
I have heard reports from handgunners that for target shooting with 38 special, having less lube was more accurate. I have also heard that insufficient lube causes no end of problems. I have never heard reports that "too much boolit lube" has been a serious problem as far as accuracy is concerned.
Your idea will need to be tested to find out how that works out.
I have some ammo, made by RWS, that has an oily lube on it. So much so that after handling it, my fingers are very slick with it.
Might be interesting to dip the boolit in a cup of BLL or transmission fluid before the shot and see if it made a difference.

Never having made any BLL, I have a question. Does BLL dry on the surface after application and sitting for a while?

I once asked a competitive air rifle shooter how often he cleaned his barrel. His response was he only ran a dry patch down the barrel occasionally and never oiled it or lubed it in any way. He claimed that oiling the barrel of an air rifle would destroy the accuracy of the rifle until the barrel was completely dried out, possibly taking many, many shots to do even after dry patching.
This conversation took place 30 years ago so things have probably changed since then. I haven't shot competitive air rifle ever so cannot say if he was right or wrong. Just relating a conversation I once had.

[OS OK]

March of last year I tried the Imperial Sizing Wax on the noses of some Federal Gold Match (miserable ammo!) and it didn't seem to help...but I don't recall doing any chrony work to see what it might show.

https://i.imgur.com/QZW0aOB.jpg

It didn't help the problem I had...'old eyes & iron sights' @ 50 yds. don't dance well together.

[303Guy]

It didn't help the problem I had...'old eyes & iron sights' @ 50 yds. don't dance well together.
Sounds familiar. [smilie=1:

I got myself a reflex sight which I finally fitted to the 510 (I fitted a scope rail and tried the relfex) and what I found was a bit disappointing. I'm getting a double image just like with a scope. Anyway, I took that off and fitted the scope. The cross hair seems to have a step at the cross. Need to go see the eye specialist!

[tazman]

I am also optically challenged. I turn 70 in a few months and the eyes just don't work like they used to.
As few as 5 years ago, I could use a reflex sight with no issues. Not so now.
I also have to adjust my scopes quite a bit to get clear focus on the crosshairs and target both.
Iron sights are difficult at best. I can see the sights without my glasses but not the target. With my glasses, I can see the target but not the sights.
For handguns, I can still see the target well enough without my glasses ti hit reasonably well. With a rifle, the target it too far away for that to work.

I am due for a new set of glasses. I am going to discuss the issue with her and see what solutions she can provide.

[OS OK]

My right eye got damaged when I was a kid, sword-fighting the neighbor. So it's always been on the left eye to get me by.
Prolly 3 years ago now, the wife & I both looked into the cataract surgery and got that done...what a world of difference.
It's truly a Blessing from God above to experience mediocre eyes all your life and suddenly he gives you good vision! What an experience.

I got a lens installed that I could focus both far and near and it worked out...by golly, I now can read the print on a vitamin bottle and see really well at distance with the help of the lowest power lens, they make the image very sharp...didn't know what I've been missing all my life.

If you guys can get help with your vision then get on it!
I can't imagine life today without being able to shoot, make boolits and stuff'em in the brass!

[OS OK]

I got an answer about the 'incompatible lubes suspicion' I posted in #167 above.
It came from another forum and close friend, Eli said...


mr.revolverguy
Reply to CharlieBrassStuffer

Charlie now that is good data and to me proves what I have said all along. You can’t mix lube which is why I shoot at least 20 rounds to recoat the barrel.
If you remember almost a year ago I was running a wet patch and two dry patches between switching ammo and MAN they came out of the wood works even had a professional shooter contact me who I will not name said... "dude just fire spotters until the group tightens up, this way you do not run the risk of damaging the barrel". He said... "no professionals he knows does that routine"... he was very nice and was trying to help. He is a BIG NAME in the small bore game.
Having said that he and I both agreed that the 'mixing of lube' in the barrel does not materially hurt anything but it absolutely impacts group size on target and attributed to many flyers.
He went on to say... ''the reason for not cleaning was it would take more rounds to season a clean barrel than if you were to fire the new rounds on top until your groups started to tighten back up''.
He said I have minimized my risk with using a pull thru system but anytime you clean a barrel there is risk involved.

Thank you Eli for your quick response to this question.

[dverna]

Tazman,
BLL dries and is not sticky or gooey. If I were to try it, I would do 100 pellets and let them dry at least 24 hrs. I have never hear of lube on air gun pellets and for sure if cannot be like our traditional lubes....they would make a mess. Something like BLL or Hi-Tek might be interesting.

The only reason I mentioned BLL to Charlie is that it will apply over whatever in on the bullets now and dry.

I intend to clean my air gun barrel with cleaning pellets that are shot out of the barrel. These things:

https://www.airgundepot.com/rws-22cleaningpellets.html

Unlike other barrels, pellet barrels are made of soft steel and easily damaged. But this is way off topic....so back to regularly scheduled programing...

[dverna]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?422729-Dipping-my-toes-into-PCP-Air-Guns&p=5159751#post5159751

Charlie/Taz

Above is the link you requested to the thread I started on my PCP rifle journey. Now I can stop throwing this thread off kilter...LOL But will keep checking in to see you are doing. Good luck!!

[OS OK]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?422729-Dipping-my-toes-into-PCP-Air-Guns&p=5159751#post5159751

Charlie/Taz

Above is the link you requested to the thread I started on my PCP rifle journey. Now I can stop throwing this thread off kilter...LOL But will keep checking in to see you are doing. Good luck!!

Thanks Don, I was hoping that would turn up soon!

[tazman]

https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?422729-Dipping-my-toes-into-PCP-Air-Guns&p=5159751#post5159751

Charlie/Taz

Above is the link you requested to the thread I started on my PCP rifle journey. Now I can stop throwing this thread off kilter...LOL But will keep checking in to see you are doing. Good luck!!

Thanks. Looks like you are off to a good start.

[OS OK]

I've been a stranger here for a while, been working the MKII in the other thread... https://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?411925-New-to-using-a-PEEP-amp-GLOBE-at-50-yards

I am down to maybe 1 box of good ammo for this rifle....had a chance today to add 10 bricks of the good stuff but it was all sold before the shopping cart could process my order.
Even though I responded to their e-mail notification within seconds of receiving it I still lost out again...second time. Their computer bogs down under the sudden influx of orders and goes into a crawl...it's maddening.

So...I still want to shoot and went by the LGS and picked up a box of bulk ammo, it's all they had...(it's bad juju ammo :bigsmyl2:)

https://i.imgur.com/o5I8Nxw.jpg

I thought I'd do a test today to set the accuracy bar with this stuff before I started practicing so I would be realistic in my expectations...

https://i.imgur.com/UtW27yg.jpg

Yah...it ain't a pretty sight. I don't like ammo at this speed, it always drops back to sub-sonic at the target...I chrono'd it at the muzzle and then placed the chrono in front of the target to get those numbers.
Besides the sonic issue it has lousy ES & SD's ... interesting how those numbers agree on both ends of the range.

https://i.imgur.com/KLMde6D.jpg

It was looking pretty hopeful in that first 4" black target to the left...that's the first 10 shots on a clean 'wet mopped' barrel...looked like the ammo was going to season the bore pretty quickly but it started scattering on the next target to the right. It did settle some but it didn't settle in the 75 shots today.
Maybe it'll season the bore in upcoming target sessions but I have my doubts. We'll see soon as this is pretty much all I have to work with now.

[OS OK]

GOOD NEWS, were back in business after all!

Got another e-mail from Eley this morning, they had Match, I gave it a try for 30 boxes and scored! By next week I'll have it...that just makes my day! Thank You Jesus! :bigsmyl2:

Just check their web-page, looks like they are still in stock... https://www.killoughshootingsports.com/eley-ammunition/220-2314-eley-match-rimfire-cartridges-tx-warehouse.html#/1095-lot_number_match_tx-1021_010081054

[303Guy]

Great news, OS! [smilie=w:

Getting back to a previous question on lubing or re-lubing boolits, those blazers might be a good candidate for experimenting. A thought that I have had is lubing the cases as well. It might do nothing, it might be detrimental or it might show an improvement. My theory is that lubing the cases might keep case to chamber wall friction constant under firing. Oily boolit lube we find on match ammo probably does just that but whether it has any influence would be the question.

Anyway, I found some Imperial Sizing Wax the other day to experiment with.

It would be interesting to see how that blazer ammo shoots at 25 yds (or some distance before it goes transonic).

I might just move to the 100m range at my next range session to get a comparison.

[303Guy]

My ammo has just arrived. It's a funny thing, the seller was offering 250 rnds or multiples at a price per 250 or 1000 rnds at a better price and only one box left, which I bought. Turns out it's two 500 rnd bricks! So I got a thousand - all's good!

[OS OK]

My ammo has just arrived. It's a funny thing, the seller was offering 250 rnds or multiples at a price per 250 or 1000 rnds at a better price and only one box left, which I bought. Turns out it's two 500 rnd bricks! So I got a thousand - all's good!

"Thumbs up in that 303Guy"...taz scored some fodder too.
Who would have thought that getting .22lr would turn into this?

Makes me determined more than ever to make every shot count...

[303Guy]

Makes me determined more than ever to make every shot count...
I like that one. Make every shot count!

[tazman]

"Thumbs up in that 303Guy"...taz scored some fodder too.
Who would have thought that getting .22lr would turn into this?

Makes me determined more than ever to make every shot count...


Just looked at the site and they are all sold out again.
I hope I can make these last until they get more in and I get more money.

[OS OK]

Just looked at the site and they are all sold out again.
I hope I can make these last until they get more in and I get more money.

I want to score this 'Contact' ... this stuff goes really fast!

https://i.imgur.com/kDUpD3V.jpg

If the quality is still there since this testing was done with the machine rest, this should be awesome for practice!

https://i.imgur.com/d3kD94Q.jpg

[dtknowles]

I want to score this 'Contact' ... this stuff goes really fast!

https://i.imgur.com/kDUpD3V.jpg

If the quality is still there since this testing was done with the machine rest, this should be awesome for practice!

https://i.imgur.com/d3kD94Q.jpg

I think that ammo would be fine for practice, I don't know about awesome. The actual group sizes are larger than advertised, they must be measured and reported in a different than typical manner

I checked one and it is not in the low 30s more like the low to mid 40s

281882

281884
Tim

[OS OK]

I think that ammo would be fine for practice, I don't know about awesome. The actual group sizes are larger than advertised, they must be measured and reported in a different than typical manner

I checked one and it is not in the low 30s more like the low to mid 40s

281882

281884
Tim

Good catch Tim . . . A feller can get a bad rep. for under-reporting groups like that, leaving out the distance shot or just showing small portions of a bull and not showing all the fliers everywhere...exactly the the thing I want to avoid.
I'd rather err against myself than to make folks think I'm trying to be something I ain't!

Still though...for the price of the contact, I think I could definitely live with that performance. No wonder it's always gone in a flash!

[OS OK]

Down to one box of Match & a storm is moving in . . . So...I had me an idea?

https://i.imgur.com/sBt6Xyn.jpg

While I have the time before the storm...I thought I might clean that CZ's barrel with a wet mop & dry it and clean that chamber and get ahead of the curve a little. Next week that order of Eley Match arrives at my FFL, so...why not get the barrel seasoned up and ready to fly when the ammo arrives?
I thought too, that it'd be a good time to watch the first 50 shots as the barrel 'seasons in' from the wet mopped barrel and just see what I might see?

I used the Poppa's Rest so I could eliminate as much as I can, all the err I might put into this observation...that rest is a tall one, I had to add sand bags to my stool & my arm rest...

https://i.imgur.com/X7hPeqd.jpg

Anyway...here's what I got...

https://i.imgur.com/RVppTnz.jpg

After packing everything in before the rain caught me on the bench, I sat in the shop & measured up the groups.
As usual...I'll crack a cold beer and just study what happened, study how the groups started out tight on the warmer spot (that's unusual), then started meandering around the POA.
The POI is adjusted to hit next to the vertical on the left and above the horizontal...just almost touching those lines but intentionally 'not obliterating' the cross in the 1" circle. When that blows out it gets a little more difficult to align my cross-hairs in the scope with the lines on the target.

I have been thinking a lot about how the barrel oscillates when the shot is fired.
Does it wiggle around in a circle and settle back to it's static position before the shot was fired...or...does it wiggle around in a figure 8? That's been something I've wondered about when I was doing the 'tuner testing' with the 2 shot groups. This I am not sure of & haven't read or seen anything definitive about barrel oscillations. For as many opinions I have read or watched on a video, there seems to be a different account of what happens. I have seen the ultra slo-motion of an AR barrel filmed from the side and could see it whip up and down but it does not show any side to side compound reaction. That leaves me wondering about it.

Anyway, I thought...if you drew a circle around the main body of the group, encompassing where the majority of the rounds hit & taking into consideration where several rounds share the same hole...you might be able to see where the barrel was pointing in a general sense for that group.
I think the groups meander around as the barrel heats from the sunlight directly on the steel & from the heat generated from within the barrel. I think this ongoing heating changes the way the barrel reacts to the groups as this heat builds up to where it tends to maintain some kind of equilibrium?
Yah...I know, that's a mouth full to consider but bear me out...

I drew circles around where I think the aggregate/average centers of each group is in each spot. I thought that smaller circle might show me where that bull barrel might be point for those 5 shots. Then looking at the progression of the 10, 5-shot spots I shot, it might help to explain this meandering of the groups?
Here's what I got...

https://i.imgur.com/fUQi16t.jpg

Notice how the last 5 shot groups on the right side tend to show the barrel pointing more or less in conjunction with where the POI has been previously adjusted. I am thinking that the barrel had started to maintain some semblance of 'heat equilibrium' for the conditions I had today. It was 50ºƒ this morning and because of the cloud cover I had no effect of heating from the direct sunlight, just the interior heating from the rounds fired.

I still can't be sure of the barrels reactions to the harmonics, whether it moves around in a circle, a vertical oval or a figure 8 but I am certain it is moving and that the amount of heat in the barrel determines where the barrel is pointing when that projectile leaves the muzzle.

Now I am not saying..."this is what is happening" by any means...just posturing a few thoughts.
I am definitely interested in what you fellas think, if you actually think about barrel harmonics and have some theories of your own...I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just spitballing from what test we have seen thus far in this thread and the thread about the 'peep & globe' on the Sav. MKII.

[dtknowles]

Down to one box of Match & a storm is moving in . . . So...I had me an idea?

https://i.imgur.com/sBt6Xyn.jpg

While I have the time before the storm...I thought I might clean that CZ's barrel with a wet mop & dry it and clean that chamber and get ahead of the curve a little. Next week that order of Eley Match arrives at my FFL, so...why not get the barrel seasoned up and ready to fly when the ammo arrives?
I thought too, that it'd be a good time to watch the first 50 shots as the barrel 'seasons in' from the wet mopped barrel and just see what I might see?

I used the Poppa's Rest so I could eliminate as much as I can, all the err I might put into this observation...that rest is a tall one, I had to add sand bags to my stool & my arm rest...

https://i.imgur.com/X7hPeqd.jpg

Anyway...here's what I got...

https://i.imgur.com/RVppTnz.jpg

After packing everything in before the rain caught me on the bench, I sat in the shop & measured up the groups.
As usual...I'll crack a cold beer and just study what happened, study how the groups started out tight on the warmer spot (that's unusual), then started meandering around the POA.
The POI is adjusted to hit next to the vertical on the left and above the horizontal...just almost touching those lines but intentionally 'not obliterating' the cross in the 1" circle. When that blows out it gets a little more difficult to align my cross-hairs in the scope with the lines on the target.

I have been thinking a lot about how the barrel oscillates when the shot is fired.
Does it wiggle around in a circle and settle back to it's static position before the shot was fired...or...does it wiggle around in a figure 8? That's been something I've wondered about when I was doing the 'tuner testing' with the 2 shot groups. This I am not sure of & haven't read or seen anything definitive about barrel oscillations. For as many opinions I have read or watched on a video, there seems to be a different account of what happens. I have seen the ultra slo-motion of an AR barrel filmed from the side and could see it whip up and down but it does not show any side to side compound reaction. That leaves me wondering about it.

Anyway, I thought...if you drew a circle around the main body of the group, encompassing where the majority of the rounds hit & taking into consideration where several rounds share the same hole...you might be able to see where the barrel was pointing in a general sense for that group.
I think the groups meander around as the barrel heats from the sunlight directly on the steel & from the heat generated from within the barrel. I think this ongoing heating changes the way the barrel reacts to the groups as this heat builds up to where it tends to maintain some kind of equilibrium?
Yah...I know, that's a mouth full to consider but bear me out...

I drew circles around where I think the aggregate/average centers of each group is in each spot. I thought that smaller circle might show me where that bull barrel might be point for those 5 shots. Then looking at the progression of the 10, 5-shot spots I shot, it might help to explain this meandering of the groups?
Here's what I got...

https://i.imgur.com/fUQi16t.jpg

Notice how the last 5 shot groups on the right side tend to show the barrel pointing more or less in conjunction with where the POI has been previously adjusted. I am thinking that the barrel had started to maintain some semblance of 'heat equilibrium' for the conditions I had today. It was 50ºƒ this morning and because of the cloud cover I had no effect of heating from the direct sunlight, just the interior heating from the rounds fired.

I still can't be sure of the barrels reactions to the harmonics, whether it moves around in a circle, a vertical oval or a figure 8 but I am certain it is moving and that the amount of heat in the barrel determines where the barrel is pointing when that projectile leaves the muzzle.

Now I am not saying..."this is what is happening" by any means...just posturing a few thoughts.
I am definitely interested in what you fellas think, if you actually think about barrel harmonics and have some theories of your own...I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just spitballing from what test we have seen thus far in this thread and the thread about the 'peep & globe' on the Sav. MKII.

You don't say a word about the wind like it does not matter and is not contributing to what you see on the target. Do you use wind flags and how to you compensate or dope the wind?

Tim

[303Guy]

You've got two possible things happening - the sun warming the barrel and the wind cooling the barrel. Could those two factors be working against each other with the sun warming one side and the wind cooling the other side? Internal warming would be even but would add to the temperature difference due to wind. Or would it? The wind may have a much smaller effect in warmer weather. What I'm seeing is a shift of POI upwards. Wind cooling the underside of the barrel would lower the POI so maybe not. Unless it is more of a function of altering the harmonics.

Could the gusty wind be affecting groups? Wind wouldn't cause the POI to rise, I would think. Or would it?

I've shot at 200m with my hornet and the POI at 200m was too high to account for bullet drop. I was shooting up a gully with a bluff at the end with wing blowing up the gully, so the wind direction toward the bluff would have been upward. The wind was steady and the groups were not bad. Then again, the wind was quite strong.

[OS OK]

dtknowles . . . In the morning the wind is shifting from the night's flow down from the High Sierras into the Sacramento Valley (N to S), about the time I shoot (I shoot from E to W), the wind is turning around as the Valley heats up and will reverse it's course (S to N) so long as there's no major weather front affecting that. At times I even have a couple hour lul in the wind in the mornings and it's dead flat. Mostly in the summer I see that occur.
I have a wind flag at the backstop...in this picture it's blowing North at 5 mph steady...

https://i.imgur.com/KLMde6D.jpg

and one at 25 yards on my side of the house...this is a picture of the 50 yard bench before I got any of these new rifles or set up the backstop like it is above. You can see how the house buffers half of the distance.

https://i.imgur.com/gzRNEhP.jpg



My house blocks the wind...buffers the wind for the part in front of the backstop which is about 60 feet (there's a 15' space between the far end of the house before the backstop starts) I can read full value wind there as long as the wind is 90º to the range, the wind just slips by the far end of the house. So the wind factor is usually only 50% of the affects you'd note from the targets direction and speed.

Since the wind is almost negligent most days, when it's under 5 or 6, I just ignore and don't compensate. I figure I'll learn to read the wind by whatever effects I observe on the target. As far as the gusts, most of the time they give me plenty of time to pull a shot off since I can hear my flagpole rattling and the wind in the tops of the pines as it builds. It'll blow & gust for a couple minutes and then settle back to the wind of the day.
Often times, like today...after a gust goes through it'll give me about a 2 minute lul, dead or almost dead flat.
Living on this ridge is a little strange...it ain't like the flats. Here I have a valley on both sides of the property.

[OS OK]

303Guy . . . This heat in the barrel is just my speculation trying to understand the meandering groups. As the dynamics of a partially heated barrel change from the cool state of the night to the sun heated and combustion heated condition of use...I think it changes how it responds to the harmonics because of that constantly changing temperature....that affects the direction that it whips or circles or whatever the heck it's doing during the harmonic pressure waves traversing it's length, but it's moving.
Those pressure waves go back and fourth several times before the projectile exits the muzzle. Where that barrel is pointing when it does exit is anyone's guess unless you can either film it in ultra slo-mo or plot it according to where the mean average of the groups are meandering. That's what I was postulating with the small circles above.

As far as your distance that you are shooting and the confusing drop...when you shoot up or down at an angle, say 100 yards...depending on the angle of the line of fire, you are not really shooting where gravity affects the entire 100 yards, it only affects the distance of the 'base of a triangle' that represents the up or downhill angle you shoot (the hypotenuse).
It may well go 100 yards from muzzle to target but gravity doesn't work on it like it was a flat out 100 yards across a level plain. If I understand what your saying, you are overshooting the target because of the gravity working on it for a much less distance than of the actual shot...

https://i.imgur.com/0WRaedT.jpg

Your sight distance should be the length of the base of the triangle.

[dtknowles]

dtknowles . . . In the morning the wind is shifting from the night's flow down from the High Sierras into the Sacramento Valley (N to S), about the time I shoot (I shoot from E to W), the wind is turning around as the Valley heats up and will reverse it's course (S to N) so long as there's no major weather front affecting that. At times I even have a couple hour lul in the wind in the mornings and it's dead flat. Mostly in the summer I see that occur.
I have a wind flag at the backstop...in this picture it's blowing North at 5 mph steady...

https://i.imgur.com/KLMde6D.jpg

and one at 25 yards on my side of the house...this is a picture of the 50 yard bench before I got any of these new rifles or set up the backstop like it is above. You can see how the house buffers half of the distance.

https://i.imgur.com/gzRNEhP.jpg



My house blocks the wind...buffers the wind for the part in front of the backstop which is about 60 feet (there's a 15' space between the far end of the house before the backstop starts) I can read full value wind there as long as the wind is 90º to the range, the wind just slips by the far end of the house. So the wind factor is usually only 50% of the affects you'd note from the targets direction and speed.

Since the wind is almost negligent most days, when it's under 5 or 6, I just ignore and don't compensate. I figure I'll learn to read the wind by whatever effects I observe on the target. As far as the gusts, most of the time they give me plenty of time to pull a shot off since I can hear my flagpole rattling and the wind in the tops of the pines as it builds. It'll blow & gust for a couple minutes and then settle back to the wind of the day.
Often times, like today...after a gust goes through it'll give me about a 2 minute lul, dead or almost dead flat.
Living on this ridge is a little strange...it ain't like the flats. Here I have a valley on both sides of the property.

You don't come right out and say it but is seems you wind dope is to shoot in the lulls. That works if you can get enough calm to get your groups. Where I shoot it irarely calm but I pick a condition and only shoot when my flags indicate my chosen condition. I can change conditions between groups if my chosen condition come less often than I like.

Tim

[tazman]

You don't come right out and say it but is seems you wind dope is to shoot in the lulls. That works if you can get enough calm to get your groups. Where I shoot it irarely calm but I pick a condition and only shoot when my flags indicate my chosen condition. I can change conditions between groups if my chosen condition come less often than I like.

Tim

I am a tyro when it comes to reading the wind and what it foes to bullets. I have a basic knowledge of what to expect from a side wind but not from a front wind or tailing wind. Or even a quartering wind, for that matter.
From what you are saying, you look at how things are going and set up for the most prevalent circumstances and only take your shots when those circumstances are in effect.
My problem is going to be the competition I am intending to pursue has a time limit and I may need to take shots when other conditions arise. I need to know how to compensate.
I currently do not have this knowledge.

Since I was an Olympic style archer(lobbing arrows 90 meters to a target), I know how to aim off if I know what the projectile is going to do. I just don't know what is happening here for certain.
Do you know of a good text or video that explains what happens when the winds change or swirl? Particularly as it relates to using a 22lr at 50-100 yards.

[OS OK]

tazman . . . Here's an article I found over on the https://www.killoughshootingsports.com/blog/post/target-shooting-tips-reading-the-wind website...pretty short and sweet.

https://i.imgur.com/5g7BJqV.jpg

My favorite part of the article is this... [ The above calculations are dependent on what type of flag(tail) you are using and a heavier material will require more wind velocity to move it than a lighter material will require. It is best to determine how much bullet movement you have with (your) flag at a certain angle and save the math for later. ]

This is what I am doing, my range is different from one that doesn't have a house buffering 1/2 the range, my flags read entirely different speeds of the wind because they are engineers tape, super lightweight....so what I learn here will have to be learned over again or modified somewhat should I ever shoot on a range that is wide open.

So far wind has not been my primary objective although it's not entirely like Tim says above. I don't wait for lulls and then shoot, I will wait for a minute or so but I like to keep my pace going even and steady so when the wind on my flag says 5 mph, I simply ignore it.
I think what I've learned from observation thus far is that a 5 mph wind at full value here is about equal to one boolit width right or left in 50 yards.

This is a subject that I think will be beneficial to everyone.
This summer will be an opportune time to pick the wind conditions I want and shoot when I have a steady & stronger wind to work with...then start the data collection on this exercise.
In the meantime, I'll start shopping for an affordable wind meter to measure actual conditions here. I use windy.com to get my weather forecast each day...the actual weather center measuring this is a mile north of me and 600' higher in elevation. It's close to right for here I'm sure but we want to know exactly collecting data.

I'll probably have to find another wind flag material that will require more wind than 5 mph to hold it straight out at 90º to the staff...the summer breeze can get pretty stiff up here.

[303Guy]

Actually, OS, what I was meaning is that the wind was from behind me blowing into the gully and up the bluff at the end, resulting in an upward wind on the bullet. I was shooting horizontally. There is actually a small waterfall off that bluff at the end of the gully. I measured the distance with a GPS. That rifle was zeroed at 160m so should have shot low at 200m, but didn't. The wind can do strange things! My mate with his 17 HMR gave up on it because of wind drift.

One day at a 100m range, a cross wind developed down range where we could not feel it. My shots drifted horizontally from my target sheet to my next target sheet. My target sheets being A4 sheets. The wind was picking up while I was shooting my group then it reached the benches. That was also the hornet. I seem to have lost those targets.

Makes me think of wind socks. They can be sort of read for wind speed.

[OS OK]

303Guy . . . It's funny how one fella can write something and another fella can read it and neither one of them know what the other fella is talking about! :bigsmyl2:
Sorry...my bad as they say....hahaaa

tazman . . . Here's another good article...this one is a little bit deeper. https://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/readingwind/

Reading the Wind — USAMU Tips

[tazman]

Thanks for the links. I have some studying to do.

[OS OK]

Thanks for the links. I have some studying to do.

Your welcome tazman . . . There's a couple images I've found also, not 'in depth' type material but interesting facts...

It matters with a right hand or left hand twist . . .
good article accompanying this drawing too >[ https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/vertical-deflection-for-pellets-in-crosswind/ ]

https://i.imgur.com/ofIAzhQ.jpg

Mirage for me is difficult to work with, I recon it just takes lots of practice & learning how to see it clearly in the scope...

https://i.imgur.com/Jvb7bat.jpg

I'm getting things together to do a wind study soon, ordered these this morning...these targets should make good examples of deflection shooting a single bullet at each target and noting the wind flag & wind speed on each separate target. These are the right size for my backstop opening.

https://i.imgur.com/37lD7B7.jpg

I need to find another material besides this engineers tape for a wind flag(s)...something I can use to change the 90º angle of the flag and what mph that equals.

https://i.imgur.com/EIuBG5U.jpg

Maybe glue or staple several layers together to make a thicker strip/heavier strip and with that wind meter calibrate it...may not get what I want exactly at the 90º reading but at least I'll know what that does equal.

[dtknowles]

I am a tyro when it comes to reading the wind and what it foes to bullets. I have a basic knowledge of what to expect from a side wind but not from a front wind or tailing wind. Or even a quartering wind, for that matter.
From what you are saying, you look at how things are going and set up for the most prevalent circumstances and only take your shots when those circumstances are in effect.
My problem is going to be the competition I am intending to pursue has a time limit and I may need to take shots when other conditions arise. I need to know how to compensate.
I currently do not have this knowledge.

Since I was an Olympic style archer(lobbing arrows 90 meters to a target), I know how to aim off if I know what the projectile is going to do. I just don't know what is happening here for certain.
Do you know of a good text or video that explains what happens when the winds change or swirl? Particularly as it relates to using a 22lr at 50-100 yards.

I am certainly not an expert at reading the wind. I can do complicated math but I don't put much stock in ballistics calcs. To many unaccounted for variables. If I want to know what the wind/mirage is going to do to a shot I shoot the sighter target. One way to beat the wind for groups is shoot fast before the condition can change. Shooting for score that is too hard for me, I can't change targets fast enough to get a whole string run in one condition.

I have never had luck holding off to compensate for the windage. I will use the windage adjustments on my scope. I want to keep the same POA as it is precise either a dot or cross. Maybe with something other than a fine crosshair you can use the windage marks on the reticle.

Tim

[303Guy]

Here I am still struggling to get decent groups with what I've got and now there's the wind to contend with! So far at my range I don't think the wind has been a factor, specially at 25m.

Out in the field the wind has been a factor and I had no idea how to cope with it. Once I did compensate for a strong cross wind. I aimed a bit to the left and hit a bit to the left - exactly where I aimed! :???:

I suppose now would be a good time to start paying attention to the wind and it's effects.

OS, this idea of using different materials for wind flags - a thought just came to mind, what about an anemometer?

https://i.postimg.cc/GhnP0PBs/anamometer.jpg (https://postimages.org/)https://i.postimg.cc/Vk3ZCPSJ/anemometer-2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

There are a range of them on amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Wind-Speed-Gauges/b?ie=UTF8&node=13825011

I think those are NZ dollar prices so would be about 75% in US dollars.

[tazman]

How about this?---https://www.killoughshootingsports.com/competition-wind-flags/115-besche-win-de-cator.html

281962

It gives you nearly everything.

[tazman]

I used to shoot Olympic style archery. Part of the program was 36 arrows shot at 90 meters(4 feet short of 100 yards).
We were required to use recurve bows so the arrows weren't going all that fast.
The wind would blow them around pretty well during the flight time to the target.
Once I was shooting at the range in Forest Park in St Louis Mo. The wind was always treacherous there due to the surrounding buildings.
There was no wind on the shooting line, The flags from 10 meters to 30 meters were blowing to the left, the flags from 40 meters to 60 meters were blowing to the right, the flags from 65 meters to 80 meters were blowing to the left again, and the flags at the targets were hanging straight sown indicating no wind at all.
Any of those flags would suddenly stop blowing at any given second and might start up again just as you released the arrow. Tough conditions.

[OS OK]

Here I am still struggling to get decent groups with what I've got and now there's the wind to contend with! So far at my range I don't think the wind has been a factor, specially at 25m.

Out in the field the wind has been a factor and I had no idea how to cope with it. Once I did compensate for a strong cross wind. I aimed a bit to the left and hit a bit to the left - exactly where I aimed! :???:

I suppose now would be a good time to start paying attention to the wind and it's effects.

OS, this idea of using different materials for wind flags - a thought just came to mind, what about an anemometer?

https://i.postimg.cc/GhnP0PBs/anamometer.jpg (https://postimages.org/)https://i.postimg.cc/Vk3ZCPSJ/anemometer-2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

There are a range of them on amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Wind-Speed-Gauges/b?ie=UTF8&node=13825011

I think those are NZ dollar prices so would be about 75% in US dollars.

I bought these this morning. Thanks though.

https://i.imgur.com/37lD7B7.jpg

Here's the plan:
* try to change the flags so that they read 10-15mph @ 90º deflection
*calibrate them @ 90º and calibrate several angles of them when they are not at 90º.
*Shoot one round per target and note the flags direction and mph on each target shot.
*Examine the results for how much deflection & POI of the rounds, I have a right hand twist in the CZ, evidently twist matters.

https://i.imgur.com/ofIAzhQ.jpg

See the article related to this chart above... https://hardairmagazine.com/ham-columns/vertical-deflection-for-pellets-in-crosswind/

Get that information digested and then try to shoot & compensate for the wind...see how that does?
It may take some time to get good wind data, I would think we'd want to see several sets of data for the same conditions to show the deflection is relatively accurate. I have that house sitting there buffering 25 yards of the range so my data will always have to depend on both flags here...me thinks?

Anyway that's the plan today, no telling what it'll be when I get to this experiment? Depends on Ya'll's ideas too.

[303Guy]

Aah! You were ahead of me. I should have guessed you would be. :mrgreen: That paddle and pointer gauge of tazman's would be the ticket I should think. And I'm thinking again (dangerous as that may be) if the paddle pointer wind gauge is fixed at 90° to the boolit path, then it should indicate the equivalent wind effect should the wind be other than 90°. Calibrated with your new instrument of course. Maybe?

[OS OK]

I'd like to keep it simple, I imagine that wind can be a very complicated problem at distance and varying winds.

Here on my range, if I can learn to read well enough to turn groups that I shoot at 3/4" and get them down to 1/2" I'll be tickled.

You have to remember, I'll wait on a gust for about a minute but if the wind is around 5mph or less, I've been ignoring it all together.

[tazman]

The wind drift is more than you might think. I used the Hornady ballistic calculator and figured for a 5 mph side wind. It said the drift would be .5 inch at 50 yards.
That's more than I thought it would be for sure. Not something you can just ignore.

[ulav8r]

The wind drift is more than you might think. I used the Hornady ballistic calculator and figured for a 5 mph side wind. It said the drift would be .5 inch at 50 yards.
That's more than I thought it would be for sure. Not something you can just ignore.

Yeah, but what will it be if the wind only affects the first 25 yards? I doubt any calculator will allow for that, they will only be correct if the wind is the same from the firing position to the target. Useful for showing what the affect "might" be but not an absolute solution.

[OS OK]

The wind drift is more than you might think. I used the Hornady ballistic calculator and figured for a 5 mph side wind. It said the drift would be .5 inch at 50 yards.
That's more than I thought it would be for sure. Not something you can just ignore.

I'm only being affected by the wind 1/2 the distance to the target, when the wind is N to S or vise versa.
I noticed sometime back that I thought a 5 mph wind was pushing my POI about the diameter of a bullet or roughly 1/4". Can't be sure of that though...at this point.

[tazman]

Yeah, but what will it be if the wind only affects the first 25 yards? I doubt any calculator will allow for that, they will only be correct if the wind is the same from the firing position to the target. Useful for showing what the affect "might" be but not an absolute solution.

I would expect about half that since he is dealing with wind only half the distance.
My problem is for the full distance on an exposed shooting range, not just half. Getting a tight group with a gusting wind of 5-15 mph id going to be tough unless I can learn to read the wind changes.
When that constant wind stops or changes direction, I need to know what it will do to the bullet. I have a time limit and can't wait long for the wind to do what I want.


I'm only being affected by the wind 1/2 the distance to the target, when the wind is N to S or vise versa.
I noticed sometime back that I thought a 5 mph wind was pushing my POI about the diameter of a bullet or roughly 1/4". Can't be sure of that though...at this point.

I think your observation would be correct, given your circumstances.

[OS OK]

tazman . . . How do you intend to train for these contests, concerning the wind?

What I am curious about is:
*will you incorporate some kind of exercise 'learning to read the wind' with 'actual logging of your dope' as you practice?

There's a couple of ways to approach this: (prolly more also)
1> do your normal practice and ignore the wind, except >...record wind direction & speed and plot shots on the target...then > after the shoot see what the actual results are?
Then come up with your scheme for doping the wind?
2> Follow someone else's method of reading/doping for the wind and apply this method to your practice, as you are practicing?
Then study the results and modify if necessary and reapply to the next practice?

It's starting to look like we need to first practice & shoot in 'steady conditions' first & learn how to read & dope. I think varying wind speeds or multiple wind directions on the range will end up in confusion.

[Conditor22]

Wind speed you can compensate for, wind gusts --- not so much

I read somewhere about people doing accuracy shooting IN a long warehouse (I think in texas) -- no wind

[sundog]

Secrets of the Houston Warehouse (http://2poqx8tjzgi65olp24je4x4n-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/secrets-of-the-houston-warehouse-by-dave-scott-precision-shooting-magazine-special-edition-1-1993.pdf)

This is a worthwhile read.

[tazman]

tazman . . . How do you intend to train for these contests, concerning the wind?

What I am curious about is:
*will you incorporate some kind of exercise 'learning to read the wind' with 'actual logging of your dope' as you practice?

There's a couple of ways to approach this: (prolly more also)
1> do your normal practice and ignore the wind, except >...record wind direction & speed and plot shots on the target...then > after the shoot see what the actual results are?
Then come up with your scheme for doping the wind?
2> Follow someone else's method of reading/doping for the wind and apply this method to your practice, as you are practicing?
Then study the results and modify if necessary and reapply to the next practice?

It's starting to look like we need to first practice & shoot in 'steady conditions' first & learn how to read & dope. I think varying wind speeds or multiple wind directions on the range will end up in confusion.

I am going to start putting some wind flags out between myself and the target and watching what they are doing while I am shooting.
If the wind suddenly changes, either direction or speed, I will shoot and see where the bullet goes. Hopefully, the POI movement will eventually become obvious and I can build a method in my mind about where I have to aim, under certain conditions, to get the POI I am after.
I may take notes and I may not. I will try to keep it in my mind for a while. If it gets too complex, I will need to write it down.
Not sure I will have time, during a competition, to use my notes much. I need to know how to do it without the notes.
I will still need the indicators to know what the wind is doing.

[OS OK]

I am going to start putting some wind flags out between myself and the target and watching what they are doing while I am shooting.
If the wind suddenly changes, either direction or speed, I will shoot and see where the bullet goes. Hopefully, the POI movement will eventually become obvious and I can build a method in my mind about where I have to aim, under certain conditions, to get the POI I am after.
I may take notes and I may not. I will try to keep it in my mind for a while. If it gets too complex, I will need to write it down.
Not sure I will have time, during a competition, to use my notes much. I need to know how to do it without the notes.
I will still need the indicators to know what the wind is doing.

I like your approach... but . . . I am going to go all out as best as I can just so I can show empirical data & hopefully get all of our brains evaluating together and coming up with some answers.
I would like to have the most simple way...this diagram gives me a basic understanding of what I can expect & should help me to determine whether my testing is actually showing a wind-deflection or a flier I may have created.

https://i.imgur.com/ofIAzhQ.jpg

and another . . .

https://i.imgur.com/2GktLJY.jpg

I just discovered articles on reading wind flags . . .

Using Wind Flags - Basics - Part 1
page 45 from this link > https://drive.google.com/file/d/19ggoLkMhs0Bci8q3hYXI2TOBoezB5MNJ/view

Using Wind Flags - Basics Part 2
page 50 from this link > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aQU1fgFWxlaBBM2kw1RhIwa_Al4ODJzs/view

Using Wind Flags - Basics Part 3
page 24 from this link > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OjjkYD7YmIyMog843BH8hhOkI67LzN5n/view

Let me know think what you guys get from this reading regarding simplifying the process?

[Forrest r]

Wind flags, wind charts, doping the wind only works if your firearm is setup correctly. It all starts with the action screws and a good torque wrench. On any rifle I plan on competing with or want to wring every last bit of accuracy I can out of it. I replace the action screws with allen headed screws. This target is a centerfire target but it shows just how much the torque settings on the hold down screws can affect the target.
https://i.imgur.com/wbsCOVj.jpg

On the right are 2 10-shot groups @ 100yds. The top group was shot with 40 inch #'s of torque and was 3 1/2" wide by 1 1/4" long. The bottom group was shot with 45 inch #'s of torque on the hold down screws and was 2 1/4" wide and 2" long.

You need round groups from your torque settings. It's nothing for me to check the torques on the hold down screws between set/cards.

Once the hold down screw Torques are established then it's time to test ammo over a chronograph on a calm day. Once the ammo I wanted to use was found thru testing I buy +/- 2 cases of that lot. Then I'd go back out on a calm day with that ammo and a chronograph and a zero the rifle. I used a scope with lockers and once the rifle was zero'd I lock the scope in.

A chronograph is your friend. Wind flags & wind meters are your friends.
Always shoot over a chronograph it will tell you if you had a bad round along with telling you if your firearm is getting consistent ignition. When practicing always aim at the center of the target. Record every shot on a plot paper marking where it hit on the target along with the speed (fps), wind direction & wind speed. Do this in different wind conditions and try to record at least 1000 shots.

Doing this gives you a baseline of what the wind will do with your rifle/ammo combo. You can make your own chart for doping the wind. I used to make mine like the clock 1 pictured in os ok's post. I would draw circles inside the clock like pictured above. The circles would be actual measurements of what the wind speed would do to that rifle/ammo combo I was using IE wind drift for 5mph, 10mph, 15mph.

Don't mean to be long winded but I can't stress it enough. It all starts with the hold down screw torques. Do you really think those hold down screws will have the same torque setting when you set your torques last week in a 70* house 2 weeks ago. Then went to the range in 80* weather and let the rifle sit in the sun for hour??

When your shooting gold balls @ 50yds it doesn't matter. When you're trying to do head shots on flies @ 50yds little things show up rather fast.

Myself, if I wanted to get back into this game I'd take my rifle for a 3 hour ride to lapua Down in columbus. They have a test center there (indoor tunnel). You give them your rifle and $100 and tell them what ammo your looking at buying. Go to lunch and come back or stay and watch. They will have test targets with the different lots of ammo they tested along with the es's & sd's of your rifle and their own testing of that ammo. Then it's a simple matter of buying 2 or 3 cases of that ammo.

Then it would be go to the range & get the torque setting, zero the rifle and get the wind dope card for that ammo. Then go out play with the big boys.

I do find it odd that there's been talk about holding the rifle the same every shot, pressures on the stock affecting groups, etc. But very little is said about torque wrenches. I used to use a snap-on 1/4" torque wrench and switched over to a wheeler fat wrench a decade ago.

A chronograph is a huge part of making sure your rifle is mechanically sound. More pointedly the bolt/fp hits. If I go to lapua and they test ammo and their test rifle does a 7fps sd and 14fps es with a specific lot of ammo and my rifle does 22fps sd and a 31fps es with the same ammo. That's called a clue, that rifle will never group well and those groups will never be to the same poa. I've bought a case of ammo in the past simply because it had extremely low sd's & es's. Could care less what it did on paper and burned most of it up without ever putting up a target. I used it to check for consistent ignition of a firearm over a chronograph. Bolts do get dirty, oils can and will affect fp hits. After cleaning and re assembling a bolt I would test it with that ammo to make sure everything was correct.

Anyway you'll be doing nothing more than spitting into the wind if you don't get everything else nailed down. Kind of hard saying I'm getting low right hits with a nw 10mph wind when you're getting the same off center hits on a calm day.

[tazman]

I like your approach... but . . . I am going to go all out as best as I can just so I can show empirical data & hopefully get all of our brains evaluating together and coming up with some answers.
I would like to have the most simple way...this diagram gives me a basic understanding of what I can expect & should help me to determine whether my testing is actually showing a wind-deflection or a flier I may have created.

https://i.imgur.com/ofIAzhQ.jpg

and another . . .

https://i.imgur.com/2GktLJY.jpg

I just discovered articles on reading wind flags . . .

Using Wind Flags - Basics - Part 1
page 45 from this link > https://drive.google.com/file/d/19ggoLkMhs0Bci8q3hYXI2TOBoezB5MNJ/view

Using Wind Flags - Basics Part 2
page 50 from this link > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1aQU1fgFWxlaBBM2kw1RhIwa_Al4ODJzs/view

Using Wind Flags - Basics Part 3
page 24 from this link > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OjjkYD7YmIyMog843BH8hhOkI67LzN5n/view

Let me know think what you guys get from this reading regarding simplifying the process?

There are a number of things about that wind drift chart that came as a surprise to me. Not intuitive at all. Perhaps I will need to write stuff down until I get more experience with it.

Forrest r-----Thanks for posting that. Very informative. I really had not thought to do the chronograph work with the 22lr other than to check for trans sonic episodes.
I have been testing the torque settings and came up with what seems to work for my rifle across the majority of ammunition I have available.

Given the rules of the particular discipline I hope to compete in(ARA Factory class), I can't modify my rifle except for a couple of very specific areas. Tuning the action is a no no. Bedding the action is a no no. Trigger adjustment and torque settings are okay.
Everything else must be done with ammo selection and technique.
Still, very good information to have. If I have an issue with the rifle, I may be able to diagnose it.

[tazman]

My Eley Match ammo arrived just now. Now I can get to some SERIOUS practice.

[OS OK]

My Eley Match ammo arrived just now. Now I can get to some SERIOUS practice.

Mine will arrive Thursday.
Got one box of ‘tenex’ left for a wind experiment with the MKII.

[Larry Gibson]

I shoot a monthly 100 yard BR 22LR match. Usually 8 - 12 shooters and the competition is tough as about 50% of them are also dedicated 50 yard BR shooters. We shoot on the 200 yard IBS hunter target. We use the inner ring (10 ring as the X ring and the 9 ring as the 10 ring. We shoot two relays with the bottom targets being spotter and then shoot 10 shots on two targets for score. We have 30 minutes to shoot them in but most are done in about 20 minutes then we score the first relay and then shoot the second relay. The match is almost always won by X count with several "400" scores. However, as the recent posts point out being able to judge the wind and hold for it is paramount to a good score.

Here is my scored target from the last match (sighters are left out). I shot bottom left then left top in first relay. The wind was from behind coming out of 4 - 6 o'clock but switching to 7 o'clock. It was running 6 - 10 mph but gusting higher occasionally and also dropping to almost 0 mph momentarily. I us an original Remington M37 made in the early '50s with no modification to it. I made a Weaver cantilever base with the base securing in the D&T'd original scope base holes on the barrel. I have a gen 2 Weaver T35 on it with fine crosshairs and small dot. I shoot Lapua Midas Match 22LR and in a clam or with no wind it is zeroed dead on POA to POI. During the first relay, based on the impact of 5 sighters, I held half way between the X and 10 ring [actual 10 and 9 ring on the target] at 3:30 - 4:00 o'clock. I did pretty well with a 200-18X on the first relay.

The second relay was not so good as the wind really picked up running 6 - 14 MPH with higher gusts and a lot of switching and dying. My first 10 shots for record (bottom right target) were ok but I almost got caught by a strong gust on the last shot. Then it really got dicey as the wind conditions worsened. From moans and groans down the line plus a couple expletive deletes I could tell some had dropped a point or two. I knuckled down and tried judging the best I could and almost got caught by a couple really strong gusts out of 5 'clock and once when the wind fell to 0 and the bullet hit right at point of aim (that 3:30 ten on the line....). I held it together for a 200-11X and a total score of 400-29X. That gave me 2nd place as the winner had 4 more Xs. Still the old M37 shot very well against the winners Anschutz with 45X NightForce BR scope along with him being an excellent shot.

282081

[M-Tecs]

There are a number of things about that wind drift chart that came as a surprise to me. Not intuitive at all. Perhaps I will need to write stuff down until I get more experience with it.



That chart reflects "spin drift" and that is dependent on right or left hand rifling if it has an effect at all. It's basically the bite of the bullets rotation verse the side pressure from the wind. Color me a sceptic on this one at least for centerfire rifle.

I don't play the RF BR or air BR games but I do shoot long range centerfire competition. When testing loads at 600 to 1,000 yard shooting waterline tests is used a lots to test test the ammunitions ability to hold elevation. I have not noted in difference in the waterline holding ability in switching condition or during a strong pickup. My goal is 3 inch's but reality is 5 inches is acceptable elevation holding at 1,000 yards for the games I play. I've had groups 3 feet wide that still held 3" elevation at a 1,000 yards??

Pellet rifle or rimfire might be more pronounced???

[303Guy]

Thanks for that write up Forrest r. It's too early in the morning or I'd go have a beer! :mrgreen: Or is it too early? [smilie=1:

Well, the way I see it, one of two things can happen - either my head will explode or I can have a lot of fun! :Fire:

I don't have a target rifle but I can still do what I can to wring out whatever the rifle is cable of. I'm planning to moving over to the 100m range on Sunday so I'll see how that goes. I'll spend the first part of the morning at 25m where I'll attempt to sight the rifle in for 100m. I'll just be playing with three rifles instead of the usual however many.

I was playing with JBM ballistics yesterday and looking at wind drift and boolit drop. It's amazing the difference HV makes. Anyway, what struck me was how quickly a HV boolit went transonic. I always thought it was around the 75m/yd mark. Nope - think 30-40 yds. Anyway, I have sub-sonic ammo. I checked the altitude/temperature effects and indeed, only temperature influences the speed of sound but altitude influences velocity drop quite a bit! So does temperature. The higher the temperature the less the bullet slows, likewise with altitude so at higher altitude and higher temperature, the reduction in bullet drag is significant. I'm at sea level so I have maximum velocity drop. At least altitude is constant but air temperature can change quite a bit during a shooting session. I've just realized - in winter it doesn't get warm in the day! How does rain affect bullet drift?

Edit to add: Nice shooting Larry!

[OS OK]

Thank you so very much Gentleman....M-Tecs & Larry Gibson for chiming in with your experience in .22lr BR. As you can see, this thread has been a 'huge learning curve' for several of us Neophytes...your information & data is so much appreciated!

I have been mulling on different ways to approach this 'Reading the Wind & Doping' ... up until now we haven't considered the wind at all and have been concerned with the technicalities of a sound rifle and matching the rifle with the best ammunition we could afford...next it was proper form & bench accessories to send the rounds as best as possible...but...now the wind has to be considered and mastered as well.

First thing I did was to build new wind flags from the heaviest engineers tape I have...made them 26" long with a reinforced swivel tab on top and approximately 24" of free ribbon to show the wind strength and direction. I put a spike in the bottom of an old broom handle and a screw in the top to hold the ribbon...

https://i.imgur.com/l4zpwIu.jpg

The spike in the bottom of the broom handle is to stab in the dirt...the broom handle has the ribbons elevated up maybe 12" over the height of my barrel on the bench...

https://i.imgur.com/iYjO4Zw.jpg

Today I don't have any method of judging wind velocity and don't have any proper targets to gather data on...but...they are on order & will arrive soon...

https://i.imgur.com/37lD7B7.jpg

Today, I had one box of 40 rounds left of the Eley 'tenex' & have been using that in the Savage MKII. (a 'peep & globe sighted rifle I have temporarily installed a scope on to find a benchmark of accuracy for that rifle, then I'll go back to the peep & globe) I thought I'd experiment with that rifle even though this thread is about my CZ452, I shoot Eley Match in the CZ and am flat out until tomorrow, got 3 bricks coming to my FFL.

Anyway...here's the follies for today...(I should mention that this MKII is currently sighted for the POI to hit a 1/4" high of the cross hairs of the target spot right on center line...that was set that way so I wouldn't obliterate the center of the spot and make it hard to align the scope, I intend to readjust the scope so that the POA will be the POI now that we are dealing with the wind)

https://i.imgur.com/qEHpDHB.jpg

I wanted to see if this right hand twist would duplicate any of the 'predicted POI's in the charts previously posted.
I had the bright idea that I might get away with shooting the first round on each spot with a POA on the cross marks of the target center.
Next note on the target the conditions of that first shot as far as the wind direction and strength of the wind indicated by the flag marks (look at my notes on the target top left, I think I explained how I marked the spots.
After the first shot I saw the deflection of that shot for the wind value (each first shot is marked -1 w/a line pointing to it's POI)...I simply went across the cross hairs on the opposite direction by the same amount of deflection (moved the POA against the wind direction indicated across the verticle line), left & right & over and under the horizontal. The small circles with the cross hairs in them is the 2'nd through 5'th POA for the group......I hope that makes sense.
Except for the one spot I ignored the wind, all were shot in that manner.
I was hoping that would account for the direction and speed if I were to try to shoot the remaining 4 with the same conditions as the first shot.

I thought i might get away with some easy way to read & dope without all the math involved that I've read about.
Well...it sorta didn't work.
As you can see on the spots (cross hairs of the targets) the flag directions and amplitude were sometimes in several directions...the only flag I could see when I was in the scope was the one nearest me at the bench, I can see it with my non scope eye.

https://i.imgur.com/rphQ6K8.jpg

THIS RABBIT HOLE JUST GOT A LOT DEEPER . . . I hope we together can figure this thing out?!

Note: One of the previous articles posted, mentions that a light .22lr projectile responds differently to the wind at sub sonic speed than our center-fires do as they are designed to help defeat the wind's influence in their weight and cruise missile shapes. There's a lot more they explained also...

[dtknowles]

Wind flags, wind charts, doping the wind only works if your firearm is setup correctly. It all starts with the action screws and a good torque wrench. On any rifle I plan on competing with or want to wring every last bit of accuracy I can out of it. I replace the action screws with allen headed screws. This target is a centerfire target but it shows just how much the torque settings on the hold down screws can affect the target.
https://i.imgur.com/wbsCOVj.jpg

On the right are 2 10-shot groups @ 100yds. The top group was shot with 40 inch #'s of torque and was 3 1/2" wide by 1 1/4" long. The bottom group was shot with 45 inch #'s of torque on the hold down screws and was 2 1/4" wide and 2" long.

You need round groups from your torque settings. It's nothing for me to check the torques on the hold down screws between set/cards.

Once the hold down screw Torques are established then it's time to test ammo over a chronograph on a calm day. Once the ammo I wanted to use was found thru testing I buy +/- 2 cases of that lot. Then I'd go back out on a calm day with that ammo and a chronograph and a zero the rifle. I used a scope with lockers and once the rifle was zero'd I lock the scope in.

A chronograph is your friend. Wind flags & wind meters are your friends.
Always shoot over a chronograph it will tell you if you had a bad round along with telling you if your firearm is getting consistent ignition. When practicing always aim at the center of the target. Record every shot on a plot paper marking where it hit on the target along with the speed (fps), wind direction & wind speed. Do this in different wind conditions and try to record at least 1000 shots.

Doing this gives you a baseline of what the wind will do with your rifle/ammo combo. You can make your own chart for doping the wind. I used to make mine like the clock 1 pictured in os ok's post. I would draw circles inside the clock like pictured above. The circles would be actual measurements of what the wind speed would do to that rifle/ammo combo I was using IE wind drift for 5mph, 10mph, 15mph.

Don't mean to be long winded but I can't stress it enough. It all starts with the hold down screw torques. Do you really think those hold down screws will have the same torque setting when you set your torques last week in a 70* house 2 weeks ago. Then went to the range in 80* weather and let the rifle sit in the sun for hour??

When your shooting gold balls @ 50yds it doesn't matter. When you're trying to do head shots on flies @ 50yds little things show up rather fast.

Myself, if I wanted to get back into this game I'd take my rifle for a 3 hour ride to lapua Down in columbus. They have a test center there (indoor tunnel). You give them your rifle and $100 and tell them what ammo your looking at buying. Go to lunch and come back or stay and watch. They will have test targets with the different lots of ammo they tested along with the es's & sd's of your rifle and their own testing of that ammo. Then it's a simple matter of buying 2 or 3 cases of that ammo.

Then it would be go to the range & get the torque setting, zero the rifle and get the wind dope card for that ammo. Then go out play with the big boys.

I do find it odd that there's been talk about holding the rifle the same every shot, pressures on the stock affecting groups, etc. But very little is said about torque wrenches. I used to use a snap-on 1/4" torque wrench and switched over to a wheeler fat wrench a decade ago.

A chronograph is a huge part of making sure your rifle is mechanically sound. More pointedly the bolt/fp hits. If I go to lapua and they test ammo and their test rifle does a 7fps sd and 14fps es with a specific lot of ammo and my rifle does 22fps sd and a 31fps es with the same ammo. That's called a clue, that rifle will never group well and those groups will never be to the same poa. I've bought a case of ammo in the past simply because it had extremely low sd's & es's. Could care less what it did on paper and burned most of it up without ever putting up a target. I used it to check for consistent ignition of a firearm over a chronograph. Bolts do get dirty, oils can and will affect fp hits. After cleaning and re assembling a bolt I would test it with that ammo to make sure everything was correct.

Anyway you'll be doing nothing more than spitting into the wind if you don't get everything else nailed down. Kind of hard saying I'm getting low right hits with a nw 10mph wind when you're getting the same off center hits on a calm day.

Torque does not matter, my action is glued into the fiberglass stock :-)

[dtknowles]

Thank you so very much Gentleman....M-Tecs & Larry Gibson for chiming in with your experience in .22lr BR. As you can see, this thread has been a 'huge learning curve' for several of us Neophytes...your information & data is so much appreciated!

I have been mulling on different ways to approach this 'Reading the Wind & Doping' ... up until now we haven't considered the wind at all and have been concerned with the technicalities of a sound rifle and matching the rifle with the best ammunition we could afford...next it was proper form & bench accessories to send the rounds as best as possible...but...now the wind has to be considered and mastered as well.

First thing I did was to build new wind flags from the heaviest engineers tape I have...made them 26" long with a reinforced swivel tab on top and approximately 24" of free ribbon to show the wind strength and direction. I put a spike in the bottom of an old broom handle and a screw in the top to hold the ribbon...

https://i.imgur.com/l4zpwIu.jpg

The spike in the bottom of the broom handle is to stab in the dirt...the broom handle has the ribbons elevated up maybe 12" over the height of my barrel on the bench...

https://i.imgur.com/iYjO4Zw.jpg

Today I don't have any method of judging wind velocity and don't have any proper targets to gather data on...but...they are on order & will arrive soon...

https://i.imgur.com/37lD7B7.jpg

Today, I had one box of 40 rounds left of the Eley 'tenex' & have been using that in the Savage MKII. (a 'peep & globe sighted rifle I have temporarily installed a scope on to find a benchmark of accuracy for that rifle, then I'll go back to the peep & globe) I thought I'd experiment with that rifle even though this thread is about my CZ452, I shoot Eley Match in the CZ and am flat out until tomorrow, got 3 bricks coming to my FFL.

Anyway...here's the follies for today...(I should mention that this MKII is currently sighted for the POI to hit a 1/4" high of the cross hairs of the target spot right on center line...that was set that way so I wouldn't obliterate the center of the spot and make it hard to align the scope, I intend to readjust the scope so that the POA will be the POI now that we are dealing with the wind)

https://i.imgur.com/qEHpDHB.jpg

I wanted to see if this right hand twist would duplicate any of the 'predicted POI's in the charts previously posted.
I had the bright idea that I might get away with shooting the first round on each spot with a POA on the cross marks of the target center.
Next note on the target the conditions of that first shot as far as the wind direction and strength of the wind indicated by the flag marks (look at my notes on the target top left, I think I explained how I marked the spots.
After the first shot I saw the deflection of that shot for the wind value (each first shot is marked -1 w/a line pointing to it's POI)...I simply went across the cross hairs on the opposite direction by the same amount of deflection (moved the POA against the wind direction indicated across the verticle line), left & right & over and under the horizontal. The small circles with the cross hairs in them is the 2'nd through 5'th POA for the group......I hope that makes sense.
Except for the one spot I ignored the wind, all were shot in that manner.
I was hoping that would account for the direction and speed if I were to try to shoot the remaining 4 with the same conditions as the first shot.

I thought i might get away with some easy way to read & dope without all the math involved that I've read about.
Well...it sorta didn't work.
As you can see on the spots (cross hairs of the targets) the flag directions and amplitude were sometimes in several directions...the only flag I could see when I was in the scope was the one nearest me at the bench, I can see it with my non scope eye.

https://i.imgur.com/rphQ6K8.jpg

THIS RABBIT HOLE JUST GOT A LOT DEEPER . . . I hope we together can figure this thing out?!

Note: One of the previous articles posted, mentions that a light .22lr projectile responds differently to the wind at sub sonic speed than our center-fires do as they are designed to help defeat the wind's influence in their weight and cruise missile shapes. There's a lot more they explained also...

After the first shot you used the same hold off for the next 4 but I doubt the wind stayed the same for all 5 shots. You flagged each group with one condition but did the condition hold for the whole group. One of the worst things that can happen when shooting a group is for a condition to reverse when you are holding off. If you are holding right of center for a wind from your left but you don't notice that the wind died or worse shifted to being from the right. Better to not hold off than to be holding off in the wrong direction.

You need to be able to see the wind flags while you are firing. They either need to be visible thru the scope or you need to shoot with both eyes open (you should always shoot with both eyes open) and be able to see the flags with you other eye just by switching your concentration.

Tim

[Forrest r]

Torque does not matter, my action is glued into the fiberglass stock :-)

Your exactly the shooter I like to go up against when $$$ involved

[dtknowles]

I shoot a monthly 100 yard BR 22LR match. Usually 8 - 12 shooters and the competition is tough as about 50% of them are also dedicated 50 yard BR shooters. We shoot on the 200 yard IBS hunter target. We use the inner ring (10 ring as the X ring and the 9 ring as the 10 ring. We shoot two relays with the bottom targets being spotter and then shoot 10 shots on two targets for score. We have 30 minutes to shoot them in but most are done in about 20 minutes then we score the first relay and then shoot the second relay. The match is almost always won by X count with several "400" scores. However, as the recent posts point out being able to judge the wind and hold for it is paramount to a good score.

Here is my scored target from the last match (sighters are left out). I shot bottom left then left top in first relay. The wind was from behind coming out of 4 - 6 o'clock but switching to 7 o'clock. It was running 6 - 10 mph but gusting higher occasionally and also dropping to almost 0 mph momentarily. I us an original Remington M37 made in the early '50s with no modification to it. I made a Weaver cantilever base with the base securing in the D&T'd original scope base holes on the barrel. I have a gen 2 Weaver T35 on it with fine crosshairs and small dot. I shoot Lapua Midas Match 22LR and in a clam or with no wind it is zeroed dead on POA to POI. During the first relay, based on the impact of 5 sighters, I held half way between the X and 10 ring [actual 10 and 9 ring on the target] at 3:30 - 4:00 o'clock. I did pretty well with a 100-18X on the first relay.

The second relay was not so good as the wind really picked up running 6 - 14 MPH with higher gusts and a lot of switching and dying. My first 10 shots for record (bottom right target) were ok but I almost got caught by a strong gust on the last shot. Then it really got dicey as the wind conditions worsened. From moans and groans down the line plus a couple expletive deletes I could tell some had dropped a point or two. I knuckled down and tried judging the best I could and almost got caught by a couple really strong gusts out of 5 'clock and once when the wind fell to 0 and the bullet hit right at point of aim (that 3:30 ten on the line....). I held it together for a 100-11X and a total score of 400-29X. That gave me 2nd place as the winner had 4 more Xs. Still the old M37 shot very well against the winners Anschutz with 45X NightForce BR scope along with him being an excellent shot.

282081

I would love to have a comp like that here. Nice shooting. You made a tiny error in reporting your scores for each relay. 200-18x and 200-11x not 100.

Tim

[OS OK]

Conditions were variable but had a little duration, I waited for less than a minute and the conditions would more or less return and then I'd shoot.

I do shoot with both eyes open with scope, irons or peep & globe. I could only see the flag nearest the bench when I was on the scope, could see it with my non scope eye...I'll have to move them around so I can see all of them at the same time.

Thanks Tim...

[dtknowles]

I shoot a monthly 100 yard BR 22LR match. Usually 8 - 12 shooters and the competition is tough as about 50% of them are also dedicated 50 yard BR shooters. We shoot on the 200 yard IBS hunter target. We use the inner ring (10 ring as the X ring and the 9 ring as the 10 ring. We shoot two relays with the bottom targets being spotter and then shoot 10 shots on two targets for score. We have 30 minutes to shoot them in but most are done in about 20 minutes then we score the first relay and then shoot the second relay. The match is almost always won by X count with several "400" scores. However, as the recent posts point out being able to judge the wind and hold for it is paramount to a good score.

Here is my scored target from the last match (sighters are left out). I shot bottom left then left top in first relay. The wind was from behind coming out of 4 - 6 o'clock but switching to 7 o'clock. It was running 6 - 10 mph but gusting higher occasionally and also dropping to almost 0 mph momentarily. I us an original Remington M37 made in the early '50s with no modification to it. I made a Weaver cantilever base with the base securing in the D&T'd original scope base holes on the barrel. I have a gen 2 Weaver T35 on it with fine crosshairs and small dot. I shoot Lapua Midas Match 22LR and in a clam or with no wind it is zeroed dead on POA to POI. During the first relay, based on the impact of 5 sighters, I held half way between the X and 10 ring [actual 10 and 9 ring on the target] at 3:30 - 4:00 o'clock. I did pretty well with a 100-18X on the first relay.

The second relay was not so good as the wind really picked up running 6 - 14 MPH with higher gusts and a lot of switching and dying. My first 10 shots for record (bottom right target) were ok but I almost got caught by a strong gust on the last shot. Then it really got dicey as the wind conditions worsened. From moans and groans down the line plus a couple expletive deletes I could tell some had dropped a point or two. I knuckled down and tried judging the best I could and almost got caught by a couple really strong gusts out of 5 'clock and once when the wind fell to 0 and the bullet hit right at point of aim (that 3:30 ten on the line....). I held it together for a 100-11X and a total score of 400-29X. That gave me 2nd place as the winner had 4 more Xs. Still the old M37 shot very well against the winners Anschutz with 45X NightForce BR scope along with him being an excellent shot.

282081

You and that M37 are not too shabby. Both your groups in the first relay were less than MOA and that is 10 shots each. Yeah, the wind opened up the groups in the second relay but is seems maybe you handled the wind better than most, still not dropping a point and that would seem to be critical.

Tim

[303Guy]

How do you guys manage to shoot with both eyes open? I've heard of it but have never done it and never been able to do it (bearing in mind I only heard of it later in life). I tried again last range session. Maybe it's just how I learned to shoot as a kid and got too old to change or learn new tricks. What's the reason for shooting with both eyes open?

[tazman]

How do you guys manage to shoot with both eyes open? I've heard of it but have never done it and never been able to do it (bearing in mind I only heard of it later in life). I tried again last range session. Maybe it's just how I learned to shoot as a kid and got too old to change or learn new tricks. What's the reason for shooting with both eyes open?

There are a number of reasons for using both eyes to shoot.
You can pick up the target and the sights quicker when using iron sights.
It also helps getting the scope on target when using optics.
You also can see other things in the general field of view as you are aiming when using either optics or irons. This can be important for viewing wind flags without moving your head from the stock. Also seeing another deer walk out from behind a tree while aiming at a different one.

In my case, it allows me to see both the sights on my firearm and the target clearly since my eyes can only focus in a fairly limited range. My dominant eye can only focus clearly within about 5 feet without my glasses on but I can see the sights clearly. With my glasses on, I lose that close focus ability. My non dominant eye sees better at a distance but not close. With both eyes open I see everything.

Learning to use both eyes with a scope is a matter of concentration. With practice, you will find you can focus your mind and only really see what is in front of your aiming eye even when your other eye is open. You can learn this by partially closing the non aiming eye until your mind blocks it out. eventually you can leave it completely open and still only see through the optic. With practice, you can train your mind to switch back and forth between your eyes when using a scope so you see with whichever eye you need to.
Sounds weird but it works.

From his description, this is exactly what OS OK is doing. I will admit it is easier to learn at a young age but even older people can learn it.

[M-Tecs]

There are a number of reasons for using both eyes to shoot.
You can pick up the target and the sights quicker when using iron sights.
It also helps getting the scope on target when using optics.
You also can see other things in the general field of view as you are aiming when using either optics or irons. This can be important for viewing wind flags without moving your head from the stock. Also seeing another deer walk out from behind a tree while aiming at a different one.

In my case, it allows me to see both the sights on my firearm and the target clearly since my eyes can only focus in a fairly limited range. My dominant eye can only focus clearly within about 5 feet without my glasses on but I can see the sights clearly. With my glasses on, I lose that close focus ability. My non dominant eye sees better at a distance but not close. With both eyes open I see everything.

Learning to use both eyes with a scope is a matter of concentration. With practice, you will find you can focus your mind and only really see what is in front of your aiming eye even when your other eye is open. You can learn this by partially closing the non aiming eye until your mind blocks it out. eventually you can leave it completely open and still only see through the optic. With practice, you can train your mind to switch back and forth between your eyes when using a scope so you see with whichever eye you need to.
Sounds weird but it works.

From his description, this is exactly what OS OK is doing. I will admit it is easier to learn at a young age but even older people can learn it.

Very true unless you are opposite eye dominant. I didn't start shooting with both eyes open until my late 20's.

[OS OK]

How do you guys manage to shoot with both eyes open? I've heard of it but have never done it and never been able to do it (bearing in mind I only heard of it later in life). I tried again last range session. Maybe it's just how I learned to shoot as a kid and got too old to change or learn new tricks. What's the reason for shooting with both eyes open?

I've always done it just to be aware of everything on the range in front of me. My last dog Bubbie would roam around when I'm shooting and payed me no mind...I don't think I could concentrate on my shot if I didn't have it open at least for that.

[dtknowles]

How do you guys manage to shoot with both eyes open? I've heard of it but have never done it and never been able to do it (bearing in mind I only heard of it later in life). I tried again last range session. Maybe it's just how I learned to shoot as a kid and got too old to change or learn new tricks. What's the reason for shooting with both eyes open?

There are a few reasons to shoot with both eyes open. For combat, self-defence and hunting, both eyes open gives you greater peripheral vision.. For long range sessions it reduces eye strain. Keeping one eye closed leads to headaches and eye twitches. For bench rest shooting where you can't get all the wind flags in your line of vision thru the scope it lets you check the wind flags without totally losing your sight picture on the target.

If you have a hard time focusing on the targetfront sight with both eyes openyou can put a patch or a blinder on your non dominate eye and that will eliminate the eye strain but it will limit your peripheral vision and your ability to watch the wind flags.

I sometimes get lazy shooting pistols with iron sights and close my other eye because to keep both eyes open requires a kind of relaxing of my mind that is sometimes hard to achieve. If I try to force it I end up fighting for the right sight picture and it slows me down. For rapid fire I almost always have to close one eye.

Tim

[303Guy]

Thanks for that, all. Eye strain certainly gets me at the range but then I find myself getting generally tired too.

Once upon a time, I was out hunting with guide. I had an antelope in my sights and was just choosing the target spot and about to squeeze the shot when a fuzzy head appeared in my scope! The guide for some reason ran forward and into the line of fire! If I had had both eyes open I would have seen it happening. In those days I had never heard of shooting with both eyes open. Other than point and shoot pistol or shotgun. Both the guide and I were lucky, he more so than me.

Well, I shall give it a try on the range again.

[303Guy]

Something of interest I came across. I don't know where one would get one of these.

https://www.accurateshooter.com/optics/microsight-technology-for-iron-sights/

Talking about glued in actions, I have a rifle with a glued in action. It wasn't supposed to be but the release agent I used didn't work when bedding. It hasn't given me any cause for concern. A hot air gun would get it off if needed but the gun shoots well so no need to do anything. Not a 22lr but close enough - a 22 hornet. I only have two guns actually worth anything and this is one of them. My dad's 22 Mauser is the other one.

[M-Tecs]

Something of interest I came across. I don't know where one would get one of these.

https://www.accurateshooter.com/optics/microsight-technology-for-iron-sights/

They have been out of business of a long time. I want one but I waited to long. Creedmoor Sports was the last place that I know that sold them but that was a long time ago.

[OS OK]

Picked up 3 bricks of Eley Match today... Thought I might do an evaluation of the ammo in the CZ452 with a bare barrel (no tuner) to get a baseline on this ammo...
box says it's 1,055 fps.

I got a little different numbers but they were consistent...

https://i.imgur.com/tVYgWE2.jpg

They seem to be good in the bare barrel but tomorrow I'll reinstall the tuner and get some baseline 2 shot testing done and see if there's a possibility of it making these groups a bit tighter.
These were the first 50 shots in a wet swabbed barrel.

tazman . . . are you satisfied with your ammo? How is it shooting?

[tazman]

Haven't gotten to the range yet. Between the weather(rain and high winds on alternating days) and my wife wanting me to do all sorts of things and the truck breaking down, I haven't gotten it done. Sorry.
I am definitely feeling withdrawal symptoms.

[303Guy]

Well, I got to the range today. I must say, my groups look a lot like yours, only mine were shot at half the distance. :???:

But the similarity lies in some nice groups then a wild flyer and then some spread out groups, plus the moving around the POI. I was wondering what could be going on with my guns so I looked down the bore of my 510 and it looks terrible. It has what looks like greasy patches which made me wonder whether those odd flyers out of a seemingly tight group, could be the proverbial purge flyers?

The other oddity I found was a nice centered group followed by an attempt to 'prove' that group. The first shot goes to the center then the range gets closed. On resuming, the next shot of that group goes wild but then the rest fall back into the POI. Barrel and greasy lube cooled down resulting in a purge flyer maybe? I'm just wondering about it.

The guy shooting next to me with his CZ target rifle was shooting flies off his targets at will. No flyers (excuse the pun). He literally put ten shots into one hole - not a group - a hole. But then he was shooting 'cheap' SK Target ammo at NZ$15 a box. I couldn't find any when I looked. Ordinary CCI sub-sonic HP ammo costs NZ13 a box, just for comparison.

[tazman]

You wouldn't think higher end match target ammunition would be as affected by the shortage as cheaper plinking ammo, would you?
Seems that everything has become difficult to get.
Makes it hard to perform any serious testing when the ammo to test isn't available.

[OS OK]

Got my flags calibrated... I put a 22 grain piece of Gorilla tape on the end of the 24" yellow tape, folded so it's on both sides...

https://i.imgur.com/b3Xj4tx.jpg

I thought if it's too heavy, I could trim it off a little at a time to reduce weight but I was lucky and it worked just right at that weight...when the tape is 90º to the staff the wind is 5 & 6 mph like the foreground flag...the one behind is at 45º and the wind there is 2 & 3 mph...the flag on top of the backstop is not calibrated, a light breeze will show it at full 90º deflection...all it shows right now is wind direction.

https://i.imgur.com/5iIVaJz.jpg

I moved the flags so I can peek around the scope & see the both of them without wrecking my cheek weld and eye relief from the lens...I couldn't get the camera to stay focused in the scope and show both flags as I see them but this is the idea...looking on the left of the scope.

https://i.imgur.com/ygV0Ube.jpg

The wind was cooperating today for the first of several tests with the tuner reinstalled.
I understand the method suggested for sampling 2 shot groups throughout the range of the tuner. That is a total of 1/2" minimum to maximum adjusted in .001" clicks. I decided to start at the minimum, '0.0-0' and do the first .025" without skipping any settings.
I hoped that following the 2 shot groups from one target to the next (.001" increases of barrel length), I could get some idea of just how the barrel is oscillating from the harmonics. I can't say for sure but it looks like a vertical oval shape.
This is something I have heard described in several ways...from a circle to straight up and down...obviously where the 'mean center' of each 2 shot group is located, the barrel was pointing at that 'mean location' for that adjustment. :bigsmyl2: me thinks?

https://i.imgur.com/dTQaUZw.jpg

I was surprised to see that the tuner shifted my POI down by 3/4's inch and left by 1/8"...I readjusted the scope on targets 3 & 4. The top left is the warmer spot...top right is the tuner testing at '0.0-0'.
I started the test at '0.0-1' so that the target numbers would reflect the tuner setting. Did that so I wouldn't get confused, it is marked like a dial micrometer on the tuner. The major lines are marked '0' ~ '5' with 3 lines between each major marking, the first line represents .025" then the 2'nd line is .050", the 3'rd is .075"...then the next line is a major line representing .100", it continues like that up to the .500" mark at the maximum setting.

With all that explained...I intend to take several of these settings and do several 5 shot groupings of each to prove them out and determine what the group looks like, whether or not it is tight and symmetrical or whether it proves to be something like a cloverleaf or...it may well be a group that is one of those 303Guy was describing with the one single flier in each proof set of 5 shots?
I wish I could explain that but can't at this point in testing. It may be just a different barrel time on that flier that causes it but if that is true then we shouldn't see but one or two happen in a total of 5, 5 shot groups. I hate to think I will have to get the chrony and monitor each and every shot speed in each group....Man that sounds like a lot of work!

So . . . if this barrel 'is oscillating in a vertical oval', which pair of 2 shot groups (side by side with no vertical dispersion or 1 hole 2 shot groups) would you choose?
If the 2 shot pair appears to be at the top or bottom of the oval, it seems that when the barrel is changing directions we should have a wider barrel time in that node. Does that make sense to you?

[Forrest r]

Typically when you see too much side to side movement of the bullets poi when adjusting the tuner. It's caused from bedding issues or torque setting on the hold down screws.

!/8" is nothing.

A chronograph would make choices a lot easier. Namely the group that has the largest difference in fps that have the tightest group. That's what a tuners does after all, reduce the vertical spreads.

The 3/4" down is interesting, that means the bbl had to move .006"+.

[OS OK]

Typically when you see too much side to side movement of the bullets poi when adjusting the tuner. It's caused from bedding issues or torque setting on the hold down screws.

!/8" is nothing.

A chronograph would make choices a lot easier. Namely the group that has the largest difference in fps that have the tightest group. That's what a tuners does after all, reduce the vertical spreads.

The 3/4" down is interesting, that means the bbl had to move .006"+.

That's confusing for me. You can see a 'ES' (10 fps spread) difference within the two sets of numbers in the chrony work from the first target I posted. That ammo was the same lot, same box of 50 rounds.
Those numbers came from 10 shots each, both groups shot back to back.

https://i.imgur.com/tVYgWE2.jpg

I first placed the chrony at the target, shot 10 rounds...next moved the chrony to the muzzle +10' and shot another 10 rounds...notice the ES & SD numbers?

Wouldn't we see that happening each time giving us a false sense of actual 'ES's'? It all depends on the luck of the draw each time with the rounds and their individual speeds as they're shot & calculated.
It keeps varying test to test within parameters I'm sure...but depending on ES for choosing a node had not really occurred to me.
I thought we might be looking for a spread of 2 shot groups that are very similar in elevation...like this series here.

https://i.imgur.com/uO46ANo.jpg

It seems to have less vertical displacement over a .005" increase of barrel length than any of the other settings below...

https://i.imgur.com/dTQaUZw.jpg

Somehow I relate that to having a wider node, tolerating wider extreme spreads within these adjustments because the barrel is actually changing direction across these adjustments....I can't say for sure. If only we had actual high speed video slowed enough to track the barrel oscillations and see the exit of the projectile.
The computer simulations on Al's Varmint Page are just that...varying numbers & his video simulations are the same.

http://www.varmintal.com/a22lr.htm

[303Guy]

Something I found interesting this past Sunday at the range. I was shooting my Toz-17 (which I am becoming quite fond of), and with a very relaxed hold, the gun was 'jumping' with each shot. My targets are 1/3 of a A4 page apart and the scope would jump from the target aimed at to the adjacent target. That's at 25m, moving in the rest. Recoil is significant! The movement was made possible by the thinner fore-end in the rest channel. I wonder what a heavier stock would do for accuracy. It wasn't stellar.

[OS OK]

Something I found interesting this pas Sunday at the range. I was shooting my Toz-17 (which I am becoming quite fond of), and with a very relaxed hold, the gun was 'jumping' with each shot. My targets are 1/3 of a A4 page apart and the scope would jump from the target aimed at to the adjacent target. That's at 25m, moving in the rest. Recoil is significant! The movement was made possible by the thinner fore-end in the rest channel. I wonder what a heavier stock would do for accuracy. It wasn't stellar.

I can see the same thing happen with the .22lr. It is not as significant of a shift as yours but sometimes 1/2 to 1" to the right or left.
I can catch myself steering the wind-age with a slight effort in my shoulder, if I steer for wind-age alignment I see it happen most often.
Lately I have been backing off from the rifle and re-engaging it from a straight line from the rear, when I relax the rifle stays on POA...that's how I keep track of my errors and try to get rid of them.

[303Guy]

The Toz is a 22lr. That's what made it so so significant. I was aware of pressure on the stock. My rest arrangement is actually quite easy to keep minimum pressure on the stock but is not all that secure but I am confident that I am not adding more than a bullet diameter error in aiming to each shot.

I saw a very neat rest on Sunday, one that I am going to copy, but in wood. It's a one piece with a but cradle. My idea is to to have only trigger finger contact with the gun. We'll what that does. But if the gun is jumping then maybe it needs to be preloaded onto the rest to at least provide consistency.

My thinking is that how firmly or not the stock is held will effect the barrel oscillations. Hence my thoughts on a heavier stock. It's been a long time since I made a rifle stock - the thought is daunting! But doing that without changing anything else could be educational.

[OS OK]

I try to just be there behind the butt, sorta like a door stop...in contact & no pressure forward.
I use cheek weld pressure on the comb & that's straight down.
I built a front rest to fit the forestock...

https://i.imgur.com/kgrVNUd.jpg

Made from oak & covered with leather...fit's snug side to side, no slop.
Lately I have been resting my non trigger hand across the top of the scope, gently & not much pressure...mostly to stabilize the rifle up straight. That's more important on the MKII than the CZ as the MKII has a rounded bottom to the forestock and it fits that other pad in the top right side of the picture. That's the pad that came with the Caldwell rest.

I think that every subtle little thing we do in contact with the rifle affects the resonance. We have to be consistent.

[Forrest r]

You and I test differently

I don't care about 10-shot strings nor do I care about what the bullet's speed is at the 50yd line.

I will record every shot to get a larger more realistic idea of what the sd's & more importantly what the es is for that ammo. I record the speeds of the 2 shot groups. When you have 2 shots with a spread of 2fps it doen't mean much if the bullets are in the same hole. Get a spread of 14/15fps and they're still in the same hole. Now you have something to work with.

Really don't know what to expect from the modern eley ammo. Never liked seeing anything in the double digets.

When I'm saying the bbl had to move .006"+ to have the bullets impact 3/4" away/differnet. I'm saying the actual bbl's muzzle had to move 6/1000th's of an inch. Not the tuner, the end of the bbl itself.