Looking for advice on a subsonic TC Encore project

[puddleglum]

Hello all,

I have long liked the idea of a T/C Encore carbine in a 16" barrel, to lob heavy chunks of lead, under the speed of sound, through a can, but have always put it off as something to do later. I was perusing YouTube yesterday and came across a few of FullLeadTaco's videos. The videos of casting, powder coating, and loading 45-70 and 458 SOCOM ammo were very enjoyable, and reignited the desire. I have never done any casting or reloading, but am interested in getting into it.

I came here looking for advice on caliber, barrel makers and twist rates, and suppressors to consider for this project. I would mostly be shooting at targets, but would like deer/pig hunting to be a viable option.

45-70 seems like a good starting point. Something like a 405 Win or 375 Win could be an interesting idea, but I am guessing there is not nearly as much info for subsonic loads as there are for 45-70. Another thing I saw recently was a 44 magnum load by IQ munitions shooting a 400 grain bullet at 1000fps. So the 44 mag is capable of lobbing a nice chunk of lead, and it would have the added bonus of being able to find normal ammo much easier than 45-70 (in normal circumstances at least). But I am guessing there are not many molds to be found for the 44 mag around that weight of bullet.

I guess that is a lot already, no sense in writing a novel for my first post.

Regards,
pg

[BK7saum]

The 44 mag and 400 grain bullets likely require a faster twist than SAAMI. You would need to purchase a special order barrel or verify the twist is fast enough to stabilize the heavier bullet. And that is also why you don't see molds heavier than about 300 grain, because factory barrels won't stabilize them.

[44MAG#1]

I have a 50 Alaskan Encore barrel with a fast twist.

[puddleglum]

I was looking at the Bullberry 44mag barrel that can have a 1:16 Twist, which I was thinking might be fast enough, but I haven't actually been able to find a mold anywhere near 400grn online. I thought I would throw it out here, in case anyone knows of a resource I am unaware of. It would be nice to have cheaper, more readily available 44 ammo as an option, but it seems likely a .458 caliber option is going to be much better for subsonic heavy bullets, which is the main goal.

[BK7saum]

If you go with a 45 colt, you could size 458 bullets down the extra few thousandths. Might take a couple of steps though.

Best option would likely be have Tom at accurate molds make you what you want.

[puddleglum]

Would that be done with a lathe, or is there a piece of loading equipment that could size it down? I honestly have no idea how common 45 Long Colt ammo usually is, and never really thought of that.

[475AR]

I have been obsessed with large caliber subsonic, everything from 45acp to 500 S&W, I would look at the 500 S&W, I would suggest a fast twist (I have several 1:10 twist 50 Cal barrels that shoot everything from 275gr to 500gr the biggest mold I have for 50 currently.) Yes the fast twist will more than likely be a custom made barrel but it would be worth it. I have several F1 suppressor's in 50 that are surprisingly quiet dry and scary wet. I wish I had access to a good sound meter to verify how quiet they are.

[44MAG#1]

Ive shot 515 gr bullets in an Encore 454 Casull. They were sized down from .459" to .452" Simple to do.

[puddleglum]

There is also a voice in the back of my head telling me to just get a 458 SOCOM upper for my AR, and then I would already be very familiar with the trigger. Probably the wiser choice, but the Encores just seem fun.

[Meatpuppet]

It really boils down to how complicated you want the project to be.

If you are locked into a large bore, get a 458 SOCOM (AR15 Tromix platform) or a 45-70 Encore and cast 500gr Subsonic with a Suppressor (I'm using a Bowers 50). Recoil can be an issue for me on extended range events. The larger bore is not as quiet as you would hope (big hole in that suppressor). Or you could go with a TC Encore in 460 S&W to throw some heavy lead through a suppressor.

For medium bore I use a 357 Maximum Contender or Encore (Match Grade Machine barrels) pushing 300gr powdercoated lead at 1000fps through a Liberty Infinity X. It is super quiet with the right powder, mild recoil and light enough to carry in the woods all day.

The beauty for the above is that the cases are common, the dies readily available, and the pressures are moderate so the cases last forever. No trimming, fireforming or custom modifications. I find myself shooting the 357 Maxi the most because carbide dies make reloading easy and Starline has brass for a reasonable price.


Edited to add: Shout out to 475AR - I hear great things about the F1 Large Bore suppressor

[puddleglum]

I just found the NOE 380-390-RN-F6. Seems like it would have a pretty decent BC and SD. I wonder if a .375 Win could be loaded to get it going at 1000 fps. Fun to speculate but, like I said earlier, I am guessing I would be better off going with something that has a better library of loads.

Thanks for the feedback folks, good ideas to mull over, and would appreciate any further ideas.

[44MAG#1]

The 50 Alaskan with 700 gr 50BMG bullets is fun around 950 to 1000FPS.

[puddleglum]

The 50 Alaskan with 700 gr 50BMG bullets is fun around 950 to 1000FPS.

Why do you hate your shoulder so much?

[puddleglum]

If I do go with a 45-70 Encore in a 16.25" barrel, what twist rate will be best for a 500 grain pill, probably something like the NOE HTC459-500-SP is saw in the FullLeadTaco videos? I have read most people say the 1:20 is fine, but others say a faster twist, like 1:18 or 1:16 is better, and Match Grade Machine has a 1:10 45-70 barrel listed on their site.

[44MAG#1]

My 50 Alaskan is a 13 inch handgun. My shoulder is fine.

[Wayne Smith]

I was looking at the Bullberry 44mag barrel that can have a 1:16 Twist, which I was thinking might be fast enough, but I haven't actually been able to find a mold anywhere near 400grn online. I thought I would throw it out here, in case anyone knows of a resource I am unaware of. It would be nice to have cheaper, more readily available 44 ammo as an option, but it seems likely a .458 caliber option is going to be much better for subsonic heavy bullets, which is the main goal.

Unfortunately Bullberry is out of business. They made my 25 Krag AI barrel. Look to Mike Bellam or to Match Grade Machine for barrels.

[Burnt Fingers]

http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=17#catalog-anchor

All the heavy 44 mag boolits you could want.

[puddleglum]

I think I probably should just get a 45-70. Will give me more options up to 600 grains.

Any suggestions on who could make a barrel with a faster twist rate than 1:20, like 1:16 or so. MGM makes one in 1:10, but that seems excessive. Then again, maybe it would be just fine for heavy boolits. Thoughts?

Also, any opinions on Encore vs G2 vs SSK-50? I do kind of like to look of the Lynx SSK, and hear they have the best triggers. I don't feel like rattling my fillings out, so I doubt I will ever be going with super high pressure loads.

Thanks all,
pg

[Outpost75]

With a longer barrel you don't need a can. Longest barrel from which GI .45 ACP hardball will reliably exit at 0 degs. C is 80 cm. Quiet like an air rifle and doesn't need a can.

[mattri]

Welcome puddleglum!

Great idea for a project! I did something similar last year only using a Savage as the platform. My goal was to have a rifle I could shoot heavy 45 cal boolits through with two separate loads- 1 subsonic, and 1 "normal" load.

I ended up going with a 450 Bushmaster and was very happy with it. Using cast 400gr boolits I could load down to around 1000fps using Unique or TrailBoss or load to around 1600fps using other powders.

At sub levels it was an absolute hoot to shoot- very accurate, almost no recoil and obviously very quiet.

450 Bushmaster, 45 Colt or 44 Mag will probably be easier to get subsonic as they have smaller cases than the 45-70 and you can still load them to regular power loads if you like.

Boolit sizing is shown here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhQAzV4KeDs

Good luck, keep us posted on your progress!

[puddleglum]

Mattri, your bolt action (assuming the Savage is a bolt) sounds really cool. I considered a 458 SOCOM bolt, but the shorter package of the Encore/Contender just keeps pulling me back that way.

So if I went with a Long colt, I might need two sizers to take a boolit from .459 to .452? Like a .455 or .456 as a step in between? That wouldn't be that bad.

I have read the 45-70 can be tricky to get to subsonic due to case capacity, but people do manage it. Is there enough case capacity in a 45 Long Colt to put in a 500 grain bullet and get it up around 1000 fps?

Thanks,
pg

[Bmp4510]

I’ve been playing with a 45-70 load in a 24” MGM barrel seeking to find the quietest non silenced rifle I could load for that is capable of taking deer, hogs, etc at short ranges. I found this article by Jack Lambert a few years ago, and it was a great starting point.

https://www.jacklambert.com/2014/01/quiet-without-the-can-hunting-quietly-without-a-suppressor/

I usually run 500-525 grain cast Bullets around 700-800 FPS using Trail Boss. Accuracy is 2” at 50 yards, with a 12” drop from 50 to 100 yards. For fun I signed in at 50 yards with the 525 grain load, and then switched to a Noe 350 cast running around 1200fps with Unique, and found it shot only an inch low at 100 yards. So now I carry quiet 525g loads for close range and/or by people, and the 350g loads to reach out a little further when by myself.

I had a cheapie scope on the 45-70, but have now upgraded to a Swarovski Z-3 scope, with a ballistic calculator app. Haven’t got to sight it in yet, but curious to see if I can get it to offset the rainbow trajectory of the load. Good luck


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