Can somone break this down for me

[Wolfdog91]

BHN alloys, and malubility. Can somone please break this down barny style for me because I'm confused. And I'm sorry but the Lyman manual didn't really help me here, mabye I'm just reading it wrong but can't wrap my head around it.
See I though the higher the BHN, the harder the alloy the harder the allow the more brittle but apparently that not it. Like my COWW Boolits are coming out the second quench at around 20-21 BHN. So I figured them and say a pure linotype Boolits ( just using this as an example please work with me here) at the same bhn would have the same malubility but apparently the lino is more brittle. Why is that ?

[whisler]

When you water quench an alloy you increase its hardness (Bhn) because of the structure you cause it to take on by quenching. The brittleness of an alloy has to do with what elements (Lead tin antimony) are in the alloy rather than the structure it takes on in cooling. If you water quench Lino. you also harden it (close to 30 BHN) but it retains its native brittleness. WW get harder when quenched but since they still contain the same elements they retain their native brittleness/malleability. Greatly simplified but I hope it helps.

[Wolfdog91]

When you water quench an alloy you increase its hardness (Bhn) because of the structure you cause it to take on by quenching. The brittleness of an alloy has to do with what elements (Lead tin antimony) are in the alloy rather than the structure it takes on in cooling. If you water quench Lino. you also harden it (close to 30 BHN) but it retains its native brittleness. WW get harder when quenched but since they still contain the same elements they retain their native brittleness/malleability. Greatly simplified but I hope it helps.

Ok that makes alot of sense,

So say I wanted Boolits to be able to handle higher pressurea but stay together /mushroom when when it impacts say a deer. I could simply use a alloy that's naturally ductile and heat treat it such as Clip on wheel weights. Am I understanding this correctly ?
Also what's a good way to test the brittle ness if a Boolit? Will simply smalsingnit with a hammer like you would for a PC test suffice ?

[405grain]

You'll never be able to strike a boolit as hard with a hammer as it will be by getting shot into something. Test your brittleness/hardness/malleability the old fashioned way: shoot some test loads into a stack of wet paper or ballistic gel. There won't be any guessing or assuming after that - you'll KNOW how their going to behave.

[Bazoo]

Antimony is what makes an alloy brittle. Adding tin makes it more malleable. WW alloy is somewhat brittle, but add 2% tin and it becomes malleable. In generally you need a balance between tin and antimony. You can't add but so much antimony to lead without tin, before they separate upon cooling. They separate on a molecular level and that's what makes it brittle. Tin binds the lead and antimony together, as well as adding ductility to lead in of itself.

Copper makes an alloy tough. Though I don't know how to add it as my research hasent taken me there yet.

[dtknowles]

Antimony is what makes an alloy brittle. Adding tin makes it more malleable. WW alloy is somewhat brittle, but add 2% tin and it becomes malleable. In generally you need a balance between tin and antimony. You can't add by so much antimony to lead without tin, before they separate upon cooling. They separate on a molecular level and that's what makes it brittle. Tin binds the lead and antimony together, as well as adding ductility to lead in of itself.

Copper makes an alloy tough. Though I don't know how to add it as my research hasent taken me there yet.

Use Grade #1 Babbitt. It is also a fairly affordable source of tin.

https://www.rotometals.com/babbitt-bearing-alloys/

91% tin, 4.5% antimony and 4.5% copper,

add a half pound of #1 Babbitt and one pound of superhard to 18.5 pounds of pure lead or range scrap and you end of with an alloy that is 96-2.3-1.6-0.1 Pb-Sn-Sb-Cu

I you can get your pure for a dollar a pound that alloy is only about a buck seventy-five a pound. It is like COWW's with 2 percent tin and a pinch of copper

[Bloodman14]

From my research, adding a short piece (1/4 inch?) of tin/copper brazing rod of the kind used in A/C work will add some copper to your melt. I don't know the final alloy numbers, though. Maybe someone with more knowledge can chime in. Water quenching has the same effect as 'case hardening' does on steel; hard on the outside, malleable (ductile) on the inside.

[Rcmaveric]

Seams much has been said. Lead by its self is pretty easily malleable and plastic. Its the elements added and how they affect the crystalline structure of the solid.

Antimony creates a long crystalline lattice that the lead crystals then fill in. Think of it as rebar in concrete. Makes it harder but also makes it crack more easily. It also adds lubrication to the lead. When swaging the crystalline structure breaks and glides over itself. That's why lead bullet cores have 2% Antimony but are dead soft. Helps with swaging.

Tin offers lead better plasticity and a little hardness. Its mainly used no to off set the Antimony brittleness and lower melt temps and helps with mold fill out by lowering the surface tension.

Copper works on the atomic level. Copper atoms are huge compared to other elements. Think of an elevator, packed full of your alloys atoms. Once full now cram in a few copper atoms until no body can move. Thats how copper toughen an alloy. (I wonder if zinc has the same affect because they both have the same solubility limit in lead and similar molecular size, I can find any papers on it though. Also casting with copper alloy has the same issues as casting with zinc alloy).

Then we get in Binary and Ternary allows. Elements don't mix well and can only hold so much. Their limit is called saturation limit. Like mentioned above the after saturation the elements separate on cooling. They don't separate into layers like the muddy water youre imagining though. They separate at the crystalline level. So get crystalline lattice work where the boundaries are Eutetic and the over abundance elements grows their crystals between these Eutetic zones. A picture would help explain this better.

Eutetic ternary allow is the best allow to use if you are worried about a tough bullets.

All that aside. Keep it simple. If you are worried about expansion use a 45 caliber bullet or bigger. Whether it expands or not the deer is dead. At 1600 fps you can eat right up to the bullet whole. Just dont use straight Lino, that might explode on impact.

If you want expansion use range scraps or coww and pure lead at 50/50. Its plenty hard to penetrate and plenty soft to expand. Anything shot into the heart, head, or neck is dead regardless of expansion.

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[Rcmaveric]

To add copper: add zinc to your desired copper percentage the flux with CuSo4 aka Zep root killer. When you flux with it they crystals will be grey, means its pulling out the zinc (and tin). Keep fluxing until your crystals are white. White means all the zinc and tin is gone.

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[Doughty]

Ok that makes alot of sense,

So say I wanted Boolits to be able to handle higher pressurea but stay together /mushroom when when it impacts say a deer. I could simply use a alloy that's naturally ductile and heat treat it such as Clip on wheel weights. Am I understanding this correctly ?


Yes. You've gotten the heart of it. There are more fine points you'll get as you experience more. Such as what velocity + what alloy + quench. Do you want "mushrooming". If so how much. What initial shape (round nose, spire point, flat point, hollow point) will give you the shape you want when pressure is applied. Against what target (broadside deer / small pig or into the shield of a large boar hog).

Your choice of alloy toughness can also be important depending upon the action type of your firearm. Say the difference between slipping a single round into a falling block single shot versus slamming one home from a magazine in a semi-auto.

[Conditor22]

To add copper: add zinc to your desired copper percentage the flux with CuSo4 aka Zep root killer. When you flux with it they crystals will be grey, means its pulling out the zinc (and tin). Keep fluxing until your crystals are white. White means all the zinc and tin is gone.

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You may need to add tin back into the alloy when you're done to get a good flow again.

[Burnt Fingers]

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_3_alloySelectionMetallurgy.ht m

Read that chapter at a minimum. Any new caster should read the whole thing IMHO.

[Burnt Fingers]

Ok that makes alot of sense,

So say I wanted Boolits to be able to handle higher pressurea but stay together /mushroom when when it impacts say a deer. I could simply use a alloy that's naturally ductile and heat treat it such as Clip on wheel weights. Am I understanding this correctly ?
Also what's a good way to test the brittle ness if a Boolit? Will simply smalsingnit with a hammer like you would for a PC test suffice ?

A softer lead will mushroom more when it hits, it will also normally hold together better.

Remember the American Bison herds were decimated with PURE LEAD boolits and a bison is a MUCH tougher animal than a deer.

[waksupi]

Good rule of thumb. You want Brinnel around 2 points below your velocity level numbers. Examples, 1400 fps, 12 Bn. 1600 fps, 14 Bn. 1800 fps, 16 Bn. 2000 fps, 18 Bn. You get the idea.

[Wolfdog91]

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_3_alloySelectionMetallurgy.ht m

Read that chapter at a minimum. Any new caster should read the whole thing IMHO.

I knew that name sounded familiar, talked to that guy on FB last night , very nice man and he gave me this explanation

278431

[Wolfdog91]

Good rule of thumb. You want Brinnel around 2 points below your velocity level numbers. Examples, 1400 fps, 12 Bn. 1600 fps, 14 Bn. 1800 fps, 16 Bn. 2000 fps, 18 Bn. You get the idea.

Ok so my 20 BHN double quenched COWW Boolits are just about right because I'm running them at 21-2300 fps ( still working on the load btw)

[Wolfdog91]

Yes. You've gotten the heart of it. There are more fine points you'll get as you experience more. Such as what velocity + what alloy + quench. Do you want "mushrooming". If so how much. What initial shape (round nose, spire point, flat point, hollow point) will give you the shape you want when pressure is applied. Against what target (broadside deer / small pig or into the shield of a large boar hog).

Your choice of alloy toughness can also be important depending upon the action type of your firearm. Say the difference between slipping a single round into a falling block single shot versus slamming one home from a magazine in a semi-auto.

Yeah the last part of action type is one thing that's got me concerned lol.buuut I think I'm getting a decent grasp on all this. Guess I'll go try and read the books over to see if they make norse sense now

[Wolfdog91]

You'll never be able to strike a boolit as hard with a hammer as it will be by getting shot into something. Test your brittleness/hardness/malleability the old fashioned way: shoot some test loads into a stack of wet paper or ballistic gel. There won't be any guessing or assuming after that - you'll KNOW how their going to behave.

Actually looking into some ballistic jelly, seems like it would be a fun video to make seeing what expands and how much with a .225 bullet lol

[Wolfdog91]

Seams much has been said. Lead by its self is pretty easily malleable and plastic. Its the elements added and how they affect the crystalline structure of the solid.

Antimony creates a long crystalline lattice that the lead crystals then fill in. Think of it as rebar in concrete. Makes it harder but also makes it crack more easily. It also adds lubrication to the lead. When swaging the crystalline structure breaks and glides over itself. That's why lead bullet cores have 2% Antimony but are dead soft. Helps with swaging.

Tin offers lead better plasticity and a little hardness. Its mainly used no to off set the Antimony brittleness and lower melt temps and helps with mold fill out by lowering the surface tension.

Copper works on the atomic level. Copper atoms are huge compared to other elements. Think of an elevator, packed full of your alloys atoms. Once full now cram in a few copper atoms until no body can move. Thats how copper toughen an alloy. (I wonder if zinc has the same affect because they both have the same solubility limit in lead and similar molecular size, I can find any papers on it though. Also casting with copper alloy has the same issues as casting with zinc alloy).

Then we get in Binary and Ternary allows. Elements don't mix well and can only hold so much. Their limit is called saturation limit. Like mentioned above the after saturation the elements separate on cooling. They don't separate into layers like the muddy water youre imagining though. They separate at the crystalline level. So get crystalline lattice work where the boundaries are Eutetic and the over abundance elements grows their crystals between these Eutetic zones. A picture would help explain this better.

Eutetic ternary allow is the best allow to use if you are worried about a tough bullets.

All that aside. Keep it simple. If you are worried about expansion use a 45 caliber bullet or bigger. Whether it expands or not the deer is dead. At 1600 fps you can eat right up to the bullet whole. Just dont use straight Lino, that might explode on impact.

If you want expansion use range scraps or coww and pure lead at 50/50. Its plenty hard to penetrate and plenty soft to expand. Anything shot into the heart, head, or neck is dead regardless of expansion.

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Thank you still got rather confused when you started talking about tenerarys lol. Mabye there was a reason I was never good at chemistry lol. But as far as just using a larger caliber, I can, but also can't for a variety of reasons. Alot of what I do it's fairly "nontraditional" and just using a big hole maker isn't going to do what I require right now