Broken ball driver.

[XDROB]

So I started having or never really fixed when bought new. Primer shuttle hitting the top of the primer punch on my Hornady LocknLoad press. I got it years ago and started having problems with it but never really looked into it.

So after a few years of not being able to go downstairs to get to my reloading area. I can now. So I decided to figure out why the shuttle was 'tripping' on something. I found out the primer punch was sticking up too far and was causing the problem. Called Hornady and they are sending a new base plate.

So in my haste I did not carefully figure out what size the hole was on the two bolts holding the base plate down. So I used a 4 mm ball driver and it seemed fine. As I was putting force on the ball driver it snapped. ( Learned a lesson on when not to force a ball driver). Leaving the ball in the hole. So after that stupid mistake I called Hornady to find out what size the hole was. Was told that it was a 5/32 Allen. That it would never be a metric. I kind of thought that but I continued with my stupidity anyways and ended up breaking off a 4 mm ball driver. My question today is does anybody have any ideas on how to get that ball out of that hole. I have tried shocking it with a hammer and a punch. I have used a small pick to get into the slight area that was showing or that I could see. So far nothing. I'm beginning to think that I'm going to have to drill it out. Does anybody have any ideas on how to do that. And by the way I did use the correct size Allen wrench on the other side and with a a lot of force got the screw to come out.

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[country gent]

Some times a small rare earth magnet will lift the ball out..

If you have a small nail or wire file end sharp and a light application of super glue on the very end and hold against the ball till cured then it may come out. Be careful not to get glue any where else.

THe last ditch is to drill a hole thru the ball .060 or smaller and use a small wire dental pick to lift out.

[jmorris]

I hit them with a TIG welder and add filler so I can grab it with pliers, assuming it is not loose in the hole.

[XDROB]

Thanks for those responses.

I think it is jammed pretty well. I did try a magnet. And a small pick. Tried to jar it loose with a nail punch and a bigger hammer to try to knock it loose. So far no luck. Hornady is ending me a new base plate. Hence trying to remove the existing one. I believe I saw that they are sending new screws also.

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[BK7saum]

Quick question, was the housing sticking up or just the punch. I have had to clean the threaded hole as well as the punch recess in the housing as powder dust and other debris accumulates there and holds the punch up or keeps the housing from threading far enough into the hole.

[XDROB]

The punch was sticking up to far. Tripping the primer shuttle. Both large and small punches. Was happening when I bought the press. But just didn't spend enough time to diagnose it. But now that I have the time to do it. Here I am thinking that this was going to be a good thing and I screw it up

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[JimB..]

It’s jammed in there, try tapping repeatedly with a small punch to jar it loose. If that fails maybe drill a hole through it to relieve the tension.

[BK7saum]

Can you take a small punch or chisel and tap/turn the screw? Or maybe the ball itself to get it to free itself. I am sure that it turned/dug into the screw before it snapped.

[jmorris]

Page 5, exploded view of the LNL.

https://press.hornady.com/assets/pcthumbs/tmp/1410991948-Lock-N-Load---AP----Press-Instructions1515698795.pdf

What is the number of the fastener we are talking about?

Drilling a broken ball end of an Allen wrench is likely not going to go very well. Might be better off cutting a slot with a small cut off wheel and radius a flat head bit to fit. One thing is for sure, being a person that has removed hundreds of broken fasteners, it’s better to take it to someone that knows what to do vs make it harder.

As I said above, a TIG welder and two minutes would have you ready for a new fastener. Drill an off center hole and break an EZ-out off in there to lock everything in place and you have turned it into a much more difficult job.

I don’t know it the photos will show up or not for non members but this is the idea.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/removing-broken-fasteners-or-stripped-out-setscrews.875066/#post-11641905

[XDROB]

Number 35 in the exploded view. I don't have any access to a welder of any sort. Am hoping I don't have to completely dismount the press.

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[jmorris]

Ok, those are counter sunk flat screws. That gives them a fairly wide head but the taper also locks them in fairly well.

I would get as small diameter cut off wheels as you can get, these would likely work.

https://us.dremel.com/en_US/products/-/show-product/tools/420-15-16-cut-off-wheels-20-pack

You haven’t mangled the screw to this degree, so you should have even more to work with.

https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/A3vhkYXRP3p3hNbY.large

I would fit a flat blade bit accordingly to the slot.

[XDROB]

I do have some Dremel wheels like that. I can try that idea. Thanks

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[Bazoo]

If when you slot it, you still can't turn it, hit the head with a brass punch/hammer a couple times to break it loose. If you strip out the slot, then you can use a steel pin punch to turn it out via driving against the slot edge.

[Kenstone]

Number 35 in the exploded view. I don't have any access to a welder of any sort. Am hoping I don't have to completely dismount the press.

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OK, #35 screws are 1/4x28 flathead screws.
Easy enough to remove with an automatic center punch, like this:
https://www.harborfreight.com/spring-loaded-center-punch-621.html

Just punch it straight down way out towards the edge of the flathead.
This is to make a mark into the surface of the screw head.
Put the punch point back into the punch mark you just made, tip it at a 30 to 45 degree angle with the tip point facing the UN-screw direction-counter clockwise.
Push the punch until it fires/clicks, it will act like an impact wrench, tapping the screw in the UN-screw direction.
After several/many hits you will see the screw start to turn (UN-screw) and back-out.
This method has worked many times for me on flathead screws that had either philips-heads or socket hex-heads that were stripped.
Sorry for the long description and if it's not clear enough to understand I can take some pics tomorrow.
it'll work, try it.
:idea:
Edit: and touch the screw with a soldering iron if you suspect it has Loctite on it, before hitting it with the auto-punch.

[Mk42gunner]

I've broken more than my share of ball ended Allen wrenches off, usually in the right sized hole though. They allow a bit of misalignment, but do not like any torque applied at an angle. 5/32 was a very common size on a MK42 5"/54.

My suggestion to get the broken ball out is to use one of the vibrating electric pencils, with the bit turned around to use as a very small punch, and just vibrate it loose. Then work on getting the screw out.

Robert

[rbuck351]

I have removed a bunch of stripped out phillips head screws by using a cape chisel on one side of the top of the head and tapping it with a very small hammer counter clockwise.

If you can get at the screw from straight down on the top you can drive a cape chisel down along side the broken ball and then pry the ball out while still tapping on the chisel to get it to go under the ball. Then you can use a drill just a little under the size of the screw head and carefully drill straight down until the head is gone and the plate will lift off. Then penetrating oil and tap on whats left of the screw very lightly with a small hammer. Do not smash it flat. Then remove with vice grips. If you are not patient and good with hand tools, take it to someone who is.

[XDROB]

Used a vibrating engraver. The ball moves, but won't come out. Used as strong of a magnet that I have in the house. So I think I'm off to Harbor Freight to look for the center punch and maybe a Cape chisel.

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[rbuck351]

If you can't find a cape chisel and they are rare, take a flat nose round punch and grind about a 60 degree angle on the tip until you have a sharp tip on one side. Put the sharp side at the edge of the ball at about a 45 degree angle and drive it down and then under the ball and pry it out.

[Minerat]

Drill a hole in the ball and use a small eazy out to back it off and loosen it then use the magnet.

[onelight]

I am with the guys that say use a punch or chisel they need to be sharp to get started . I was a motor cycle mechanic for many years and have no idea how many stripped screws I removed with those tools . Mainly Phillips screws both counter sunk and round head.
Customers often would bring them in for us to remove.

[Mk42gunner]

I like the idea of a cape chisel; but unless you already have one, good luck finding a new one.
I did the math, there isn't but about 0.0012" difference between 4mm and 5/32" so it should have worked.
Maybe a stupid question, have you tried turning it upside down to se if the ball will fall out? I don't suppose you could solder a handle on the ball to lever it out either can you?
Robert

[Kenstone]

I like the idea of a cape chisel; but unless you already have one, good luck finding a new one.
I did the math, there isn't but about 0.0012" difference between 4mm and 5/32" so it should have worked.
Maybe a stupid question, have you tried turning it upside down to se if the ball will fall out? I don't suppose you could solder a handle on the ball to lever it out either can you?
Robert

yep, should have worked...in the absence of Loctite [smilie=b:

Except ball end hex keys should never be used to "crack loose" a tightened screw, never.

The hex socket in a flathead screw is shallower than in a socket head cap screw, another reason NOT to use a ball end wrench for anything but snugging up a screw or unscrewing an already loosened screw.
jmo,
:(
.

[Blindshooter]

I've removed those screws on 2 LnL presses. In both cases they were very tight.
I'd probably slot it if the broken bit can't be coaxed out. If that don't work take it to a decent machine shop/welder.

[XDROB]

I just didn't think about the fact the the ball end would snap. I also didn't know how much force it would take to break them free. Once I called Hornady and found that it was 5/32. I used the right size Allen and got other screw out. But it took a lot of force to get it out. I was expecting the wrench to start to bend and at that point it broke free.

At this point I tried the spring loaded punch and it didn't even work what's so ever. Maybe the one I bought was just weak.

So right now I cut a slot on the 3 o'clock side and have tried hitting up with a hammer and a good brand flat bladed screwdriver. Has not moved yet. Next try will be cutting a slot on the 9 o'clock side and trying to use a bigger flat bladed screwdriver and a wrench to help apply some quick shock to it.

Trying to drill it out without damaging the allen hole.

I don't know if I have the right type of drill bit to drill a progressively bigger hole into the ball. Don't know what it's made of.

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[AZ Pete]

have you tried applying some heat and penetrating oil? Some good penetrating oil (kroil) applied, and a heat gun often works well.

[onelight]

Trying to drill that ball would be the last thing I would try .
Have you tried punching on the ball with a center punch to see if you can break it loose so it will lift out with a magnet or pick. If you try to move it in the tighten direction it may break loose so you can get it out.

[rbuck351]

Those allen wrenches are quite hard. I doubt you will be able to drill it. You are probably going to have to dig the broken ball out before you can continue. If you can't make a cape chisel, and have a dremel you may be be able to grind the ball out with a stone with the dremel. A small nail set is very easy to grind into a cape chisel and fairly easy to find.
I do not recommend using an easy out for any bolt or screw much less than 1/2" dia. if the hole you drill in the bolt is even somewhat close to the dia of the bolt the easy out will swell the bolt when you tap it in and make the bolt really hard to get out.

[JimB..]

The ball went in, it’ll probably come out. Hook up the shop vac to get some constant suction on it and wiggle the heck out of that ball for 5 min. The other thing might be to hit the ball with the spray from an inverted compressed air can, that’ll chill it fast.

[jim147]

A carbide drill bit would make a hole in it. Not sure if that would help. An oxygen acetylene torch to heat it red would soften it.

If you get it out, heating the bolt and cooling just the bolt quickly will shrink it.

[XDROB]

The ball does move. Got it unstuck using a vibrating engraver. But any attempt to get it out has failed. Have tried some pretty strong magnets. Have tried picking at it with a small pick. As far as I know I have not damaged the hole so don't know why the fact that the 4mm ball is a bit smaller than 5/32 won't just slide out.

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[jmorris]

I don't know if I have the right type of drill bit to drill a progressively bigger hole into the ball. Don't know what it's made of.


They are commonly made from 1040 steel then heat treated to make them harder.


The ball does move. Got it unstuck using a vibrating engraver. But any attempt to get it out has failed. Have tried some pretty strong magnets. Have tried picking at it with a small pick. As far as I know I have not damaged the hole so don't know why the fact that the 4mm ball is a bit smaller than 5/32 won't just slide out.


Because the tool was harder than the screw and round giving it less contact surface area, so likely distorted the screw, at the point the middle of the ball was contacting, that is now holding the broken ball captive. I would resist the temptation to break off a small carbide bit in it but drilling by hand into a now loose but captive hardened ball, it would likely break at a depth so shallow it could be simply brushed off.

Would be better off spending the money on one of these to go along with your slot.

https://www.sears.com/craftsman-impact-driver/p-00947641000P

[XDROB]

Your probably right about why it won't come out. While thinking about this. I had thought about an impact driver. Funny you should mention it. I'll have to reach out to a couple of mechanic friends to see if they have one.

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[Steve Steven]

I have had good results with dental bits in a Dremel tool, gnaw away at the offending bit untill it is small enough to fall out.

Steve

[rbuck351]

It's real easy to break carbide when you are grinding or drilling on something hard and loose. The last thing you need is something in the ball even harder than the ball.

The good thing about the impact drivers is they twist and shock at the same time. If you can't get the ball out. Use a dremel to slot the screw head and the ball. Then use a heavy (3 lb) hammer to give a good shock and twist with the impact driver.

It's still easier to dig the ball out with a cape chisel and then drill the head off the screw and lift off the plate.

[Kenstone]

I just didn't think about the fact the the ball end would snap. I also didn't know how much force it would take to break them free. Once I called Hornady and found that it was 5/32. I used the right size Allen and got other screw out. But it took a lot of force to get it out. I was expecting the wrench to start to bend and at that point it broke free.

At this point I tried the spring loaded punch and it didn't even work what's so ever. Maybe the one I bought was just weak.

So right now I cut a slot on the 3 o'clock side and have tried hitting up with a hammer and a good brand flat bladed screwdriver. Has not moved yet. Next try will be cutting a slot on the 9 o'clock side and trying to use a bigger flat bladed screwdriver and a wrench to help apply some quick shock to it.

Trying to drill it out without damaging the allen hole.

I don't know if I have the right type of drill bit to drill a progressively bigger hole into the ball. Don't know what it's made of.

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Sorry to read about the punch not working.
Maybe get an awl with the metal shaft going all the way thru the handle, put it into the punch divot in the screw head and whack it with a hammer.
I've used an auto punch for so many hits the divot went half way around the screw head and started a new divot before it worked to loosen the screw, so yeh a lot of hits, don't give up...
Did the screw you got out have any signs that it had Loctite on it??

[44magLeo]

Unbolt the press from the bench, Turn it upside down, Then try wiggling the ball. Gravity may help the ball come out.
Leo

[Moleman-]

Can you use a small dremel diamond ball bit to remove enough metal from the ball so that it will come out? I updated my old projector press to use the LNL subplate and priming system. The subplate kit came with two new bevel head screws which screw into the subplate including part of the tapered head. The only thing you'll hit inside of the ram is the drive hub and possibly the drive shaft if you for some reason kept drilling after breaking through the screw if drilling for an easy out. Should you not be able to remove it by other means. Since the start of the bevel extends into the subplate you should also be fine to just drill it with a 1/4" bit until the head pops off as the through hole in the ram is larger than 1/4".

[onelight]

It that screw driver has a handle on it it will soak up the impact you want on the screw a heavy punch or chisel with the tip ground to fit will work better.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have popped the ball off ball drivers about 500 times. You'da thunk I would have learned but it was never clear that the screws I was dealing with were that tight. These were 6-32 SS flat head screws using a 5/64 ball driver.

After a few hundred failures I started carrying a 5/64 Allen/ball driver and broke the screws loose with the hex end and then spun them out with the ball driver end. Problem Solved!

As far as your problem, you'll probably have to replace the screw. Drilling these out is not going to be easy as they are Hard and Round so the drill will wander and screw up the hole.

The hot tip with Bondhus Ball Drivers is if you can't break the screw loose with finger pressure, you need to use a Regular Allen Wrench. Putting a wrench on the ball driver to get more leverage is asking for trouble. It can be done, but you need to know your limitations.

By the way,,, that brand of Allen Wrench is the best there is. I've got lots of them in my shop.

Randy

[XDROB]

So I have quite the slot cut into the screw head. Using a dremel cutoff wheel. But the angle that I have to hold a screwdriver and then to try and turn the screwdriver with the help of a wrench is not working. So I have finely decided to unbolt it from the bench and attack it from a better angle. I can't believe that I won't have it apart by Sunday afternoon. Have some other things to work on. House comes first.

And the other screw looks pretty clean. And I was told by Hornady that they don't use any kind of thread lock. It's just the taper of the screw that holds it in so tight. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210227/b22300b0ad2d85fc714dd26f75eed569.jpg

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[Kenstone]

So I have quite the slot cut into the screw head. Using a dremel cutoff wheel. But the angle that I have to hold a screwdriver and then to try and turn the screwdriver with the help of a wrench is not working. So I have finely decided to unbolt it from the bench and attack it from a better angle. I can't believe that I won't have it apart by Sunday afternoon. Have some other things to work on. House comes first.

And the other screw looks pretty clean. And I was told by Hornady that they don't use any kind of thread lock. It's just the taper of the screw that holds it in so tight. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210227/b22300b0ad2d85fc714dd26f75eed569.jpg

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Wow, OK
I would have ripped it off the bench 1st thing...
Good luck,
:D
.

[XDROB]

Too stupid or stubborn. Or a little of both.

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[XDROB]

So I decided to unbolt the press from my table. Had to dismount the shell feeder, but that wasn't much of a big deal. Layed it on its side. Heated the screw with a small torch and then dripped a couple of drops of Kroil into the sides. Tried a small punch. No good. So I had already cut a pretty good slot into it I tried a flat bladed screwdriver and using the flats on the shaft I was able to use a wrench to shock and add torque. Got it out. Yay yay!! Now I trying to figure out what is holding the spent primer tube in. I don't see any setscrews. So it's got to to be a friction fit. But it is not moving. The manual shows a screw there, but I don't see it. What I'm trying not to do is twist the damn tube so I won't be in able to reuse it. Tried heating the baseplate to expand it. No movement.

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210227/7f0a3b14e4bc111cc005a39840f00514.jpg

[onelight]

:drinks:[smilie=w::drinks:

[AZ Pete]

great!

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello XDROB,

Wish I'd seen this earlier.
17 years of carrying a tool pouch, we used to use a small center punch.
Make a mark on the Bolt Head, then angle the punch & spin the bolt out.
The ball end wrenches are nice if you can't get a straight shot on the bolt,
but one learned quickly to make sure the bolt is loose before using them.
I always carried both straight cut & the ball end wrenches.

AntiqueSledMan.

[XDROB]

Hello XDROB,

Wish I'd seen this earlier.
17 years of carrying a tool pouch, we used to use a small center punch.
Make a mark on the Bolt Head, then angle the punch & spin the bolt out.
The ball end wrenches are nice if you can't get a straight shot on the bolt,
but one learned quickly to make sure the bolt is loose before using them.
I always carried both straight cut & the ball end wrenches.

AntiqueSledMan.Thank you. I did get it out. I am not s mechanic but worked in a dealership for over thirty years. He Ave worked 9b my own cars. Do have a little bit of common sense. I ended up cutting a good size slot in the screw head. Got part of the ram as you can see. Finally unbolted the press from the table. Layed it on it's side. Got a pretty much straight shot at it. Used a Snap On flat bladed screwdriver. They have a flat spot just under the handle. I used a wrench on that to give me more torque and I got it out. I didn't want to unbolt it, but that's what I had to do.

My problem now is the spent primer tube. It just won't move. The manual shows a screw in that area. But I don't see one. Not even a set screw. I heated the base plate with a small torch to expand the hole that it is in. Won't move. So before I ruin it. I'm going to call Hornady to see what's up with it.

WHAT A LESSON LEARNED!!

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[Moleman-]

The primer tubes are a press fit, but I also suspect they're likely glued in also. The shellplate kit should have a stepped plug that fits in the end of the tube to keep you from crushing the tube while gripping it with a pair of channellocks or vice grips. If you can't wiggle the primer tube out, try tapping the plyers with a hammer to pull the tube out. There is a video on youtube that shows the disassembly for subplate replacement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr4Ans_bpU4 the primer tube starts about 3:37. The primer tube on mine wouldn't wiggle at all and resorted to the tapping method.

[XDROB]

The primer tubes are a press fit, but I also suspect they're likely glued in also. The shellplate kit should have a stepped plug that fits in the end of the tube to keep you from crushing the tube while gripping it with a pair of channellocks or vice grips. If you can't wiggle the primer tube out, try tapping the plyers with a hammer to pull the tube out. There is a video on youtube that shows the disassembly for subplate replacement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr4Ans_bpU4 the primer tube starts about 3:37. The primer tube on mine wouldn't wiggle at all and resorted to the tapping method.Thanks for that information.

I suspected something was holding it in. From what I can see there's not much of the tube in the hole. So why won't it move? I watched the video and saw the tool that you are talking about. I did not get that in the box. They sent new base plate, new screws for the base plate. I'm going to give them a call tomorrow.

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[Moleman-]

There's nothing fancy about that stepped plug other than it fits the ID of the tube. A snug fitting drill bit shank would work also.

[abunaitoo]

Glad you finaly got it out.

[XDROB]

Glad you finaly got it out.Thanks, I'm sure it would have been a lot sooner if I had not been so stubborn about unbolting it from the table. Part of that stubbornness was I didn't want to unbolt the case feeder. But it's done now.

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[XDROB]

There's nothing fancy about that stepped plug other than it fits the ID of the tube. A snug fitting drill bit shank would work also.Another good thought!


Stuck a drill bit in and fought that tube off. Boy what tight fit! Press is back on the bench. Will start the final reassemble tomorrow. Then back to to the original task of timing the primer feeder and shell plate timing.
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