"It Finally Happened to Me"

[rfd]

~ Excerpt from Mike Nesbitt's column in the November/December 2013 Muzzleloader Magazine

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Well, it finally happened to me. While at the Free Trapper's November Turkey shoot last year (2012), I took my first shot with "Tacky Too", my .54 caliber flintlock Leman styled rifle, just as a fouling shot. The bore was oily and I knew that, so the fouling shot was necessary. I poked a good hole in the powder through the flash-hole and that powder simply felt soggy. Then the pan was primed to the top, and as much FFFFg as possible was poked or shaken through the flash-hole in order to get as much fire as possible inside the barrel. That shot still had slow ignition, just as I expected. Then, while preparing to load for the next shot which was going to be fired for score, the powder had just begun to pour from my powder measure and into the bore when it was touched off by a lingering spark down inside the barrel. That powder charge, only 50 grains of FFg, blew the powder measure out of my hand and left me with some very numb and sooty fingers. Yes, I quickly checked and counted those fingers! All of which were still present and accounted for, quite thankfully! Then the numbness began to wear thin and I quickly submerged my blackened and aching hand in the cool of the rainwater barrel. That cleaned some of the soot off my fingers and it allowed me to begin feeling normal again.

My powder measure, one of the old treasured ones from Doc Haddaway, was blown more than a few yards away but I was able to find it. Other than being very sooty, like my hand, there was no damage to the powder measure. However, the blast at the muzzle of my rifle was enough to send that powder measure far enough that I know how lucky a guy can be to not have my fingers directly in front of the gun's muzzle.

The experience allows me to testify that there is certainly a chance of having a lingering spark present in the gun's barrel that can be "hot" enough to ignite the next powder charge. Why it happened this time, and I'm just guessing, is because my gun's bore was left rather oily after being fired and cleaned during the previous week on a rainy day. The oil was wiped down the bore just after cleaning the gun. My thought is that some of the powder in my first powder charge absorbed some of that oil and did not burn completely when the shot was fired but remained in the bore, allowing a "slow spark" to remain after firing my first shot.

Just let me say that a premature ignition can certainly happen. I had never seen or witnessed such a thing in over 40 years of shooting muzzleloaders but, I will say it again: it finally happened to me.

As I look back on it, there was at least one warning sign which I completely ignored and this is being mentioned just to give you all of the details from my recent experience Right after that first shot was fired, the hangfire because of the oily bore, my gun's muzzle was pouring out smoke that was a slightly different color and thicker than the usual wisps of white smoke from a "just fired" muzzleloader. That smoke had a yellowish tinge to it and I plainly remember seeing it. That should have warned me that something might still be burning down the barrel, but it didn't.

I might be ridiculed for admitting that the next charge of powder was poured into the barrel while the bore was still smoking and that will be a ridicule that I accept because I deserve it. But let me ask, how many of you have never added powder for the next shot while the barrel still contained or emitted a little smoke? We shoot guns that make a lot of smoke and we tend to get used to it or relaxed about it. Yes, I deserve that bit of ridicule and I will allow a black powder shooter "who is without sin to cast the first stone."

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

THIS IS WHY WE "BLOW DOWN THE BARREL" IMMEDIATELY AFTER EVERY SHOT IS TAKEN. It is a SAFETY MEASURE. Cup your hand 'round the muzzle and blow into it. When smoke stops pouring out the touch hole or nipple, the barrel is safe to accept the next powder charge. Further reading on this matter - http://bwanabob.info/page2.html

Before 1992 the NMLRA considered blowing down the barrel as a normal part of the shooting process. Then that changed and was considered unsafe and forbidden at any NMLRA club affiliated shooting events. Most clubs and matches follow that dictum, unfortunately. To get around that nonsense, I carry and use a foot long length of neoprene tubing to accomplish blowing down the barrel.

[Hickok]

That could have been very bad. It is good that he related his experience so others can learn from it.

We all at times do things that can have nasty consequences.

[elk hunter]

The above reminded me of an incident involving a powder horn. Fifty or more years ago a shooter in our area had his powder horn explode when he touched off his flintlock rifle. He was wearing it on his right side like most shooters do. How a spark got in and ignited the remaining powder no one knew for sure. His right arm and side were badly burned. I took note and moved my horn and bag to my left side as I'm a right handed shooter. Like the above it might be only a one-in-a-million chance but it could and apparently does happen.

[jdfoxinc]

About 14 + years ago A friend of mine had his rifle discharge while ramming 5he ball. This is the only occurrence of this happening that I know of.

[freakonaleash]

Before 1992 the NMLRA considered blowing down the barrel as a normal part of the shooting process. Then that changed and was considered unsafe and forbidden at any NMLRA club affiliated shooting events. Most clubs and matches follow that dictum, unfortunately. To get around that nonsense, I carry and use a foot long length of neoprene tubing to accomplish blowing down the barrel.
And that's why I don't shoot there any more.

[waksupi]

It's a hell of a lot more dangerous to not blow down a barrel, than doing so. Lawyers. Bah!

[mongo40]

This is also why you never pour directly down the barrel from your horn! Always use some type of measure.

[Murphy]

This is also why you never pour directly down the barrel from your horn! Always use some type of measure.

Exactly! Those brass powder containers with spouts that can be changed out look cool. Until you wake up and realize you're holding a potential bomb in your hand.

Hope things went well on your side of the state during this cold snap.


Murphy

[Caswell Ranch]

This is also why you never pour directly down the barrel from your horn! Always use some type of measure.

I see this statement a lot, how would a person measure the drop ? who pours an unknown amount freely from a flask. Many times (if the incident actually happened) other factors are at play as is the case in the original post, I have used a metal flask and horn with measure spout with a valve to close off spout from flask for years and it too was permitted at shoots years ago along with blowing down the barrel, the hobby and sport of black powder shooting is in danger of fading away in part because people think it's too dangerous because black powder is an explosive (not), guns blow up if you don't seat the ball (not true), your powder flask if used as it was intended will blow up in your hands (no), what a bunch of bull.
Modern smokeless powder has more energy than any black powder and it's just listed as powder, it's use blows up black powder guns more than any other cause.
The measure in the original post may have traveled as it did because the holder threw it (involuntary motion ) like putting your hand on a hot surface, as I stated above with regard to other factors, normally the time from shot to loading gives time for any smoldering to be done with, if you have a contaminated bore or are trying to speed shoot you may get unlucky and have a small Roman candle, odds are if you are using a horn the base cap will come off before pressure is high and most flasks made today will split the seams before ever being a hand grenade, the brass cylinder type have a valve and the measure of powder is in the spout and closed from the rest of the powder (bet if a sign of a flash started the thing would be flung), I know somebody is going to make a point that the flame can get past the valve , well it may but people around the forums hate Pattern breach stating the channel/antechamber is too restrictive for positive ignition ;) , the flask valves are designed to be a no flash valve if kept clean.
Anyway, the hobby/sport is fading away, many gun store don't stock powder because of restrictions and lack of demand, recycling old horror stories just drives the point, some post stories that are not true just to be part of a thread, you know how it goes,
" well a friend of my brother's uncle's nephew was looking at a container of black powder, can't remember what brand, anyway, he was looking at it so hard it blew up". We need to support the sport, not keep repeating half truth and wives tales . My 2 cents.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I am a believer in blowing down the barrel , seems to load easier , I believe also it does make sure there is no smoldering ember , Load from a flask or a measure I have done both and I do so after blowing down the barrel , I have dry balled a gun and stuck a ramrod while cleaning and I have trickled powder in and shot it out , works for me if not for you I dont care . I shoot alone a lot of time I hunt alone almost all the time , I also drive in the woods at night and in snow and windy weather and am not to concerned .

Insurance keeps a lot of places from stocking black powder along with the restrictive fire ordinances and powder magazine / storage well it is not as deadly as those movies portrayed , and people today seem to need big brother telling them what is safe and permissible , been shooting black for about 45 years , in that time I have done different things to see what works for me , and why some things happen , chain fires , lubes , cleaning , loads , powder granulations , so I know what works for me , what I believe and what I do not when people say it and best thing is to try things for yourself , as to internet or tavern talk take it with a large grain of salt see what works for you its not really rocket science .

And when experience tells me what causes what and what works stick with it or take the youtube guru version if you want your choice .

[dondiego]

I have four, 20 pound tanks of propane for my grills and heaters in my garage. You want to talk about an explosive possibility!

[rfd]

I am a believer in blowing down the barrel , seems to load easier ....

Yes, because yer keeping the black powder residue soft, same as blow tubing for BPCR.

[indian joe]

Yes, because yer keeping the black powder residue soft, same as blow tubing for BPCR.

I fired a foul shot at a rendezvous match in Queensland (off to the side and back to the crowd) blew down the muzzle and was about to turn back to the loading area ---range officer taps me on the shoulder "first and last warning, do it again and instant removal from the range - pack yr tent and go home" ----so this guy is normally LOUD but my warning was delivered quietly ----I talked to him later in the day "whats the issue with it ? " Mate its in the rules but my big issue is people are here with cameras, if a picture of you with yr barrel in yr gob gets in the papers - and it will - we are all dead - you have no idea the ruckus would be raised and all by people dont know $hite from a brick. Lawyers and do gooders !!!!!

[longbow]

I was taught to blow down the barrel until no smoke comes out of the nipple or flash hole. Never been to a shoot where it wasn't allowed and wasn't practiced though I haven't been to a muzzleloader shoot in many years now. If I were to go to one where I couldn't blow directly down the barrel I would be using the rubber hose idea. I do not believe it is safe to be pouring powder into the bore unless you are sure there is no fire down there and if there is smoke there could be something smouldering.

And what indian joe said about lawyers!!

Longbow

[nightwolf1974]

You're lucky! But look on it as a reminder. EVERY shooter has had some type of experience that reminds them to slow down and pay attention.
My father and uncle call me an "old maid" because I take so long to reload a BP gun. I measure the powder out of the flask or can, close the flask or put the top back on the can, move the can or flask back several feet, pour the charge into the chamber or barrel, then wad the chamber (revolvers), then seat my ball, and repeat(revolvers). Not only do I enjoy the process, but it's safe that way.

[charlie b]

I use the rubber hose idea. I started using one when the kids were shooting. Hammering into them that a muzzle is NEVER pointed at someone. Would look silly if I then stuck my face in front of the rifle.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Yes, because yer keeping the black powder residue soft, same as blow tubing for BPCR.

I know that , part of the reason I do it .

[mooman76]

I gotta wonder if this problem would likely more from a fowling shot rather than a normal load wear you shoot a round. Just kinda thinking but I think the pressure from shooting a projectile would make the powder burn better and more completely plus the projectile leaving the bore would cause a suction that would pull out most the powder also. From what I have been reading about it(on another board also) it seems to usually happen after firing a fouling shot or reenactors that fire blank shots.

[Caswell Ranch]

I gotta wonder if this problem would likely more from a fowling shot rather than a normal load wear you shoot a round. Just kinda thinking but I think the pressure from shooting a projectile would make the powder burn better and more completely plus the projectile leaving the bore would cause a suction that would pull out most the powder also. From what I have been reading about it(on another board also) it seems to usually happen after firing a fouling shot or reenactors that fire blank shots.

There is no suction from a fired anything, that's not how it works(burning powder, expanding gas volume), now the reenactors having the contaminated burning ember bore problem, I can see that.

[Tortoise1]

Scary incident but a good reminder of the inherent danger in this hobby that shouldn’t be taken for granted.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Do not let this incident scare one as when you read the oily bore and funny smoke coming up is a pretty good clue , as to shooting at matches and clubs where the practice is forbidden of blowing down barrel make a blowtube or do not go , I choose to shoot with friends or by myself for enjoyment or a friendly wager of Guinness , reading about the reenactors shooting powder with no wadding even makes me shake my head , toilet paper makes a great wadding for a noisemaker load .

[waksupi]

There is no suction from a fired anything, that's not how it works(burning powder, expanding gas volume), now the reenactors having the contaminated burning ember bore problem, I can see that.

Try shooting an animal with muzzle contact, check your bore afterwards, and then tell me there is no suction.

[Caswell Ranch]

Try shooting an animal with muzzle contact, check your bore afterwards, and then tell me there is no suction.

There is no suction, I don't know what you are muzzle contact shooting but that would be spray/splatter.

In order for a projectile to be sent, gas has to be produced quickly and in greater volume than the bore capacity (x amount of cubic inches of space, more cubic inches of gas), when the projectile is exiting the bore excess gas flashes outward around the projectile, because the gas volume is greater than the cubic capacity of the bore you have exhaust not suction.
Basic ballistics, physics.

As this relates to the person that first posted the suction comment, the ball leaving the barrel is being driven by expanding gas, not being pulled from the barrel like a tight fitting patch on a jag when cleaning, no suction exists to pull embers out, they are forced out or stick to a contaminated bore (oil/melted patch lube, paper etc).

[FLINTNFIRE]

Well I respect Waksupi and his experience , and with that I would say you may have some basic ballistic knowledge and physics and you may not , but I do not discount someones experience and observations .

And as to loading from a horn or flask or other things I have used hunting in real experience myself I have loaded straight from a prince albert pocket tin ( man that was the handiest container ) on a quick follow up shot dispatching a wounded elk (already wounded when I ran into it ) that should have dropped from my first shot but did not and I did slide down the sidehill to put rifle right up to ear for follow up .

So take what you want from the original post and follow your own decisions , more then one way to skin a cat or so I have heard .

[mooman76]

Well, when I stated suction, that was probably poor choice of words but I still believe there is a force to pull of push more powder out than when firing just blank powder.

[Caswell Ranch]

Well I respect Waksupi and his experience , and with that I would say you may have some basic ballistic knowledge and physics and you may not , but I do not discount someones experience and observations .

And as to loading from a horn or flask or other things I have used hunting in real experience myself I have loaded straight from a prince albert pocket tin ( man that was the handiest container ) on a quick follow up shot dispatching a wounded elk (already wounded when I ran into it ) that should have dropped from my first shot but did not and I did slide down the sidehill to put rifle right up to ear for follow up .

So take what you want from the original post and follow your own decisions , more then one way to skin a cat or so I have heard .

1) no disrespect was implied to anyone.
2) I have and will load from metal flask and horn, I also blow down the barrel and have done so for 50 years.
3) blood in the bore in my opinion is from spray, just because somebody assumes the cause does not make it so, Waksupi is wrong and no disrespect is intended. Many times I have seen statements made by people that they believe to be correct but was never researched or may not have personal experience with.
4) as to I may or may not have ballistic experience, I'm still a contract firearms/SRT instructor for USASOC, FBI and local LE, I worked active counter terrorist and drug interdiction (past) , work with Sig and Springfield on firearm design and ballistics. Shot competitively for years attaining Distinguished Master, Grand Master certification.
5) looks like thread is drifting so I will no longer comment on it, I'll leave it to the forum click.
6) more than one way to skin a cat, exactly , but people today very rarely search their own experience though doing and rely on forums and here say, the short point of my first post on this thread.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Not sure if this is suction, but this guy claims wads, under the boolit and on top of the powder get sucked back to the back of the barrel when firing.


It seems that the high pressure from the burning powder causes wads to get turned around in the turbulent gases. Many of those wads do not exit the muzzle, but end up at the bottom of the firing chamber, probably because, while the ball is traveling up the barrel, gases are escaping through the touch hole and the wads are "blown" toward the touch hole because of a pressure gradient.

The accumulation of wads in the bottom of my bore was a huge mystery to me and they completely clogged up my musketoon when I took it out to fire it for the first time. I didn't have a "worm" for removing such things at the time and so I had a very hard time removing what was down there. When I started to pull out wad after wad from the breech, I was really astounded and it took me a couple of hours to get all of them out of there.
http://geojohn.org/BlackPowder/Musketoon/ShootingTheFlintlock.html

[Caswell Ranch]

Not sure if this is suction, but this guy claims wads, under the boolit and on top of the powder get sucked back to the back of the barrel when firing.


http://geojohn.org/BlackPowder/Musketoon/ShootingTheFlintlock.html

In my opinion based on something I experienced along the lines here, the over powder card/wad is small for the bore and the card is able to flip in the bore and if you reload and the card is sideways the powder will pass it, then seat another undersize card and repeat the loading prosses, his first statement above is almost on track but they find the way back by loading the next shot, this shooter should have noticed his seating depth changing (mark on rod) with so many cards/wads in the bore.
Anyway , sorry I did not stick to my comment above ( 5) ) but will.

[6string]

RFD,

Glad you were not seriously hurt.
And, no ridicule is deserved.
If anything, I pass along my thanks and admiration. It's a true testimony to character to put forth a hard earned experience for the benefit of others.

Jim

[Caswell Ranch]

RFD,

Glad you were not seriously hurt.
And, no ridicule is deserved.
If anything, I pass along my thanks and admiration. It's a true testimony to character to put forth a hard earned experience for the benefit of others.

Jim

Nothing happened to RFD, he posted an article from 2013. People don't read the thread in full only two or three posts above the point they comment, not just 6string it is the same everywhere.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Firearms instructor for those does not impress me much and I will still take someones experience over what you wish or believe either and did not imply any disrespect either , as to anyones credentials its the internet say what you want as people do , thread was about someones experience .

I remember a thread where you disputed a members statement when in fact he was correct on powder sizes and you later went in and deleted your snide part of post as you were wrong , instead of apologizing and admitting that you had the size correlation wrong .

So that is but one reason I will take someone who I find has more knowledge on somethings experience and word , but believe what you want as it is a free country .

[6string]

Nothing happened to RFD, he posted an article from 2013. People don't read the thread in full only two or three posts above the point they comment, not just 6string it is the same everywhere.

Ah Yes. My mistake. I guess I get a bit myopic when using these devices, and seeing bold print!

[indian joe]

I see this statement a lot, how would a person measure the drop ? who pours an unknown amount freely from a flask. Many times (if the incident actually happened) other factors are at play as is the case in the original post, I have used a metal flask and horn with measure spout with a valve to close off spout from flask for years and it too was permitted at shoots years ago along with blowing down the barrel, the hobby and sport of black powder shooting is in danger of fading away in part because people think it's too dangerous because black powder is an explosive (not), guns blow up if you don't seat the ball (not true), your powder flask if used as it was intended will blow up in your hands (no), what a bunch of bull.
Modern smokeless powder has more energy than any black powder and it's just listed as powder, it's use blows up black powder guns more than any other cause.
The measure in the original post may have traveled as it did because the holder threw it (involuntary motion ) like putting your hand on a hot surface, as I stated above with regard to other factors, normally the time from shot to loading gives time for any smoldering to be done with, if you have a contaminated bore or are trying to speed shoot you may get unlucky and have a small Roman candle, odds are if you are using a horn the base cap will come off before pressure is high and most flasks made today will split the seams before ever being a hand grenade, the brass cylinder type have a valve and the measure of powder is in the spout and closed from the rest of the powder (bet if a sign of a flash started the thing would be flung), I know somebody is going to make a point that the flame can get past the valve , well it may but people around the forums hate Pattern breach stating the channel/antechamber is too restrictive for positive ignition ;) , the flask valves are designed to be a no flash valve if kept clean.
Anyway, the hobby/sport is fading away, many gun store don't stock powder because of restrictions and lack of demand, recycling old horror stories just drives the point, some post stories that are not true just to be part of a thread, you know how it goes,
" well a friend of my brother's uncle's nephew was looking at a container of black powder, can't remember what brand, anyway, he was looking at it so hard it blew up". We need to support the sport, not keep repeating half truth and wives tales . My 2 cents.

I have a couple of issues with this one
1) if you use a measure spout on your horn or flask and ignite from an ember down the barrel - the whole thing is going to burn really really really fast and choosing to say it didnt explode is an excercise in semantics - if you dont lose some fingers at the least the burns are gonna be serious.
2) good luck with the idea that the shutoff valve will stop the main reserviour of powder catching when the charge in the spout catches alight - it might ......might not too.
3) will it blow up ? no - yeah - maybe - dont know till you try - I seen remains of a couple horns turned into shrapnel - didnt see it happen...........
4) gun wont blow up if you dont seat the ball (he thinks) how many ring bulged barrels you seen from short started ball? 15/16" and 1" octagons with a visible bulge - do the same to a thin walled musket barrel - good chance you put a window in that one . Think blackpowder cant blow a barrel ? think again ol buddy - put more enough powder and more enough boolit in you will either blow the nipple out or split the tube at some point. There may be some limit to how much pressure blackpowder can generate when its confined but I believe it is several times what a good steel gun barrel can stand

[waksupi]

I have a couple of issues with this one
1) if you use a measure spout on your horn or flask and ignite from an ember down the barrel - the whole thing is going to burn really really really fast and choosing to say it didnt explode is an excercise in semantics - if you dont lose some fingers at the least the burns are gonna be serious.
2) good luck with the idea that the shutoff valve will stop the main reserviour of powder catching when the charge in the spout catches alight - it might ......might not too.
3) will it blow up ? no - yeah - maybe - dont know till you try - I seen remains of a couple horns turned into shrapnel - didnt see it happen...........
4) gun wont blow up if you dont seat the ball (he thinks) how many ring bulged barrels you seen from short started ball? 15/16" and 1" octagons with a visible bulge - do the same to a thin walled musket barrel - good chance you put a window in that one . Think blackpowder cant blow a barrel ? think again ol buddy - put more enough powder and more enough boolit in you will either blow the nipple out or split the tube at some point. There may be some limit to how much pressure blackpowder can generate when its confined but I believe it is several times what a good steel gun barrel can stand

I would sure prefer smokeless power igniting than black powder. Smokeless wouldn't be nearly as exciting.

[waksupi]

There is no suction, I don't know what you are muzzle contact shooting but that would be spray/splatter.

In order for a projectile to be sent, gas has to be produced quickly and in greater volume than the bore capacity (x amount of cubic inches of space, more cubic inches of gas), when the projectile is exiting the bore excess gas flashes outward around the projectile, because the gas volume is greater than the cubic capacity of the bore you have exhaust not suction.
Basic ballistics, physics.

As this relates to the person that first posted the suction comment, the ball leaving the barrel is being driven by expanding gas, not being pulled from the barrel like a tight fitting patch on a jag when cleaning, no suction exists to pull embers out, they are forced out or stick to a contaminated bore (oil/melted patch lube, paper etc).

How can there be splatter with a bullet and gases exiting the bore? Anything ahead of the bullet is moving at impact velocity away from point of impact. When you vacate a tube at velocity, what do you think fills that void, and how? Do you think it remains the same air pressure indefinitely? I don't think you understand the dynamics of internal ballistics.

[Battis]

Just trying to wrap my brain around the idea of inward suction in a gun barrel. Does it happen with all bullets or just BP roundballs exiting the muzzle? If there was suction, how would gasses escape through the touchhole?
If you drop a ball down a PVC pipe that's up against the surface of water, the ball, as it exits the pipe, will push through the water's surface, and behind the ball will be splatter that could go up the pipe.

[indian joe]

Not sure if this is suction, but this guy claims wads, under the boolit and on top of the powder get sucked back to the back of the barrel when firing.


http://geojohn.org/BlackPowder/Musketoon/ShootingTheFlintlock.html

I think his ramrod and/or the wads is too small diameter and the wads are tipping sideways when he rams them down (easy enough to do) the wads end up sideways and pushed down in the powder charge

[maillemaker]

I've been competition shooting in the North-South Skirmish Association for about 9 years. In that time I have had 3 cookoffs during rapid-fire team events, in both a smoothbore reproduction M1842 musket and a reproduction P53 Enfield. I have also witnessed/heard at least 2 other cookoffs on the line in that time.

Mine always happened on the second shot. It is possible that there was wet/fouled powder that was smoldering, but it's also possible that the cheap medical gauze pads I use for cleaning patches between each course of fire left some fuzz/lint in the bore and it was smoldering.

The N-SSA does not allow loading from a flask. Most people use plastic/cardboard tubes full of powder, with the bullet stuck in as a cork. To use, you remove the bullet, pour in the powder (while keeping your hands and fingers away from the muzzle), and then place the bullet in the muzzle with two fingers (and never "thumb the ball"). Because of this loading procedure, I did not experience any ill effects from my cookoffs. However, I still have black powder embedded in the pad of my forefinger, a kind of black powder "tattoo".

I personally would never place my head over the barrel of a gun, even if I "knew" it was "unloaded". But, people will have to decide for themselves whether this risk is comparable to the risk of a cookoff.

I also would never load from a flask.

But, it is up to each shooter to decide for themselves what kind of risks they find acceptable.

Steve

[FLINTNFIRE]

You are blowing down barrel before you put any powder in , there is no risk of any powder igniting.

[maillemaker]

You are blowing down barrel before you put any powder in , there is no risk of any powder igniting.

I understand, but the 4 rules of firearm safety are:

1) Treat every firearm as if it were loaded.
2) Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire.
3) Never point a firearm at anything you do not wish to destroy.
4) Always be sure of your target and what lies beyond it.

The problem is not when you do it when everything is safe. The problem is once you allow yourself to get into the habit of sometimes putting your body over the muzzle, if you ever end up in a situation where something happened where it is not safe (say you forgot it was loaded), you could be in danger.

Things happen. I've double-balled a musket before because I got distracted on the firing line trying to hand someone some percussion caps when they ran out.

It's up to each person to decide which rules to follow or not.

Steve

[rfd]

I understand, but the 4 rules of firearm safety are:

1) Treat every firearm as if it were loaded.
2) Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire.
3) Never point a firearm at anything you do not wish to destroy.
4) Always be sure of your target and what lies beyond it.

It's up to each person to decide which rules to follow or not.

Steve

Who made those "hard fast" rules and why?

BDTB is a SAFETY MEASURE for intelligent, coherent, focused shooters. It MAY not be a smart thing for newbie, lackadaisical, or stupid shooters to entertain. One set of global rules for the stupids at the expense of the smarties. Just ever expanding politically correct rules for all, no matter what.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Are these the 4 commandments ? I have a set of rules of my own as I am an adult , another reason I prefer to shoot with friends and other experienced shooters unless teaching someone to shoot , then it is watch and learn and this is why you do this and you do not do that .

When blowing down a muzzle loader it has just been fired and you have not had time or set it down somewhere where someone or some entity unknown to you has snuck a charge down the barrel , when blowing your hands are nowhere near the trigger , I guess if you took your shoes off your toe could be there , and along with the phantom charge would be a bad day .

Well you do your thing , I will do mine and the world still turns and my rifles fouling is still softer and easier to load .

I have not double balled a gun , handing caps to someone who is out reminds me of a young man years ago asking for a cap when I had already told him to have them ready and how to keep one quick to hand Lack of planning on his part did not constitute an emergency on mine hey buddy could you spare a dime I do not feel like working so maybe you could go to work and give to me .

[maillemaker]

Who made those "hard fast" rules and why?

No idea, but my dad taught them to me 40 years ago.

Anyway, like I said, everyone has to make their own grown-up decisions about safety.

If you're comfortable pointing your gun at your head, that's fine by me.

Steve

[maillemaker]

By the way, out of curiosity I googled who invented the 4 rules of firearm safety and the answer is Jeff Cooper (1920-2006).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_safety

Other organizations offer similar rules.

[rfd]

Yes, Jeff Cooper. Rules are guidelines for people to employ and observe with common sense. If one were to consider the 4 rules of firearms as absolute commandments, would they be right or wrong during the loading of any muzzleloader, where hands/fingers will linger in front of the muzzle? Or is that an exception to the firearms rules simply because there is no other way to get powder and ball into the tube without breaking Jeff's rules?

I think most rational people will understand the common sense need to modify Jeff's rules when it comes to muzzleloaders. Adding in BDTB is a clear and precise safety measure that's steeped in common sense. Do what y'all will, but there is no way I'm going to pour powder down the tube of a just-fired muzzy unless I'm sure the bbl is safe from igniting said powder.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Ah Jeff Cooper , did he not make a comment about the ar-15 being a poodle shooter , but in another photo I saw it shows him with a mini-14 funny how that works , Jeff Cooper was a legend and I enjoyed most of his writing even if not agreeing with all of it .

My hands are in front when pouring powder and when placing ball and while ramming the load home , guess I violate rules where and when I see fit , I know shame on me .

This is where common sense and experience come into play , I try to pack light when going afield and that is part of the enjoyment of muzzle loaders , a little closer to old times and simplicity .

We should all practice safety and common sense while we enjoy our hobby , I am not advocating anyone should change their own method of loading and shooting , that is your own concern , and since I shoot away from people as much as possible it makes no never mind to me .

[charlie b]

I would still rather use a tube to blow down the barrel.

[freakonaleash]

Great argument. Can I get in now? Or is it too late.[smilie=b:

[rfd]

What argument? :)

[waksupi]

Ah Jeff Cooper , did he not make a comment about the ar-15 being a poodle shooter , but in another photo I saw it shows him with a mini-14 funny how that works , Jeff Cooper was a legend and I enjoyed most of his writing even if not agreeing with all of it .

My hands are in front when pouring powder and when placing ball and while ramming the load home , guess I violate rules where and when I see fit , I know shame on me .

This is where common sense and experience come into play , I try to pack light when going afield and that is part of the enjoyment of muzzle loaders , a little closer to old times and simplicity .

We should all practice safety and common sense while we enjoy our hobby , I am not advocating anyone should change their own method of loading and shooting , that is your own concern , and since I shoot away from people as much as possible it makes no never mind to me .

Sometimes you may just have to shoot a poodle!

[Mmacro]

What’s the feeling on fouling shot followed up by a ramrod and dry patch? That should also work to extinguish any smoldering embers.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Shot a coyote once with a muzzle loader , dropped like a rock , was a 50 caliber though .

[Capn Jack]

I have four, 20 pound tanks of propane for my grills and heaters in my garage. You want to talk about an explosive possibility!

You summed it up right there. "Possibility"

[longbow]

I can agree that it is safer in principle to use the rubber hose idea for blowing down the barrel after each shot. I believe that blowing down the barrel directly, or with rubber hose, until no smoke is seen escaping nipple or flash hole proves there is nothing still burning down there. Necessary or not as you say is up to each shooter and whether shoot rules, if you are at a shoot, allows blowing down the barrel directly or not. But as far as safety goes does no-one ever look down the bore when cleaning the gun? Do you not put your hand in front of the muzzle when ramming a ball? I realize a shot to the hand is not deadly like a shot to the head or body but still, safety is safety.

If you have forgotten if you put powder in or rammed a ball down the bore then just drop your ramrod in and check level. Simple to prove the gun is empty or not. If not then don't go putting body parts in front of the muzzle!

Same applies to breech loader... do you look down the bore after cleaning?

If you are proving the gun is safe before placing body parts in front of the bore there should be no issue.

My opinion for what it is worth.

Longbow

[dtknowles]

The four rules, like most rules have exceptions.

1) Treat every firearm as if it were loaded.
2) Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire.
3) Never point a firearm at anything you do not wish to destroy.
4) Always be sure of your target and what lies beyond it.

Some times the exceptions are common sense, like when cleaning a gun. Other times they are willful risk taking.

Life involves risks and judgement calls. I will still load from flasks with measuring spouts. Is there a risk, sure, I think that risk is vanishingly small. While I can imagine loading a cap and ball revolver some other way, I would only do it some other way because I did not have a proper measuring spout.

I think the rules are actually very good. If you were properly taught them then it makes you think twice before you break them, take exception to them.

Tim

[indian joe]

What’s the feeling on fouling shot followed up by a ramrod and dry patch? That should also work to extinguish any smoldering embers.

mmmmmm good way to push a bunch of crud down to the powder channel and initiate a hangfire or fail to fire next shot

Also - what do you fellers see as a fouling shot ??

mine is (always) a full load fired into the mound - I dont clean between shots and I want that first one on target to go the same place as all the others - dont see any point at all in setting off a loose powder charge to foul the barrel ?

[rfd]

Fouling control, if need be, will also depend on the type of breech plug. Running a bore sized patched jag down the tube will push crud into those offshore patent breech plugs, which will require running a patched smallbore brush into the ante-chamber. Anyway ya look at it, at the very least there's gonna be fingers and hands lingering over that deadly open muzzle. I'm scared ... not.

[waksupi]

mmmmmm good way to push a bunch of crud down to the powder channel and initiate a hangfire or fail to fire next shot

Also - what do you fellers see as a fouling shot ??

mine is (always) a full load fired into the mound - I dont clean between shots and I want that first one on target to go the same place as all the others - dont see any point at all in setting off a loose powder charge to foul the barrel ?

I do find my guns shoot a bit better after a fouling shot.

[CTI1USNRET]

You got me to thinking. I use this to run water from the sink through my trumpet. I'm going to get another and put it in my BP kit. I'll use it with my 54 cal Lyman GPR. It fits down the barrel.

Thanks for sharing your experience and glad you're OK.

278711

[charlie b]

mmmmmm good way to push a bunch of crud down to the powder channel and initiate a hangfire or fail to fire next shot

Also - what do you fellers see as a fouling shot ??

mine is (always) a full load fired into the mound - I dont clean between shots and I want that first one on target to go the same place as all the others - dont see any point at all in setting off a loose powder charge to foul the barrel ?

Yes, a fouling shot is a full power load, or near that. You want the pressure build up so you get more efficient burning of the charge.

Throwing just some powder in the bore and setting it off (even with a wad) does not 'foul' the bore, it just makes a mess :)

[charlie b]

For the 'sucks it back in' people I found this clip. Nice slow motion of a BP cannon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgqIWDPMALk&t=288s

Look at the 8:52 point and you can watch the muzzle during the entire sequence. The residual burning powder is still leaving the barrel at the end.

[TNsailorman]

I love the video's of the old cannons firing. Can't get enough. james

[charlie b]

I like any video of cannons. Used to love going to the firing ranges with the tanks. What I did not like was being the range OIC and waiting for the fog to lift. Later on thermal sights fixed that :)