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View Full Version : Where did all the good old companies go???



mikenbarb
12-23-2008, 09:21 PM
Im just wondering why and what happened to all the old companies that made great reloading and casting equipment like Potter, Herter's, Hollywood Gun Shop, Hensley & Gibbs, Modern Bond, Saeco pots, etc, etc. Its a shame that all of this stuff is lost over time and noone has taken them over to manufacture what they used to because it was mostly great quality stuff that lasted forever compared to the new junk thats imported. What would it take to buy one of those old patents and start making something again that was made a long time ago? Im just so supprised that a company like Herter's wasnt bought out by someone that had money to keep the ball rolling because it seems that they were the king of mail order in the 60's. Plus they made real good reloading equipment that was made to last for generations.

zampilot
12-23-2008, 09:38 PM
Herters was bought out, by who I cant remember. Eventually their stuff was discontinued, or bought out and shelved. Anyone for a .401 PowerMag!

HeavyMetal
12-23-2008, 10:14 PM
H&G sold out to Balisticast, Owners do get old and sell!

Saeco sold out to Redding, not sure who bought Herter's, Hollywood has been in and out of business several times in just the last ten years or so I think they are currently open.

The others got bought out or just retired. Bomar is a classic example they sold off and retired, I believe because of health reasons.

Then, of course, you have the comglomerates like RCBS, who have bought everyone worth having! Check the RCBS web site for our old freinds.

Forester
12-23-2008, 11:42 PM
I'm too young to remember the "good old companies" but do you think the best of what was available then was really better than the best of whats available now?

Look at the good stuff being turned out by Sinclair, Wilson, Forster, and Redding...Maybe they are the "good new companies"?

mikenbarb
12-24-2008, 12:06 AM
Forester, They are all good OLD companies you mention(40's, 50's and 60's) but theres many more that made things much better than todays stuff and not around anymore. Possibly their stuff lasted too long and hurt them. Wilson, Redding and Forsters products havnt changed in years and its a great design and thats why they kept it. See, The old stuff is the good stuff and you never knew they were all older companies and not newer ones. Im sure the companies you mention have all been around since the 50's and 60's and some are older like Wilson.
:drinks:

mikenbarb
12-24-2008, 12:21 AM
http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo185/mikenbarbj/013.jpg

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo185/mikenbarbj/011.jpg

Heres the best of both worlds. In the middle is an old Herters Super 81 2 ram press, The right is a Rockchucker with a Piggyback and on the left is a lee Turret press. Hmmm, What one looks strongest to you??? I think the Herters by far and just look how thick the casting is.
PS- The Herters has two 12 gauge shells in the shell holders because I use it for some special shotgun slug loads and theres a 30-06 case for comparison of the ram size and their solid rams not hollow. Its a unique design and well ahead of the times with the 2 ram design that they made and I think its much smoother and stronger than any of the new ones made today.

cajun shooter
12-24-2008, 09:45 AM
Forester, you are young if you think that the companies you listed are new. They are as old or older than the ones that Mike listed. Mike, I agree all that we have is a nostalgia road but I'm sure that previous generations had the same. The Packard, Studebaker, Stanley, and Lasalle. The Indian. and Henderson motorcycles. I've got to stop as I'm starting to, sorry can't finish as I have something in my eye.

mikenbarb
12-24-2008, 10:54 AM
I had to reminisce some and just dug out a bunch of 30-06 cases and loaded up 2 boxes on the old Herters Super 81. WOW, I forgot how smoothly it worked plus it was effortless for FL sizing them and I think its going to have a permanent home on my bench after I make room for it. Now I just gotta make room for my Hollywood 12 station turret.:-D

1hole
12-24-2008, 02:10 PM
Somewhat puzzled about your points.

"...manufacture what they used to because it was mostly great quality stuff that lasted forever compared to the new junk thats imported."

I've been loading since '65 and don't know of any "new junk" that's imported. To what are you speaking?


"... supprised that a company like Herter's wasnt bought out by someone that had money to keep the ball rolling because it seems that they were the king of mail order in the 60's. Plus they made real good reloading equipment that was made to last for generations."

I remember Herters well, you are right that they were THE source for young guys like me with growing families and needed to stretch a few bucks! Still have ONE remaining big Herter's catalog, a 1967, that I enjoy thumbing through on rainey Saturdays sometimes. Didn't buy as much as I should have but, like all young folk, I thought things would last forever as they were. Wrong. But Herters wasn't a manufactor at all but they seemed to have a gadget for every need, real or perceived!

Like Sears, Herters contracted for items from various makers and had the Herters labels put on. That's how they could sell such a wide variety of simular products. The catalogs have several pages showing different designs of dies at widely varying costs for common cartridges! Some think Hornady "invented" their sliding bullet seating guide. Not so, Herters had it in the early sixties! All of the dies I got from them were good, internally any way.

Herters presses were indeed massive. They were almost entirely of cast iron, including the handles, and it took a lot of iron to hold them together! Good tools, but no better than any modern ones I know of.

Herters sold me several semifinished gun stocks in the 60s. They offered a lot of value but Richards Microfit stocks are still around and their quality is just as good. And Richard's basic stock designs are MUCH more attractive!

I miss those days for many reasons but today is much better for us. We now have a wider variety of high quality tools, some only dreamed of back then, for lower cost (based on inflation of prices and wages) than then. This IS the "golden age" of reloading! Pray our political "liberal leaders" don't deprive us of it.

Hardcast416taylor
12-24-2008, 02:41 PM
Last spring evil bay had several listers of single boxes of 401 brass. I believe 1 box of virgin brass went for near $70. The other brass was fired and not all there, it still went for $50. You know you`re old when the head gunsmith at William`s Gunsight for almost 20 yrs. had never heard of it? :roll: :( Robert

atr
12-24-2008, 03:14 PM
I really miss Herters, I still am using the Herters press I bought in the 60's as well as their dies. My biggest regret is that I didn't save the catalogues !!!...well actually I did save them but my sister had a huge garage sale while I was in Nam and out they went. I did buy gunstock from Herters and they were good pieces of wood ! I think the biggest difference between todays reloading stuff and back in the good ole days is that you could find companies like Herters which offered solid value at bargin prices but its hard to find that now...I mean finding those "bargins"

georgewxxx
12-24-2008, 04:07 PM
http://www.herters.com/
Herters was back in business several years ago selling mostly clothing and duck hunting supplies if I remember right. Now days check out this ad from Herters in a Cabela's web-page....Geo

tonyb
12-24-2008, 06:15 PM
The RCBS RS I have when I'm not reloading, it's great for doing arm curls[smilie=1:

mikenbarb
12-24-2008, 06:18 PM
1hole, The Herters side loaders were supplied to them by KRUPP and were private labeled by them. And from what I have heard, RCBS is sourcing out lots of their reloading equipment now including the new RC press. I know of two so far that broke due to bad castings. Im a big fan of Herters stuff and I even still have one of their laminated stocks which were almost unheard of at that time. I also own a Super 3, Super 81, Super 234, Super O and a U press and love each one of them and still use them all from time to time plus I have lots of other items that have the Herters name. I think out of all my Herters stuff I like the Professional Guides Manual and Bull Book Book the best and have incredible info and recipes. Im comparing my Super 81 to a Rock Chucker and the Super 81 is by far stronger than the RC plus it takes alot less effort to FL size and swage boolits with it. Dont get me wrong because I own a ton of new equipment and swear by alot of it but im just a big fan of the oldies and always will be.

Phil
12-24-2008, 07:36 PM
I had a Model 3 or Super 3 more years ago than I want to think about. I think the big difference was in the shell holder setup. Bought it new. Seems to me like there was an issue with getting the handle to stay in the upright position. Anyhow, one day the handle fell down, broke right through the pivot pin hole, and fell "kerlunk" on the floor. I heated it up in the oven for several hours, brazed it back together, and used it for quite some time after that. When I could afford it I bought a new RCBS Rockchucker and am still using it. This has to be at least 35 years ago. I gave the Herters to a young guy just starting out, and to my knowledge, he used it for many years.

Merry Christmas all,

Phil

deltaenterprizes
12-25-2008, 11:13 AM
The 1968 Gun Control Act is what killed Herters and a lot of other gun related businesses,just like the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban and Brady Bill and other impediments to freely buy and sell firearms and ammunition.
Before 1986 you needed an FFL to buy or sell ammunition or components in interstate commerce.The USPS still does not allow ammunition to be shipped in the mail and to the letter of Federal law components are not allowed.

GLOCKENNBOOMER
12-25-2008, 04:50 PM
Made in China
Made in Taiwan
Made in Mexico
Made in Honduras

Texasflyboy
12-25-2008, 07:17 PM
H&G sold out to Balisticast, Owners do get old and sell!


Wayne Gibbs once told me in an answer to the question "Why did you decide to close the doors to Hensley & Gibbs in 1999?"

His answer was pretty much to the point. Liability insurance. For years the shop had nice affordable coverage for liability. In 1998 when the policy came up for renewal he was asked what his product was....his answer was bullet moulds.

The renewal quote that came back based on that answer is what caused him to close the doors.

He said he would have kept going because he loved what he did, but based on the lack of affordable liability insurance and his desire to enjoy life, he decided it was time to move on.

FWIW....

mikenbarb
12-26-2008, 12:05 AM
Damn insurance companies! Im sure he could afford insurance now with what his molds are going for used. Just think of what he could sell a new one for now. Im sure it would reach upwards of 300.00+ if they were limited production made by himself. Its a shame that greed over money is closing the doors of some great companies. I wouldnt ever think of liability with a boolit mold but just like you said, The word "Bullet" was in the sentence so they instantly panic and throw 3 extra figures in the quote just to protect their butts. He should have just told them machined cast lead forms.LOL.

Down South
12-26-2008, 01:38 AM
Mikenbarb, Your reloading bench reminds me of mine. There never seems to be an extra square inch of room on it. :bigsmyl2:

cajun shooter
12-26-2008, 10:19 AM
Mike, it's not the insurance companies although they are greedy. It's the damn lawyers. They have put many a good hard working family run business out of work. Go and look at the side of a ladder and read all the warning stickers. Each one because of a lost lawsuit. When lawyers and courts stop rewarding stupid acts then and only then will things be normal. Own a Ruger, read the bbl crap. Again all because of a lost law suit. This country will put itself under by trying to pass laws that try to protect stupid people from stupid acts. "IT CAN'T BE DONE". Know what they call a bus full of lawyers going over a cliff? A DAMN GOOD START!!

mikenbarb
12-26-2008, 10:41 AM
I agree and its the truth that one stupid lawsuit can screw it up for a real long time because then its considered a reference case for future lawsuits in the same area. They should just stop being a bunch of wimps and face that they are wrong and deal with their own stupid mistakes.

Down South, Thats a clean day on my bench.LOL. I need to spend a whole day organizing it all because its getting crowded and the wife wont let me take over another room in the house. She thinks im crazy but we all know the truth.:wink: :veryconfu

1hole
12-26-2008, 02:00 PM
"Damn insurance companies!"

I really don't blame the insurance people, even tho I mostly hate the rats, nor lawyers, even tho I mostly hate the rats. The fault basically lies with us "common folks" who sit on juries and vote to "help" some poor stupid soul who shot himself in the foot and will now have ot live as a crippple, etc. I used to teach sport SCUBA diving but quite, largely because I couldn't bring myself to charge what it took to cover my liability insurance each year.

There are still three Herter's stocks in my gun safe, one is a laminated walnut/maple target model on my old 03-A3 action with a heavy .308 barrel. Wish I'd gotten more but...the kids needed to new dresses and dentist trips so much of my gun stuff had to wait. Waited too long.

Anyway, guess I could afford more fluff now but now I'm too old to much want anything else. And that's not a bad way to be. :)

Hope all yawl had as nice a Christamas as I!

Pressman
12-26-2008, 04:17 PM
Most of the old companies folded because they could not compete for several reasons. Non standard design is paramount. Under capitalization and lack of business sense was also common. The press as we know it was a Pacific design and copied by everyone else. RCBS modified the Pacific design with a new type of linkage that gave much greater mechanical advantage.

Herter’s was sold to an investment company from Mitchell South Dakota. The CEO of that company is now the CEO of Cabela’s. Reason for sale; George was getting along in years and his son did not want the company.
Herter’s had three spin off companies based in Glenwood Mn. The first was Luger American, followed by Ruhr American and then by Krupp American. Generally these companies sold Herter’s reloading equipment with some changes. They were painted green. Luger American tools are marked as such. The other two may, or may not, be marked.
Later Herter’s MkI dies were made by C-H. The “window” seater die is a C-H design and was also sold by them.
Potter closed the doors because the design was non standard and offered no advantage. GT Smiley is the same, Texan tried and died four times with bankruptcy. C-H is still alive though just barely. The current owner is getting along in years also. The original founder was killed in a car accident, along with his entire family, in 1961. The company was sold several times after that.
Pacific invented the reloading press as we know it along with the dies and primer punch. They were sold in 1960 to Deitmier in Nb. He sold them to Hornaday. RCBS got started after WWII with a new idea in press design. Everyone copied it after the patent expired.
Echo was sold to a company in Quebec called Quaco, who could not make it go. Bair is a startup after a falling out with Pacific. Bair machine shop made Pacific tools. Bair bought out Micro Precision. Schissel made the H presses for Micro Precision and Bair. Precision Reloader folded after the mysterious death of the founder.
P&O was non standard and folded for not having a design advantage. Saeco presses were no different than the Pacific, though with some neat features. They were bought by RCBS who did sell the powder measure for a few years. Redhead was OK and used Lyman 5/8” dies. The owner got old and closed it. The buyers of Hollywood did not have good business sense and got into an expensive legal troubles with the original owner.
Easton had good designs but lacked marketing. Jordan was expensive and complicated to make and non standard. Lachmiller was sold twice and the name dropped. Their design was no better than any other. That covers most of the names, but there are more.

Ken

mikenbarb
12-27-2008, 10:30 PM
1hole, Do you mean a Herters stock like this one?:-D
http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo185/mikenbarbj/005-5.jpg

http://i374.photobucket.com/albums/oo185/mikenbarbj/007-4.jpg

This is a Herters laminated Grand Deluxe stock made in 1968 and purchased for 24 bucks! Its made from Rock Maple and American Black Walnut with 1/8" laminations. This was considered the BEST target stock at the time and are still great stocks that look incredible.
Yes, Their still out there but real hard to find. You can always tell a Herters by that classic cheekpiece they had.

Ken, Thank you for your wealth of knowledge. I printed your reply and put in my book that I use for keeping history on reloading equipmentbecause most of that I didnt know and I just learned alot. Thanks again.

stiles
01-03-2009, 01:07 AM
Some think Hornady "invented" their sliding bullet seating guide. Not so, Herters had it in the early sixties! All of the dies I got from them were good, internally any way.


Vickermans had an inline seating die back to the early to mid 50's.

TAWILDCATT
01-04-2009, 09:36 PM
my first press was a herter and I still have it with dies and shell holders.actually my first was a modern bond while I was in service.I have all the tooling.but lost the press.but have three molds and they are as good or better than any.
I had a G43 stocked by herter and glass bedded for $25.herter was the Lee of that time.I have two molds by herter and I think they were made by lyman.
the poter was a good machine we had one in the club which I sold and got two bairs which are still used.thats the club you should be near as they took 25,000 lb of lead out a few yrs ago,400 pistol shooter can produce a lot of lead.:coffee:
[smilie=1:

Hang Fire
01-05-2009, 12:46 AM
Im just wondering why and what happened to all the old companies that made great reloading and casting equipment like Potter, Herter's, Hollywood Gun Shop, Hensley & Gibbs, Modern Bond, Saeco pots, etc, etc. Its a shame that all of this stuff is lost over time and noone has taken them over to manufacture what they used to because it was mostly great quality stuff that lasted forever compared to the new junk thats imported. What would it take to buy one of those old patents and start making something again that was made a long time ago? Im just so supprised that a company like Herter's wasnt bought out by someone that had money to keep the ball rolling because it seems that they were the king of mail order in the 60's. Plus they made real good reloading equipment that was made to last for generations.

Mechanical patents are only good for 17 years, they then expire and become public domain. A design can be changed and re-patented, but not the original.

One can also take an original design, make a change to it that produces an unexpected result and can be patented by another for a different purpose.

Here are a couple where I made changes to simple check valves for a unique purpose and received patents, these patents have since expired.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=e3sPAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4


http://www.google.com/patents?id=M7Z1AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&dq=US+patent+number+4,468,194

Hang Fire
01-05-2009, 01:10 AM
I have read that Herter's was destroyed when his kids took the business over. The 68 GCA hurt, they then went to playing around in too many losing ventures and went belly up.

I think the wife still has one of his cook books. (the best and most perfect of course)

He sure was opinionated and did not hesitate to weigh in on any subject, they would hang him in today's PC world for some of the stuff he wrote, he didn't suffer fools gladly.

Tom Myers
01-05-2009, 01:25 PM
I have read that Herter's was destroyed when his kids took the business over. The 68 GCA hurt, they then went to playing around in too many losing ventures and went belly up.

If I remember correctly, Herter's was importing bird feathers for their fishing fly tying paraphernalia. Some of the imported feathers were from birds that were on the endangered species lists.
Someone snitched to the authorities and Herter was prosecuted and lost the case. Since the activity was a felony, Herter's could no longer be in business selling firearms and related items such as reloading supplies and such.

The business carried on for a while without firearm related items but eventually died. Probably as you said, his kids run it into the ground.

It was always my opinion, and only and opinion, that one, or some, of Herter's competitors blew the whistle on him, as the impression in those days was that, due to his outlandish claims and proclamations, he had made quite a few professional enemies.

Tom Myers

1hole
01-05-2009, 04:54 PM
"1hole, Do you mean a Herters stock like this one?"

EXACTLY SO! :)

JohnH
01-05-2009, 10:30 PM
Wayne Gibbs once told me in an answer to the question "Why did you decide to close the doors to Hensley & Gibbs in 1999?"

His answer was pretty much to the point. Liability insurance. For years the shop had nice affordable coverage for liability. In 1998 when the policy came up for renewal he was asked what his product was....his answer was bullet moulds.

The renewal quote that came back based on that answer is what caused him to close the doors.

He said he would have kept going because he loved what he did, but based on the lack of affordable liability insurance and his desire to enjoy life, he decided it was time to move on.

FWIW....

Not being argumentative; I don't doubt the quote, but it strikes me as being only half the story. If his insurance costs went up so did the insurance cost of every other maker of bullet molds. The whole story might be more like he wasn't making the volumn of molds that allowed him to compete is a specialty market which is increasingly dominated by makers with deeper pockets and broader product lines which helped offset any increases in insurance cost. And it could also be he was just tired and wanted to do something else with his life. I doubt insurance costs alone were the deciding factor, but considering all the other cost increases and other crap a business man faces, those increases could easily have been the straw that broke the camels back.

Any of you guys given thought to what kind of hurt is put on a small company like NEI when you send as much mold buying volumn as you do to LEE with your group buys?

While my figures may be a bit off, I remember reading several years back that Rugers firearms only generate about 10% of the companies revenue. They make more off golf club heads. Harley Davidson is one of the worlds largest makers of.....wait for it.....chainsaw engines. Diversity goes a long way helping a company stand the test of time.

skeet028
01-06-2009, 12:19 AM
Don't know about the imported feathers but way back yonder I sold 'em wood duck hides..and squirrel tails. I had an account with them and was also one of their licencees for firearm sales in Maryland. When they went out of business they had me take my balance in my account in merchandise. I got 2 of every game call they had for a dollar each. Some were even 2nds and so marked. Sold most of 'em now but still have some of their flies new in the packages...and a few reloading items. As stated most of the dies were made by CH. The presses were cast for them I think in Germany...maybe even East Germany knowing ol GLH. Best buy I ever made at Herters was a consecutive numbered pair of High Standard Tournament Military 22 target guns. Paid 'em 59 bucks each. 1972 I think. Still have quite a few of their catalogs....including their last. Just picked up a Hollywood Turret press and a couple sets of their dies including a set of 500 Express dies ,a set of 270 BR(30/40 case) and a set of 218 Bee...from one end of the spectrum to the other. Don't know what I'm gonna do with 'em...but hey...the price was OK!

jdowney
01-07-2009, 12:02 PM
Speaking of old stuff, my press is an A.A. Easton. Missing the primer seating mechanism, but the rest seems to work ok. Just made a new handle for it (would have started reloading waaay earlier in life if I'd done that sooner!). From the look of the linkage I doubt its got as good leverage as a modern press, but should work fine for 9mm and 32 special. My dad used to do his .257 Roberts reloads with it.

Pressman
01-07-2009, 03:19 PM
Easton's are really different. Which model do you have? The Big Giant or the Super? The Big Giant takes a unique primer punch ( I have one) but the Super seems to use Lyman Tru Line primer seaters. My is missing then seater but the Lyman worked when I tried it.
Ken

jdowney
01-07-2009, 04:59 PM
Not sure which it is (its at home, I'm at work - 375 miles away!)

But its the one in the pic below --
10459

Doesn't seem to be a lot of info on this press. Aside from the direction of the handle (lift rather than lower to press) I like the design - probably was real cheap and easy to produce compared to a casting - whole thing's made of bar stock.

Pressman
01-07-2009, 06:43 PM
That is the Big Giant. You are correct on the not to much information. It is a replacement for the Little Giant that was made before and during WWII. It seem to have been somewhat short lived before being replaced by the Super. The Super works on the same principle but is a heavy casting that does not look anywhere as nice as the Big Giant.
All then giants are serial numbered, I would be curious what number yours is.
Shellholders are really hard to find.
Ken

jdowney
01-07-2009, 06:48 PM
Standard shell holders seem to fit in mine... at least there's an RCBS #2 in it right now, haven't swapped it out yet. I'll take some pics when I get back next week.

Pressman
01-08-2009, 12:22 PM
That sounds great, I will be looking for pictures. As you have said there is little in print about these presses. I did not know there was an RCBS adapter made for them.
Mine has serial number C 196. I would like to know if there were A and B serial numbers.
Here is a picture of the shellholder and primer punch from mine. Changing that shellholder is a finger mashing affair if you are not careful.:(

bart55
01-10-2009, 06:19 PM
just a moment remembering the herters catalog, It read like a novel with a glowing description of every item, I still look over some of my old herters books and dream . I bought everything from bullets to winemaking supplies to cookbooks and trotline supplies . What a great company that was .

qajaq59
01-15-2009, 11:51 AM
I still am using the Herters press I bought in the 60's I'm still using mine as well, and it was used when I bought it. Plus I suspect that when my grand kids are 70 it'll still be working for someone. I seriously doubt anyone could wear it out, and I know for sure that no one short of Superman could possibly break it. :-D

Hackleback
01-15-2009, 02:12 PM
Saeco is owned by Redding??

BTW, I would buy a 401 power mag, if for anything, just the "funk factor"

3006guns
01-15-2009, 07:50 PM
I was first introduced to Herters in the early 60's and my first purchase was an all maple stock for one of those "junky old Krags". The stock was their bottom of the line, straight grain job and I had a fore end tip added before shipping. The stock arrived and had more birdseye than any piece of wood I've seen since. The rifle action dropped right in. Gawd, it was nice. Total cost? $11.25 + 2.00 shipping.

Their catalog was a joy to read.......everything was "model perfect"! I remember the price of their .22 "guide" revolver at $24.95 and all of the reloading equipment was just as much of a bargain. Even at minum wage back then, I was able to afford outdoor gear.:Fire:

Had a copy of George Herters "Bull Cook Book", but the ex (may she rot) got off with it years ago.

Anyone remember the carved furniture they had in the catalogs? Despite the glowing Barnum and Baily description, it was without a doubt, the most garish looking stuff I'd ever seen! But then again, all of my taste is in my mouth.....:mrgreen:

BPCR Bill
01-15-2009, 08:04 PM
I guess we just have to buy specialty equipment, and lots of it now. The old Herters and Hollywood presses were capable of much more than reloading. You could form radical cases, and swage just about any size boolit on these monsters. Try that on any new Redding, RCBS, or Lee. You'd break them in no time. Now you have to get a specialty swaging outfit from someone like Corbin to form cases or swage boolits. Not that the product is bad, but the idea of one piece of gear that can do just about anything you can imagine is nice.

Regards,
Bill

mikenbarb
01-16-2009, 08:27 PM
3006Guns, That Herters furniture is bringing top dollar now by clooectors. I think the last piece I saw sell was for $8,000.00 and that was a smaller table. I have the Bull Cookbook and the Guides manual and I love to page thru them from time to time. I also have a few catalogs and its funny just to read how they worded all their equipment. Like said, Everything was a "Perfect" model.LOL. The strongest Herters press I have is the Super 81 2 ram and the Super 234 Turret. The turret alone is 20+ pounds and over an inch thick! I have put a small cheater pipe on the handle swaging 45's with it and never budged to even think about breaking.

qajaq59
01-17-2009, 05:58 AM
I think all the old manufacturers got on a "My press is stronger then your press." kick until it reached the point of being silly. And then they all backed off to where we are now. However, in the meantime, they built some presses that will last forever.

3006guns
01-17-2009, 09:05 AM
Mikenbarb, I think you may be confusing Herter's furniture with Herter BROTHERS...a completely separate business based in New York I believe. And yes, their funiture DOES sell in the very high dollar range. Not to say that Herter's furniture isn't collectible.....but man, they had odd ideas of style! I'm going by memory (I'll have find another 1960's catalog) but I remember the stuff being festooned with gargoyles, grapes, leaves etc. Really nice carving but way too "busy" in my opinion. Reading George Herter's glowing description DID make you look though.....

Herter's reloading stuff was all good quality and bargain basement priced compared to Pacific, Hollywood, Lachmiller and that new upstart RCBS. Even with all the advances and improvements of today, we have to remember that these companies pioneered things through competition, the good 'ol American way.:-D

Bent Ramrod
01-17-2009, 10:43 PM
Herter's also marketed a line of foodstuffs, generally with an outdoor flavor, in their catalogs. I always thought their Hot Sauce ratings "Herter's Three-Alarm, Herter's Four-Alarm and Herter's Five-Alarm Hot Sauces" was a rating scale that the current Salsa manufacturers would do well to copy.

The cook book (3 volumes) is a unique milestone in cookbook literature. Many of the dishes have alleged historical antecedents to add interest ("This is what Marie Antoinette asked for as her last meal." "Wyatt Earp liked his doves cooked this way.") Others give the reader an agreeable sense of being inducted into an exclusive group of cognoscenti ("95% of Americans have no idea how to bake a potato/boil an egg/cook a steak/etc., correctly. This is how it should be done.") There are also valuable tips on how to choose a restaurant and how to survive an atomic attack. I was particularly intrigued by Herter's claim that his wife, Berthe E. Herter, could go into any restaurant in the world, order any dish on the menu, take one taste, and write down all the ingredients and their proportions in the recipe. THAT is talent!

Somebody should bring out a new edition of Herter's books. They're too good to lose to obscurity.

jdowney
01-18-2009, 04:14 PM
Ok Pressman, here's some pics-
10688
10689
I had to make the handle, Dad lost the original years ago, then ran a 5/8 11 tap in and used a large bolt as a handle. The original was probably 5/8 18, so I drilled through the block and threaded the whole thing for 5/8 11 so I had some good threads to work with.

There's a couple set screws holding the shell holder, I'd bet Dad added those as he couldn't find an original replacement holder.
10687
10686

Mine has none of the primer stuff on it, is it some sort of primer seating mechanism or is it designed to catch the spent primers?

Serial # is C5884. The 5 is smaller and looks almost like an afterthought, maybe they reused some older stuff and re-stamped it. I don't know if he bought it new or not, but he probably got it in the 1950's.

mikenbarb
01-18-2009, 11:29 PM
3006, I believe it was the regular Herters that sold sporting goods and it was one of their tables with a marble top from what I recall. I looked in their catalog and they had some nice furniture and it was all hand carved and most had marble on it somewhere. Cool stuff!:-D
ramrod, I have the one Bull cookbook(1963) and I still use it and some of the best meals I have had came from it. They make everything sound soooo good.LOL. The funniest section is the "How to avoid alcoholism and still drink". Its funny to read that stuff from back then.

Char-Gar
01-19-2009, 12:40 PM
I have been reloading since the late 50's when all of the "good old stuff" was available. For the most part we have a much wider and often better selection of loading tools today. Herters was the mail order "Lee Precision" of it's day. They made cheap and sold cheap. Like Lee their stuff worked, but should not be placed in the same catagory of Hollywood, Pacific and early RCBS equipment. Their stuff was hell stout, because of the shere volumn of metal in those presses. I still use one for some operations.

The only piece of equipment that I truly wish was still in the lineup was the RCBS A2 press. It was a little bigger than the Rockchucker, but was made from cast steel instead of cast iron. It was just the huckleberry for major case reforming and bullet swaging.

A friend once asked RCBS why they didn't produce it today and the answer was, it would cost well over $400.00 and folks would not pay that price for a single state press .Oh well, my 50's vintage A2 is still as good as new. Looks like hell, but works like a champ.

Oh yes, the Hollywood micrometer power measure is he best I have used. I still have two in regular use.

Long story short, don't spend to much time on nostalga. BAck in the 50's we would have been envious of what you guys have today.

Pressman
01-19-2009, 01:00 PM
Jdowney, Thanks for the pictures. Your handle should be 3/4" with 5/8" threads. Right under the shellholder slide there is a cross piece with a set screw in the front. The primer rod fits in that hole. It is a simple steel rod. I posted a picture of the rod and shellholder on one of the back pages.

Your serial number is way up there so some changes may have occured. The original desing used a shellholder with a 1/2" shank. The Super press that replaced this one used a Lyman J shellholder with a 9/16" shank. It would be a simple operation to ream the slide to 9/16" and use Lyman J shellholders, or one of the newer RCBS adapters.

Most interesting.
Ken

Pressman
01-20-2009, 05:06 PM
As a comparison to the Easton Big Giant above this is the Easton Super. All cast iron and not nearly as nice looking.
Ken

flhroy
01-21-2009, 02:29 AM
Im just wondering why and what happened to all the old companies that made..........

They're in old company heaven along with De Soto and La Salle, Federal (the trucks not the ammo) and Diamond RIO,. How about Massey Harris and Minneapolis Moline. Has anybody seen an Oliver lately?. Remember Philco TVs and testing vacuum tubes at the hardware store?

All were cutting edge technology in their day but as Charger said their day has passed. The old stuff is cool and can still get the job done but what we have and use today for the most part is so much better.

Take Care

Roy

qajaq59
01-21-2009, 06:50 AM
Ahhh, but we were young when they made that stuff, and that alone made it better. :-D

skeet028
01-21-2009, 09:08 AM
flhroy..you're old..maybe even older than me:roll::mrgreen: But some of the stuff we have today is so much better...And then a lot of what we have today is junk made in China that when it breaks ya might as well throw it out. Used to be able to fix a lot of the old stuff...even if it did break down..often!~:coffee:

3006guns
01-21-2009, 10:01 AM
Pressman.......I'm familiar with the Big Giant, but that's the first one of THOSE I've seen! Talk about a "laid back" press....what do you think the angle on that is?

I guess I can understand the idea of tilting the press slightly, but if you carry it to extreme it's a bit difficult to easily seat boolits....at least it is for me.....and if your charge is close to filling the case it risks spilling.

I have several of the older "angled" presses and enjoy them, just never seen one that extreme. Brings up another thought..I have one of the old Belding and Mull horizontal tools and could never figure out how you seated a bullet without loosing your powder because that baby is downright flat on the table. Reloaders back in the forties must have been a lot more skilled.........

Pressman
01-21-2009, 07:16 PM
3006 it appears to be a 45 degree angle. Why so extreme is an as of yet unanswered question.
For the B&M there are creative solutions to keeping the powder in the case. One is pictured below. Another was offered by Harpster & Williams, a maker of B&M tools. They has a Model 28 tool with an angled base that put the cartridge in a vertical position.
Ken

Bent Ramrod
01-22-2009, 12:43 AM
B&M also offered a separate bullet seating die, plunger and base, which worked vertically. You used it like a Lee Loader.

Pressman
01-23-2009, 12:59 PM
30-06, I was able to measure the Super and Big Giant. The Super is really layed back! 35 degrees. The Big Giant only slightly less so at 30 degrees. As a comparison the Herter's Model 3 is 15 degrees.
Note: all measurements made with a Starrett protractor and my uncalibrated eyeball.

Picture is teh B&M Model 26 seater. I have never used one. This one is in 35 Remington, a caliber that I never owned.
Ken

codgerville@zianet.com
02-02-2009, 11:18 AM
The reason that reloading presses and such keep breaking is that almost all of the castings are made in China, and they do not know how to produce good cast iron. Having just retired as a machinist I have welded many engine blocks and transmission cases, and if it ain't American made castings, you are in deep do-do.

booboo1000
03-07-2009, 02:53 AM
Do you remember the old Herters Recipe book it had a recipe for " Pond Scum Soup" also an article on how to get along with your Mother in Law. Sorry to see them pass/ I have a Bonanza Co-Ax Press that has loaded thousands of rounds, and it is still as good as new. Best Press ever made.

TAWILDCATT
03-09-2009, 06:03 PM
I can understand the tools going under and I suppose without them the molds went too.I have Modern bond molds and they are as good as any.the herters were probably cheap made lymans as that is the bullet style.the Saeco pot was same as lyman and when saeco went so did both pots Redding bought the molds
so maybe some one else made the pots.just look at RCBS and lyman they are related.[pots]modern bond had a tool that would make a good camp tool.
another idea is there were not the amount of reloaders back then.the potter was a good press for the tims but like star used odd threads.I converted a Lymand die by threading the knurled end.and herters universal die which I have couple is simular to LEEs.saeco died and his wife took over.:coffee:[smilie=1:

mikenbarb
03-09-2009, 11:58 PM
booboo, I have that book and it called the Bull Cookbook. Its got some great recipes in it along with ones that scare me to even think of trying them.
PS- Bonanza is still making the co-ax press and I want to get one when I can afford it. They say their a great press and never heard any bad about it.

skeet028
03-10-2009, 01:59 AM
Did a gun show this last weekend. Bought a bunch of (kinda) neat stuff i didn't need. But I sold a LOT of stuff I didn't need too. Two of the neat buys was a couple of old presses. Got an old Herters Super Model 3 in pristine condition. And yep...just as heavy as they used to be... in the same deal got an old Wells(they made the Herters stuff) that is a copy of the Model 3(not the super) and in the same deal was an old Savage 12 ga loader with the turret top single stage loader. Bought 'em all for 25 bucks. Did I get took or what?? Also got a Herters 44 bullet swage die set for 5 bucks. My best acquisition though was a new in the box forend and slightly used stock for a Remington 3200. Only gun I didn't sell that I wanted to go was a S&W M-19. People are REALLY worried about Nobama and the Democrats.. Oh well..So much stuff and ...sigh...so little money[smilie=6:

Bret4207
03-10-2009, 08:00 AM
Im just wondering why and what happened to all the old companies that made..........

They're in old company heaven along with De Soto and La Salle, Federal (the trucks not the ammo) and Diamond RIO,. How about Massey Harris and Minneapolis Moline. Has anybody seen an Oliver lately?. Remember Philco TVs and testing vacuum tubes at the hardware store?

All were cutting edge technology in their day but as Charger said their day has passed. The old stuff is cool and can still get the job done but what we have and use today for the most part is so much better.

Take Care

Roy

I dunno. Most of the old stuff was made with a higher quality aspect than todays stuff. I'm still using a 3 prong hay fork that has to be at least 60-70 years old on a daily basis. My Dad found it in the field near our house and that field hadn't been hayed since just after WW2. It hung in the rafters of our garage till I rescued it and found a nice handle at our old time hardware in town. You know the old style hardware? You got nails by the pound, rope came up though the floor from the 600 ft spool in the basement 2 stories below and you could still get wicks for the kerosene stove your great grandma bought there when she got married in 1894. Anyway, that handle was NOS and that fork is 50X better than the newer hay forks I have, same for the old shovels I bought at auction marked "D+H RR" for the Delaware and Hudson Rail Road or the Collins axes I find at auctions that are all at least 30 years old and left overs of the 70's back to the land movement. Better quality, made for using and worth several times what their modern counterparts are.

Bradley
03-14-2013, 12:35 AM
The 1968 Gun Control Act is what killed Herters and a lot of other gun related businesses,just like the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban and Brady Bill and other impediments to freely buy and sell firearms and ammunition.
Before 1986 you needed an FFL to buy or sell ammunition or components in interstate commerce.The USPS still does not allow ammunition to be shipped in the mail and to the letter of Federal law components are not allowed.

More decades ago than I can now remember I remember talking to Ron Peterson of Ron Peterson Guns of Albuquerque. He said that he had been offered Herters. The owner had died ( I don't know who that was) and the company was up for sale. Ron turned it down in part because most of the business dealing were in the owners head. Little of it was written down. So it would have been VERY hard to keep it going.

.22-10-45
03-14-2013, 02:22 AM
I won't even buy new Lyman moulds...the new CNC machining has done away with all the nice old sweeping curved ogives..now everything is stark angles..might shoot the same..or better..but I still like that victorian touch...seems to go better with single shots & single actions!

Texantothecore
03-14-2013, 11:56 AM
There are multiple reasons for the old companies going out of business:

1. Problem of Succession: Kids are frequently not at all interested in taking over the business as they are into other things, more high tech.
2. A lot of very high technology, metallurgy, cnc milling etc is used now to produce the equipment we buy. Many could not afford the initial investment in these wonderful machines.
3. Steel is much more expensive than it used to be. Many of the nice pictures provided by our members scream "Over Engineered" and although that is the way things used to be designed that started to change in the seventies and the change was very noticeable to me since I was in manufacturing.
4. Innovation in this industry sells. Hi-tech sells. It is difficult to compete in this kind of market.


On the other hand, there are more reloaders than ever and Lee Precision, being the price leader in this area, has done very well by providing equipment that works at a price that seems at times to be ridiculous. A c-frame press for 27.00, Lee Classic Loaders for 27.00 (which, to my surprise are in short supply, many calibers sold out and waiting for replenishment), the Lee hand press which is out of stock at many companies for 32.99 at Midway.

The industry has done a great deal to foster the hobby but many companies have sold out because it has become harder to compete.

How hard would you think it would be to go to the bank and get a loan for a factory to take on Lee Precision? It ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

On the other hand, many good custom operations are open for business and are flourishing due to the segmenting of the market into standard and special needs (LOL). Noe, Mihec, Accurate molds are doing pretty well and I hope that it continues that way.

Reg
03-14-2013, 11:56 PM
From what I understand, another reason Herters went under was not only the clash with the feds on the feathers but also was from a law suite with Rugar. Had some briefs around here years ago that told the story but just the same,losing a law suite is losing !!!!

Iowa Fox
03-15-2013, 02:33 AM
I dunno. Most of the old stuff was made with a higher quality aspect than todays stuff. I'm still using a 3 prong hay fork that has to be at least 60-70 years old on a daily basis. My Dad found it in the field near our house and that field hadn't been hayed since just after WW2. It hung in the rafters of our garage till I rescued it and found a nice handle at our old time hardware in town. You know the old style hardware? You got nails by the pound, rope came up though the floor from the 600 ft spool in the basement 2 stories below and you could still get wicks for the kerosene stove your great grandma bought there when she got married in 1894. Anyway, that handle was NOS and that fork is 50X better than the newer hay forks I have, same for the old shovels I bought at auction marked "D+H RR" for the Delaware and Hudson Rail Road or the Collins axes I find at auctions that are all at least 30 years old and left overs of the 70's back to the land movement. Better quality, made for using and worth several times what their modern counterparts are.

I love those old Hardware stores. I think they are mostly all gone around here anymore, not much of the old rural country left. About 70 miles north of us there are a few Amish country stores that are about as close as it comes. We really enjoy going there especially the bakery which still serves free coffee.

cajun shooter
03-15-2013, 09:16 AM
Bradley, You went way back to find that posting from one of my dear friends. Did you notice the post started in 2008? Mike&Barb has not been on this forum for a few years. His wife Barb passed away and he lost interest as he was left to raise his children.
I was taken back to see his name again. Later David