CVA Hawken Question

[Eddie2002]

My regular shooter is a CVA Hawken cap lock and I'm wondering about it's age. It has a brown barrel marked with "Connecticut Valley Arms", "Black powder only " and "Spain" with no proof marks. Serial number is 49*63 with no date or "K" for a kit. I know there's a lot of information available on the Mountain Rifle but can't find squat on dating the CVA Hawken. Just wondering if anybody could supply an approximate manufacturing date or at least the first year CVA offered the Hawken.
Thanks All

[Black Powder Bill]

How long have you owned it?

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk

[indian joe]

My regular shooter is a CVA Hawken cap lock and I'm wondering about it's age. It has a brown barrel marked with "Connecticut Valley Arms", "Black powder only " and "Spain" with no proof marks. Serial number is 49*63 with no date or "K" for a kit. I know there's a lot of information available on the Mountain Rifle but can't find squat on dating the CVA Hawken. Just wondering if anybody could supply an approximate manufacturing date or at least the first year CVA offered the Hawken.
Thanks All

Eddie my CVA's (several of them) are 1987 imports (dealer got a bulk buy I think) anyway these start the serial number with the year ..87 space then a six digit number ...a couple branded Dikar spain, a couple Connecticut Valley Arms, got one low number barrel with a 00xxx serial dont know whether its later or earlier I found these things hard to resist at the time, a kit gun for 120 bucks and a spare barrel for 50 !?... not the purtiest guns but never had one that wouldnt shoot right up there with the best

[Eddie2002]

BP Bill, I've had it for about ten years. Picked it up at a local gun show for $75.00 with the trigger assembly set too deep in the stock so it wouldn't fire. It had the reddish factory colored finish on it and the wood still had the machine marks on it from chiseling it out of the blank, saying it was as rough as a cob would be generous.

Indian Joe, I'm thinking mine is an earlier import, the serial number doesn't have a separate date stamp or code on it just the five digit serial number. It doesn't have the double "00" most CVA serial numbers start with either. I know the later models were marked "Hawken" next to the rest of the stuff on the barrel. I also found one thread that said the first year of production for the CVA Hawken was 1981 which seems a little late to me. Maybe that's when they started to stamp "Hawken" on the barrel, don't rightly know much about them and would think there would be more information out there since that model been around for a while. I'm a sucker for them also and will still pick one up at the drop of a hat if the price is right. Anyways thank for the replies, I'll keep looking around trying to find an answer.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I have one. The barrel is marked: Connecticut Valley Arms, Inc. Black Powder Only .50 Cal. Spain Hawken. Serial # Is 392xxx. Purchased from a major distributor in about August, 1987 as a nicely finished rifle with blue barrel. A very accurate rifle. I later bought a T/C Hawken as it seemd just a bit higher quality, but the CVA is the more accurate.

DG

[FLINTNFIRE]

Not sure on dating by serial number but some of the imports have marks or letters that relate to dates of manufacture , I owned a few CVA they shot fine , Have a TC new englander and have gave away a TC hawken and renegade along with a Traditions buckskinner , I know TC put the K in front of serial numbers to show it was a kit as factory finished had the warranty and kits did not have the same warranty.

[Black Powder Bill]

I have CVA product flyers from 1973-81-89 and a wholesale price guide from 1973.

There are all kinds of part numbers. Some of those bbl. Number may be a part numbers

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk

[mooman76]

CVA's manufacturer did not incorporate the dat code into the serial number until the 80s, I believe the late 80s. They also did not have a "K" designator for kit.

[Eddie2002]

Thanks for all the information, I'll give it an educated guess for it's manufacturing date as being somewhere between late 70's and early 80's. No proof marks and no date code or "00" on the serial number dates it before mid 80's. There is no "Hawken" on the barrel after "Spain"either which seems to indicate it's an earlier one also. That along with what appears to be a factory browned barrel and five digit serial number makes it appear to be an earlier manufacture. Seems to be almost impossible to accurately date anything made by CVA in their first few years but it was worth a try.

[Black Powder Bill]

Remember this admit seems.all muzzleloaders are Hawken.

Many look like but are not name Hawken.

I have a CVA Hunter Hawken

CVA also sold a Mountain rifle

Along side a dozen others


Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk

[Eddie2002]

BP Bill, I know about all the different front stuffers CVA has made and the rifle I'm asking about is a Hawken, there's no doubt about it. Thanks again.

Just spotted this Mountain Rifle on Gunbroker mislabeled as a Hawken. Not a bad deal for what looks like a second series .50 caliber cap lock. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/892864331

[FLINTNFIRE]

Not a bad looking rifle , was cruising gunbroker last week saw a Hawkin with a Douglas barrel was showing the browning on the barrel worn mostly off but not a bad looking gun , sent a email asking on bore condition , seller replied next morning it was sold , well for $300 I knew I should have picked it up .

Your CVA may have been a kit gun , as browsing online it seems some say the CVA kits had no date codes or such and I remember having a CVA kit in the earlier 70's and it had some heavy machining marks on the barrel that by the time it was smoothed and browned would have wiped out any stampings other then the deeper ones for model .

I have a gun I bought pretty cheap a few years ago locally , was told it was a Hawken but it has the English sporting lock and a shotgun butt with a single trigger , wrong screw holding hammer on and sear spring was not tempered correctly , looks like a R.E.Davis lock but is made different on internals and lock plate size , have yet to find a screw to fit it , and no marks on barrel as to who made the barrel or the gun , same with the lock no stampings or engravings of any kind .

Something among all the projects to get done .

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Eddie,

I have the CVA Hawken listed as 1981 introduction, available in 50 and 54 cal. percussion and flintlock with a 1" x 28" barrel with a 1:66 twist.

I have a St. Louis Hawken listed with an option of 1:66 or a 1:48 twist barrel, in 50 (Percussion of Flintlock), 54 Percussion, 58 Percussion, and 12 gauge full choke Percussion. Also a 50 caliber Left Hand Percussion. This is from the 1989 Catalog not listed as new, unknown introduction date.

And the new Hunter Hawken Rifle with a 1:66 twist 28” x 15/16” barrel in 50 or 54 caliber Percussion, and a Hunter Hawken Carbine with a 1:48 twist 24” x 15/16” 50 caliber Percussion barrel. This was also from the 1989 Catalog, so 1989 would have been the introduction.

Hope this helps, AntiqueSledMan.

[Eddie2002]

SledMan, thanks a whole lot for the information, it confirms some of the stuff I found elsewhere. Seems the CVA Hawken was introduced in 1981 both from what your documentation says and from other sources. Starting around 1987 the date or date code, proof marks and rifle type like Hawken or Frontier were added to the information on the barrel. I'm going to guess that my rifle was manufactured in the early 80's before 1987 when all the rest of the stuff was added. Need to check the rate of twist on my rifle, always thought it was a 1:48 but your info shows that it might be a 1:66, it looks like my barrel is 1 inch across the flats but need to mic it. Talk about going down a rabbit hole

[mooman76]

Hawken's were famous for their 1-48 twist, that's why most modern copies are the same. Not sure why CVAs weren't that way or at least at first. I think later on they did along with a few other twists.

[Eddie2002]

I think I've figured it out with the help of AntiqueSledMan. His said his catalog from '81 lists a Hawken cap lock in .50 caliber with a 1 inch x 28 barrel and a 1:66 twist. I just measured the barrel on my Hawken and it's 28 x 1 inch and to my surprise it has a 1:66 twist, fooled me. That would date it from the early 80's. Guess it's a little rarer than most and with the early twist I'll treat it with a little more respect. It's been a good round ball shooter so far. Thanks all for the help, it's been a fun rabbit hole to go down. ;)

[indian joe]

SledMan, thanks a whole lot for the information, it confirms some of the stuff I found elsewhere. Seems the CVA Hawken was introduced in 1981 both from what your documentation says and from other sources. Starting around 1987 the date or date code, proof marks and rifle type like Hawken or Frontier were added to the information on the barrel. I'm going to guess that my rifle was manufactured in the early 80's before 1987 when all the rest of the stuff was added. Need to check the rate of twist on my rifle, always thought it was a 1:48 but your info shows that it might be a 1:66, it looks like my barrel is 1 inch across the flats but need to mic it. Talk about going down a rabbit hole

heres a few barrel markings to add some more confusion

Connecticut Valley Arms Spain (no model designation) 00xxx serial 15/16" x 28"
Black Powder Only 50 cal

Same again 54 cal (marked) Hawken 87 xxxxxx serial 15/16" x 28"

Dikar Spain 50 cal (Marked) Missouri 87 xxxxxx serial 15/16" x 28"
Blackpowder only

Dikar Spain 45 cal (Marked ) Kentucky 87 xxxxxx serial 7/8" x 32"
Blackpowder only

All above have been kit guns - the Dikar branded ones came in CVA boxes

Had a Pennsylvania rifle once, a 50 cal cap gun that I converted to flint it was a 7/8" x 42 " barrel an assembled rifle NOT a kit

All of these have been 1:66 twist .

I am of the strong belief that what we saw in Australia was production line seconds - bought/ brought in cheaply by one particular importer - every kit had something wrong or bits missing - my Pensylvania rifle and two 54 hawken barrels had lumps in the rifling where the drill for the end cap / under rib had almost perforated the rifling - the 50 missouri had a burred up muzzle where the tool they used for the crowning went awry - first Kentucky kit was missing the dovetail pieces and pins to pin the forend to the barrel (I didnt know any different till later and it shot fine without)

[indian joe]

Hawken's were famous for their 1-48 twist, that's why most modern copies are the same. Not sure why CVAs weren't that way or at least at first. I think later on they did along with a few other twists.

At the risk of raising everyones hackles I will say ------Hawken got it wrong and made it work - whoever set up CVA at the start knew their business with round ball better than the Hawkens (or anybody else for that matter)

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hey Joe,

I think all CVA kits had something wrong with them.
Anyone who could build one of these and make it look nice was a true craftsman.

AntiqueSledMan.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Your kit experience would be about what most found , missing pieces and kentucky rifle 2 piece stock with a gap that would take 2 of those brass pieces to fill so holes would line up .

[mooman76]

I've never had an issue with the kits. I haven't done allot of them but have done at least 4 that I remember.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I have done 3 and had fitment issues with the stock on the kentucky kit , and when I called the lady offered to send out another spacer as she knew exactly what I was talking about , rest of that kit was fine , frizzen sparks great . Pistol kit I had to make my own pin no big deal as pinning stock is on my shelf .

But I built a TC kit rifle and they had inlet the trigger off by 3/8 or more , and when I contacted them it was a form reply thanking me for buying , no mention of apology or checking to see that machine was cutting it right .

I prefer kits from scratch or minimal work or inletting , though I have several I have not got back to working on .

Glad to hear you have the date down and you will enjoy shooting it .

[Eddie2002]

Seems most of the kits can be a challenge. My first kit build was a Hawken from Cabella's and the inletting on the patch box was really poor. Had to work the brass along the edge of the patch box with a hammer to fill in the extra space. The wood was so proud around the butt stock plate I ended up running an 80 grit belt in the sander just to get close enough for hand planes and files, it must of been a good 1/4 inch proud and took a lot of grinding to get it even close.
The CVA Hawken I started the thread about had the trigger assembly inletting so deep the set trigger wouldn't work as well as a butt ugly factory finish and rough sand casted brass. I'll guess it was never fired until I got it. Not complaining, sometimes an older factory rifle is a better deal and a lot more fun to overhaul than building a kit.

[indian joe]

Hey Joe,

I think all CVA kits had something wrong with them.
Anyone who could build one of these and make it look nice was a true craftsman.

AntiqueSledMan.

I'm stalled halfway through a kentucky kit build now --- alls left of the kit is the barrel tho - had a nice curly maple stock , + Davis single set trigger + L & R Flintlock - not sticking strictly to style just a nice little shooter with quality parts

[mooman76]

The Mountain rifles were notorious for being inlet too deep. Easy fix was to shim out the trigger. The one I had if you set the butt stock down the least little bit too hard, the hammer would fall. I know you shouldn't be setting it down with the hammer back but what else would make it happen. Shimming the trigger assy did the trick. I wonder if the poor stock fit has something to do with the wood drying. I bought a Kentucky kit a few years back. It was purchased in 1974 and never put together. It had a crack in the wood behind where the lock would go. Just a small crack easily fixed but it looked like it was due to wood drying.

[indian joe]

Another little difference I noticed - my 28 inchCVA barrels - the model designation (Hawken , Missouri ) looked like an afterthought stamping, maybe done later in the processing of the kit - Hawken and Missouri barrels were an interchange - Frontier model had same barrel dimensions but stock was different - shorter forend, longer under rib, dovetails different spacing. Locks were different too although I have messed with mine enough I forget which had what - Missouri had Big lockplate Kentucky and Mountain rifle had small lockplate - hammers were different but would interchange - other internals were same/similar . Some early Kentucky kits had a mongrel lock with no bridle to support it - both mine came with bridle lock, fly in tumbler and adjusting screw but were single triggers.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hey Joe,

I had a Frontier Rifle back in 1980, that thing shot like a million dollars (wish I still had it).
Since then I picked up a couple Frontier Carbines, actually one is marked Frontier Rifle.
Both have 24" barrels with 1:48 twist, my old Frontier had 1:66 twist 28" barrel.
I won many matches shooting cast balls.
These don't shoot like my old one did.

AntiqueSledMan.

[mooman76]

Hey Joe,

I had a Frontier Rifle back in 1980, that thing shot like a million dollars (wish I still had it).
Since then I picked up a couple Frontier Carbines, actually one is marked Frontier Rifle.
Both have 24" barrels with 1:48 twist, my old Frontier had 1:66 twist 28" barrel.
I won many matches shooting cast balls.
These don't shoot like my old one did.

AntiqueSledMan.

Me too exactly. Mine shot both RBs and conicals real well. In fact I shot it at the monthly meet and everyone laughed at it's size until they saw I took two events with it. Wish I still had it, it's one of those that got away.

[mooman76]

Another little difference I noticed - my 28 inchCVA barrels - the model designation (Hawken , Missouri ) looked like an afterthought stamping, maybe done later in the processing of the kit - Hawken and Missouri barrels were an interchange - Frontier model had same barrel dimensions but stock was different - shorter forend, longer under rib, dovetails different spacing. Locks were different too although I have messed with mine enough I forget which had what - Missouri had Big lockplate Kentucky and Mountain rifle had small lockplate - hammers were different but would interchange - other internals were same/similar . Some early Kentucky kits had a mongrel lock with no bridle to support it - both mine came with bridle lock, fly in tumbler and adjusting screw but were single triggers.

It seemed there for awhile, just before CVA quite selling sidelocks that it would put out a new (named) ML almost as much as people change their underware. Usually they would have one or two tiny little changes to it's style.

[pietro]

At the risk of raising everyones hackles I will say ------Hawken got it wrong and made it work - whoever set up CVA at the start knew their business with round ball better than the Hawkens (or anybody else for that matter)


T/C didn't get their Hawken wrong with the compromise 1:48" twist wrong (they also made some 32" bbl'd Hawken's with a 1:66" twist), they were simply trying to make an all-around rifle that would shoot either PRB's or conicals accurate enough for hunting.

I guess being all things to all people worked, because a 1"48" twist has become the standard twist rate for most frontstuffer manufacturers.

My .50 CVA Mountain Rifle has a 1:66" twist - for which I'm glad, as I've been wanting to try a PRB long gun.

( I have long had a .45 T/C Seneca for using conicals)

[hylander]

True, T/C did want a one gun for all, which worked for marketing, but not so well in the real world
if a person wants real accuracy.
They made a twist rate and groove depth that does neither RB or conicals great, just well enough to get by.
Twist to slow for conicals and groove depth to shallow for RB.
T/C cut their grooves only .004 deep, fine for conicals but way to shallow for RB.
For a 50 Cal: Best accuracy for conicals need a twist closer to 1:32
Round ball 1:60 or slower with grooves .010 or deeper.
Just my personal experience, YMMV.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Just my personal experience TC rifles I have owned and shot did very well with minies maxis and roundball , still have 1 TC have gave 1 to son and 1 to my son in law , father has had same experiences , and in the english sporting rifle/ hawken I bought as it is truly a mix of both twist is slow and it still shoots maxis and such along with round ball well .

Depth of rifling would to be more important on a slug then a ball as patch is what is engaging rifling , YMMV mine is what has worked for me with my loads , conventional wisdom or what works . But this is keyboard shooting about a subject and I am going out shooting the black powder rifles both slow twist and fast and maybe a revolver or 2 so have a good day and buy and use whatever you wish and what you like as I will myself .

[Edward]

Just my personal experience TC rifles I have owned and shot did very well with minies maxis and roundball , still have 1 TC have gave 1 to son and 1 to my son in law , father has had same experiences , and in the english sporting rifle/ hawken I bought as it is truly a mix of both twist is slow and it still shoots maxis and such along with round ball well .

Depth of rifling would to be more important on a slug then a ball as patch is what is engaging rifling , YMMV mine is what has worked for me with my loads , conventional wisdom or what works . But this is keyboard shooting about a subject and I am going out shooting the black powder rifles both slow twist and fast and maybe a revolver or 2 so have a good day and buy and use whatever you wish and what you like as I will myself .

My experience as well ,when yer right yer right/Ed:bigsmyl2:

[indian joe]

My experience as well ,when yer right yer right/Ed:bigsmyl2:

The point I was trying to make above was
The Hawkens and other later makers managed to "make it work" by compensating for the excessively fast twist (1:48 for roundball is far from ideal) so they made a compensating error of super deep rifling --- from which arose the fairy story that roundball needed deep rifling and the further fairy story that the deep rifling was needed to accomodate the fouling ------ circling back to my other comment that whoever organised CVA at the beginning absolutely nailed it with the rifling geometry (for round ball) their groove depth is less than most other slow twist barrels I have seen - these things are just so easy to load for - a decent CVA barrel will shoot accurate from pipsqueak loads right up to overload - only caveat is the patches need to hold up.

At present I am shooting a nice light little 45cal flinter I built with a 40"x 13/16" shallow groove, cheap, Belgian barrel. Its a 1:48 twist and we do fine so long as I keep the lid on the powder charge :bigsmyl2: it dose a rapid transit from bullseyes (55 grain FFFg) to absolutely blown it (70 grains FFFg) :dung_hits_fan:

So yeah the compromise twist will shoot ok they just a little bit more pernickity is all .

[Eddie2002]

Indian Joe, I have the same thing with a CVA Frontier in .50 caliber. It's a later model made in '88 with the 24 inch 1:48 barrel instead of the earlier model with the 28 inch 1:66 barrel. Anything above 55 grains of 3F and the shot pattern opens way up. Don't know how many hours I spent trying to get the load right till out of frustration I dropped it under 50 grains which really has helped. Right now my problem is too many front stuffers and not enough range time. Need to pack a lunch, a comfy chair and make a day at the range.

[Tripplebeards]

My traditions pioneer I just picked up that was never fired is stamped the same. I would assume the muzzle loader manufacturers bought their barrels from the same manufacturer in Spain?

[pietro]

.

AFAIK, Bergara is the maker of Spanish marked muzzleloader barrels, so most likely many imported muzzleloaders (not guns from Italy, however) use them - and they all seem to be pretty accurate.