Shot My First Cast Bullets--Leading!!!

[G. Freeman]

Hello Guys,
I have finally shot 50 rounds of my first batch of cast bullets using LEE 255 gr mold for 45 colt. The bullets mic'd .452-.4525". A very small few were in the .451" range. Bullets were unsized. All of these bullets are out of round. Cylinder throats measure ~.4525 to .453". None of the case bullets push though the throats by finger pressure.

I have shot a lot of commercial cast bullets sized .452" in this revolver with no leading issue.

Alloy: coww
lube: lsstuff's xlox (1 coat applied very lightly), tumble lubed
load: 8.0 gr Unique
gun: S&W M-25

My first batch showed decent accuracy, but the barrel leading was significant--through entire length of bore with strips of lead embedded in the grooves.

Could you enlighten me on what may be going wrong?
1. not enough lube? since I lubed lightly?
2. out of round bullets causing blow by?
3. need a larger diameter bullet? .453 to .454"?

I would appreciate your input. Thanks in advance. :sad:

[BJK]

Here's my experience with bullets cast with LEE "no sizing needed" molds. Or that's what I assume the claim was for the mold, I was only told that they didn't require sizing and what little I knew back then told me that was just wrong. A friend cast a hundred or so for me in 9mm. So I lubed with Alox and loaded them up using my known load for that bullet weight. They were horrible. I didn't fire enough of them to have huge leading problems, the accuracy was enough to tell me to stop. I'm just a beginner in bullet casting so I can't help you directly, but I can state that I'll never put another unsized bullet through any firearm of mine. I'm also moving into powder coating to get the benefits that accrue from that.

Others with far more knowledge than I have will be by to help you I would imagine.

[guy_with_boolits]

I am a beginner and also had massive leading, I've learned many things, that could have to do with it:

MANY things could be crushing your boolit so its size when fired is smaller than it needs to be to prevent leading from gas erosion, such as:

-the case not being expanded enough (not flaring, EXPANSION)
-the lead could be too soft, allowing it to be crushed easier
-certain dies can crush it, like a LEE factory crimp die

Pull a boolit you've loaded from a loaded round and measure it so see how its doing. Measure the driving bands separately. The bottom one is most likely to be crushed since it would be doing the job of expanding the case.

[ryanmattes]

I'm fairly new to this too, but everything I've learned says .001-.002 larger than the bore diameter. That's a likely suspect for the leading.

I'd also try using a wax lube, the bullet design usually has the right size lube groove for the slug. If that works, then try alternative lubes.

I also load jacketed with 8gr of Unique, but found with cast 255gr my revolver likes more like 6.5gr. Ladder it down and see if that helps.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[Bazoo]

Not enough lube, I use enough you can see it when dry.

Maybe a constriction at the threads. Have you slugged the bore and felt for a constriction? If the commercial you shot was soft, then it obturated to not lead. Could be the throats are undersize to the bore, and soft bullets obturated to mask that as well. COWWs won't obturate with that load, they are hard enough for gc'd rifle bullets at 30k psi.

[tomme boy]

The alox was the problem.

[mehavey]

The alox was the problem.Properly applied/dried, "the alox" is never "the problem"

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6682694&postcount=6

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6687784&postcount=13

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6689987&postcount=21

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6644641&postcount=5

A. Can the OP tell us more about how the ALOX was applied -- and especially how/how long dried....
B. I do suspect (also) suspect undersizingin the mix

[Targa]

Maybe try fattening those bullets up to .453 by water quenching, dropping the temp your casting at or adding some antimony and tin...foundry type alloy from Rotometals is a good quick way to do that. Kind of a fine balance though, to hard of bullet at lower velocities could effect the barrel leading as well......the whole obturation thing like Bazoo mentioned.

[Castaway]

If you’re using a six cavity, it’s easy to not get the mould closed completely, causing out-of-round bullets. Check to see if any lead splatter is on the inside face of mould or in alignment pin/hole. Also, because the end cavity is so far away from the fulcrum, it’s also easy to not close the mould completely. Take time occasionally to close the empty mould with sprue plate open. If you see light, tweek your technique until no light shows through.
I’m also generous about the amount of Lee Liquid Alox I apply, going not for the golden sheen, but brown. I put mine in a plastic tub, apply alox and shake, let sit there a few hours and come back to shake again. Shake next morning and until dry and store for later use.
If after checking your technique and are convinced the mould’s out of round, contact Lee. It doesn’t happen that often, but it can

[USSR]

G. Freeman,

Since you are using a S&W Model 25, which are well known for having oversized cylinder throats, have you measured your cylinder throats? With one of my Model 25's, I have to use .455" cast bullets in it. This should be your first step in looking for the cause of your leading.

Don

[onelight]

You mention you have shot commercial cast that did not lead , have you measured those bullets to see what diameter they are ?
When you mentioned you tried the bullets in your cylinder throats you said "case bullets" not sure what you did , will a bullet out of a case drop through the cylinder throat ?
Alox will work if everything else is ok , as cast (no sizing ) will work if fit and everything else is ok . If you are using a carbide FCD it may size your bullet , remove all the case bell in the seating die if you feel the carbide ring bump over the bullet as the cartridge enters and exits the FCD that is a clue But if commercial cast worked with the same dies probably not the problem .My 45 acp FCD are tighter and are more likley post size . My 45 colt FCD dies don't post size any with .452 bullets.
You can slug your cylinder throats and barrel with pure lead , a round ball is what I use but some use pure lead sinkers . Or use pin gauges if you have them . If you have thread choke you will feel it when slugging the bore and the slug hits the portion with the choke the slug will measure the tightest place in the bore if driven all the way through.
In my experience it is usually a combination of things that cause leading . The previous posts show everyone's personal experience with eliminating it in a particular gun and load .
If you have shot commercial cast that did not lead you have bullets to compare to the ones that did lead to to get some ideas on what might work .

[Dusty Bannister]

One of the reasons it is desirable to size the cast bullets is that it will clearly show any out of round and undersized condition. The sizer either leaves the driving bands clearly sized by the die, or there is no indication of contact to the driving bands and that shows a gas leak will occur. Hot gasses passing around the bullet cut the bullet and deposit leading in the barrel ahead of the bullet.

The tumble lubes will prevent bullet leading, IF the bullet completely fills the bore. It will not prevent leading if the bullet is undersized at all. One light application is usually not sufficient, two is better, and completely dry before loading.

From the sound of your measurements, if done with a micrometer, your castings are undersized and you either need to lap the mold larger, or perhaps consider powder coating to enlarge the bullet diameter. This will also require sizing the bullet with a push through size die. With powder coating you will not need to worry about Lee Liquid Alox (LLA). A softer alloy is not going to be harmful, and might be better. The 8 Grains of Unique is a favorite load of some shooters of 45 Colt with 250 grain cast bullets.

We have to assume that the bullets are all well filled out and just on the verge of frosting so they are at full diameter. Shinny bullets with rounded band edges will always cast a bit undersized and that could also be part of your problem. What is the appearance of your cast bullets in detail please?

[Wayne Smith]

From what you posted - 1) out of round boolits, 2)slightly smaller than bore, 3)will not push through cylinder - but out of round so part of them will and part won't. If they are cast hard and not obdurating this is your problem - the boolit is out of round enough for gas cutting through where it's not contacting - thus leading. If they are soft they should bump up and fill the throat and bore.

In short your boolits are too small in one dimension and too hard to obdurate - thus leading.

[Larry Gibson]

Add 2% tin to the COWW.

Cast with the alloy at 710 - 725 degrees.

If a 6 cavity mould before pouring ensure the blocks are closed and do not hold the sprue plate handle, hold only the mould block handles.

Alox? What alox? If LLA then read the instructions, use a Lee push through sizer of .452 or .453 and lube again as per lee's instructions. Let the lube dry thoroughly between coats and before loading..

[dverna]

The good news is you know .452" commercial bullets do not lead. They will be harder than what you are casting with coww.

First thing I would do is sort bullets and cull any that are under .452 in any direction. Easy to do if you size...any that size with some force are going to be OK...those that do not need some force...discard. Push through sizers are cheap. Or you can get by by measuring 50 with a micrometer for the test. Load the .452+" bullets up and see if they lead. If they lead, your alloy may be too soft and bullets are sizing down when seated. Easy to check...pull a few and measure them after loading. Do the same measurement after pulling commercial bullets. If the cast bullets are sizing down, and the commercial bullets are not, your alloy is too soft.

If many of your bullets are undersize as cast, you can "beagle" your mold...do a search. Out of round is not a problem unless it causes one side of the bullet to be less than groove dia. You MUST be at groove or slightly over at every point in the bullet. Out of round may affect accuracy slightly but not leading.

BTW, commercial bullets are almost always produced with 92-2-6 (lead, tin, antimony) alloy. It is easily available (what I buy for casting) but your alloy can be doctored to replicate it.

[PositiveCaster]

Leading is caused by gas blowby around the bullet, so the bullet’s size as it goes through the barrel is important. Bullets which are too hard will lead more readily than soft bullets, especially with the OP’s low pressure load (likely around 750 fps) because they will not upset to fill the bore. Harder bullets will just make matters worse. All this has been demonstrated for decades by CBA members, by Dave Scoville (former editor of Handloader magazine) and by Veral Smith of LBT among many others. Nothing new here, yet so many choose to adhere to obsolete “theories” about cast bullet leading.

Many years ago (40+) I was loading for a NMBH in .45 LC using unsized Lee 255FN bullets cast of coww lubed with liquid alox. I was using a “ladder” technique starting at 8.0 grains of Unique and ending at 9.5 grains in 1/2 grain increments. I was firing into snow to capture the bullets. What did I find? Bullets fired with 8.0 and 8.5 grains had severe gas cutting on their bases, and there was plenty of lead in the bore. The 9.0 load had much less gas cutting, and the 9.5 load had no gas cutting at all - under pressure it had obturated to fit the bore perfectly. I learned a lot about cast bullets that day.

We know that the OP’s cylinder and bore dimensions are okay because commercial bullets don’t lead. Bottom line, it’s most likely that the OP’s only problem is using too hard an alloy, or too light of a load for that particular alloy.


.

[dverna]

We know that the OP’s cylinder and bore dimensions are okay because commercial bullets don’t lead. Bottom line, it’s most likely that the OP’s only problem is using too hard an alloy, or too light of a load for that particular alloy.


.

I thought commercial alloys were in the 15 BNH range and COWW at 10-12 BHN.

[matrixcs]

In my experience with leading out of round with min width less than bore dia will guarantee leading. I now size all blullets if out of round and most will round up. If your cast is too hard to round up then powdercoat to bring the size up and size again...
fyi: I have lapped most of my molds to give me casts large enough to size down to my preferred diameter.

[Larry Gibson]

8 gr of Unique under a 255 cast in the 45 Colt is ging to push 850 fps +/- ....not a "low pressure load (likely around 750 fps)".

Commercial bullets will be "harder" than the COWWs the OP is using. The Commercial bullets aren't leading with the same load because the lube is working.

The groove diameter on a S%W M25 45 Colt is going to be .451 +/-. Pushing a .451 - .4525 cast bullet into a .451 barrel will cause the bullet to swage down not "upset to fill the bore". Also if the cast bullet is lubed the bullet will swage down to less than .451 because it is riding on a layer of lube. The "obsolete Theory" here is the belief that a cast bullet the same as or larger than groove diameter will "upset to fill the bore". It will not, it will be swaged down. Some cast bullets can/will obturate (upset to fill the) the throat of the cylinder. If the throats are considerably larger than the groove diameter of the barrel then the swaging up in the cylinder throats and then swaging back down again in the barrel does nothing for the balance of the cast bullet and can very easily be more detrimental to accuracy.

The OPs leading problem are no doubt is partially caused by the COWWs used which probably have 2 + % antimony and little or no tin. Adding the 2% tin will balance the tin with the antimony creating the sub-metal SbSn which will mix into solution in the lead and give a better ternary ally. It will be a bit harder also but no where near as hard as most commercial cast bullets.

The major issue with leading is not always gas blow by but most often an inefficient lube that is not doing it's job or an insufficient amount of lube. The OP has not responded yet as to what "alox" he is using.

[mehavey]

My Tier-II New Vaquero 45 Colt loads are:
https://i.postimg.cc/QxbQ0gn6/New-Vaquero-RBCS-Tite-Grp-Loads.jpg
Both shoot inch and a half
Both leave mirror-finish bore on just a dry patch

Lesson 1: You can shoot amazingly soft bullets w/ thin-film LEE ALOX at relatively high pressures
Lesson 2: If you insist on hard(er) alloys, up the pressure or they'll go skittering down the bore
Lesson 3: Lee ALOX -- applied thinly/surface treatment and dried -- is magic stuff

[Mk42gunner]

The simplest thing to do is add a second coat of alox. AND LET IT DRY THOUROUGHLY. I recently started tumble lubing with BLL, basically a thinned Lee Alox. Two coats works for me with .38 Special wadcutters.

The second thing to do is refine your casting technique to eliminate the out of round boolits.

Clip on wheel weights are a great base metal, but consistent they are not. I have shot many boolits cast of straight WW, but many that I respect recommend adding 2% tin to help with fillout. My particular batch doesn't seem to need it.

Robert

[G. Freeman]

Thanks so much to all of your input. With all your advice I realize there are many things I would need to look at.

First of all, I lubed the bullets with a small amount of lsstuff's xlox. (Initially, 1 Tbs of lube to cover ~200 pcs of bullets). I originally put a very small amount because I thought that was the proper way. However, it may have been too little.

As you can see in the pic on the left, the bullets were still white but I could feel the wax on my fingers when handling the bullets.

I retumbled 50 bullets last night with another 1 Tbs, and made sure the lube grooves were filled. You could see the bullets are now brownish in color. I think I overapplied the xlox though. But I would like to see what effect this would have on the bore.

https://i.postimg.cc/TP8p1B8r/20210217-104708.jpg (https://postimg.cc/SnrytTxs)

Definitely I think a big culprit is the lack of lubrication and a second one could be the gas blowby.

I have been shooting mostly commercial cast bullets sized .452" and they have worked very well with minimal leading. Having shot close to 3 decades using commercial cast bullets, I have never seen this severity of leading before.

The good news is the bore cleaned up fairly easily with a generously soaked bore bush (with chore boy wrapped around) using my OTIS clp.

The bullets from this Lee mold are all out of round. But I have a couple of RCBS dies coming (one in .452 another in .454) that will be able to address the roundness and proper diameter issue in the weeks to come.

My mold order from Grafs has approached 3 wks and they have not shipped yet, but that is a different topic altogether.

Also am in the process for purchasing some bullet sizers (lee vs Noe). Have tried to contact Noe via email 2x and phone once (but no sucess). That is another story as well. Even if I placed an order with him, it may take several weeks.

Also just placed some powder coat from Smoke.

I didn't think I would end up spending this much money to cast decent (not perfect) bullets. But I'm already here and this is something I always wanted to try.

The learning curve has been extremely steep.

Thanks to all your information. I really appreciate you all! :-P

[Castaway]

Looking at your second set of lubed bullets, I think you’re on the right track. That’s the “Brown” color I mentioned previously. Again, before I trashed the mould because of out-of-round bullets, I’d do another session, taking care to close the mould block completely before filling. keep the pressure on the two handles and not on the sprue. If the mould still drops lop sided bullets, PM me and I’ll pay the shipping to a home in sunny Florida

[guy_with_boolits]

Thanks so much to all of your input. With all your advice I realize there are many things I would need to look at.

First of all, I lubed the bullets with a small amount of lsstuff's xlox. (Initially, 1 Tbs of lube to cover ~200 pcs of bullets). I originally put a very small amount because I thought that was the proper way. However, it may have been too little.

As you can see in the pic on the left, the bullets were still white but I could feel the wax on my fingers when handling the bullets.

I retumbled 50 bullets last night with another 1 Tbs, and made sure the lube grooves were filled. You could see the bullets are now brownish in color. I think I overapplied the xlox though. But I would like to see what effect this would have on the bore.

Definitely I think a big culprit is the lack of lubrication and a second one could be the gas blowby.

I have been shooting mostly commercial cast bullets sized .452" and they have worked very well with minimal leading. Having shot close to 3 decades using commercial cast bullets, I have never seen this severity of leading before.

The good news is the bore cleaned up fairly easily with a generously soaked bore bush (with chore boy wrapped around) using my OTIS clp.

The bullets from this Lee mold are all out of round. But I have a couple of RCBS dies coming (one in .452 another in .454) that will be able to address the roundness and proper diameter issue in the weeks to come.

My mold order from Grafs has approached 3 wks and they have not shipped yet, but that is a different topic altogether.

Also am in the process for purchasing some bullet sizers (lee vs Noe). Have tried to contact Noe via email 2x and phone once (but no sucess). That is another story as well. Even if I placed an order with him, it may take several weeks.

Also just placed some powder coat from Smoke.

I didn't think I would end up spending this much money to cast decent (not perfect) bullets. But I'm already here and this is something I always wanted to try.

The learning curve has been extremely steep.

Thanks to all your information. I really appreciate you all! :-P

I just ordered stuff from NOE and they shipped very promptly. If you need to talk to them..that might be another story. But cant you just pick what you want from the store and buy it if its in stock?

I also noticed a huge discrepancy about how much tumble lube to use. Some people say barely visible, the lee instructions/video shows pouring a ton on. I have not completed my experiments yet to determine what actually works, but its very much alchemy if you go by online reports and suggestions. I think whats happening is, boolit size dominates as far as reducing leading, and the alox probably only makes a small difference. ALOT of people are going through the process you just went through, discovering how critical boolit size is and how easily it can be impacted by the loading process or sizers that are slightly undersize, or both, combined with groove diameter, etc..etc..

[guy_with_boolits]

you might want to check out the sticky http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?116741-If-you-think-so-try-this if you havent yet...a bit eye opening

[mehavey]

The one's on the Left are definitely a bit "thin" (wow ;))

https://i.postimg.cc/TP8p1B8r/20210217-104708.jpg

That's taking "thin" to new heights. :bigsmyl2:
(I advocate for the Goldilocks methodology between the two here)


postscript: Unlike traditional groove-based lubes which squeeze out under groove
compression & precede the bullet as a near vapor, ALOX is foremost a surface lubricant.
(Lube in the grooves never really comes into play.)

[waksupi]

Softer alloy.

[fcvan]

2 things I would try are 1) powder coating, and 2) plain base gas checks, I have done both. Your xlox could be done with some mineral spirits for 2 thin coats which I have done to 2000 fps in a 300 BO. Plain base gas check for me became somewhat obsolete for me when I started powder coating. I have shot plain based non lube groove PCd .223/5.56 (NOE 225-62 RN) to 2450 fps without leading.

Many great tips provided above, experimentation and discovery is part of the hobby. I have cast and loaded since 1975, but learned so much more about this craft since joining Cast Boolits. Don't get me wrong, I learned along the way through trial and error, more success than failure, back in the days before the internet. This place allows more people to share their collective experience, most friendly and helpful folks I have ever made acquaintance with are right here.

[USSR]

G. Freeman,

Did you measure your Model 25's cylinder throats?

Don

[fredj338]

It doesn't take many undersized bullets to get leading. Never had great results with Alox, but bullet fit is important. Even 0.001" too small will give gas blow by & leading. Out of round is one reason I size everything. That & uniform size seems to give better accuracy than mixed sizes, neck tension is likely the reason there.

[Gohon]

To me any leading is unacceptable no matter how small. For several years I used Lee Liquid Alox mixed 50/50 with Johnsons paste wax in the yellow can. I always had zero leading in all guns including the 45 Colt. However I always sized the 45 casts at .454 and that was the real key to prevent leading. Now days I powder coat everything and have discovered I can size at .452 and still get no leading. Proper size over groove diameter is the real key no matter what lube is used. .002-.003 over groove diameter is a good ballpark range.

[mehavey]

Did the OP ever indicate what revolver he's using ?
(if it's a Ruger and the cylinders haven't been opened up to 0.4525"-ish,
all the "plus .001"- .002" over groove diameter advice will be for naught)

[gwpercle]

Slug your bore & throats and size your boolits accordingly.
Break down and buy a lube/sizer and used a good lube ... Lithium - Beeswax
50+ years doing it ... no leading . Lyman 450 lube sizer was worth every penny as is H & I Dies of the correct diameter .
When you get lead in the bore ... you're not doing it right .
Gary

[USSR]

Did the OP ever indicate what revolver he's using ?
(if it's a Ruger and the cylinders haven't been opened up to 0.4525"-ish,
all the "plus .001"- .002" over groove diameter advice will be for naught)

He said it's a S&W Model 25. That's why I asked him to check the cylinder throats, as the Model 25's are notorious for extremely large throats in the neighborhood of .456".

Don

[mehavey]

Funny thing about cylinder throats.

I had to open up both my New Vaquero & 3-screw Blackhawk to 0.4525" before they'd shoot well,
while my (Uberti) S&W#3 has absolutely cavernous cylinder throats...yet shoots 45 Colt & the
shorter Schofield (https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/looking-for-a-schofield-and-need-advice.855815/#post-11224840) cartridge superbly well.

https://s33.postimg.cc/3s3yzns9r/Smith_3_45_Colt_Schofield_Case_sm.jpg

[G. Freeman]

The OP has not responded yet as to what "alox" he is using.

lube: lsstuff's xlox


That's why I asked him to check the cylinder throats,

Cylinder throats measure ~.4525 to .453".

Thanks.

[guy_with_boolits]

Funny thing about cylinder throats.

I had to open up both my New Vaquero & 3-screw Blackhawk to 0.4525" before they'd shoot well,
while my (Uberti) S&W#3 has absolutely cavernous cylinder throats...yet shoots 45 Colt & the
shorter Schofield (https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/looking-for-a-schofield-and-need-advice.855815/#post-11224840) cartridge superbly well.

https://s33.postimg.cc/3s3yzns9r/Smith_3_45_Colt_Schofield_Case_sm.jpg

is that a 4" group at 25 yrds, 5 shots?

I'm trying to figure out what I should "shoot" for, so to speak

[mehavey]

The X-ring on the right is 1.6"

and we're shooting (just for fun) a short 45 Schofield cartridge (w/ near dead soft 260gr Keith SWC)
.. . in a full 45-Colt chambered top-break Smith & Wesson #3 (https://www.ubertireplicas.com/product/new-model-3-frontier/) of an 1870-design vintage.

If you can't do what it does on the right, you're still under your full potential :kidding: :bigsmyl2:

[greenjoytj]

From my experience casting with a Lyman 452664 it’s long 4 cavity mold blocks make out of round bullets as normal. I assume the mold stretches lengthwise do to the 725* lead heating the mold.

All my Boolets get sized to .452” so the oval Boolets are swagged round. I can see the out of round, it shows up as extra lead smeared up the side of the Boolet on the mold part line.

90* across the part line I don’t see excess lead being smeared upwards. I look on the Boolet drive bands for the surface texture change caused by passage through the sizing die. If I find a Boolet that shows the sizing die did not make contact all the way around it’s culled to the re-melt can.

I have 2 LEE commercial 6 cavity molds that I haven’t had a chance to try yet. I suspect they will stretch with heating and drop out of round Boolets.

[Kavein]

Maybe a dumb question but did you get zinc in your alloy. I have a mold identical to yours and it has never cast a bullet that looks like yours . I always get smooth and perfectly filled bullets with that mold no matter what alloy I use.

[hornetguy]

Have you slugged your bore? If your bore is slightly large, say .453-.454, and your chamber throats are .452-ish, that could be the issue. Your chambers are sizing the bullets down below the bore diameter. I had a Ruger Blackhawk like that, and had to send it back to Ruger for them to fix the chamber throats. It made a huge difference in the leading, and also improved accuracy.
Just another thing to check... pretty much the same thing Wayne Smith mentioned in post#13