06 ap

[bigdog454]

During WW-II, there were a lot of 06 armor piercing ammo used. Does anyone know just how much ( in inches) these bullets would pierce, and was that hardened armor or just steel?
BD

[Larry Gibson]

Actually made for use against "light armored" vehicles and aircraft. I have found it to penetrate 1/4 - 1/2" soft/mild steel with penetration through 5/8" thick being "iffy" at 100 yards.

[Outpost75]

Actually made for use against "light armored" vehicles and aircraft. I have found it to penetrate 1/4 - 1/2" soft/mild steel with penetration through 5/8" thick being "iffy" at 100 yards.

TM9-1305-200 states "At normal impact at 100 yards against 7/8-inch homogenous armor plate, minimum penetration is 0.35 inch."

[Bazoo]

What tactical value does it have over regular ball ammo? Would it do any different against a civilian car/truck? What about an uparmored Humvee?

Airplanes succumb pretty easy to regular ammo don't they?

I've seen it for sell for 2 dollars each and folks get all excited bout it, but I never understood what value it had other than the novelty.

[M-Tecs]

TM9-1305-200 states "At normal impact at 100 yards against 7/8-inch homogenous armor plate, minimum penetration is 0.35 inch."

Thanks. I have only shot one round of 06 AP against steel. That was against the thin center portion of a piece of railroad track. It did go through.

[Larry Gibson]

TM9-1305-200 states "At normal impact at 100 yards against 7/8-inch homogenous armor plate, minimum penetration is 0.35 inch."

Yeah, says that in my TM also....never could understand how penetrating .35" in a 7/8 armor plate was of much value. Thus I tested for complete penetration through the steel with enough "oomph" left to penetrated 6" of compressed newsprint.

As to;

"What tactical value does it have over regular ball ammo?"

It will penetrated "light armored" vehicles better (back in the day it was made/used). For the infantryman using the AP it turns what can be "cover" an enemy is behind into "concealment".....ergo bad juju for the enemy.....

"Would it do any different against a civilian car/truck?"

Yes, it does as it penetrates more than M2 ball. Will also do considerably more damage to an engine.

"What about an uparmored Humvee?"

At close range the engine could be seriously damaged and those sliding side windows are vulnerable. I doubt it would penetrate the side armor or gunners chicken plate. Remains to be tested though.

"Airplanes succumb pretty easy to regular ammo don't they"?

Some airplanes it was intended for (fighters and bombers) use against had some light armor around the fuel tanks and cockpits. The Browning 50 cal MGs soon replaced all the 30 cals in aircraft pretty early in WWII making that a moot point. The 50 cals used API and tracers along with ball.

[Adam Helmer]

In the 1970s and 1980s, our gun club got in many cases of DEN '43 and SL '43 AP ammo through the DCM. Our rifle team won many matches with that black tipped ammo-it shot great!

We detail cleaned our M1s after shooting that corrosive ammo.

Adam

[405grain]

I was in the Navy, but remember a couple of occasions where my group would shoot on Marine Corp ranges. The only time I remember shooting armor piercing ammo was on a training shoot with M1A's The Marine sergeant that was the range officer that day was giving us advise on how to use AP ammo. Probably irrelevant to a sailor, but the one thing that stuck in my head was: "If you get a broadside shot at a truck or jeep, aim for the top of the front tire. A hit there will simultaneously give the vehicle a flat tire and break the engine block."

[Bazoo]

Thanks for the detailed answer. I didn't know those things.

[10-x]

Late in WWII Patton’s 3rd Army seemed to “ acquire” more than their share of AP rounds as the infantry found it would go through just about any tree( large) , most timbers in bunkers and of course doors and houses. Story was Gen. Patton “ arranged” it .

[Ateam]

I seem to remember an interesting tidbit about it penetrating better out past 100y as it had stabilized by that point.

Would love to have some if someone is sitting on an absolute mountain of it and feeling generous, PM me. Heard it was the cheapest stuff around in the 90's.

[Outpost75]

I was told by LTC Ellis Lea, USA, Ret., who served in the ETO during WW2 that a long burst of AP, (until you saw 4 tracers) would chew through 8 inches of solid masonry, breaching a large enough hole to drop a grenade into the basement. Alternately the squad leader would mark the desired aiming point with a tracer and three Riflemen with Garands would each fire a clip load at the spot, or the BAR man would do a mag dump.

[Outpost75]

I seem to remember an interesting tidbit about it penetrating better out past 100y as it had stabilized by that point.

Would love to have some if someone is sitting on an absolute mountain of it and feeling generous, PM me. Heard it was the cheapest stuff around in the 90's.


Nearly all of it remaining in gov't stores went south during the contra war, as well as did all the M72 match and Ball M2 at the FBI Academy back then, all of it being linked for the Browning MGs, although I am told that some of the M72 Match was delinked and repurposed for sniping.

[straphanger]

Read somewhere that most of the rifle caliber ammo issued in WW2 in the Pacific was AP. It was preferred because it would penetrate through the big palm logs the Japs used in their bunkers.

[elk hunter]

A friend told me when he was in Korea all their Garand ammo was AP.

Years ago I had a bunch of late issue, non-corrosive, in Garand clips. A friend told me about some guy that used it for testing armor plate and I sold it to him for the unheard of price of $1.00 per round.

[Alferd Packer]

when I was young and dum I tested AP 06 ammo.Many times the penetrator tips richochette bad to the area of the shooter. We were missed, but now not doing that anymore. Where the hit the shooting emplacements they shot all the way thru .

just my 2 cents.

[TNsailorman]

An old Marine told about another Marine on the Canal who was in a dual with a jap who had a light nambu and hiding behind a tree. After a few exchanges, the Marine slipped a clip of AP into this 03 Springfield and proceed to kill the jap by shooting thru the tree he was hiding behind. A true story that made it into an autobiography. I have shot through several trees just playing around with old WW II AP and it will penetrate fairly large trees. I read in a magazine article back in the 60's about a guy who shot a railroad rail at 100 yards with an AP round and the AP round richtoched came back and hit him in the stomach, fortunately it did not do all that much damage and he had a short stay in the hospital. I would think my my limited experience that it would do a number on an auto engine or go thru both sides of an automobile although I have never tried either one. james

[Larry Gibson]

^^^^^^^

That's why sometimes "cover" is only "concealment"......

It's also the main difference between 7.62 NATO and 5.56NATO....what is "cover" to 5.56 is most often just "concealment" to 7.62.......

[FLINTNFIRE]

I got a lot of the pull down tips when no one wanted them , shot the gongs at the range with my loads , gongs were old bull gears and they looked like porcupines after a session , still have some in a bag and a bunch loaded for the M1 Garand , bought some from Talon ammo back when they were selling the pulled down and then reloaded ones , stashed in a ammo can for use as needed .

I have shot against old concrete walls when younger and on a angle was preferred over straight on , after 8 or so rounds it would chew a hole through with soft points , this was at around 50 yards .

[gwpercle]

I cut into an AP bullet and discovered a hardened steel "dart" incased inside the black tip painted bullet . It was covered with a layer of lead , enough so the rifling could grip the bullet but not be damaged by the hardened steel projectile inside .
My guess is the lead and jacket were shed when it ( the hardened steel "dart") penetrated steel plate.
The ammo will shoot through a 6 inch diameter steel pipe filled with concrete and when the ammo shot clean through a 20" oak tree we figured something was up with this ammo... that's when I cut into a bullet and found the hardened steel dart ... a file wont leave a mark on it !
Pulled a few hundred bullets for the brass , traded some ammo to a police officer buddy who wanted them for busting automobile blocks in road block situations and kept a few loaded stripper clips for my collection . When using these ... make sure you have a thick earthen berm for a backstop .
Gary

[Brettitt41]

Here's a guy doing some AP testing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGsXye6Bqe8

[M-Tecs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQqwyVgZVXs&t=10s

[M-Tecs]

Full version


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzYH8ap1TDo

[Gtek]

He is shooting holes in Paper Patching paper!!!!

[rondog]

I cut into an AP bullet and discovered a hardened steel "dart" incased inside the black tip painted bullet . It was covered with a layer of lead , enough so the rifling could grip the bullet but not be damaged by the hardened steel projectile inside .
My guess is the lead and jacket were shed when it ( the hardened steel "dart") penetrated steel plate.
The ammo will shoot through a 6 inch diameter steel pipe filled with concrete and when the ammo shot clean through a 20" oak tree we figured something was up with this ammo... that's when I cut into a bullet and found the hardened steel dart ... a file wont leave a mark on it !
Pulled a few hundred bullets for the brass , traded some ammo to a police officer buddy who wanted them for busting automobile blocks in road block situations and kept a few loaded stripper clips for my collection . When using these ... make sure you have a thick earthen berm for a backstop .
Gary

That "dart" is called a penetrator, and it's not steel, it's tungsten. I've got a goodly amount of M2AP stashed away. It'll flat beat the snot out of a 3/4" thick steel RR tie plate!

[M-Tecs]

That "dart" is called a penetrator, and it's not steel, it's tungsten. I've got a goodly amount of M2AP stashed away. It'll flat beat the snot out of a 3/4" thick steel RR tie plate!

The 30-06 US M2 AP core is manganese-molybdenum steel. Bofors does make a 7.62 x 51 round that is tungsten carbide

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/30-06-m2-ap-armor-piercing-penetration-tests/

http://www.ammochannel.com/30-06-30-cal-m2-ap-armor-piercing/

[Larry Gibson]

In my penetration tests I considered incomplete penetration and the ability to penetrate (do damage) sufficient mass beyond the armor plate as a "failure".

[Paper Puncher]

Larry

Lots of ways to analyze armor or projectile performance. The US Army Test and Evaluation Command produced a Test Operations Procedure to follow. Your method sounds like the Army Criterion. That method is more severe than the other two. Good choice.

a. Army Criterion A complete penetration occurs when a projectile or fragment has penetrated the armor sufficiently to permit the passage of light through a hole or crack developed in the armor, or when the projectile lodged in the armor can be seen from the rear of the plate.
b. Navy Criterion. A complete penetration occurs when the entire projectile or the major portion of the projectile passes completely through the armor.
c. Protection Criterion. A complete penetration occurs when a fragment of either the impacting projectile or the armor has sufficient energy to perforate a sheet of witness material mounted securely parallel to, and 150 mm behind, the test item.

What is considered a pass or fail (or V50 velocity) will vary considerably depending on the Criterion chosen.

Different lots of M2AP also varied in performance against armor.

[Adam Helmer]

.30-06 AP always shot well in our match Garands. Last year a guy gave me a shoe box full of AP bullets in exchange for a pound of powder.

Adam

[FLINTNFIRE]

Adam you got a great trade with that .

[jaysouth]

When I was a teenager, I had a 1918 Enfield. National guardsman usually stole enough ammo to keep them in practice all year. However, there was a 'warstory' that AP caused undue wear on barrels. I was gifted thousands of rounds because I was a kid dumb enough to shoot out my enfield with free AP. Actually, I knew that the jacket on AP was almost pure copper and softer than the Ball round. Inside the jacket enveloping the tungsten penetrator was pure lead. So the AP was friendlier to barrels than ball or commercial hunting ammo. I continued to play dumb and people kept giving me AP ammo.

I have used the tungsten penetrators held in a pair of long nose vicegrips to stipple front straps on several 1911s. They seldom need sharpening.

[dale2242]

The penetrators make a great center punch.

[Sailormilan2]

From the US Army Small Arms Ammunition Technical Manual, #TM9-1305-200

277913

277914

[Larry Gibson]

A lot depends on the definition of "penetration" Apparently to many if the penetrator peaked through the back side and was still stuck in the steel or bounced out that constituted "penetration". Some seem to think a good size divot constitutes "penetration". The TMs do not define "penetration" in the tables but simply give a depth of penetration (to me, a divot).

As I stated earlier to me, Armor Piercing would be for the penetrator to completed penetrate the steel/armor and still have the ability to damage or wound after penetration. To not completely penetrate the steel/armor or to divot it simply validates the armor's protective ability. However, it is nice to know how much steel/armor or other material will defeat the AP round....30 caliber at least. That gives you an Idea of what is "cover" vs what is only "concealment"......

[Outpost75]

Back in my testing life, the lab notation for a hit in which a penetrator produced a visible crack on the back side of the armor plate, or any in which the penetrator did not exit the plate was called a "Partial Penetration", abbreviated PP.

A hit in which the penetrator exited the test plate with sufficient energy to also produce a hole completely through the 1/10" 2024 aluminum witness plate behind the armor was logged as a "Complete Perforation," abbreviated CP.

CPs were always the desired successful result. A PP was always logged as an incipient failure UNLESS it resulted in spalled material coming off the backside of the armor which produced a hole through the witness plate.

[TNsailorman]

I have to agree with Larry. Try sitting in an APC and hearing the "tink", "tink" of rounds that are hitting its sides but not coming thru. You feel safe. Now try sitting in the same APC with rounds going "tink", 'tink" and then "zing", 'zing" as they fly around inside and tell me you are safe. As Larry said, there is a difference between "concealment" and "cover", but there is also a difference between "dents" and "penetration". I will take "tink", "tink" and "dents" myself. Its bad enough out there guys without sitting in a rolling coffin. james

[Winger Ed.]

Back in the 90s you could buy AP bullet pulls for about $10. per hundred.
I'd bought a few to play around with.

They did pretty good in 7.62 and .30-06.
At 125 yards, we got a few to go through a (junky metal) 1" steel plate coming out of a near max. .300 WinMag.

The hardened penetrator from them and .50BMG AP makes a great center punch too.

[nicholst55]

One additional strategic advantage to AP ammo, and I believe the primary reason that such a huge quantity was manufactured during WWII, is that it requires less lead to manufacture it than Ball ammo does. Steel can be pretty easily reclaimed from scrap metal sources. Lead can also, but is much less prevalent than steel, especially today. AP ammo was always noted for its accuracy, and was supposedly the preferred ammo for snipers for many years. As to the myth about AP ammo causing excessive barrel wear, that was accepted as fact for many years. I recall Phil Sharpe recounting a story about how he supposedly 'tested' this myth by shooting a bunch of AP ammo out of one of his match-conditioned M70 Winchesters, and sending it out to be rebarreled afterwards. Somehow, I suspect that particular story was somewhat enhanced in the retelling.

[3006guns]

I bought my first Springfield '03 back in 1971 at a local gunshow for $125. To sweeten the deal, the guy threw in a full bandoleer of AP. It didn't take us long to discover that a round would absolutely disintegrate small boulders in a cloud of dust. I still have the bandoleer and some black tipped ammo stashed in various places.

[jimb16]

Most of the guys have centered the conversation on penetration. Another major reason for using AP ammo is the accuracy aspect that a couple of guys mentioned in passing. As a general rule AP ammo is normally more accurate than standard ball. It was frequently used for snipers. While being a little harder on barrels, it could provide exceptional accuracy.

[dogmower]

I have a few bags full of those ap bullets. Wonder how they'd penetrate at 3300 fps out of a 300 weatherby magnum?

[Larry Gibson]

Only one way to know.....

[Martin Luber]

It has been said that they are fine in shallow groove rifling like M1 Garands but bad for 2 groove 1903s etc where the lands bite deeper. Is it true? I don't know. Phil Sharp started with the conclusion and proceeded to abuse a barrel to prove it. So I say, l don't know.

[quail4jake]

I gained respect for AP ammo years ago when we were (negligently) firing an M1917 loaded with AP ammo into a VW beetle at way too close a range. We heard a smack next to where we were standing and realized it was a hit into a beech tree, we stopped firing and looked around to find multiple hits on that tree and others. We dug the bullets out and found that it was the tungsten cores that were coming back at us. By the grace of god we weren't hit. I've never fired AP ammo since although I'm sure it's safe to fire into a soft backstop. In later years I took care of an elderly gentleman (I'm an ER Doc) who was a WWII vet who had one of these cores in his thigh. We always chatted about his Army days and I assumed that he was wounded in France but he laughed and told me that the only bullet he ever caught is the one in his leg and it was sometime in the 1960s when he and his brother were shooting AP ammo into an old car when one came back and hit him in the leg. He concealed the mishap from his wife and others so as not to be embarrassed and warned me against shooting AP ammo. I thanked him for the advice and his saving the free world for all of us at a young age. He thought that his service in the war was just a matter of duty and that he was no hero. I miss him.

[Butzbach]

Thanks. I have only shot one round of 06 AP against steel. That was against the thin center portion of a piece of railroad track. It did go through.

According to my Dad, a 7th Army WWII vet, it would do the same to the web of a German railroad track say outside of Duisburg in 1945 . . .

[Butzbach]

^^^^^^^

That's why sometimes "cover" is only "concealment"......

It's also the main difference between 7.62 NATO and 5.56NATO....what is "cover" to 5.56 is most often just "concealment" to 7.62.......

. . . Since 1903.