38 Long Colt Original Configuration with .375" Heeled Bullets

[Tar Heel]

After investigating the installation and use of a 45 Colt cartridge conversion cylinder for a Cap & Ball revolver, I decided that the price of one did not justify getting one to make a half-baked 45 Colt revolver when, with just another one hundred dollars, I could purchase a 45 Colt revolver of the 1873 SAA variety. The economics of it simply put me off. The “38” conversion cylinders were always (and still are) marketed as being capable of handling 38 Special ammunition and to a point they are. It’s not the regular ammunition they can shoot accurately however but the Hollow-Base Wad Cutters that can be used. With the “38” conversion cylinder, the issue is that most folks will ignorantly purchase commercial 38 Special ammunition with .357” bullets and shoot them in a Cap & Ball revolver with a .375” groove-to-groove barrel diameter. Obviously the bullet will bounce its way down the barrel and come out the muzzle in some configuration other than aligned. If a “belly gun” is what you need, that’s what you have with this arrangement.

Around 1870, the age of cartridge guns dawned and they were rapidly becoming the replacement to Cap & Ball revolvers. In 1872 Colt introduced their first true cartridge revolver, the 1872 Open Top, designed to fire cartridges from its inception. In 1873 of course, Colt introduced their 1873 SAA and the rest is history. Know however that from the mid 1870’s until 1890, it was definitely less expensive to have your Cap & Ball revolver “converted” to fire cartridges than purchasing a new cartridge revolver. Many gunsmiths cropped up to perform these conversion services and several styles of conversions were available to the consumer wishing to use the more convenient cartridges of the day.

The owners of the converted 1860 Army Cap & Ball revolvers could easily use the new 45 Caliber cartridges since the groove-to-groove diameter of the Cap & Ball guns matched the bullet diameter of the newly introduced 45 Colt ammunition. Even though the 1860 Army was listed as a 44 caliber revolver, in actuality it had a 44 caliber bore (lands) with a 45 caliber groove diameter.

The 1851 and 1861 Navy converted percussion revolvers with their 36 caliber bores and 38 caliber (.375”) grooves necessitated the manufacture of “38 Caliber” cartridges using heeled .375” bullets in cases. These were outside lubricated .375” bullets which fit the barrels nicely. The original cartridges were named 38 Long Colt and utilized the heeled .375” bullets. As the gun industry rapidly tooled up for the newer ammunition being developed and produced, guns were manufactured with smaller bores to utilize bullets of .357” and enclosed within the brass cases. This avoided the messy outside lubricated bullets and the associated issues with them.

The 38 Long Colt was released initially with a .375” heeled bullet to be used in converted Cap & Ball revolvers but within a few short years the cartridge was modified to use a .357” hollow base bullet enclosed within the case which could be fired fairly accurately in the original Cap & Ball revolvers and the newly manufactured firearms using the now smaller (tighter) bores.

Since the modern 38 caliber conversion cylinders have a true .375” chamber mouth and can fire 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt and 38 Special HBWC ammunition, I decided to get the 38 caliber cylinder and shoot original 38 Long Colt ammunition. These cartridges would need to be made since no commercially available 38LC ammunition is available. Even the single source of 38 Short Colt which is Remington now uses .357” inside case bullets. I just don’t want my bullets wobbling down the bore.
Fortunately I already cast 36 caliber (.375”) heeled bullets since Mark Hubbs of Eras Gone Bullet Molds contracted with Lee to produce a mold which is an exact replica of the 36 Colt Cartridge Works conical bullet for their 1851 and 1861 percussion revolvers. 38 Special brass can be trimmed to the correct length for either 38SC or 38LC ammunition. I trimmed the brass to 1.020” for 38LC rounds. It became obvious that a crimp on a heeled bullet was going to be difficult but, low and behold, a company called Old West Bullet Molds makes a heeled bullet crimp die for the 38 Colt family of cartridges. Looks like I had all the pieces needed to generate my original 38LC cartridges!

The conversion cylinder arrived and I am one of the fortunate customers whose cylinder dropped right into my Pietta 1861 Navy revolver. Whew. I have read horror stories about this and frankly that was my biggest concern. I was not looking forward to working the action parts to make the cylinder work correctly in the revolver. I dodged the bullet there (pun intended). The crimp die arrived the same day as the Taylor’s conversion cylinder and so after dinner I headed to the loading bench to see how things would work. I trimmed a few cases and started.

When SLIGHTLY flaring the case mouth to accept the heeled bullets, I used my newly acquired Lee die set for the 38SC/38LC cartridges. Unfortunately their new mouth flaring/charging die has a sharp, small, almost full diameter pilot and it just kept eating cases. I switched to my RCBS expander plug and we were off to the races. I will have to address this significant design issue with Lee at some point in the immediate future. I may just return the whole set for a refund since truthfully, every step for the 38LC except crimping can be done with a 38/357 die set. Since the 38LC cartridges with the Eras Gone 36 Navy heeled bullet fit in the cylinder, I have no desire or need to generate 38SC cartridges.

After flaring the case mouths, I filled the cases with 20.5gr by weight of Graf & Sons FFFG black powder. I applied a little glue to the heel of the bullet and seated it to the base driving band. I then used the Old West Bullet Molds crimp tool to apply a crimp. It all worked just fine and my first 5 cartridges are ready to shoot! I’ll put some homemade Paul Matthews Formula #1 bullet lubricant on them, chamber them and off we go to see how they shoot.

Making these cartridges is rather time consuming at this point since trimming 38 Special cases down takes some time. Once the trimming operation is complete and I have a hundred or so shells, that whole step is eliminated and the operation will be smoother and faster. The bullet nose is just about .0005” too long and is easily scraped off during cylinder rotation but that is rather annoying. I will have to trim the remainder of the cases that much shorter and adjust the crimp die accordingly.

All in all this has been a great project so far and will continue to be one into the future. I just can’t wait to get these to the range and see how they shoot!

Old West Bullet Molds
https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/

Eras Gone Molds
https://erasgonebullets.com

Taylor’s & Company Firearms
https://taylorsfirearms.com



A completed original 38 Long Colt cartridge with a heeled .375" bullet for use in 36 caliber Cap & Ball revolvers converted for use of cartridges. Notice the bullet diameter is the same as the case diameter.
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Top is a 38 Special cartridge with an enclosed inside lubricated .357" bullet. Bottom is a 38 Long Colt cartridge with an outside lubricated heeled .375" bullet for use in converted Cap & Ball revolvers.
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Left is a Lyman 358311 158gr .357" 38 Special bullet. Right is a Eras Gone Molds 126gr Colt Cartridge Works heeled .380" bullet for use in unmodified Cap & Ball revolvers or used in 38 Long Colt cartridges in converted Cap & Ball revolvers.
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The Taylor's & Company 38 caliber conversion cylinder for 36 caliber Cap & Ball revolvers with 38 Long Colt dummy cartridges inserted. Parent brass is 38 Special which has been trimmed to 1.020".
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A small batch of authentic 38 Long Colt black powder cartridges with .375" heeled bullets.
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[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Tar Heel,

Very nice write-up, I just needed to add a few points.

1. In the day the Colt model 1860's were converted to 44 Colt (not 45 Colt) and required a new cylinder.
The original .44 Colt loading used a heeled, outside lubricated bullet.
The major diameter of the bullet was approximately the groove diameter (.451") of the converted ".44" cap and ball revolver.
The smaller "heel" at the base of the bullet was sized to fit inside the brass case at approximately .430".
This was the First Official Handgun Cartridge of the US Army, used from 1871 - 1873.
The modern version of the 44 Colt is loaded with a .430 lead bullet.
Brass is available from Starline.

2. I believe the 1871-72 Open Top's were originally chambered in 44 Henry, a Rim Fired case with a Heeled Bullet.
Of course the new made Italian replica's come in a modern cartridge.

3. Both 38 Long & Short Colt brass is available from Starline, so cutting down 38 Special cases is not required.

AntiqueSledMan.

[smkummer]

I am making hollow base wadcutters work in a 38 special case for my 1901 Colt DA army with 2.8 grains bullseye. Which is the old tried and true match wadcutter for 38 special for many years. I am going to try the heeled bullet intended for cap-n- ball 36 cal. revolvers with blackpowder in the future though.

[Tar Heel]

Thanks AntiqueSledMan. I wanted to keep a macro perspective and not roll the eyes of the reader with details which would generate 2,834,739 comments of correction. :-)

As you correctly indicated, the original 44's, or 45's if you wish, were 44 Colt followed shortly with the 45 Colt. I just didn't want to go down the rimfire road since the dates of conversion cylinders were narrow indeed and the cornucopia of "new" cartridges was getting immense. The 1872 was originally rimfire as well but not really in the scope of the 38 Colt conversion since it was originally a metallic 44 rimfire cartridge revolver. I just mentioned it in passing.

The only brass Starline had in stock, at last check, is the 38SC but I wanted 38LC so hence the trimming. I needed the exercise anyway. Making these cartridges is a labor of love and every shot will be savored. That's the point for me. I won't be making thousands of these rascals, just a few cylinder spins with each range trip.

Can't wait to chrono these and see how they group. Waiting for the rain to stop.

BTW Mike Belliveau will be doing another video soon on this very subject. His original video is here if you haven't seen it. It's one way to skin a cat. https://youtu.be/UdFTf0xrpRA

[AntiqueSledMan]

Tar Heel,

You will enjoy shooting the heeled bullets, I know I love shooting my 44 Colt with heeled.
I thought Colt re-did the Navy's also, never heard about an 1871-72 being altered to 38 LC.
Not saying it wasn't, will have to dig into that one. When the day comes that I no longer learn, I give up.
Mike does great video's, I enjoy watching them. There are a lot of pointers to pick up on.

Shoot straight, AntiqueSledMan.

[Tar Heel]

Tar Heel,

You will enjoy shooting the heeled bullets, I know I love shooting my 44 Colt with heeled.
I thought Colt re-did the Navy's also, never heard about an 1871-72 being altered to 38 LC.
Not saying it wasn't, will have to dig into that one. When the day comes that I no longer learn, I give up.
Mike does great video's, I enjoy watching them. There are a lot of pointers to pick up on.

Shoot straight, AntiqueSledMan.

No they never were. I included the gun as a reference to Colt's first cartridge gun by design, not a conversion. As you are probably aware, most of the 1872's went south to Mexico as graft since the 1873 SAA was the darling gun after its release on the market. Like you say though, wait long enough and we will see an original 1872 converted to <centerfire> from <rimfire>. Oh jeez, now I have to look.

Agree with Mike's videos. He is a tinkerer and chock full of great ideas. Mark Hubbs, Cap&Ball, Dustin, and a few others do fantastic videos too. All worth the watch. I wish I was as well spoken as those hombres.

Later...

[bedbugbilly]

Tar Heel - very nice write up! You're going to love shooting the heeled 38LC.

Glad the Eras Gone .36 Colt boolit worked out. I'm curious as to why you are putting glue on the heel? If you can seat that boolit and it hold with neck tension, using the Old
west collet crimp should hold it just fine. If you apply a little extra crimp for any reason, at least with the heeled boolit you don't have to worry about swaging down the diameter of the drive bands like you wield with a standard 38 loading.

If a person hasn't loaded heeled boolits before, it does take time to get used to it but once you get a technique down that works for you, you'll soon be pumping them out in good order.

When you get going and get dome range time in with the Eras Gone heeled boolit, please post and let us know how they shoot for you. Right now, I'm using the Old West 150 grain heeled as I haven't had the time to get any of the Eras Gone .36 Colt heeled cast up. All I have on hand is a couple of samples from my last casting session a year or so ago and I haven't set up to see how they seat and check the neck tension and then collet crimp. I using a Pietta '58 Remington Navy with Taylor conversion cylinder. While I like my 45 Colt conversions, the .36 c & b conversions are just a whole lot of fun with the heeled loads.

Great write up and good luck - will be anxious to hear how they shoot.

[John Boy]

Tar Heel, you don’t have to waste your time reforming cases for 38 Longs ... just go to Roberson Cartridge Co and buy a few CNC lathe turned new ones ...

[John in PA]

I am also working with the .38 long CF, but in a Remington No. 1 Rolling Block. Lovely rifle, mint bore. I am also trimming down .38 Special cases to 1.000" length, and using the Old West crimping die (a LOVELY design, BTW). Using a custom mold I had Tom at Accurate Molds make for me. http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=38-160H I've been experimenting with a dip lube, and still a work in progress. My issue is that with 20 grains Olde Eynsford 3F, I get excellent case obturation and seal, but with smokeless powders I've tried so far (Unique 5.0 gr and Blue Dot 6.5 gr), I get lousy obturation and a lot of soot along the outside of the case. I've loaded some experimental rounds with Trail Boss, but haven't shot any. I suppose the issue is the rather light bullet pull force given that the case is only grabbing about .150" at the bullet base.

Any suggestions from the peanut gallery?

[missionary5155]

Did you anneal your brass ?
I may have missed that...
We have a Colt Double Action which stays much cleaner with annealed brass.

[Tar Heel]

Tar Heel, you don’t have to waste your time reforming cases for 38 Longs ... just go to Roberson Cartridge Co and buy a few CNC lathe turned new ones ...

John Boy, thanks for the tip but frankly at $200.00 per 50 cases, that's WAY too rich for me. Starline brass is $25 per hundred. I'll trim some 38 SPL until brass is once again available from Starline.

[toot]

thanks for posting.

[John in PA]

Tar Heel, buried in your excellent write-up, I stumbled across the comment "I applied a bit of glue to the bullet heel." Could you elaborate? I'm guessing the purpose of this is to increase bullet pull(?) Mine hold together quite well for normal handling, etc. by keeping case "necks" with minimal expansion. I actually only "neck-size" the fired cases, and flare case mouth barely enough to accept the heel, then mouth-crimp using the OW die to maximize bullet pull for more consistent combustion and pressures. Of course, since I'm shooting a Remington single shot rifle, they don't have to stand up to the recoil of cartridges in adjacent chambers as they would if fired in a revolver.
Still, I'm wondering if I'd get any better case expansion with the smokeless loads with a bit of DUCO Cement (100% combustible) holding the heels a bit tighter?
What glue are you using, and how are you applying it?

[Tar Heel]

Tar Heel, buried in your excellent write-up, I stumbled across the comment "I applied a bit of glue to the bullet heel." Could you elaborate?

I hid that pretty well. :-)
I am using Elmer's Stick Glue. I take the bullet in my left fingers and roll the canted base of the bullet on the protruding glue. This places a thin film of glue to the rebated base. I set the bullet into the ever-so-slightly flared case mouth and then it goes directly into the bullet seating die. I seat all the bullets in the batch and then crimp all the bullets in the batch

When I was first playing with these and before I purchased a heeled bullet crimp tool, the glue prevented the bullets from rotating in the cases. I continued to apply the glue even after the purchase and use of the bullet crimp tool since the crimp is more of a taper crimp. I am sure the glue assists with securing the bullet and increasing bullet pull. Since I am shooting the 38 Long, there is more recoil impetus and the original bullets (prior to using glue) jumped and jammed the cylinder since they are flush with the cylinder mouth, unlike a shorter 38 Short Colt.

I don't load millions of these and so I have decided to continue applying a small amount of glue to the heel prior to insertion into the case. With the Eras Gone 36 Colt Cartridge Works bullet, there is not a whole lot of heel to work with so any extra help I can get holding that bullet in the case, I will take advantage of. Were I loading 100 of these at a time rather then 20 or 30, I may rethink the glue application. With smaller batches and the Eras Gone bullet, I will keep on making Elmer's Glue stock holders rich.

Hope that helps.....

[ndnchf]

I've used loctite on heel bullets. It works quite well. I call it a chemical crimp :D

[bedbugbilly]

Tar Heel - thanks for the explanation on the use of the glue stick.

As I said, I haven't played with the Eras Gone heeled boolit yet so maybe I[m missing something.

I'm using Starline 38 Colt Long brass and you are using cut down 38 spl. - so that may make a difference ce as well as far as the casing thickness at the mouth. That Old West shell holder is adjustable. If you haunt's played with that - give it a try and adjust it just a tad and you might find that it gives more than an adequate crimp on the heel so the you could eliminate the extra step of having to use the glue.
a few minutes and a few dummy rounds will tell you real quick.

[meistermash]

Gentlemen Thank you for such a fine thread. I have a early army navy that I need to fabricate ammo for some day. My initial loads consisted of the hbwc variety but shot lousy still. It has the old bore.

[Tatouine]

Gentlemen Thank you for such a fine thread. I have a early army navy that I need to fabricate ammo for some day. My initial loads consisted of the hbwc variety but shot lousy still. It has the old bore.

Same for me; nothing seems to beat heeled bullets in this configuration (I tried Old West moulds' 125 gns bullets). Thanks also for all the informations here.


I am also working with the .38 long CF, but in a Remington No. 1 Rolling Block. [...] Using a custom mold I had Tom at Accurate Molds make for me. http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=38-160H

I really like your design. Do you think it would work in a standard 38 LC DA .375 or will it be to heavy? Do you have accurate shots with it?



All in all this has been a great project so far and will continue to be one into the future. I just can’t wait to get these to the range and see how they shoot!

Your finished cartridges look superb. Did you shoot them since then?

[Tar Heel]

When you get going and get some range time in with the Eras Gone heeled boolit, please post and let us know how they shoot for you. Great write up and good luck - will be anxious to hear how they shoot.

Went out and fired these over a chronograph today to get things rolling along. When trimming cases to 1.020", the Eras Gone Colt Cartridge Works bullet protrudes a wee bit from the cylinder face. I cure that with two draws of a fine file to remove the tip of the bullet. I noticed that the bullets tended to jump the crimp today since I attempted to get a tighter crimp on these. I can't seem to get enough crimp on this bullet with the Old West crimp tool. I think it's just this particular bullet and perhaps my brass. I'll keep using the Elmer's Glue stick on the bullet heel coupled with the crimp since that seems to work much better.

These all shot well with no problems other than a few jumping crimp and popping out the face of the cylinder a few thousands. They were easily pressed back into the cases with my finger tip before indexing the cylinder. Average velocity was 685 fps with Graf & Sons (Wano) FFFG powder. Fouling after 25 shots was negligible with no leading. A few wet patches kept things rolling along. I think I will keep the glue stick for now since that helps secure the Eras Gone bullet a tad bit better in the cases. I haven't shot these for score yet, but the original ones grouped fine for general shooting. Chronograph data follows.

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[ndnchf]

Loctite makes a good chemical crimp. I've used it in 32 and 44 cal heel bullets.

[Tar Heel]

Your finished cartridges look superb. Did you shoot them since then?

Did today. Summary is above. Had a great time making and shooting these. It will only get better.

[Tatouine]

Thanks for sharing and for the hard-to-find chrono data. Hope you enjoyed your session.

[John in PA]

I really like your design. Do you think it would work in a standard 38 LC DA .375 or will it be to heavy? Do you have accurate shots with it?


thanks, Tat. I would say there's no reason it shouldn't work as well. The key to whether it would work in your revolver would be overall length of a loaded round that the cylinder would accommodate. Then add the issue of getting a secure crimp on the heel. I would maximize the diameter of the heel, considering brass thickness and chamber dimensions. Tom's drawings (Accurate Molds) include all dimensions, lengths and diameters. Precise diameters can be specified by you for any and all bands as well as the heel. after casting I size driving bands only to bore diameter. Then after loading and crimping I dip lube with a relatively stiff black powder lube if I'm loading BP. If I could get a satisfactory smokeless load, I'd use the 45-45-10 lube from White Label Lube, applied to bullet with an artist's brush, but still trying to get a satisfactory smokeless load worked out. Annealing cases would possibly improve obturation, but may decrease bullet pull, so I'm on the fence with that, especially since pressures generated with 20 gr 3F seem to seal quite well.

[John in PA]

I've used loctite on heel bullets. It works quite well. I call it a chemical crimp :D

Curious: Which flavor Loctite?

I may try a little DUCO cement on the heels for smokeless. Solvent based, 100% combustible when dry. OTOH, I wonder if most of it would get "squee-geed" off when seating the heel in the case mouth?
Another experiment... :popcorn:

[ndnchf]

I use Permatex Secures Gears, just because I have it. But I think any medium strength thread locker would work fine too.

https://www.rsci.com/secures-gears

I just put a drop on the heel, then rotate the bullet to spread it around. It sets in about 10 minutes.

[Ajohns]

When using a repro cap n ball conversion, has anyone had better luck with one weight or another? I've 125ish and 150ish weight ones for sale and was just curious.

[bedbugbilly]

Tar Heel - Thanks so much for your range/shooting results - interesting!

Your "bullet jump" obviously shows that with the Eras Gone boolit that your method of using the glue is a good way to go. It's all a matter of experimentation and what works best.

The question the someone had (I can't go back to the post as I type this) as to if there if a difference between how a 125 gr. and a 150 gr. boolit shooting in a C & B with a conversion cylinder - I have only used the 150 gr. Old West. Apples to oranges but in a standard 38 special - both in my old S & W M & P - I have always used a 122 or so grain and a 158 gr boolit and both shot equally as well once the load was tweaked. The same out of my Uberti 357 Bisley - but those are .357 bores.

I have a Uberti 1851 R & M conversion - but with .357 bore - and the same out of that - it shoots a variety of boolit weights very well. I'll add the they were smokeless loads - not heavy and I don't have a chronological but under the 850 fps max that is recommended for a conversion cylinder - Red Dot or Bulls Eye. I haven't had the chance to try BP loads in it.

One of the best shooting boolits out of my Uberti '51 R & M conversion has been a 148 grain WC. (smokeless) but I haven't tried the holy black with the boolit yet.

Again - this is apples to oranges - but my experience with those grain weights out of a .357 bore. I will at some point either get the 125 gr. heeled bullet mold from Old West or have Accurate cut one. I'm not "high tech" by any means, but with the way my Uberti '51 conversion with the .357 bore shoots the 148 gr. wadcutter - I am really thinking about having a mold cut for a "heeled" .375 wadcutter to try in the C & B conversion cylinder - just not sure how a heeled wadcutter would fly.

All interesting stuff and fun to play with. I enjoy hearing and see what others are doing and what is working for them as there is always more than one way to skin a cat.

[Ajohns]

Thank you. Looking forward to trying this out!

[Wayne Smith]

No reason a heeled wadcutter wouldn't fly just like any other wadcutter - they are designed for short range after all.

[Tar Heel]

All interesting stuff and fun to play with. I enjoy hearing and see what others are doing and what is working for them as there is always more than one way to skin a cat.

That's the bottom line I figure. I find myself saying "well this ought to work" and then it's off to the races. Most times it doesn't work well but heck, it beats bush hogging. I ordered some HB bullets from Old West Molds to see how they work in the cylinder/gun too. They should be here tomorrow. I'm like a kid at Christmas waiting for them.

I too enjoy reading about most of the "projects" members have in process. Some sound real interesting and I have gleaned a lot of information from these pages as well as others. I just keep adding information into the mill and let it churn a while. Problem is there is probably too much information up there to catalog anymore!

Well the little Eras Gone bullet works just fine but I will keep on gluing the rascals to seal them up tight. I still like shooting them in the percussion cylinder. They seat real nice in there. Fun little bullet to mess with and pretty darn accurate in the percussion cylinder too. Worth having that mold as well as his others.

I'll post data on the Old West .357 HBRN bullet as soon as I can get them loaded up.

[John in PA]

Here's the heel bullet I designed for the .38 Long. I've been using it in an original Remington Rolling Block. Check your cylinder length to be sure it will work for you if seated to the base of the bottom driving band (Tom has all the dimensions on the drawing) Nice proportion of bearing surface to overall length. Loaded and dip lubed they look like overgrown .22LR ;-)

Heel diameter and band diameters can be modified to your needs on the order form. http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=38-160H 279490

[bedbugbilly]

That's nice John - a good looking boolit!

When I get some time I'll stack up the dimensions and see if it would work in a conversion cylinder not. Mine is for a Pietta '58 .36 cal Navy but I also have one on the way form Howell for one of my '51 Uberti Navy revolvers.

[Tar Heel]

Well yesterday the HBRN bullets arrived from Old West. It was quickly discovered that I can use regular 38 Special cases with these bullets if I crimp over the front driving band. That also puts the base of the bullet in the same spot as with a FB bullet so case capacity (pressure) will probably be the same as with PB bullets (ignoring the hollow cavity of course). I placed the bullets in a .358 sizing die and added bullet lube to the top lube/crimp groove, seated them over 3.0gr of HP38 and crimped over the front driving band.

Ballistics were impressive with the average velocity just a tad slower than the Eras Gone conical bullet at 665.8 fps with a SD of 11 fps. That lower SD is certainly more impressive than the SD on the heeled conical bullets although both are certainly acceptable for a desperado stopper. On paper the Old West HBRN shot 6" high into a 4" group at 25 yards. Not at all bad.

The ease with which these load, coupled with smokeless powder makes the heeled bullet exercise seem silly. Although I enjoy the historical aspect of the 38SC and the 38LC, shooting the conversion cylinder equipped 1861 Navy with these smokeless loads is quite fun too. The issue of course is finding 150gr hollow base bullets in .358".

The 150gr HBRN bullets from Old West Bullet Molds (https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/shop/ols/products/358150-grain-hollow-base-bullets) coupled with regular 38 Special brass fit nicely into the 38 Conversion Cylinders for the Colt series revolvers.

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[bedbugbilly]

Tar Heel – Congrats! That is just downright dog-gone slick as can be! It looks like that boolit worked very well for you and that you had good results with it.

I will start by saying that “I know I am wrong” when I think of a .358 hollow base boolit. He bore of a .35 C & B revolver should have a nominal land to land of .360 and a groove to groove of .375 – thus the use of .375 “heeled”. My main experience with hollow base boolits has been with .58 minie balls – have shot tens of thousands of them over the years. In a rifled musket, “my” personal preference was a minie tht was .002 under bore size – always worked well in skirmishing relays where there were repeated shots and of course, fouling build-up. Let’s remember that the bores had primarily 3 groove military shallow rifling. In “my” experience and that of others I shot with – a hollow base minie that was too much undersize would key-hole and I saw it many times on targets, backer boards, etc. So my “concept” of hollow base boolits is in relation to that.

Now . . .. let’s look at a .36 C & B – smallest I.D. is the .360 land to land and largest I.D. is .375 for the groove to groove. In my mind, a .358 hollow base has to expand enough to fill the .375 groove to groove. Otherwise, there would be a lot of gas leakage around the boolit as it travels out the barrel. To me . . . looking at the boolit you used . . it has a “thicker skirt” for want of a better description – and that has to expand upon firing to help fill the bore. And yes, I’m, sure that these must be out of soft lead. The same as a hollow base wadcutter that a lot of folks use for the conversion cylinders. So those boolits have to expand form .358 to .375 – or else in my mind based on my experience with minies and rifled muskets – they would not fly well – tumble and key hole. BUT – they don’t so obviously my “way of thinking” is flawed when it comes to using hollow based boolits of .358 in a C & B conversion. Pretty amazing!

Your results shows that the .358 HB boolit performed well. Ed Harris (Outpost75) wrote an excellent article on his testing of a Remington .36 cap and ball with a conversion cylinder in which he shot a number of different rounds including .375 heeled and .358 HB wadcutters. The HB .358 rounds performed well – the same as you found out. I had been shooting .44 C & B with 45 conversion cylinders, but it was Ed’s article that really got me interested in the .36 with a conversion cylinder.

Like you – I like the idea of using a “historical cartridge” and I enjoy loading the “helled” loads – both BP and smokeless. BUT . . . that is no reason for a person to be “closed minded” to the use of a .358 hollow base boolit if they shoot well in the .36 C & B with a conversion cylinder. Same amount of fun! I like loading and shooting BP cartridges but there are also times that it is nice to be able to shoot the conversion cylinders with smokeless and not have to worry about cleaning the revolver as soon as you get home nor worry about tossing the BP fired brass into a container of soapy water and get it cleaned too, as soon as you get home.

The COAL of that cartridge in the 38 spl. casing and that boolit look ideal in your cylinder. I think you have a winning combination there. With 38 Colt Long brass being "iffy" to find - the much easier to get 38 spl. brass saves having to trim the 38 spl. brass down - and - with the .358 hollow base boolit - they can always be used in a standard 38/357 if needed - an additional plus.

A few years ago, I bought two older Rapine molds from a fellow – one is for a .45 HB conical and the other for a .38 HB conical (.358). I cast a few up but never got to play with them. If I remember correctly – the .38 HB fell at around 125 grains. These molds are set up the same way as the Lee HB minie ball molds with the base pin being a part of the blocks so it’s quick to pour, cut the sprue, open and dump the boolit and start over. I also have an old Ideal single cavity 358-395 hollow base 148 gr. Wadcutter mold. It, of course, has the separate base pin. When I get back to Michigan I plan on casting in both of them as I think they would work well in my Pietta Remington Navy with the conversion cylinder.

Thanks very much for your post Tar Heel – very interesting and certainly another great option! Great information to know!

[Tar Heel]

bedbugbilly

I too shoot real big fat and heavy hollow base bullets out of an 1861 Springfield and am familiar with the more "optimized" dimensional thickness of those large caliber Minie' bullets. The little 38's appeared to have a very thick skirt for the caliber. Apparently they obturate well in the larger bore and group as well as the 375 conicals. No evidence of key-holing was apparent.I have never had better accuracy with conicals (or HB bullets) than I have with round balls in these revolvers.

Understandably these revolvers were never designed to castrate gnats but simply to give sufficient performance to meet the needs of the period; something fast, light, handy, and lethal at close range. I am a fan of lubricated felt wads by the way when shooting RB's. The proof, as they say, is in the video. OK, I just made that up. :-)


Safe Shooting!

[Tar Heel]

Well as it happens, the 150gr HBRN bullets from Old West Bullet Molds (https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/shop/ols/products/358150-grain-hollow-base-bullets) performed just fine in regular 38 Special cases. Care was taken to seat them below the first driving band to ensure chambering in the Taylor’s 38 caliber conversion cylinder (https://taylorsfirearms.com/hand-guns/cartridge-conversions/pietta-1851-1861-navy-36-revolver-conversion-cylinder.html) for the Pietta C&B revolver. I upped the charge to 3.3gr of HP-38 as indicated on the Hodgdon web site. A slight increase in velocity to 705fps was garnered from the previous load of 3.0gr of HP-38. These loads felt a little more 38’ish than the previous loads too.

From the photographs you can clearly see the bullet getting engraved along its entire length. This indicates it is obturating as advertised and delivering pretty low standard deviation across the shot string. This bullet penetrated 3 water jugs before bouncing off the 4th jug and then landing on the ground. The plastic in the pictured jugs a just a wee bit thicker than the standard water jugs normally seen in these penetration tests. The bullet base was deformed apparently as it bounced off the final jug and/or hit the jug at an angle. I believe the bullet was reflected back into the 3rd jug and it was the culprit causing slight base deformation.

Prior to loading these bullets into cases, I ran them through a .359 sizing die to lubricate the top groove with SPG lubricant. Bullets were then seated and crimped over the first driving band. Evidence of the crimp can be seen on the fired bullet. It’s interesting to note that both the bullet lube already on the purchased bullets (the blue lubricant) and the SPG lube added by me before loading them, has been fully consumed in the bore. This was a welcome surprise to me since I assumed the blue lube on the purchased bullets would have the consistency of concrete. It actually performed exceptionally well in my Pietta 7” barrel and was completely used. No evidence of barrel leading was present whatsoever and the powder residue was easily wiped from the bore with a single Ballistol impregnated patch.

So for the purist in me, the BPC 38LC cartridges with holy black and the Eras Gone 36 Colt Cartridge Works (http://www.erasgonebullets.com/store/product/-36-colt-cartridge-works) heeled 126gr bullet are the ticket. When I just want to bang away a little bit, the 38Spl loads with the Old West Molds 150gr HBRN bullet is the way to go. Either way – it’s all fun!

280803 280807

280805 280806 280804

280362

[Tar Heel]

Range results for the Old West Bullet Moulds 150gr hollow base .358 bullet in 38 Special cases. These were fired out of the Taylor's 38 Caliber conversion cylinder in a Pietta 1861 Navy. Load is 3.3gr HP-38, CCI-500 primers. Bullets are seated and crimped over the driving band. The single group is at 25 yards. The two groups are at 15 yards.

280675 280676

[ndnchf]

Here's the heel bullet I designed for the .38 Long. I've been using it in an original Remington Rolling Block. Check your cylinder length to be sure it will work for you if seated to the base of the bottom driving band (Tom has all the dimensions on the drawing) Nice proportion of bearing surface to overall length. Loaded and dip lubed they look like overgrown .22LR ;-)

Heel diameter and band diameters can be modified to your needs on the order form. http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=38-160H 279490

John - I really like the looks of that bullet. How is it shooting in your rolling block? Is that a #1 or #2 rifle? I am very fond of #2 rollers and have them in .22, .32 (32 WCF and 32 XL Ballard) and .44 cal. I'm on the hunt for a 38 cal #2 now. I like the two grease grooves to provide plenty of lube for a long barrel. How long are your cases?

[ndnchf]

Regarding dip lubing. I've been experimenting with an old time factory heel bullet lube. These .44 heel bullets are dipped in the lube after loading. This lube was recounted in an interview with a retired ammunition factory worker in a 1943 issue of The American Rifleman. It is 1 part paraffin, 1 part mutton tallow, 1/2 part beeswax. It dries to a non-sticky coating, yet is soft enough to chamber without interference. So far, I'm very happy with its performance with both smokeless and black powder. The bore stays quite clean and I get a nice lube star at the muzzle.

[John in PA]

John - I really like the looks of that bullet. How is it shooting in your rolling block? Is that a #1 or #2 rifle? I am very fond of #2 rollers and have them in .22, .32 (32 WCF and 32 XL Ballard) and .44 cal. I'm on the hunt for a 38 cal #2 now. I like the two grease grooves to provide plenty of lube for a long barrel. How long are your cases?

I settled on a 1.000" case length. This is based on the length of the bullet bearing surface against a chamber cast that I made. I'm shooting in a Number 1 Rolling Block, marked "38", and measures out at 38 Long CF (RF had the same dimensions, I believe) It has a sliding Remington vernier tang sight, with a rocky mountain rear, and a Beach's front. I haven't shot on paper, just metal targets so far. I'd really like to get a good, well-obturating/sealing smokeless load figured out. I'm intrigued by the .358" OWHB bullet referenced above. I know the practice was common for the ammunition manufacturers and supposedly accuracy was "minute of torso" in revolvers, but I'm wondering if the under-bore front half of the bullet would ride the lands nicely, with the base blowing out enough for a bore-seal, but no so much that it would shuttlecock at the muzzle, given the low pressure loads I'm using? AT that rate, I could nearly use .357 Mag cases, though I'd have to check length against the chamber cast. The Devil's always in the details... :-?

[ndnchf]

Thanks John. That sounds like a great rifle. My experience with heel bullet rifles has been in 32 and 44 cal. I've found them to be just as accurate as similar inside lube cartridges.

[Jesse Heywood]

Regarding dip lubing. I've been experimenting with an old time factory heel bullet lube. These .44 heel bullets are dipped in the lube after loading. This lube was recounted in an interview with a retired ammunition factory worker in a 1943 issue of The American Rifleman. It is 1 part paraffin, 1 part mutton tallow, 1/2 part beeswax. It dries to a non-sticky coating, yet is soft enough to chamber without interference. So far, I'm very happy with its performance with both smokeless and black powder. The bore stays quite clean and I get a nice lube star at the muzzle.

Where do you get the tallow?

[ndnchf]

I got it from Dixie Gun Works years ago. But just Google it. There are many online suppliers.

[jason60chev]

Hello.....Am trying to hand load some 38 LC heeled based cartridges. I have good bullets and I have the Old West Bullet Mould's crimp die. I have adjusted the die to crimp where the heel of the bullet fits into the case, but I do not see any evidence of a crimp. Also, I can lightly tug on the bullet and pull it out of the case, after applying a crimp. I have the crimp die mounted into a Lee Hand press, but cannot see how that would make a diffeence. Am I doing something wrong or is this the way it is supposed to work? Thanks.



After investigating the installation and use of a 45 Colt cartridge conversion cylinder for a Cap & Ball revolver, I decided that the price of one did not justify getting one to make a half-baked 45 Colt revolver when, with just another one hundred dollars, I could purchase a 45 Colt revolver of the 1873 SAA variety. The economics of it simply put me off. The “38” conversion cylinders were always (and still are) marketed as being capable of handling 38 Special ammunition and to a point they are. It’s not the regular ammunition they can shoot accurately however but the Hollow-Base Wad Cutters that can be used. With the “38” conversion cylinder, the issue is that most folks will ignorantly purchase commercial 38 Special ammunition with .357” bullets and shoot them in a Cap & Ball revolver with a .375” groove-to-groove barrel diameter. Obviously the bullet will bounce its way down the barrel and come out the muzzle in some configuration other than aligned. If a “belly gun” is what you need, that’s what you have with this arrangement.

Around 1870, the age of cartridge guns dawned and they were rapidly becoming the replacement to Cap & Ball revolvers. In 1872 Colt introduced their first true cartridge revolver, the 1872 Open Top, designed to fire cartridges from its inception. In 1873 of course, Colt introduced their 1873 SAA and the rest is history. Know however that from the mid 1870’s until 1890, it was definitely less expensive to have your Cap & Ball revolver “converted” to fire cartridges than purchasing a new cartridge revolver. Many gunsmiths cropped up to perform these conversion services and several styles of conversions were available to the consumer wishing to use the more convenient cartridges of the day.

The owners of the converted 1860 Army Cap & Ball revolvers could easily use the new 45 Caliber cartridges since the groove-to-groove diameter of the Cap & Ball guns matched the bullet diameter of the newly introduced 45 Colt ammunition. Even though the 1860 Army was listed as a 44 caliber revolver, in actuality it had a 44 caliber bore (lands) with a 45 caliber groove diameter.

The 1851 and 1861 Navy converted percussion revolvers with their 36 caliber bores and 38 caliber (.375”) grooves necessitated the manufacture of “38 Caliber” cartridges using heeled .375” bullets in cases. These were outside lubricated .375” bullets which fit the barrels nicely. The original cartridges were named 38 Long Colt and utilized the heeled .375” bullets. As the gun industry rapidly tooled up for the newer ammunition being developed and produced, guns were manufactured with smaller bores to utilize bullets of .357” and enclosed within the brass cases. This avoided the messy outside lubricated bullets and the associated issues with them.

The 38 Long Colt was released initially with a .375” heeled bullet to be used in converted Cap & Ball revolvers but within a few short years the cartridge was modified to use a .357” hollow base bullet enclosed within the case which could be fired fairly accurately in the original Cap & Ball revolvers and the newly manufactured firearms using the now smaller (tighter) bores.

Since the modern 38 caliber conversion cylinders have a true .375” chamber mouth and can fire 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt and 38 Special HBWC ammunition, I decided to get the 38 caliber cylinder and shoot original 38 Long Colt ammunition. These cartridges would need to be made since no commercially available 38LC ammunition is available. Even the single source of 38 Short Colt which is Remington now uses .357” inside case bullets. I just don’t want my bullets wobbling down the bore.
Fortunately I already cast 36 caliber (.375”) heeled bullets since Mark Hubbs of Eras Gone Bullet Molds contracted with Lee to produce a mold which is an exact replica of the 36 Colt Cartridge Works conical bullet for their 1851 and 1861 percussion revolvers. 38 Special brass can be trimmed to the correct length for either 38SC or 38LC ammunition. I trimmed the brass to 1.020” for 38LC rounds. It became obvious that a crimp on a heeled bullet was going to be difficult but, low and behold, a company called Old West Bullet Molds makes a heeled bullet crimp die for the 38 Colt family of cartridges. Looks like I had all the pieces needed to generate my original 38LC cartridges!

The conversion cylinder arrived and I am one of the fortunate customers whose cylinder dropped right into my Pietta 1861 Navy revolver. Whew. I have read horror stories about this and frankly that was my biggest concern. I was not looking forward to working the action parts to make the cylinder work correctly in the revolver. I dodged the bullet there (pun intended). The crimp die arrived the same day as the Taylor’s conversion cylinder and so after dinner I headed to the loading bench to see how things would work. I trimmed a few cases and started.

When SLIGHTLY flaring the case mouth to accept the heeled bullets, I used my newly acquired Lee die set for the 38SC/38LC cartridges. Unfortunately their new mouth flaring/charging die has a sharp, small, almost full diameter pilot and it just kept eating cases. I switched to my RCBS expander plug and we were off to the races. I will have to address this significant design issue with Lee at some point in the immediate future. I may just return the whole set for a refund since truthfully, every step for the 38LC except crimping can be done with a 38/357 die set. Since the 38LC cartridges with the Eras Gone 36 Navy heeled bullet fit in the cylinder, I have no desire or need to generate 38SC cartridges.

After flaring the case mouths, I filled the cases with 20.5gr by weight of Graf & Sons FFFG black powder. I applied a little glue to the heel of the bullet and seated it to the base driving band. I then used the Old West Bullet Molds crimp tool to apply a crimp. It all worked just fine and my first 5 cartridges are ready to shoot! I’ll put some homemade Paul Matthews Formula #1 bullet lubricant on them, chamber them and off we go to see how they shoot.

Making these cartridges is rather time consuming at this point since trimming 38 Special cases down takes some time. Once the trimming operation is complete and I have a hundred or so shells, that whole step is eliminated and the operation will be smoother and faster. The bullet nose is just about .0005” too long and is easily scraped off during cylinder rotation but that is rather annoying. I will have to trim the remainder of the cases that much shorter and adjust the crimp die accordingly.

All in all this has been a great project so far and will continue to be one into the future. I just can’t wait to get these to the range and see how they shoot!

Old West Bullet Molds
https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/

Eras Gone Molds
https://erasgonebullets.com

Taylor’s & Company Firearms
https://taylorsfirearms.com



A completed original 38 Long Colt cartridge with a heeled .375" bullet for use in 36 caliber Cap & Ball revolvers converted for use of cartridges. Notice the bullet diameter is the same as the case diameter.
277557

Top is a 38 Special cartridge with an enclosed inside lubricated .357" bullet. Bottom is a 38 Long Colt cartridge with an outside lubricated heeled .375" bullet for use in converted Cap & Ball revolvers.
277558


Left is a Lyman 358311 158gr .357" 38 Special bullet. Right is a Eras Gone Molds 126gr Colt Cartridge Works heeled .380" bullet for use in unmodified Cap & Ball revolvers or used in 38 Long Colt cartridges in converted Cap & Ball revolvers.
277559

The Taylor's & Company 38 caliber conversion cylinder for 36 caliber Cap & Ball revolvers with 38 Long Colt dummy cartridges inserted. Parent brass is 38 Special which has been trimmed to 1.020".
277562

A small batch of authentic 38 Long Colt black powder cartridges with .375" heeled bullets.
277560

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Jason,

Sounds like you don't have the die set low enough in the press, not getting a crimp.
Remember, after lowering the die you will have to reset the height of the shell holder(so you use the full stroke of the press).
So with the adjustable shell holder, you have two adjustments to make.
With the Factory Crimp Die, you should be able to put a groove in the case & bullet (not saying to do so).

AntiqueSledMan.

[toot]

$ 200.00 for 50 cases rely takes the fun out of it. who can afford them prices? not me on social security.

[Ajohns]

Has anyone tried, lately, the heeled boolits in a Colt New Army or Navy revolver? I have an 1896 that I slugged the bore on mine a couple years ago, it measured .362. That be about .013 smaller than the heeled boolits of .375.
All I've ever ran in it was 38 Special hbwc. And they work fine. But the cylinder bores on these revolver are also bored straight through. I would assume there's a jump in diameter, and then a swage down of the lead in this process. So, I bought some 357 maximum brass, trimmed about .100 off, they're the length of the cylinder. Seated those 148 hbwc's flush with 3 grs of Titegroup, they shot better. Much better.
But as it goes, I'd like to try something more traditional also as you guys have. From what I've read here, there's a great bunch of info. I ordered a bunch of the supplies from Old West, just waiting for them.
My next step is to try the heeled way, with whichever brass fills the cylinder the best. Long Colt or Special. Was just curious if anyone has done this lately in the old double action.
Thanks.

[Wayne Smith]

For a heeled boolit the length of the cartridge is the length of the boolit ahead of the heel and the amount of cartridge length to fill the chamber. To load a 200gr heeled boolit in my 41 Colt I had to trim the cases back to fit the loaded cartridge into the chamber.

[Ajohns]

Correct.
I maybe should've said I was just curious as to the accuracy of that heeled setup in a bore .013 smaller than bullet diameter.

[ndnchf]

I settled on a 1.000" case length. This is based on the length of the bullet bearing surface against a chamber cast that I made. I'm shooting in a Number 1 Rolling Block, marked "38", and measures out at 38 Long CF (RF had the same dimensions, I believe) It has a sliding Remington vernier tang sight, with a rocky mountain rear, and a Beach's front. I haven't shot on paper, just metal targets so far. I'd really like to get a good, well-obturating/sealing smokeless load figured out. I'm intrigued by the .358" OWHB bullet referenced above. I know the practice was common for the ammunition manufacturers and supposedly accuracy was "minute of torso" in revolvers, but I'm wondering if the under-bore front half of the bullet would ride the lands nicely, with the base blowing out enough for a bore-seal, but no so much that it would shuttlecock at the muzzle, given the low pressure loads I'm using? AT that rate, I could nearly use .357 Mag cases, though I'd have to check length against the chamber cast. The Devil's always in the details... :-?

John - I'm following up from a few months back.

I now have a #2 rolling block in .38 rimfire. I swapped in a centerfire block and been chronographing a variety of loads using the OW 150gr heel bullet. The bore of this rifle is not perfect. There is a fair bit of pitting ahead of the chamber, but its pretty good further down with the rifling still distinct.

A fellow shooter sent me some Accurate 38-160H bullets to try. My chamber must be shorter than yours. My cases are currently .875" long. I'll trim some cases back to .800" to chamber with this bullet. With the less than stellar bore, I'm staying with clean burning powders - smokeless or BH209. Do you have any load suggestions? Thanks, Steve

[ndnchf]

Just finished refreshing an original Winchester .38 rimfire cartridge.

Bullet pulled - weight 143.4gr, .370" diameter.
Powder - 3F, 21.7gr
Case cleaned out and polished.
Case rim reprimed with Prime-All.
Original powder drop tubed back in.
Original bullet lightly cleaned, reinstalled and crimped.

I've lately been playing with a .38 rimfire #2 Remington rolling block using a centerfire block and cut down .38 Special brass. But, like other old rimfires I've done, I want to test fire an original cartridge over the chronograph. Since the original priming compound is most likely long dead, I like to refresh them with new priming compound and bullet lube.

I hope to get to the range and chronograph it this week.

[ndnchf]

I went to the range today and tested the refreshed, original .38 rimfire cartridge. It didn't go quite as smoothly as I hoped :p But that's not completely unexpected when working with long obsolete rifles and ammunition. Nevertheless, it was great fun and I was able to gather data.

https://youtu.be/A8T1q0mSDHE

[Tar Heel]

Great video! I bet that was a treat to shoot that original cartridge.

[bedbugbilly]

Great video - really enjoyed watching it and seeing the results!

[ndnchf]

Great video - really enjoyed watching it and seeing the results!

Thanks. There many other antique firearms related videos on my channel.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaI37ff_Xx68Gt1PeoXtvKtcAr3VWEUrT

[John in PA]

John - I'm following up from a few months back.

I now have a #2 rolling block in .38 rimfire. I swapped in a centerfire block and been chronographing a variety of loads using the OW 150gr heel bullet. The bore of this rifle is not perfect. There is a fair bit of pitting ahead of the chamber, but its pretty good further down with the rifling still distinct.

A fellow shooter sent me some Accurate 38-160H bullets to try. My chamber must be shorter than yours. My cases are currently .875" long. I'll trim some cases back to .800" to chamber with this bullet. With the less than stellar bore, I'm staying with clean burning powders - smokeless or BH209. Do you have any load suggestions? Thanks, Steve

Sorry, Steve, didn't catch this till now. I haven't done any more load development since my previous posts. I did purchase some of the OW hollow base 158 gr cast just to tinker with, but have been caught up in a million other things since. I'll try to report back if I get the ".38 pea-shooter" out again.

[ndnchf]

Ok, thanks. I'll keep my eye out for updates.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hey Guys,

I will add, I've been shooting Black MZ in my Cartridge Conversion Revolvers (.44 Colt & .45 Colt).
No need to lubricate the bullets. Makes loading a heel based projectile a lot easier, still need to crimp.
I still have not loaded a .38 LC, but it's still in the works. Will be my next project.

AntiqueSledMan.