Machinest help

[just bill]

I finally got all my equipment gathered up from all the major disasters in my house and am finally attempting my hand at 30 cal copper tubing jackets. What I'm having trouble with is set up. I have 2 1' bars of 3/4" stock to work with. I am on the short end of the stick with the setup process.Any machinest that would care to PM me with a tutorial that could get me started in the right direction would be fantastic.
Regards ,
Bill

[country gent]

Knowing what equipment you have, what the steel bars are, and other info would help a lot. Steel is a very broad term or description.

[just bill]

Knowing what equipment you have, what the steel bars are, and other info would help a lot. Steel is a very broad term or description.

I kind of left it very broad in the beginning so as not to confuse any bad thoughts of my own.
Logan 200 lathe (over 70 years old)
4 jaw chuck
ER 40 and 3/4" collet
4140 PR hard
SASswaging instructions

My questions:
Can an ER 40 collet hold 12" bar with out a lot of harmonics, or does the bar need a tail spindle for support. or
Do I just chuck up a 2" piece of bar to the collet , square it , then drill the 1/8 hole all the way through and proceed with the other drilling and lapping to the tubing size, then thread the press end and flip the die and make the final cleaning?

[country gent]

If you have the extra out side material it gets a lot easier. I would center it up in the 4 jaw, If you have a piece of nylon delron brass or aluminum You might turn a sleeve to fit the stock snug and the spindle bore with in a couple thousandths, since ti wont stick thru for a spider on the back end. set up with end close to chuck 1" or so. Fce to square clean surface then center drill. Drill thru using the peck drill technique. .060-.090 clear chips and repeat to depth. Use plenty of coolant or oil. Turn a short end on outside true about 1/2" is plenty. It just needs to clean up. Re center the hole to true. Reverse in chuck and indicate hole true, and cut center. Mount between centers and clean up od true to hole. Use a new drill from a quality maker clevland morse osg. If you have to sharpen it use a gauge to keep true or better a drill sharpener. The reasons a drill walks are uneven cutting angles one side 118 the other 120. un even cutting lengths ie drill point off center. chips over loading the drill and creating uneven pressure.

You can negate the ring by cutting to just over length and cleaning it up after.

Another part of set up is making sure the tail stock is straight and centered. mount a known straight mandrel between centers and indicate it in to o o at each end adjusting the tail stock Then mount the drill chuck with a pin in it and an indicator in the head stock and indicate pin in here only real variation should be up and down and you will need to shim for it.

Then its a matter of getting stock running true and drilling. 4140 pre hard is tough at around 40 rc but the good HSS cobalt drill will be around 60 rc. Pn a manual machine with hand applied oil I would run around 800 rpm to start and go from there. remember to peck breaking chip and clearing every .060-.090.

I would leave .008 - .010 in the bore then final turn and thread lead a min thread dia end for indicating about 1/4 - 3/8" long.

Another trick is start with a very short 1/8" drill and go longer as needed. the shorter drills are stiffer and stay straight better. the deeper the hole gets the better the support. A larger dia drill will also be stiffer and cut straighter if you can go to 3/16 it might make it easier , stiffer drill, easier to get coolant in, easier to clear chips.

On my big lathe 14 X 40 I would cut a length 1" longer than required. center in the 4 jaw with room to thread and undercut sticking out . center in 4 jaw ( its only a couple min job to .001). Face center and drill. When in about an inch I would switch the coolant over to a fine nozzle into the hole.peck drilling the hole way to depth + .125. Turn around in chuck and indicate on thread relief cut finish top and cut to length.

Buy a cheap small oil can and modify with a long tube on the end .090 id by .060 ID 3" long for oil coolant. this you can push in to bottom of hole and use il to make sure chip and swarf are out.

[just bill]

Thanks,for some reason I never thought about the Delcron or alum. shim. I was blind sided by the spider.

In case I need to make the hole blind with a 45° bottom, what is the best way to bore the base ?

[Faret]

Thanks,for some reason I never thought about the Delcron or alum. shim. I was blind sided by the spider.

In case I need to make the hole blind with a 45° bottom, what is the best way to bore the base ?

Custom reamer would be the best.

[country gent]

Make a simple drill angle gauge from a piece of flat stock and sharpen a drill bit to it. The gauge will maintain angle and center. boring in a small deep hole like this is very tricky due to the bars lack of rigidity and being able to see what your doing.

Or a D reamer could be made up to do this.

[garandsrus]

I have never made case forming dies, but have made a lot of sizing dies. All the the case forming dies I have read about were round and made to fit a reloading or swaging press, so threaded round stock and top and/or bottom punches. Your lathe would easily work with that. I make a lot of sizing dies with threaded rod but have also turned oversize stock and cut the threads. I made a threaded collet so that I can chuck a 3” piece of 7/8x14 threaded rod and not damage the threads.

Corbin has several pages about making jackets from copper strip and tubing: http://www.corbins.com/jmk-2-h.htm and http://www.corbins.com/tubing.htm. There are other pages also.

[just bill]

I did a lot or research on the copper tubing dies, I guess 4 years ago, even then the jacket forming die caused questions. Someone actually said that the 45° really wasn't necessary, they found success with a drilled hole. In his sticky thread Lead Chucker said he drilled the die undersized, lapped it to fit the tubing, and bored a 45° base. The secret is" how did he bore it??????". If this wasn't a one time affair I would invest in a carbide ream, but its going to be an interesting. I thought about angle cutting the tip of a drill with a sharpening tool, however most of the drill bits I have may not hold an edge. I'm going to try the real colbalt drill, and see how it works, but I think the hardened 4120 will eat a regular drill bit if not pulverized it and have to start over.

[garandsrus]

Did you read the Corbin pages? He even includes pictures to see the internals of the die.

[Scrounge]

I kind of left it very broad in the beginning so as not to confuse any bad thoughts of my own.
Logan 200 lathe (over 70 years old)
4 jaw chuck
ER 40 and 3/4" collet
4140 PR hard
SASswaging instructions

My questions:
Can an ER 40 collet hold 12" bar with out a lot of harmonics, or does the bar need a tail spindle for support. or
Do I just chuck up a 2" piece of bar to the collet , square it , then drill the 1/8 hole all the way through and proceed with the other drilling and lapping to the tubing size, then thread the press end and flip the die and make the final cleaning?

Unless you're really good at threading, something I doubt because of the other questions you asked, I'd thread the piece first. Not snarking on you, BTW. I'm an amateur machinist, too. I have just started my 9th remake of a required project for my class that I messed up that last threaded section on, after hours of work. My part has to be threaded last because of the design. Two different cylindrical features, all the corners chamfered, and runout grooves cut before threading both ends. Yours can be threaded first, so that you don't mess the threading up AFTER you've done all the really important work.

Bill

[just bill]

", If you have a piece of nylon delron brass or aluminum You might turn a sleeve to fit the stock snug and the spindle bore with in a couple thousandths, since ti wont stick thru for a spider on the back end"

My spindle ID is only 1/32" larger than the bar stock, so is it that critical that the 4 jaw be used instead of the collet ?

[Scrounge]

", If you have a piece of nylon delron brass or aluminum You might turn a sleeve to fit the stock snug and the spindle bore with in a couple thousandths, since ti wont stick thru for a spider on the back end"

My spindle ID is only 1/32" larger than the bar stock, so is it that critical that the 4 jaw be used instead of the collet ?

How much runout do you have if you use the collet versus how close can you adjust to zero runout in the 4-jaw chuck? Do you have a dial test indicator that will indicate in .0001" or is .0005" or .001" as close as you can get? You're stuck with the runout of the collet, whatever it may be. I've got some Chinese ER32 collets that claim to be accurate to .0006", but I've not gotten to test them yet. Some of the US collets are supposed to be better than that, but they're a lot more expensive. I'm going to have to buy a new DTI before I can do any more testing. If I'm patient enough, and have a good DTI, I can dial it in to .0001". Be careful, if you drop them, it does them no good at all!

[country gent]

If the 45* that needs to be cut is on the mouth f the die then boring it with a small short boring bar is the way to go. If its leade in angle I would cut it down to 10* and make it longer.

Good HSS 10% cobalt tools will cut the pre hard well. carbide will do better but at more cost.

Use a piece of 1/8" X 1 1/2" cold roll 4"- 6" long. coat with blue lay out a 45* angle with a line 3/4" from side. cut out and file in to correct. a scale can be used to measure center or a scale engraved along the 45* edge. This is used like a center gauge or fishtail when grinding a threading tool.When you say 45* angle do you mean included or on a side?

Most counter sinks are 82* included or 41* on a side. center drills are usually 60* included or 30* on a side.

[just bill]

I tried to check the run out of my collet holder, think it was around .002, I don't know what it might be with a collet mounted in it, I never really trued the holder to the lathe spindle.

[mrmachinist]

I tried to check the run out of my collet holder, think it was around .002, I don't know what it might be with a collet mounted in it, I never really trued the holder to the lathe spindle.

If you are cutting the part in 1 operation complete then parting it off. The runout doesn’t matter because everything you cut will be true.

One thing to remember is TIR and concentricity are different things. Whatever you indicate your runout to be. Your concentricity is only off my half that amount.

Collet chucks are quick and easy but not known to be super accurate.


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[deltaenterprizes]

Depending upon the size of the hole that you are making, there are end mills with an angle on the end of 90 and 45 degrees maybe more.
This could be used to cut the internal angle .

[Sleeping Dog]

As I work with more of the details of shooting, and especially swaging, it has become obvious that I want to develop some skills with my lathe.

Following up on Just Bill's request, are there any tutorials for a brand new metal worker?

[ReloaderFred]

There are several machinists who regularly post "how to" videos on Youtube. They've been a great help to me while I'm learning to use my Grizzly Mini-lathe, and they've taken some of the mystery out of it.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[gishooter]

School trained machinist here. Started 11 years ago. Initially tried self-learning via You-tube videos and reading. Finally took a night class (one semester) at the community college and saw the tip of the iceberg so to speak. Wound up taking 5 more classes part time, then went back to school full time.
My advice: Sign up for part time/night classes at your local community college. Very cheap and you will learn a ton. Second, find a mentor. Sign up for one of the home shop machinist forms online. And look for local members.
If anyone is in the Dane County area of Wisconsin. Pm me and I'll be glad to help you out.

[gishooter]

To the OP: Bill send me a PM and I'll give you my phone number. Easier to communicate that way.

[just bill]

PM sent

[Scrounge]

As I work with more of the details of shooting, and especially swaging, it has become obvious that I want to develop some skills with my lathe.

Following up on Just Bill's request, are there any tutorials for a brand new metal worker?

Zillions, and that will work well for some people, and not so well for others. I got my 7x10 HF mini-lathe in 2008, and muddled along with books and videos, and didn't accomplish much. In 2015 I took a class at my local technical college (Francis Tuttle Portland campus, for those who are local to me) and going mostly very much part time. I'm still in the class, now 6 years later, though I don't think 2020 should really count.;) One of the things you need very badly to learn is the feel of a correctly held caliper or micrometer. Not having that was quite a bit of my problem. I couldn't get accurate readings until I'd been doing it in class for a while. Not everyone will have that problem. Mr. Pete222, AvE, Abom77, Joe Pieczynski, Blondihacks, and a bunch of others on YouTube are all folks you need to look up, and follow. Also, gishooter's right about the advantages of taking a class, too. YMMV, as they say, but it's worth checking out both tracks. Despite the troubles I've been having with the one part I keep messing up, my instructor says I'm turning into a decent machinist. If I can, you can! Something we did in class, and that helped me tremendously, was to get a set of gauge blocks, and practice measuring stuff on them. You get blocks from . A good quality set is accurate to .00005" or better. Get to where you can measure to within .0001" accurately and consistently, and you'll be doing just fine. https://www.amazon.com/HFS-GRADE-GAUGE-TRACEABLE-CERTIFICATE/dp/B00VQUYVC6/ is a better set than I have personally, right now, but not as good as the Fowler set they have in class. The set I have is a 36 piece set of round blocks, like the one cdcotools.com has for $55. Not as many pieces to practice on, but small enough to carry in my toolbox that I take to class. Theirs is called a Space Block 36 PC Set. Amazon has those, too, a bit more expensive than CDCO, where CDCO is a bit more expensive for their Gauge Block set, but the tolerance of them is .0000005". Take the class, and you don't need to buy as much equipment up front. My class, we needed a 6" dial caliper, and some books, total cost when I started was a bit over $100. Probably around $150 now. I bought a cheap dial caliper at the time. Good enough now that I am looking very hard at better calipers and micrometers, but I tested all of mine with their gauge blocks, and all of them were more accurate than I was at the time.

Bill

[Scrounge]

School trained machinist here. Started 11 years ago. Initially tried self-learning via You-tube videos and reading. Finally took a night class (one semester) at the community college and saw the tip of the iceberg so to speak. Wound up taking 5 more classes part time, then went back to school full time.
My advice: Sign up for part time/night classes at your local community college. Very cheap and you will learn a ton. Second, find a mentor. Sign up for one of the home shop machinist forms online. And look for local members.
If anyone is in the Dane County area of Wisconsin. Pm me and I'll be glad to help you out.

All good advise. Yahoo killed off all of their groups late last year, but a bunch of them moved to groups.io, including many of the metalworking and machinist groups. Go here to register so you can join some of the groups:https://groups.io/register Lots of good info, not all of which is strictly machining-related.

I own a few groups, moderate a few more, I'm a member of 50 groups, and there are hundreds I'm not yet involved with.

I own (co-own, actually, so there's someone else to keep things going when I can't anymore) Metal-Shapers-and-Planers, Mini-Lathes, Mini-Mills, and several others. They're good places to find info, and sometimes local mentors.

Bill

[gishooter]

Sent you a reply with my number. Will be doing some work in shop this afternoon.

[gishooter]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCf9YvM70NA

Scrounge, here is my program I went to.

I highly recommend getting an account at KBC tools, Sussex tool supply, or MSC. I know MSC offers a very good student discount. You can also usually order thru your schools account also.

[Scrounge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCf9YvM70NA

Scrounge, here is my program I went to.

I highly recommend getting an account at KBC tools, Sussex tool supply, or MSC. I know MSC offers a very good student discount. You can also usually order thru your schools account also.

https://www.francistuttle.edu/programs-courses/career-training-programs/manufacturing-technology-machining

That's my program, although what I'm doing is a subset of the full CNC program. I'm strictly doing precision manual machining. That is the first block for the CNC course. My course was $1800, the full CNC course was $4200 when I started in 2015. Don't know what it is now. I'm a Desert Storm vet, so got a tuition waiver. No cost to me except the books and dial caliper. I believe I spent a grand total of $86 for the required materials. Though I've gotten quite a bit of non-required stuff, too. ;) As I say on the metalworking boards I hang out on, "Hi! My name is Bill, and I'm a toolohaulic!"

You'll note that we have a lot of older machines, which has been good for me. My home machines are also mostly older, and a great deal smaller. I love the Clausing Colchester 13" lathe, though they have CC 15" lathes, too. I'm pretty sure I couldn't get either of them in my shop successfully, as I don't think the slab would handle even the "little" CC 13" machine. It's only 2700#. My biggest lathe, the SB Heavy 10L, is only about 1000#, and my big drill press about 900#. Everything else is smaller. Usually a lot smaller.

Here in the OKC area we have a KP Supply. They also have a location in Tulsa, and Wholesale Tool has a facility there, too. I've bought stuff from KP Supply here. Tulsa is about a 2 hour drive, Grizzly, in Missouri, is only about a 5hour drive. I get flyers from MSC & Travers, among others, as well. One of the cool things here in Oklahoma, there is an old foundry in Guthrie, about half an hour from my home, where they hold the Southwestern Ironworkers Faire every May, though last year's was canceled, and this year might be, too. It's a swapmeet for metal and wood workers, and I've gotten a lot of small bits and bobs there. My birthday is in May, so a pocketful of whatever money I can scavenge from the budget and a trip to Guthrie is my usual birthday present to myself.

There is also a Metals Supermarket here, and they've been a good place to get some metal, and I have another metal yard a bit over a mile from my house. It's changed names & management several times since I've been here, so not sure what it's called now, but it's close by and they usually have off-cuts. I'm having a fair amount of fun as it is, and if my back would behave a bit, I'd be having more. ;)

Bill

[Tortoise1]

Good advice in here. I’m going to see if my community college offers these kind of classes...

[mrmachinist]

I went through the school almost 20 years ago. I rarely use anything I learned in school on a day to day basis. I learned a lot more from working in different shops.

My advice would be take a class or two for the fundamentals and then attempt to find a mentor. Going through the whole school curriculum would be a waste in my opinion for a hobby or really even to work in the field. I honestly prefer to train machinists with no working knowledge but with the aptitude to understand and learn.


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[just bill]

The nearest class is booked and has a waiting list for only 6 people, fall term has not been finalized.

[Scrounge]

The nearest class is booked and has a waiting list for only 6 people, fall term has not been finalized.

I had to wait a couple of months, but it was worth it. If you're not going full-time, a bit of a drive isn't that bad. I go two days a week. When I was working, it was a 75mile round trip, home to work, work to school, and back to home. Don't have to go to work anymore, so it's down to about 50 miles, these days. Friend of mine was going to a school an hour's drive one-way on a toll road from his house. Of course, that was a class where they were actually making a falling block rifle in class. My class you can't work on firearms parts. :(

Bill too.

[rboeser]

I think finding a local machine shop to 'volunteer' your time to help sweep the floors. You will learn so much with a good mentor, you will wonder why you waited so long to ask. I've helped several young people through the years. Just don't show up thinking you know how things are done, you will have your a$$ handed to you. After a year or so everyone of them ended working in the city for much more than I could pay them. I've come to expect it and am upfront with anyone who asks and applies themselves. Most important is to learn how to listen and ask well formed questions. By well formed questions I mean you have thought it through and applied the things you were already taught. Nothing worse or a quicker way to the door than forgetting what you were just taught.

[just bill]

I think finding a local machine shop to 'volunteer' your time to help sweep the floors. You will learn so much with a good mentor, you will wonder why you waited so long to ask. I've helped several young people through the years. Just don't show up thinking you know how things are done, you will have your a$$ handed to you. After a year or so everyone of them ended working in the city for much more than I could pay them. I've come to expect it and am upfront with anyone who asks and applies themselves. Most important is to learn how to listen and ask well formed questions. By well formed questions I mean you have thought it through and applied the things you were already taught. Nothing worse or a quicker way to the door than forgetting what you were just taught.

I tried that route, none of them needed any thing like that.

[rboeser]

I can understand that because for every person that was serious about learning, there were 5 or so dingalings that already thought they knew everything. The way things are now, a shop must be sure to trust the person hanging there to learn because a machine shop is serious business, dangerous and literally an accident waiting to happen the very first time you get distracted.

All I can say is try going back, or just stopping by. Just don't show up every day and become a pain.

[just bill]

I can understand that because for every person that was serious about learning, there were 5 or so dingalings that already thought they knew everything. The way things are now, a shop must be sure to trust the person hanging there to learn because a machine shop is serious business, dangerous and literally an accident waiting to happen the very first time you get distracted.

All I can say is try going back, or just stopping by. Just don't show up every day and become a pain.

I worked for an atomic research machine shop many years ago. I had the jobs as follows, clean the lathes, segregate the metal shavings for the salvage yard, replace coolent as necessary and operate the doall saw for rough shaping for projects. Most of the lathe operators were navy trained and thought they were hot stuff and worked in the clean room. I mostly hung in the dirty shop until time to clean the lathes or do the slj jobs, but that didn't help to much as a reference to get into a shop.

[rboeser]

Wow, our shop is a small operation compared to an atomic research machine shop. I'm guessing there are few small machine shops around these days.

Our shop is an odd mix of machines. We build race engines from quartermidget to late models on dirt, pulling tractors, farm and heavy equipment. Of course a fair share of general engine machining for everyday cars and trucks for local mechanic shops. We grind flywheels, balance crankshaft rotating assemblies, all forms of welding, glass bead blasting, bore and surface engine blocks and cylinder heads. We have 4 Bridgeport mills, 2 of them converted to specialized dedicated purposes, a nice gunsmith lathe, surface grinder and many small machine tools we have made or converted from other machines to help us improve our quality and efficiency.

We do small lot manufacturing for a few local businesses that utilize us for short runs. We repair production machinery for the local small businesses.

We can Waterjet up to 5 ft x 12 ft parts and up to 6" thick tool steel on a an old Ingersoll Rand Waterjet that we completely rebuilt and upgraded the entire drive and computer system. That machine has been working for almost everyday for 10 years.

All of this equipment gathered over 40 years and operated by 2 brothers who are self taught. Our education was paid for by us trying, doing and dreaming. We come from a very much lower middle class upbringing that taught us that hard work was required to make the life we wanted. We have many good friends that have trusted us for their repair needs and several have helped along the way.

The very last thing I ever want to see is someone coming to the shop and saying "I'm from the Government and I'm here to help".

There are small shops in the more rural areas of the Midwest. I have no idea what the coast people are doing. The City people are welcome but I prefer they go back to the City at night and leave me alone.

We pay WAY to much in taxes, work hard and play harder. One of the few pieces of life advice I have is take some time to spend with your wife and kids when they are young, they both grow up and leave if you are spending all of your time working and ignoring them.

Back to learning about machine operation and the thought required to successfully complete anything. Try to find a small machine shop locally. It may not be what your preconceived notion of what it should be. You will still learn basics and that knowledge can never be taken from you.