Win 94AE .45 Colt Load help wanted

[georgerkahn]

I recently acquired a Model 94AE Winchester (6.5 M ser. no.; ~2002 manufacture date) chambered for .45 Colt. With much thanks to a couple of site members I now have brass; and, I have other necessary components to assemble some.
However, in my researching loads, I keep coming up with the "jam-matic" and other similar expressions -- all indicating to the effect that the .45 Colt is perhaps a tad too short for reliable functioning -- as opposed to, say, the 1892 models which were designed for shorter cartridge operation.
Hence, I am now in want for information -- to wit, any minimal overall cartridge length which will enable 100% functioning.
Also, a "plus to me" is re bullet sizing -- a good many references indicate the "rifle" .45 Colt bullet -- which "needs to be sized to .452" -- is totally apart from the .45 Colt handgun bullet (.452" sizing). Any light re this will also be appreciated!
Thanks much!
geo

[skeettx]

I shoot one ! It is a delight
Bullets shape is important
I use the old conical nose "Cowboy" bullet
250 grain, and .452, with small flat
Seat to normal length.

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/62702_1000x600.jpg

https://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/62703_1000x600.jpg

NOW, if you want a full flat faced bullet, and 100% functioning,
that is the Holy Grail.

How far is the ejector throwing your brass from the receiver?
Positive extraction and ejection are IMPORTANT.

Mike

You might like these
https://www.jacobeagle.com/product-page/45-colt-250-grain-rnfp-400-count-1

[Mk42gunner]

My Model 94AE is in .357 Magnum, not .45 Colt, but it is a considerably shorter round than the action was designed to use.

Mine will sort of work with RNFP .38 Special loads, if you don't mind the occasional loaded round popping out the top when loading. It works much better but still not perfect with book spec length .357 loads. I did load some with the Lyman 358627 seated way out and it worked slicker.

I always wanted to but try some trimmed .360 Wesson brass to try loading to fit the chamber length, but couldn't find any when I had the spare change.

My best guess is to make a few long dummies and try them. Gradually seat them deeper until you hit the point of no return.

Robert

[glicerin]

I have a .45 colt 94AE, which has a terrible reputation for ctg. stop failure-the ctg. slips over ctg. stop and jams underneath the ctg. lifter. Remedy is to never work the lever with action horizontal, work the lever vertically, full cycle without stop or hesitation. Never had a problem feeding RNF 255 grain. The lee 320 gn will sometimes fail to feed.

[georgerkahn]

I have a .45 colt 94AE, which has a terrible reputation for ctg. stop failure-the ctg. slips over ctg. stop and jams underneath the ctg. lifter. Remedy is to never work the lever with action horizontal, work the lever vertically, full cycle without stop or hesitation. Never had a problem feeding RNF 255 grain. The lee 320 gn will sometimes fail to feed.

I really appreciate this heads-up -- my glee at acquiring this 94AE was dampened as I sought recommended cast bullet loads and saw the myriads of "jam-0-matic" posts. My first try will be using some lubed, but not sized 0.452" truncated cone 210 grain bullets at maximum COL. I surely will keep the Winnie vertical when operating. It is minus eleven out now... may be a few days ;). Thanks again! geo

[Gundogx2]

From my understanding and I cannot recall at the moment there twist is a little slower than most 44s I’ve got the carbine and it prefers the 225s so your 210 may be fine


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Randy Bohannon]

The 45 Colt in the Winchester or any other lever action rifle is a problematic cartridge for several reasons in which why it was never used in original anything lever gun. Some wise guy thought a sloppy chamber and loose tolerances in the feeding of the problematic cartridge would be popular and it turns out he was right. You can expect bulged brass do keep it separate from other 45 Colt brass used for proper chambers. Old steel dies are reported to remove the Colt Bulge from the base. I have found this to be true but I do keep my brass separated . .452” bullets will be to small closer to .456” and fill the throat, measure a fired case mouth and you’ll see where you need to be. Big lube groove boolit and Ben’s Red lube will put smiles on your face

[NITROTRIP]

Hello Geo,
I think I can help you with a change of direction in the way to solve your feeding issue.
Tune the rifle to feed most any bullet not hunt for 2 magic bullets that will feed in these
hard times.

The angle eject has 2 primary different things from the old top eject. About 2-oclock ejector
from 12-oclock and a lower larger eject window right side action top.
Put aside bullet diameter chamber fit for now. The rifle has to get the cartridge from the mag tube
to the chamber first or the rest is just a single shot.
There are 4 action steps all tunable each in 94/92 Winchesters/Brownings and clones. Forget others for now
and focus on yours.

Action step 1) Mag tube onto lifter in bottom of action to lifter backstop. (here is the first cartridge length area, next cartridge stop)

Action step 2) Lifter going to up position.

Action step 3) Bolt pushing cartridge off lifter thru guides (aiming) for the chamber. (4 things can happen here, 1-cartridge hits low
under chamber, 2-cartridge nose goesinta"Tech term" the chamber, 3-cartridge hits barrel above chamber, 4-flippes loaded cartridge
on the ground with empty. goesouta"otherTech term" the action early. Think of the guides as the actions rifle sights. See the 1 magic
bullet nose working here or not. Tune these 3 things and 85+ bullet shapes will be reliable in your rifle. I use Bullet as this is for cast
and jacket /light to heavy.

Action step 4) Bolt pushes cartridge home and lugs are locked. Pay no attention to anything after this as 1 to 3 (has to work) FIRST.
Or you just have a single shot, don't work chamber to mag. Work mag to chamber. Can't gas it down the street if you are in the
driveway. Think 2 sections, 1-getting to the chamber, 2-cartridge to target.

From your post action-3 seems most likely but verify. Start with mid weight 250-255 cast or copper, that was the original design and
Winchester used to set up the rifle, not ultralite or ultra heavy. Get all bullet profiles in this range working and the rest will follow.
Oh" also these rifles 1886-92-94 need to (almost) need be run like you are shooting 3 coyotes in your driveway after your dog. "My dad"

Check this out-narrow it down some and let us know what you find and we will help you get up and run'in. Others will see things I will
mis. This site has the most and the best tech people you will ever find. Some have worked for the biggest and custom outfits around
the world, I think we might be able to help if you step thru this with what you see.

Take Care,
Rick

[pworley1]

Congratulations on your fine addition for your collection. I have found that the way the lever is operated has as much to do with jamming as the bullet choice. The lever has to be operated briskly and completely for mine to load properly. The lyman 454190 works well for me sized .454.

[Thin Man]

I picked up a 94AE in 45 Colt about 7 years ago. It has a short barrel almost into the trapper length range and I didn't think it would have enough sight radius to make it a 100 yard shooter. The load info I am sharing changed my mind on the 100 yard shooter question. The boolit mold I use is a Lyman 452664. The nose shape fits the RF definition but the length of the nose is less than the 454190 pattern. It seems that Lyman shortened the nose of a 454190 mold and resulted in a wider flat face on the front of the boolit. The weight lost from the nose went into the body length of the 664 pattern. This boolit weighs 250 gr. and is plain base. I can't advise on its loaded length as I have always loaded and crimped cases in the crimp groove. For powder selection I followed Hodgdon's loads for H110 powder. I started with their starting load and worked my way up to their top load. The top load from their charts made rounds that produce the tightest groups of all lever rifle rounds I have fired in all brand and caliber rifles I have tested. This was a happy surprise. I had to add glass to the rifle as my tired old eyes are not suited to irons sights any more. The final combination of a short, light handy rifle with glass is a delight, enhanced by the consistently tight groups it delivers. A keeper? You better believe it! This rifle and load will stay with me to the end. Hope you have the same luck with your loads.

[Prairie Cowboy]

The 45 Colt in the Winchester or any other lever action rifle is a problematic cartridge for several reasons in which why it was never used in original anything lever gun. Some wise guy thought a sloppy chamber and loose tolerances in the feeding of the problematic cartridge would be popular and it turns out he was right. You can expect bulged brass do keep it separate from other 45 Colt brass used for proper chambers. Old steel dies are reported to remove the Colt Bulge from the base. I have found this to be true but I do keep my brass separated . .452” bullets will be to small closer to .456” and fill the throat, measure a fired case mouth and you’ll see where you need to be. Big lube groove boolit and Ben’s Red lube will put smiles on your face

The .45 Colt, when used in a toggle action Winchester clone or a Marlin 1894 is absolutely NOT problematic.

1) I own a Remington-made 1894 Cowboy and it feeds and ejects smartly with no denting and no bulging whatsoever. The fired cases will even chamber in my Pietta single-action revolver.

2) I owned a Uberti 1866 short rifle and likewise no bulging or denting, with perfect extraction.

3) I owned an early 2000's JM 1894 Cowboy in .45 Colt and same story.

4) Fired cases certainly do NOT measure .456" at the mouth. They are perfectly normal. Perhaps some early guns had this problem, but I have never experienced it.

5) The myth that the .45 Colt will not function well in lever guns because of the small rim is false. The .45 Colt case of today bears no resemblance to the 19th century case which hardly had a rim at all. Early in the 20th Century the rim was enlarged and squared off for reliability in Colt New Service and S&W New Century DA revolvers with star extractors. And, solid head ammo produced for decades has a fouling groove ahead of the rim which in effect converts the case to a semi-rimless one which has plenty of rim purchase for the sharp beak extractors used by lever actions.

I get very good accuracy from .452" factory ammo and from .453" sized cast lead bullets in my Marlin using standard velocity loads. And, reloading is a snap, just as it has been for every .45 Colt firearm that I have owned.

Mostly, the anti-.45 Colt misinformation is the product of purists who champion the .44-40 and black powder handloads.

[Randy Bohannon]

We are talking about the Winchester 94AE , not Uberti 66 ,73 or Marlin. So your experience has no bearing on the subject at hand.

[Prairie Cowboy]

We are talking about the Winchester 94AE , not Uberti 66 ,73 or Marlin. So your experience has no bearing on the subject at hand.

You said:

"The .45 Colt in the Winchester or any other lever action is a problematic cartridge....."

So, since YOU opened the door, we are discussing any other lever action.

Your post #7 deserves re-reading.

[wildwilly501]

Mine is a trapper marked 1894-1994 Bought it new Mine had the issue with a cartridge slipping under the lifter Winchester was still in business then so I sent it back hasn’t done it since but I make sure to work the action without hesitation.So yes it can be a issue

[georgerkahn]

I picked up a 94AE in 45 Colt about 7 years ago. It has a short barrel almost into the trapper length range and I didn't think it would have enough sight radius to make it a 100 yard shooter. The load info I am sharing changed my mind on the 100 yard shooter question. The boolit mold I use is a Lyman 452664. The nose shape fits the RF definition but the length of the nose is less than the 454190 pattern. It seems that Lyman shortened the nose of a 454190 mold and resulted in a wider flat face on the front of the boolit. The weight lost from the nose went into the body length of the 664 pattern. This boolit weighs 250 gr. and is plain base. I can't advise on its loaded length as I have always loaded and crimped cases in the crimp groove. For powder selection I followed Hodgdon's loads for H110 powder. I started with their starting load and worked my way up to their top load. The top load from their charts made rounds that produce the tightest groups of all lever rifle rounds I have fired in all brand and caliber rifles I have tested. This was a happy surprise. I had to add glass to the rifle as my tired old eyes are not suited to irons sights any more. The final combination of a short, light handy rifle with glass is a delight, enhanced by the consistently tight groups it delivers. A keeper? You better believe it! This rifle and load will stay with me to the end. Hope you have the same luck with your loads.

I so very agree with your sight length observation. The way I addressed this is vis the purchase of a Skinner sight for it. Still way too much snow and cold (now +11*F) here for me to venture out and try it... but with the new Skinner Site on rear, and some Birchwood Casey Florescent Green sight pen marks on the front site -- to suggest I'm excited re this improvement is surely an understatement!

For "kicks" I put together eight "dummy rounds" -- just 250grn flat tip round nose cast bullets in cases with just enough crimp so they do not move from working the action, and all have functioned without issue. Of course the proof of the pudding, as they say, will be when cases are similarly put together with primers and powder... A day in 40*Fs forecast for end of week -- I hope to at least go to range and try it then using a snowbank as a rest.

geo

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello George,

I almost purchased a Model 94 in .357 mag once, I finally decided to pass on it.
The Model 94 was designed for medium length cartridges.
I believe they could be functional, but it was a re-design to make them work.
I know the carrier is different, not sure what else.
Personally, I would have (and did) gone with a Model 92 which was designed for that length cartridge.

AntiqueSledMan.

[georgerkahn]

AntiqueSledMan: I perhaps watched too many (nah... an impossibility ;) ) cowboy movies in my youth, and the same-calibre sidearm and rifle seemed a necessity to someday have. I do have a Model 1892 in .38WCF, an old safe-queen, but to acquire a revolver in this calibre has pretty much always been out of my $$$$ means... On the other hand -- kind of like the cart in front of the horse? -- I have handguns in .45 Colt. My very close friend of 35+ years, Ed, passed, and his widow offered the 94AE in .45 Colt for sale at a fair -- no real bargain, mind you -- price. That it was Ed's, and that it is in .45 Colt calibre made my buying decision quite easy.
Only after-the-purchase, in researching loading, did I come across challenges re loading to feed in the rifle -- which is why I turned here -- as generally accurate, friendly, and concise advise :) is offered. (Thanks for all!!!)
To my research, the Model 1892 was only offered in but five different calibres (.32-20 Winchester .38-40 Winchester .44-40 Winchester .25-20 Winchester .218 Bee (in late production)) -- none, obviously in .45 Colt. However, I believe Winchester made a very limited offering of their "Large Loop Carbines", starting in 2006, in .44 Magnum, .357 Magnum, .44-40 (44 WCF) as well as the .45 Colt. At least the ones I've viewed both on line, and at shows, generally have the number 2 after the dollar sign, followed by three more numbers... also waaaay out of my (retired) means...
Hence my glee in having this Winchester 94AE which even was made with a saddle ring! And, I almost cannot wait for a warm enough (40*F+) day to start shooting it at range!
geo

[Gundogx2]

That’s why I have the 94 as well 92 was out of the budget my performs fine as long as your mad at it and work the action accordingly


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[farmbif]

you need to just run that gun, many have had best success with 454360 sized to .454 if it will chamber that size, make your own experience and get out and use the gun. might just work perfectly

[John Boy]

Minimal OAL to function 100% ... 1.5 to 1.55. Be sure your cartridge guide is properly adjusted

[georgerkahn]

Thanks! The 15 test rounds I've prepared for my first range visit are 1.599" oal. Or, to use technical jargon, just a bare smidgen less than 1.6". I'm encouraged/excited. My dummy rounds seem to function fine, but the pudding's proof, indeed, will be at range.279250
geo

[ktw]

The 45 Colt in the Winchester or any other lever action rifle is a problematic cartridge for several reasons in which why it was never used in original anything lever gun. Some wise guy thought a sloppy chamber and loose tolerances in the feeding of the problematic cartridge would be popular and it turns out he was right. You can expect bulged brass do keep it separate from other 45 Colt brass used for proper chambers. Old steel dies are reported to remove the Colt Bulge from the base. I have found this to be true but I do keep my brass separated . .452” bullets will be to small closer to .456” and fill the throat, measure a fired case mouth and you’ll see where you need to be. Big lube groove boolit and Ben’s Red lube will put smiles on your face

I have an early 2000s vintage 45 Colt W94AE Trapper and this is my experience as well. Standard bore dimensions but very large chamber and throat. I can finger seat a 457 bullet in a fired case. It shoots jacketed well and .452-.454 gas checked bullets reasonably well, but I didn't have much success with plain based cast until I started sizing and loading them at .456/.457. I keep the cases seperated and only light neck size them.

Kind of a blessing in disguise in a way, as there are plenty of 'undersize' (cast at .456/.457), lightweight (300-340gr) 45/70 mold blocks out there and those have worked well for me in this carbine.

I like the 454190 for a general range load. I have a set of blocks that will drop them at .456. I like the Lyman 457191 and 457122 Gould Hollow Point for heavier loads.

I have never had loading or feeding issues with mine.

-ktw

[Greg S]

I had a 94 AE Trapper prior to getting a Winoko 1892. The only thing I did to the 94 after deleting the rebounding hammer triming springs and trigger job was breaking the end of the breach about .020-.030 and rounding/ polishing it. It would eat anything, particularly 255 Keiths.

[robg]

i have a 357 ae win since 98 .ive broken a few ejectors .i did have a marlin 1894cs in 357 but my win is so much more accurate .

[smkummer]

Congratulations on your fine addition for your collection. I have found that the way the lever is operated has as much to do with jamming as the bullet choice. The lever has to be operated briskly and completely for mine to load properly. The lyman 454190 works well for me sized .454.
He hits the nail on the head. You can most likely get by crimping that Lyman bullet in the first top lube groove for your 1894. And sizing to .454 or shooting it unsized is a plus. Also, you may find that you only have to size about 1/2 way down the case if the ammo is shot in the same gun. Modern 45 colt dies overly work the case because they make it sized for .452 bullets. Just my .02.