Wanted -Simple recipe for 12-ga. Round ball in full choke Beretta Companion

[Outpost75]

Sorry, I could not get through the thread drift on the other discussion. My buddy in Italy loads 5 grams of Swiss 1-1/2Fg black powder in brass cases with no plastic or card & fiber wads column, but simply patched soft lead round ball 1/20mm larger than the choke diameter at the muzzle. Kills boar fine. Has anyone attempted this with smokeless?

The Companion is very light 5 pound gun. I don't want a heavy load. I was thinking half the charge for a 12-ga. Trap load, say 13 grains of Red Dot? I want to load patched ball only and not have to search for odd sized wads. I don't need lots of these for pleasure shooting, only as a lower recoil slug substitute which doesn't give me a headache. 1000 fps is enough. I'll probably get a Tanner mold from UK to fit.

Longbow, are you there?

[longbow]

Not yet!

I recently asked a similar question because I have read posts where people claim that they have done this with rifles using cloth patched round ball pressed into the case mouth and also cloth patched balls into shotgun hulls. In both cases I would have figured the cloth would have stripped off due to drag on case mouth/opening crimp, jump through throat or forcing cone, etc. but they say it works.

Taking them at their word I grabbed a 0.715" ball and patched it with 0.011" cotton then tried fit in my single shot bore... perfect! So, I have to load some and try. Worst that will happen is that the cloth will strip and accuracy will be poor. No big deal. But if it works, then there is a viable option for round ball shooting. Oh, I was also thinking of using a gas seal and wad column under the ball but if seal is good that shouldn't be required. Red Dot is plenty fast so may work that way.

Not sure how that would go through a full choke though. If soft lead it shouldn't damage the choke but is a lot of squish so accuracy with a football may not be so good?

Then I tried 0.690" balls and found that two layers of same cloth gave a good fit. That might make it through a full choke but the cloth would be pretty tough and there is literally no room for it so... as above...?

I'm going to say that using a 0.662" ball cloth patched into a standard trap wad should do it. No, I have not shot them through full choke but I have had excellent results with that in cylinder bore. I seated a trap wad in the hull then put a square patch over the "muzzle" (case mouth) then pushed the 0.662" ball into the hull. Just pre-select cloth to get a thickness that makes your ball wad combo a nice fit to bore. It is easy to change cloth thickness to suit what wads you can find... if you don't mind using trap wads which is contrary to your statement of using patched ball only.

I have to think that the plastic and cloth will compress fairly easily to allow that to pass through a choke. Assassin says he uses 0.690" RB's in shotcups through a full choke so if that works a 0.662" ball certainly should.

Again using plastic wads but... 0.662" RB's are perfect press fit into CSD wads. So, powder, shortened CSD wad with a couple of nitro card wads inside, ball pressed in, crimp. That would easily go through a full choke though my intent was attached wad using un-slit wads but the squeeze would likely make sure the ball and wad separated. I have not tried that one either but Greg Sappington says it works well.

What I can say is that I have loaded slugs oover hard card wad columns with not plastic gas seal and blow by was horrendous! I had some sub bore slugs I put into plastic shotcups with gas seal/cushion leg cut off. Figured I'd try it. The blow by was so bad it burned up the shotcups! They stretched and scorched badly. Not sure how well cloth will seal back 8000 to 10,000 PSI. It may not hurt the patch or accuracy but it may well bleed off a lot of pressure. Works with BP though so...?

That's all I have and more speculation than proven out so take it for what it is worth.

Longbow

[Outpost75]

My Italian friend does not crimp the shell at all, but simply depends on them fitting friction tight in the shell. He originally did this in a W.J. Jeffery .577 Snider sporting carbine using 24-ga. paper cases cut off to 2 inches and patching a .600 ball with the same 5 grams of black powder. Powerful load in the .577 carbine! He says that a strong patching material is needed, ideally linen or at minimum a tightly woven grade of muslin. Italian Army surplus hospital bed sheets and mattress covers are what he uses, being a retired military physician.

[longbow]

With the patch ball directly on powder I can believe gas pressure and blow by would hold it on. What I had panned was a typical gas seal then card wad column with patched ball on top so less blow by and no direct pressure holding the patch on. If that works then it allows me to make "regular" crimped loads for same functioning in the pump gun.

Yeah, cotton might not be quite strong enough for that if there is abuse leaving the cartridge and entering the barrel. You need the patch to not only stay on but be in decent shape too.

Not sure when I'll get my method tested... should have been done by now but I am slow lately. Veeery slow!

Longbow

[Outpost75]

Tried a dime in the muzzle of my Beretta and it wouldn't go in. So took a file and cleaned the serrations off the edges until it could be turned around by hand with slight resistance, measured .695" so will look for a .69 ball mold. Looked at Marty's Molds Web site, but after selecting a mold am unable to purchase. Something on their shopping routine is *****.

[longbow]

Yeah, from what I have seen 0.690" is about "standard" full choke (0.040" constriction) so 0.690" RB should fit through any standard full choke +/- a bit which won't hurt. In a shotcup the petals should simply extrude/shear and ASASSIN says his do. Also, 725 says he shoots 0.702" RB's in shotcup in rifled gun so plenty of squeeze there! His wads look like ?%$# (not good) but it works for him.

Not sure how a cloth patched 0.690" ball would behave as the cloth may not compress all the way or shear so the ball may have to squish some. I have no experience there.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Did you notice that Tatu's entire thread has been removed? Never saw that before, seen threads locked, but never completely removed. Must have gotten too intense.

.695 is Full Choke.

Randy

[No_1]

It turned into an personal attack questioning the legitimacy of Tatu & her story as well as Assassin and his story of visiting her ranch.

[Outpost75]

Yeah, from what I have seen 0.690" is about "standard" full choke (0.040" constriction) so 0.690" RB should fit through any standard full choke +/- a bit which won't hurt. In a shotcup the petals should simply extrude/shear and ASASSIN says his do. Also, 725 says he shoots 0.702" RB's in shotcup in rifled gun so plenty of squeeze there! His wads look like ?%$# (not good) but it works for him.

Not sure how a cloth patched 0.690" ball would behave as the cloth may not compress all the way or shear so the ball may have to squish some. I have no experience there.

Longbow

Spoke to the fellows at Log Cabin Shop in Lodi, OH. They had Lee .69 double-cavity RB mold in stock so ordered one. They are sending an assortment of pre-cut, lubricated patches in 0.010, 0.015 and 0.020" thickness, they say loading black powder I should be able to use a patch which provides a snug fit driving the patched ball into the case, so we'll give it a try. They said with black powder a soft pure lead ball will upset to fill the bore, and that in a choked gun I'd actually be a bit better off to use harder lead which won't upset upon discharge and should remain closer to choke diameter. This agrees with the experience of my friend in Italy.

[longbow]

I'll guess that you'll need the 0.020" patches for 0.690" ball. When I tried patching a 0.715" ball with 0.011" (slightly compressed by the mic) old cotton shirt it was a good fit so I grabbed a 0.690" ball and tried two layers, that fit well too. Thought about old jean denim but not tried it yet. One thick patch is likely better than two thin ones.

Again, no experience on how this'll behave when it hits a choke. The thick patch is squishy but a patched 0.690" ball through a choke of about same size as ball... something's got to give.

Longbow