I need a better bullet seating / "crimping" strategy for 45 ACP

[guy_with_boolits]

Right now I have a load master and the pacesetter 3 die set, with the combo bullet seating / crimping (deflaring, de-expanding) die.

This is not working out well for me for a couple reasons:

-Getting the crimp/deflare timed right seems to be impossible with the particular bullet and alloy I'm using. This results in shaved lead as the crimp occurs while the bullet is still moving. I need to do the seating and crimping in two steps. I tested this out and it seems to work.

-The bullet/coal length varies. The LEE die is generic for 45 ACP, so maybe its just not that accurate with my boolits. But also, it may just not be the most accurate design?

What the best I can do here? I'm thinking of a few options:

-Add a second die to do either the seating or the crimping, and configure the existing die to do the operation it doesnt do. 2nd die could be LEE or any brand. Could also be a LEE FCD.
-Upgrade to a superior combo die that does it all and does it well (I dont know about this..maybe the LEE is fine)
-Upgrade to superior individual dies that do it all an do it well (I dont know about this either)

[onelight]

A separate crimp die is what you need. I use the Lee FCD but but any taper crimp die will cure the scraping on the bullet you get when seating and crimping in the same die.

[monadnock#5]

If you were to size your cases and then trim them to a standard length, the seat/crimp die would work as intended. So the choice is, for me anyway, trim, or seat and crimp in 2 separate ops. Personally I choose the latter. This for pistol ammo only.

[guy_with_boolits]

Okay guess I'm just getting an extra crimp or seater die...

Should I get factory crimp or taper?

Also what about that whole thing with the expander instead of the flaring?

[Winger Ed.]

Okay guess I'm just getting an extra crimp or seater die...

Should I get factory crimp or taper?

Also what about that whole thing with the expander instead of the flaring?

The expander and the flare dies do the same job.
Expanders tend not to be so violent with the case mouth, or as critical about case length.

Lee FCD have a cult following, but I'm a separate taper crimp guy and am happy with them.

[recumbent]

Get tne taper crimp

[Bazoo]

I had to switch to separate seating and crimp when loading the lee TL452-230-2R bullets. I was getting a lead shaving. I tried increasing the flare, and then chamfering the mouth, both to no avail.

I don't have any issues combining the operation when loading rounds that get a roll crimp, such as 38 special and 44 magnum.

[tazman]

I seat and crimp in separate steps for all my handgun ammo, I use the Lee Factory Crimp die for final crimp on all cartridges.
I have no problems with feeding, accuracy, or leading.

[gzig5]

Taper crimp separately. Good luck finding one these days

[Goofy]

Color me puzzled. Wanting to crimp a round that headspaces on the case mouth?

[35remington]

Taper crimp is for rounds that headspace on the case mouth. The key word is taper.

[woody1]

Color me puzzled. Wanting to crimp a round that headspaces on the case mouth?

Yes, taper crimp and it can be done with a taper crimp die or a Lee FCD. I generally prefer a taper crimp die but to each his/her own.
Regards, Woody

[bruce381]

the FCD I bought would size down my cast boolits from .452 to .448 or so and make them lose in case.

If I pushed them against my work bench they pushed into the case.

I think the FCD dies vary a lot but for me no good.

[onelight]

the FCD I bought would size down my cast boolits from .452 to .448 or so and make them lose in case.

If I pushed them against my work bench they pushed into the case.

I think the FCD dies vary a lot but for me no good.
I have not had that happen with mine and use the loads in 6 different 45s I use them on most all the handgun rounds I use .
The FCD for auto pistols does taper crimp use . I also have RCBS dies for 9mm 380 and Hornady for 45 ACP but prefer the Lee . I like the simplicity of the way they adjust and the crimp sleeve is designed to leave enough case mouth exposed to headspace even if it is adjusted on a short case and a longer follows.
But I realize they are designed to duplicate factory cartridge dimensions so if you want oversize bullets they may not be a good choice.
You may not have much choice and have to buy what you can find any 45acp standard size die with a taper crimp will work.

[tazman]

the FCD I bought would size down my cast boolits from .452 to .448 or so and make them lose in case.

If I pushed them against my work bench they pushed into the case.

I think the FCD dies vary a lot but for me no good.

Due to reports, I get the feeling Lee FCD dies may vary a bit in the dimensions of the carbide ring. I have had no issues with ANY of mine sizing down boolits.
You can always avoid that by knocking the carbide ring out of it and just use the crimp part of the die.

[fcvan]

I started loading 45 ACP in '87 when I got my SA 1911. Seat/crimp die was set up per Lee instructions, never had a problem. Imade a dummy round for every cartridge I load for and keep them around for checking my dies, never had to re-adjust other than changing projectiles I cast. My crimp is just enough to take out the flare, always kept the boolit firmly held in the case.

[toallmy]

Can you adjust your die up a little more , so it's just barely removing the flair when the cast boolits are seated at the over all length you desire ? What is the measurement of a finished round at the case mouth ? .471 -.473

[44MAG#1]

I crimp in separate step. Simply because I taper crimp pretty heavy. To around. 469 " on the case mouth.

[pastera]

Have access to a 3d printer?
I use 3d printed seating dies that I modeled up a while ago - haven't worn any out yet after thousands of rounds.
I did have one fail because I dropped a bullet on crooked but that ended up with a failed die, crushed case and seriously damaged bullet.

[Murphy]

I have to admit, I wasn't happy about adding an extra step in my reloading process long ago. We didn't have the internet way back then and had to figure a lot of things out first hand. There were few in my area who reloaded their own. I'd read several times in articles about seating, then crimping and it just didn't make sense. That's what the die is designed to do, right? After having to pull a couple hundred 38 Semi-wadcutters the light came on for me. The same with 45 Auto when I began reloading it 35 years ago. I've found the sweet spot for my 45 Auto crimps to be .471

Murphy

[Lloyd Smale]

i crimp in a separate operation with a fcd or most times just another seating die with the seating stem removed. i have two sets of dies for everything i load so there always there to use.

[guy_with_boolits]

there is some argument to be made here that the die SHOULD do both since its designed for 45 ACP

But if you think about it..the crimping action and the seating action must always take place simultaneously...

I did spend an honest hour actually trying to adjust it carefully so that I got no shaving and still got crimp..I couldnt get it to work. Maybe its because my cases are not all the same length (range pickup).

I'd be up for trying it again..

On the other hand, I dont really see a problem with adding the taper as the separate step..I have an extra die spot so why not? Maybe it will help with the seating operation being more consistent COAL if its not also crimping

I was very tempted to 3D print or machine something but looks like I got another seating/crimp die on the way so I'm just going to use that

[mdi]

Like many above, I seat and "crimp", with a plain taper crimp die in separate operations. I do so in all my semi-auto handloads, regardless of caliber. I have never needed to "post seat/crimp size" any handload and if a round didn't pass the plunk test I found out why and I fixed it. I haven't had any failures to chamber that I can remember (got my first 45 ACP in about '91)...

When taper crimping the case mouth isn't reduced enough for any headspacing problems (too small case mouth to hit chamber end) and I just straighten put any flare (I don't measure case mouths and any case length variations are inconsequential). Actually a Profile crimp or roll crimp die will work, just kiss the case mouth enough to deflare. BTDT...

[farmbif]

get yourself a Redding premium handgun set or one of the old Lyman deluxe 4 die sets and never look back

[45-70 Chevroner]

Okay guess I'm just getting an extra crimp or seater die...

Should I get factory crimp or taper?

Also what about that whole thing with the expander instead of the flaring?

The Lee FCD for the 45 is a seater and taper crimp die. I just got one a week ago from Midway, and it works great.

[mehavey]

Dumb question #1:
Can you back that Lee seating body off to where there is no crimp at all,
and still screw the seater plug down to seat the bullet to the OAL you want ?

[guy_with_boolits]

The Lee FCD for the 45 is a seater and taper crimp die. I just got one a week ago from Midway, and it works great.

it seats?

[guy_with_boolits]

Dumb question #1:
Can you back that Lee seating body off to where there is no crimp at all,
and still screw the seater plug down to seat the bullet to the OAL you want ?

thats what the plan is for the "separate steps" strategy......and what I've tested using a single die by first unscrewing the body way out as you describe, then after the bullet has been seated, screwing the body way back in (and unscrewing the bullet plug) to remove the crimp..seems to work great.

[mehavey]

Can you do it... get a cartridge properly seated with no crimp?

[guy_with_boolits]

Chrono results today:

MP-452-200
jacketed range scrap alloy with perhaps some tin added
hollow point, with lube groove, with circular pin
COAL 1.160" to 1.170"
seating and crimping in two steps
4.5gn bullseye

ALOX'd:
838
837
847
860
851
847

PC'd
828
839
857
853

I'm not really setup to do proper accuracy testing yet. I did put 3 rounds of through the same hole at about 20 feet, but the rest of the group wasn't that tight.

Leading did not seem that bad after about 60 rounds. There was stuff in the barrel. Only the beginning of one groove seemed to have something that didnt immediately come off and I had to scrub a little. Not sure if thats normal? What am I supposed to see?

Anyways I was able to hit some things at least some of the time at 50 yards with the ALOX'd ones (I did not take notes, but I am pretty sure it was the ALOX ones)

This testing was not definitive enough. So I'm just going to make 100 more of each and go back for more "testing" lol

1 gallon water jug at 50 yards did not explode impressively...although it did crack...I need a better setup to catch the round for inspection

[guy_with_boolits]

Can you do it... get a cartridge properly seated with no crimp?

ya it seemed to seat fine without crimping....should that not be expected? I still have to remove the flare though so the crimp is mandatory right?

[mehavey]

OK.... with the bullet at proper depth, but the case still flared....

Can you now withdraw the seater plug, and graaaaaadually screw the die body down to where the mouth measures .471 - .472 (max) ?

[toallmy]

Only if the flair is stopping the rounds from fully entering the chamber / plunk test .
Your getting there

[guy_with_boolits]

OK.... with the bullet at proper depth, but the case still flared....

Can you now withdraw the seater plug, and graaaaaadually screw the die body down to where the mouth measures .471 - .472 (max) ?

yes this is what I spent an hour carefully doing

the problem is that it ends up shaving lead when it gets down to the diameter where it plunks the right distance

I would be up for attempting it again...maybe there is a very narrow sweet spot where it works. However Im using mixed range brass so....probably not if the cases vary in length right

[guy_with_boolits]

Only if the flair is stopping the rounds from fully entering the chamber / plunk test .
Your getting there

ya the flare definitley does prevent chambering..and if I flare less the bullet is hard to seat

[mehavey]

The problem is that it ends up shaving lead when it gets down to the diameter where it plunks the right distanceNo, we're not there yet.
With a seated bullet/but-still-flared case -- and with the seater plug unscrewed -- can you then screw the die body down just enough to de-flare the case ?

[Soundguy]

1 seat 1 crimp die. Can be same dies or a specific crimp like a lee fcd. A fcd will be cheapest option.

[guy_with_boolits]

No, we're not there yet.
With a seated bullet/but-still-flared case -- and with the seater plug unscrewed -- can you then screw the die body down just enough to de-flare the case ?

I already walked through this and tried to take out just enough flare to where it would plunk, yes, with the seating plug all the way out. At the same moment it starts to plunk, the lead gets shaved.

It would be worth another try though. I'm about to do another batch so I'll give it a shot

[mehavey]

How does the lead shave if the bullet seater plug is all the way out ?

[guy_with_boolits]

How does the lead shave if the bullet seater plug is all the way out ?

Okay let me clarify because I'm mixing the scenarios up (my fault):

Doing it in two steps works. I.e. as you are describing. First seat, then crimp. (adjusting die body and plug before both steps to have only one operation occur). This is how I came to the conclusion that doing it with two dies would be a solution. (because resetting one combo die to isolate operations is a huge pain and also double the lever pulls)

Doing it in one step, I have not been able to get work. It always shaves lead right when (or right before) it gets to the right diameter to plunk and headspace on the case mouth. However, its so sensitive that I may try zeroing in on it again, maybe I missed the sweet spot. But, since I'm using mixed range brass that has varying case length..I do not have high hopes.

[woody1]

How does the lead shave if the bullet seater plug is all the way out ?

Was wondering that also. Is the boolit somehow being seated deeper while crimping?

[onelight]

If you seat and crimp in the same die on the same stroke of the press with mixed brass that is not all the same length and cast bullets you will have problems on auto pistol rounds. You can reduce the problems by inside chamfering the case mouth and eliminate the problems with a crimp die which may be a regular seating die with the seating stem backed off or a die like the Lee FCD which has no seating stem.
If you try to do it in one die with cases like described above you will scrape the bullet if die is set for the short ones and may not remove all the bell with short ones if it is set to work with the long ones .
Easy fix , crimp separate from seating.

[44MAG#1]

Occam's razor, Occam's razor

[mehavey]

Does -- or does not -- the Lee Pacesetter 45 ACP seating die have an independent seating stem ?

Is -- or it not -- the Lee Pacesetter 45 ACP seating die a simple taper-crimp (not FCD) die ?

[45-70 Chevroner]

it seats?

Actually I made a mistake on that. I forgot that I bought a Lee seater die a month ago then bought the Lee FCD.

[Soundguy]

Lee calls all 3 common crimp methods fcd. Ie.. I have taper crimp fcd and collect crimp fcd, etc.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Does -- or does not -- the Lee Pacesetter 45 ACP seating die have an independent seating stem ?

Is -- or it not -- the Lee Pacesetter 45 ACP seating die a simple taper-crimp (not FCD) die ?

Yes. That is right, Lee pacesetter dies for the 45 acp have a built in taper crimp in the seater die.

[mehavey]

So it's nothing more than normal seating die (no FCD internal collet).

If so.... (to set up for 1-step seating)

- Prep/flare case as normal (bullet freely enters about a dime's width)
- With die body unscrewed so as to not touch the case....
- Seat bullet to required OAL using only the seater stem
- Unscrew the seater stem
- With die body only, screw the body down gradually to get case mouth reduced to .471"
- Lock the die body *
- With seater stem only, screw stem down to meet bullet
- Lock the seater stem *

You can (99%) now seat/taper in 1-step.

* if the Lee has only those yucky rubber o-rings, put a dab of Red Passion (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Max-Factor-Glossfinity-Nail-Polish-110-Red-Passion-Brand-New-/232136464136) nail polish as registration mark on junction of ring & die threads. That way you can get the same setup every time even if things slip a bit when handling.

Remember... Red Passion [smilie=w:

[guy_with_boolits]

So it's nothing more than normal seating die (no FCD internal collet).

If so.... (to set up for 1-step seating)

- Prep/flare case as normal (bullet freely enters about a dime's width)
- With die body unscrewed so as to not touch the case....
- Seat bullet to required OAL using only the seater stem
- Unscrew the seater stem
- With die body only, screw the body down gradually to get case mouth reduced to .471"
- Lock the die body *
- With seater stem only, screw stem down to meet bullet
- Lock the seater stem *

You can (99%) now seat/taper in 1-step.

* if the Lee has only those yucky rubber o-rings, put a dab of Red Passion (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Max-Factor-Glossfinity-Nail-Polish-110-Red-Passion-Brand-New-/232136464136) nail polish as registration mark on junction of ring & die threads. That way you can get the same setup every time even if things slip a bit when handling.

Remember... Red Passion [smilie=w:

The problem I'm having with the above procedure is that although it does set the crimp correct, and the bullet depth correct, it does not prevent the crimp from occuring while the bullet is moving, thus shaving lead.

[guy_with_boolits]

If you seat and crimp in the same die on the same stroke of the press with mixed brass that is not all the same length and cast bullets you will have problems on auto pistol rounds. You can reduce the problems by inside chamfering the case mouth and eliminate the problems with a crimp die which may be a regular seating die with the seating stem backed off or a die like the Lee FCD which has no seating stem.
If you try to do it in one die with cases like described above you will scrape the bullet if die is set for the short ones and may not remove all the bell with short ones if it is set to work with the long ones .
Easy fix , crimp separate from seating.

this is exactly my current understanding of the situation and also matches the results I got adjusting the die...am I missing something here? What does Mehavey think I'm not doing?

[Soundguy]

Answer = 2 dies. 1 seat 1 crimp

[mehavey]

although it does set the crimp correct, and the bullet depth correct, it does not prevent the crimp from occuring while the bullet is moving,If the case is only going back to de-flared condition as the very end of the ram travel, it "shouldn't" even begin to shave lead off a .452" dia bullet.

Luckily, It appears my .452-sized bullets, whether PC'd/ALOX'd/or 50-50 lubed, my Starline brass, and my RCBS dies have no problem seating/de-flaring in a single step.

My suggestion if you are going to get a 2nd die, get the RCBS Taper/C Seater, .45 ACP/
You may find you may fortuitously be able to not only taper in 2nd step, but maybe now in 1-step.

[beshears]

Two Steps unless you have a crimp groove on the bullet which lets it work in one step. No crimp groove bullets need to be done in two steps.

[guy_with_boolits]

If the case is only going back to de-flared condition as the very end of the ram travel, it "shouldn't" even begin to shave lead off a .452" dia bullet.

Luckily, It appears my .452-sized bullets, whether PC'd/ALOX'd/or 50-50 lubed, my Starline brass, and my RCBS dies have no problem seating/de-flaring in a single step.

ya but you are using one type of brass so one length

I'm using range rando...variable length, variable crimp..as length increases the taper goes in further

But still..I will give it one more attempt to see if I can get it to work in one step, its worth a shot at the very least for the learning

I have the 2nd taper die on its way so might as well do some experiments until it gets here

[toallmy]

I don't really understand how your getting shaved lead after trying setting up the die as mehavey described , possibly tilted boolits when seating , or something else is going on .
I do most of my loading on a loadmaster also , I recently set it up for loading 380acp oversized cast boolits & had a similar problem . I found I had adjusted my powder through die down a little bit to far and it was touching the shell plate slightly . I was using my 9mm powder through die . Even though the loader was cycling around it was affecting
every other function . Progressive machines are tricky not just Lee's take another look at what is going on all the way around .
Remove all the dies except the seating die , set it up as mehavey described - then try seating a few cast boolits in cases that have a slight flair already , no primers or powder . You can knock them apart later to see what happens to the boolit . Or try a case that already has a flair with no boolit , powder or primer ran up full stroke in your adjusted seating die - how much of the flair is removed ?
I can't help but think there is something else going on that's causing , or part of the cause of the problem your having .

[mehavey]

I'm using range rando...variable length....Unfortunately, dramatically-different lengths RE never going to reliably
1-step w/o problems. Uniform flare is problematic too.

You might want to decide whether sorting brass within a gross length
range takes less time than seating/crimping twice.

[monadnock#5]

Very good suggestion. For a one step op, either trim your cases to length, or sort them by length. Otherwise you're stuck with the two step op. There are certain aspects of the process that refuse streamlining.

As a point of interest, if you were to try to seat and crimp a jacketed bullet in a press set up for the shortest cases in the lot, and then, without changing settings, do the same with the longest case in the lot, you would find that there is enough leverage in the system to buckle and ruin the case. A friend of a friend thought I should mention that.

[monadnock#5]

thats what the plan is for the "separate steps" strategy......and what I've tested using a single die by first unscrewing the body way out as you describe, then after the bullet has been seated, screwing the body way back in (and unscrewing the bullet plug) to remove the crimp..seems to work great.

This is the method that works for me. My .45ACP dies are RCBS carbide with taper crimp.

[David2011]

I’ve been much happier with my autoloader rounds since I decided to seat and crimp separately.

[tazman]

Unfortunately, dramatically-different lengths RE never going to reliably
1-step w/o problems. Uniform flare is problematic too.

You might want to decide whether sorting brass within a gross length
range takes less time than seating/crimping twice.

For me, using an auto index turret, seating and crimping in separate steps is a much faster option than sorting the brass by length or trimming all to the same length. I believe the OP is using either a turret or a progressive with enough holes in the turret to accommodate another die to seat separately.
Sorting/trimming takes a lot of time and extra machining and handling in order to achieve the same end. Possibly with better accuracy but still only a possibility.
I am certain that seating and crimping in separate steps works.

[Doubles Shooter]

I load on my .45'son a Dillon SDB. It has separate seat/crimp dies. I don't have to play around sorting/trimming brass. Just load and shoot. If there is room on the turret for two dies great. If not, there is not much choice.

[mehavey]

believe the OP is using either a turret or a progressive press
Load Master... .Just so........

[charlie b]

The OP has a Loadmaster. There are 5 die positions. It is designed so you can have a separate seat and crimp die setup.

Get a separate die. It is zero excess work in this case.

[Soundguy]

What I'm finding odd is that so many people seem to be finding (drastically ) different sized 45acp brass. I've NEVER ever.. ( never) trimmed 45 acp brass from any gun or carbine I've got, or range pickup.... and outside of 3rd or 4th decimal places differences.. I've never seen 'shorter / longer' cases really... ie.. every 45 case i've had.. and these hedspace on the mouth.. so length is important.. have always chamberd perfectly.
same with 9's I have been doing big batches of 9's the last 3 weeks.. probably come from 4 different guns me and my buddy shoots.. and from however many guns people at the range shot that day.....

I've just never had a problem with straight wall pistol growing ( or shrinking )... especially low pressure straightwall.. like 45acp.. I have cases where the headstamp is getting worn... Maybe I'm living right?

[guy_with_boolits]

yes all I have an extra die slot so splitting the op into two wont take any extra work

just want to say you are all helping me become much better at this..by examining this particular problem in excruciating detail I'm being forced to learn whats going on and why

If I had just kept loading plated RN 230gns I would probably have never even plunked loads...let alone fine tune seating/crimp, I probably would still be wondering if the die even had a crimp in it...

Its 100% evident that the single step operation was definitely causing plunk issues. The shaved lead was very obvious..you could practically surf on it.

BUT..I dont think the story is completely over. My loads are far better now as far as chambering, but they arent all plunking the same. I'm doing sharpie tests and trying to figure out whats going on, but I cant quite nail it. Will have to do more experiments today. I end up having to adjust the die in a little further for maybe 20 out of 100 to crimp. I suppose that could be the varying length..but does the length vary? I took 8 random cases and heres what I measure:

https://i.postimg.cc/Y9RM6Sqh/bl.jpg

And here for reference is what one of my "good" two-step loads look like before and after the crimp (boolit already seated)

https://i.postimg.cc/6qXpcbMZ/beforeaftertc.jpg

[tazman]

Here is a link to an article studying how 45ACP cases shorten as they are reloaded multiple times. It has some interesting info.
http://vintagepistols.com/massreloading/loading45ACP.html