Swaging Die Design -- Do I have this right?

[turbo1889]

Okay -- long story short. I like 410 slugs and am like addicted to them and have a personal ongoing quest for the last few years to develop the ultimate 410 slug load. As of current this is where my current slug development has led me:

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/turbo1889/2008-12-22_055938_410_Slug_Prototype_10_Large.JPG

Left Side is the best factory slug load for the 410 available -- Brenneke attached base wad 110 grain-ish rifled. The other two are my prototypes in 1/2oz. and 11/16oz. weights. 1/2oz. works good and can be pushed to 1,500-fps out of a 3" hull while still staying within safe pressure limits making it a heck of a load but the 11/16oz. turned out to print nothing but key-holes out of a smooth bore. These are the penetrator versions -- Hardball alloy about 16-BHN will punch straight through and are fully capable of crushing bone. That design application has not yet been fully completed due to the fact that I'm waiting for a custom cut mold to arrive -- lead heads for initial test prototypes were made with a much slower process.

So while I'm waiting for the mold to get done I've been exploring the next stage a soft lead swaged head with rifling for applications where expansion is desired. The only practical way to produce such a head is via swaging rather then casting. So I'm going to try to get one of the machinist students at the local community college to make a project out of it. This is my basic design principle so far -- haven’t sat down and actual starting doing dimensioning of the components yet but I need some heads up on whether I've got the idea right or not. Basically the head is modeled after the Brenneke only with straight rifling. The bottom of the slug is flared so that when the plastic tail unit is inserted along with a drop of glue and the whole unit popped through a Lee 0.411" sizing die it will basically flatten out the flair and in the process crimp the slug head onto the tail. Intended alloy is pure lead or soft alloy not of 30:1 or less.

So anyway enough blabber, here are the drawings:

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/turbo1889/2008-12-22_061653_410_Slug_From_Custom_Swagging_Die.JPG

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/turbo1889/2008-12-22_061707_410_Slug_Custom_Swagging_Die.JPG

Thoughts? Pointers? Voices of experience?

[deltaenterprizes]

Nice drawings but rifling a slug does nothing but look impressive. With a bullet the rifling is engraved onto the bullet,that is why they make rifled shotgun barrels. If rifled slugs worked there would be no need for them. A rifled choke works well also.

[turbo1889]

Nice drawings but rifling a slug does nothing but look impressive. With a bullet the rifling is engraved onto the bullet,that is why they make rifled shotgun barrels. If rifled slugs worked there would be no need for them. A rifled choke works well also.

Yes, I am well aware of the fact that engraving rifling into a slug does not make it spin in flight -- this is why I simplified the design by using straight rifling instead. This rifling does, however, serve a very important purpose which is far more important then looking impressive, in that it allows a solid slug be made full bore diameter for maximum accuracy and still be safely fired in a choked gun because the thin rifling ridges just flatten out with the slug hits the choke when used in a choked gun. Longitudinal rifling serves this purpose better then lead body bands and works with swaging while body bands work with molding. My hard lead noses use a plastic forward ring to perform the same function and the hard cast lead heads are only 0.370"-0.375" diameter to clear even the tightest chokes without damage.

[Buckshot]

.............turbo1889, nice drawings. That's basicly it. I would think about altering the base punch shape a bit, taking into consideraton the amount of displaced lead to be formed by the skirt compression when attaching to the wad. Of course that assumes you didn't show it in the drawing for simplicities sake?

...............Buckshot

[badgeredd]

turbo1889,

Neat project!!!!! I am curious about the 1/2 oz. slug. I was thinking that a half ounce at 1500 fps would be pretty close to a 41 mag energy levels, actually a bit more. I've never been very fond of slugs and shot guns but this definitely intrigues me.

Could you share some more info and accuracy data? Just curious about it.

Thanks,

Edd

[BrentD]

I hope your .410s are hell for stout!

Brent

[MIBULLETS]

Looks good to me. I have always heard of people saying that the 410 slugs just are not big enough for deer, but it looks like your soft lead one in enough weight would be awesome for that purpose. The die design looks pretty standard so I don't see why it wouldn't work. Do you plan to run them through a sizer or something to crimp your base wad on? Do you plan to make the wads too or are you buying them?

[MIBULLETS]

One more thought. It looks like your external punch is made for a reloading press? It may take a fair amount of pressure to form the rifling or fins on the slug. Just make sure the press can take it.

[Heavy lead]

Would not this be the cat's meow for a 9410 or the 336 410 lever gun?

[badgeredd]

Would not this be the cat's meow for a 9410 or the 336 410 lever gun?

I think it could be a pretty neat thing in our government mandated limited firearm area. BTW, did you know Indiana now allows rifles that use certain specified handgun cartridges? On the list is 454 Casull. Definite a thumper out of any gun, but out of a rifle it has to approach a 30-30 for energy, maybe surpase it!

Edd

[turbo1889]

Update:

Well as I stated earlier in the thread, I originally was going to have the custom swag die made by a local trade school machine shop. I drew up semi-professional looking blue-prints accordingly complete with final dimensions, tolerances, and specified materials. They were taylored towards what one would expect for a trade school student - construction was bulky and simple with tolerances as generous as possible, and only holding them tight where it was an absolute necessity with no extra frills. This fell through, however, when the admin department of the community college got wind of the project, and absolutely forbid any project remotely connected to guns or weapons to be done in their machine shop.

Figured I'd post what I came up with here and hope someone can direct me to a private machinist with both a lathe and mill set up or precision drill press and jig set up. Have been making commercial inquiries with out fits such as CH/4D but so far comming up a little short for actually getting it made. Anyway enough blabber here are the prints in reduced resolution:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=717

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=718

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=719

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=720

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=721

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=722

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=723

[deltaenterprizes]

How much money do you expect to pay for this?

[Sixgun Symphony]

I would call around the local gunsmiths to see if one will take the job.

[deltaenterprizes]

Gunsmiths are not machinists! Some machinists are gunsmiths.

[turbo1889]

How much money do you expect to pay for this?

Well let’s put it this way:

- - - Standard CH/4D 105 Swag Die = $71.71
- - - Standard CH/4D 101 Swag 2 Die Sets = $129.11
- - - Custom CH/4D 101 Swag Dies = $215.19
- - - Standard Corbin "R"-Series 2 Die Swag Sets = $447.00
- - - Custom Corbin "R"-Series 2 Die Swag Sets = ???

Obviously community college trade school machinist need projects in order to complete their classes and graduate, not all of these projects are mundane book assigned projects some are "figure it out yourself" and "good project + good work = good grade" type assignments. Thus getting it done that way would have been very economical. Basically materials cost plus a little for time and labor, would have probably made out at less than a Ben Franklin -- but of course the workmanship was a gamble. Turn around wasn't bad either - school projects have deadlines that must be met.

For getting it done commercially by a corporation I’d be lucky to pull less than a grand for cost especially if you run into a situation where using precision drilling to form the micro rifling portion of the die is not something they are willing to do as was originally planned and they want to use a much more expensive method that involves having a custom cutter made up before you even get to the custom die cutting part. With a private machinist who has the necessary equipment and skill, and is willing to use precision drilling to form the rifling portion I think I might be able to get away with a custom built die at about the price of Corbin "R"-Series set. Of course the more economical the better, but I do want it pretty bad.

[deltaenterprizes]

A low ball price for a compent machine shop is at least $40/hr, each number to the right of the decimal point increases the time need to make the part. Factories are tooled up to do repeat operations that cuts down on set up time, your estimate is about half what a commercial shop would charge considering a decent machinist is paid $25/hr and the owner gharges at least 3 times that. I would like to look at better copies of your drawings.

[dakotashooter2]

This fell through, however, when the admin department of the community college got wind of the project, and absolutely forbid any project remotely connected to guns or weapons to be done in their machine shop.

Weapons??? What weapons?? That is tooling for a solid fuel propulsion system!!!! ;-)

[StarMetal]

Have you thought of Buckshot making them? I believe he's very capable.

Joe

[shooterg]

I'm still in shock that the Community College in MONTANA has that attitude . Lotsa "propulsion system" parts made at our local community college shop. Helped that the head man collected old Colts and the second guy shot high power !

[scrapcan]

Hell, he is lucky in Montana as our local community college welding/fabrication/machine tool program was scrapped and rebuilt into an excercise facility. Same goes for the indoor shooting range that once had a great program for college students.

[deltaenterprizes]

My machine shop teacher built rifles and made and installed muzzle brakes during class. He is the one that taught me how to headspace a bolt action in school during class!
I drilled and tapped the action for a scope base there and drilled and tapped a black powder rifle for a red dot scope there too!

[turbo1889]

I'm still in shock that the Community College in MONTANA has that attitude . Lotsa "propulsion system" parts made at our local community college shop. Helped that the head man collected old Colts and the second guy shot high power !

College president is a liberal b*tch from the Left Coast who has filled the admin department with her cronies. Professors/Instructors in the Trades Department, Math Department, Science Department, and Business Skills Department generally don't like her and butt heads with her. Language, Literature, and Art Departments generally like her. Basically all the people involved in the worth while stuff that you can actually make a living with vs. the junk no average person is going to make a living at. Guys in the Trade Department didn't have a problem with it at all and eveything would have probably gone fine if the admin department hadn't got wind of it.

[bohica2xo]

Turbo:

Your first design with the "fingers" on the insert will have a life measured in single digts of slugs.

Your second design has what appear to be .0625 holes, drilled about 10 diameters deep? Good luck with that.

The finish within a straight die is critical, especially when it comes to ejecting the finished part.

I would strongly recomend that you design the splined area within your die to include a slight taper, and seek a qualified wire EDM shop to form that section of the die.

Swaging the finished part around a feature on the base wad is a good plan, if you want that part to carry all the way to the target. A screw will work too, just be sure to swage the proper core hole in the slug while forming it.

B.

[turbo1889]

bohica2xo, I appreciate the input. You are absolutely correct about my first design with the "fingers" to form the rifling grooves. That is why I abandonded that and started trying to figure out how to do it in one peice of metal. The drilling a pattern of small holes first and then drilling the big center hole method does work but it does make for a pretty rough cut that doesn't hold tolerance to bore size. I believe this is what you were trying to say about the depth of drill hole compared to the diameter. I did some research on the wire EDM manufacturing method and I agree that it probably would be an excellent way to make this part. I have, however, through this forum made contact with a machinist who says he can do it by cutting the Major and Minor bores first and then using some sort of jib and a 1/16" square broach to cut the rifling grooves. Looks like he has got it and the final particulars including initial down-payment for the work is in progress.

[turbo1889]

Update #2:

Through my corospondence back and forth with a machinist who is willing to build the die and cut the rifling part via. a method I hadn't though of several changes have been made to the die design. Thought I'd post the updated prints here, also bigger type fonts -- He didn't like my little itty bitty stuff one little bit. Can't say I blame him it was pretty small.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=745

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=746

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=747

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=748

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=749

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=750

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=751

[turbo1889]

Update #3:

The exact specifications of the die have changed slightly during machining but the slug profile it is designed to produce has remained the same. The die is a hair width from being fully complete with just the other three swage punch tips left to finish. Initial testing done with 5/16 lead wire has produced some very nice test slugs.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=809

[scrapcan]

Looks like you are comin along just fine in the die build. Now we get to see the real results in how it shoots.

How was the price on the project? Is he interested in making regular swage dies for jacketed bullets?

[turbo1889]

How was the price on the project? Is he interested in making regular swage dies for jacketed bullets?

As far as price goes, I'm not releasing the exact figure, but my original estimate for a private machinist was about what I ended up paying:


Well let’s put it this way:

- - - Standard CH/4D 105 Swag Die = $71.71
- - - Standard CH/4D 101 Swag 2 Die Sets = $129.11
- - - Custom CH/4D 101 Swag Dies = $215.19
- - - Standard Corbin "R"-Series 2 Die Swag Sets = $447.00
- - - Custom Corbin "R"-Series 2 Die Swag Sets = ???

. . . With a private machinist who has the necessary equipment and skill, . . . I think I might be able to get away with a custom built die at about the price of Corbin "R"-Series set. . .

Considering tha amount of work he has put into the project, I think I'm getting a very good deal. He has stated that he has no intentions of becoming a swaging die maker in general, but will consider small machining projects in general for person to person transaction on a case by case basis. For those who are willing to pay what it takes and not just looking for a cheap cop out price. That's putting a few words in his mouth on my part and is a pretty rough paraphrase - but I think it gets the point across he wants to make. He had done right by me so far but it is also true I think that the project ended up being more time intensive they he figured.

[turbo1889]

Well initial test slugs made with punch #1 the lightest of the slugs showed up. The initial samples weighed in at between 140 & 150 grains so they are heavier than any factory 410 slug and as I said they are the lightest ones to be produced by the swage die. Only five of them but I loaded them up and put them through their paces -- looking good !

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=870

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=872

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=874

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=875

[turbo1889]

Then it was off to the woods to test them in a live fire situation. First I made up a target beefy enough to capture the slugs and test their toughness and terminal performance. Didn't quite have enough newspaper to fill the whole box so I used a box of damp dirt without rocks to fill up the last third or so. The paper plate stapled to the front had a "+" marked on it with a black permanent marker for an aiming point:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=885

Then I set it up my target box fifty plus yards down range (it's the white spec in the distance) on a kelly-humped forest service road with a nice hill in the background for a back stop and set up a shooting rest on the kelly-hump:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=886

Only had five loads total so I fired the first two with just the thread protector nut on my Saiga-410 to test accuracy and performance from a true cylinder bore:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=888

Then I put on the full choke constrictor and fired my remaining three loads:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=889

Not too bad, for this gun and this range. Better than Winchester and Federal factory loads. Equal to Remington and Gold/Silver Bear factory loads. Not as good as Brenneke factory loads. As you can see cylinder bore vs. full choke makes a difference in point of impact with this gun. Cylinder bore hits just slightly to the right and with the choke constrictor on hits slightly left. This is a known issue with this gun it does the same thing with factory loads. There is quite a bit of vertical stringing evident. I believe this is due to two factors, first the test slugs did vary in both weight and fill out which made them less than uniform compared to each other -- practice, and using cast cores instead of trying to cut lead wire to exactly the same length to get the same weight, I believe will make for more uniform slugs produced from the swage die. Secondly the load used was a light load well below maximum pressure and thus powder burn might have been lest than ideal. I believe this is strongly evidenced by the fact that the heaviest slug hit the highest. There was one slug that was like 8 grains heavier then all the rest -- it had the highest impact point. This is exactly the opposite of what one would normally think until one takes into consideration that a heavier slug makes for more chamber pressure with the same powder charge and wad column and thus better powder burn.

And of course operator error also needs to be taken into account as well -- it's hard to concentrate on making nice steady shots that will be meaningful for test data when your being eaten alive by a swarm of mosquitoes !

[BT Sniper]

Great job. I'm going to have to read the thread all over again. Nice job posting all the pics and plans. Glad to see the results were positive. 50 yrds in a pole thicket was good shooting. I would have been happy with the results. I fired my first custom made bullets from only ten feet or so and probably would have missed that 50 yrd target all together.

So what does the recover bullet look like?

[NoZombies]

That's a nice looking slug!

I'm curious about the recovered projectiles as well. Will you be sharing photos?

[turbo1889]

Upon Dissecting the target box I found that the heaviest slug that had hit the highest had just passed an inch or so above the packing material intended to test the slugs terminal performance and continued on it's way down range. Thus only four of the five slugs were recovered:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=887

The slug that penetrated the furthest traveled through the entire length of the first bunk of wet newspaper and penetrated a few layers deep into the second bunk. It expanded to approximately 0.7" and was the deepest penetrator. The slug held together and weight retention was almost 100% loosing only a few grains weight:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=890

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=891

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=892

One of the three slugs that were found inside the first bunk of wet newspaper broke up into two pieces, an outer ring and an inner core. It's penetration was the least of all four slugs but it still passed through almost the entirety of the first bunk of wet news-paper. Weight retention was aprox. 96% for that slug -- there were a few grains missing. Assumably there were a few lead fragments along the wound channel. I only weighed the two large chunks and didn't search the wound channel for any small fragments:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=893

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=895

The other two slugs penetrated the entire length of the first bunk of wet newspaper and were found logged on the inside of the last layer of newspaper on the stack. Due to the fact that these two slugs bulged that last layer of newspaper out on the back side but did not punch through it is theorized that the plastic bags I wrapped the bunks in acted like a stretchy tough membrane and they just didn't have enough energy left to punch through. It was kind of like finding your bullet just under the hide on the opposite side of a deer. Both of these slugs held together and expanded to aprox 0.8" and weight retention like the one that expanded slightly less and penetrated slightly deeper was nearly 100%. Sorry about the picture quality on these last three photos the digital camera was blinking low battery by the time these photos were taken and thus their quality is extremely diminished:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=896

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=897

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=898

[turbo1889]

After I packed up and returned home, I got a few close up shots of the recovered slugs with fresh batteries in the camera:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=899

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=900

[scrapcan]

nice going. I think you are on a good path with your project. Thanks for sharing. And thanks for relaying the machinists viewpoint. I have an old SAS press that needs a set of dies and will send you a pm.

[NoZombies]

That looks like pretty good expansion! the 3 that stayed together kinda look to me like they're thinking about separating, but it's hard to tell from photos. what's your impression of the integrity of the slugs?

[deltaenterprizes]

Thanks for posting your progress and posting pics of the progress!

[bohica2xo]

Turbo:

Congratulations on a sucessful die - both design & execution.

I would have used a wire, but the broach is just fine if you take your time. Same result, just different paths.

The slugs seem to perform well. What sort of load development are you using? I recall the .410 being a bit touchy with some powders... 4756 led to blown primers on a warm afternoon.

Nice job.

B.

[turbo1889]

As for the slugs structural integrity -- yes push those up to a maximum load and they would all break up and not hold together when punching through a tough target. That is the whole idea of swage punch #2 versus the #1 punch these slugs were made with. The shallower hollow base doesn't add much more weight only a mere 15-20 grains but it increases the structural integrity of the nose of the slug by over 50% for more penetration, less expansion, and an altogether tougher slug. And of course the solid #3 & #4 slugs should be tougher still.

Now as far as the load, that was 20.0gr. of Lil-Gun on those loads. A charge, which actually makes for a medium strength load with this weight of slug and wad-column set up. I've take the powder charge with that particular powder significantly hotter while shooting 1/4oz. solid WW-alloy 0.412" diameter round ball slugs with a similar wad column set-up. Now you can make so real scorcher loads if you use a heavy charge of Reloader-7 and still stay within pressure limits. Those 1/4oz. factory slugs at 1,800 fps. don't hold a prayer up against one of those R-7 hand loads. You can make a significantly heavier slug go down range a little faster !!!! Loud as heck though with a lot of muzzle flash; a lot of the powder is still burning when the slug leaves the muzzle.

[turbo1889]

Now that it quit raining and the sun finally came out I laid out the bunks of wet newspaper to dry in the sun so that they could be used for fire starter during the winter (waste not - want not, that was a lot of newspaper). After being fully disassembled and laid out the hydraulic shock damage is clearly evident in the test medium. The holes punched through are larger then the max expanded diameter of the slugs and the hydraulic shock wave cone is also clearly viewable. So I though I'd post a few pictures. Here is the first bunk all laid out with the upper left being the back of the bunk and the lower right being the front of the bunk (started disassembling the bunk from the back and laid it out just like a person writes from left to right and top to bottom. The forward bunk is laid out above on the roof:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=922

This is a close up of the shock cavity damage at about 1+ inches deep:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=923

And this is at about 2+ inches deep, from there the wound channel started to decrease in size:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=924


Also, forgot to mention this earlier. The bunks of wet newspaper were 6 inches thick -- that's my standard thickness when I do these type of tests. Usually most pistol rounds (with a few notable exceptions like the 7.62x25) will only penetrate the first bunk. Rifle and slug (larger gauges) round usually end up in at least the second or further bunk. Long story short this slug out of a 410-bore holds its own as far as penetration and wound channel with most pistol rounds I've ever tested. Looks similar to a medium/heavy, but not totally maxed out, 44-mag soft lead nose (two alloy cast) cast bullet designed to mushroom, wound channel to me. That's the closest pistol load I've tested so far, except for maybe those 45-Colt SWC loads but they didn't go as deep. McBirch on his web-site reviews/tests (http://mcb-homis.com/) was getting the same penetration depth with the best penetrating factory slug load, the Brenneke, in bunks of wet paper. Long story short looks like the lightest slug produced by this swage die in a load that's not maxed out can hold it's own with the best performing factory load available. I'm hoping for performance above and beyond this with the heavier weight slugs especially the solid ones from this die when loaded to max.

[windrider919]

In you first pictures and drawings you show a 'finned' base wad. It looked pretty neat. And you were planning to attach it by swaging the lead head into it. So, what happened to the finned base? Where did they come from anyway? So later when I saw your picture with the bullet and the conventional card and felt wads I thought that the lead bullet alone was not going to be that accurate. My understanding is that a shotgun slug flies best if it has a 'dart' effect. A heavy nose and a lighter aerodynamic drag inducing tail. If it was me I would go back to having something like you first envisioned. Even the Brenke has that plastic drag skirt on it. But even without your slugs did amazing. Remember, wet newspaper is about 4 times harder than flesh. And based on your penetration and hydrostatic wound channel any one would have taken down a whitetail. In fact, based on my newspaper practice and real world hunting I would say that your slugs would completely penetrate a deer sideways. So I think you should "fin-ish" your slugs and try again.

[turbo1889]

Yes, the fins are going to be attached to a solid slug head. Once I get the die in my own possession including all four punches the finned slugs are going to be constructed and tested. A full report will be posted. At this time the fins are being custom cut one at a time on a rapid prototype machine from plastic stock. Thus their numbers are few - what fins I have left from the last batch are being saved until I have good heads to go with them. They are indeed the ultimate end of this project. Over the course of over three years of experimenting with 410 slugs I have come to the conclusion that a 1/2oz. slug for a 3"-mag 410 load with a muzzle velocity of at least a 1,500-fps represents the ultimate fire-power capable of being delivered from a stock 410 gun. A solid head from this swage die with the plastic fin attached to the base will hopefully be the ultimate realization of that potential. I'm working on it and that is the ultimate goal -- I just figured that not everyone is interested in that particular set up and a swage die with multiple punches can produce a variety of different slug styles from the same die so why not make it as versatile as possible?

Updates will continue to be posted in this thread as I test each variation possible to produce with the die. It has been fully completed including all four punches (previously only punch #1 had been completed) by the machinist and I should be punching them out myself shortly. :drinks: :Fire:

The first order of business once I receive the die and start swaging them myself is to punch out a hundred each or so of the #1's and #2's for the first shipment to McBirch. Then I will proceed to testing the #3 and #4 style followed by a second shipping of those style to McBirch if all goes well in my tests. He is the one by the way who machined the finned tails for me.

[barryjyoung]

[QUOTE=turbo1889;555029]

Obviously community college trade school machinist need projects in order to complete their classes and graduate, not all of these projects are mundane book assigned projects some are "figure it out yourself" and "good project + good work = good grade" type assignments. Thus getting it done that way would have been very economical. Basically materials cost plus a little for time and labor, would have probably made out at less than a Ben Franklin -- but of course the workmanship was a gamble. Turn around wasn't bad either - school projects have deadlines that must be met.
[QUOTE]


This is why we have a non-stop parade of people dragging in their "terrific project for your students" . Because of just such uninformed nonsense. We do not assign "mundane book assigned projects". The project assignments our students are given have been designed to expose them to as many manufacturing techniques as possible. It has taken more than 20 years to fine tune our projects to make the education of the student broad and deep. The last thing I want to see is a Machine Technology student waste his or her valuable time putzing with some lame project that walks in off the street just so some body can "make out at less than a Ben Franklin". It is amazing to me that you would not want to make a generous donation to your community college for doing you a favor instead of bragging about how you took advantage of them. As to workmanship, we hold our students to a much higher standard than they will be required to work to in industry. We are teaching craftsmanship, not how to make shoddy junk.

And people wonder why we don't take on outside projects. This is precisely why.

Barry Young
Machinist Instructor

[Sixgun Symphony]

College president is a liberal b*tch from the Left Coast who has filled the admin department with her cronies. Professors/Instructors in the Trades Department, Math Department, Science Department, and Business Skills Department generally don't like her and butt heads with her. Language, Literature, and Art Departments generally like her. Basically all the people involved in the worth while stuff that you can actually make a living with vs. the junk no average person is going to make a living at. Guys in the Trade Department didn't have a problem with it at all and eveything would have probably gone fine if the admin department hadn't got wind of it.

I guess it will be a long time, if ever, before they start a gunsmithing program. :(

[turbo1889]

Must have hit a tender spot with you, barryjyoung. Well first off I do not deny that I am a little on the cheap side -- I've got a limited budget and lots of projects. I don't apologize for that but I don't deny it either.

In my defense:

- As far as "mundane book assigned projects" I'm absolutely sure that from an instructors point of view no project assigned would ever fall into such a category. From a students point of view - - - - - I think you get the drift. Several of the classes I took were also classes some of the tech guys took. Got to know a few of them and can definitely say that some assigned projects were looked at as such. Do I know for a fact that they did get assignments that involved projects of their own choosing at times including some outside projects? Yes. Did they prefer them? - mixed feelings is generally what I saw, some loved it, others found such assignment stressful and annoying – I gather you would fall into the latter category. Sounds like in your program everything is lined out, and as you say you've had 20-years to build that program. Does this mean that all such programs are run like yours – from what I have seen locally, I don’t think so, but then it’s not like I’ve never been wrong.

- Have I had any other project completed in this manner before, or has anyone else? Yes, for example one of the earliest projects was an engine part that was no longer made. I paid for all materials plus some cash for the student who did it for me, and the student did get academic credit for it. As far as I know he didn't think I was jipping him, we are still friendly acquaintances, though distant (no longer both in school together). If he had a problem with it, I have no doubt he would let me know in no uncertain terms, he is with verbal words how you seem to be with written words - to the point. I know of at least one other project that someone else got done in a similar manner, and no it wasn't my friend who did that one too. Seems you guys don't do projects from outside and you are happy about that policy.

- Expect the same or better quality of work from a student as from an experienced seasoned machinist? Not insulting students work in any way, but I don't follow on that one. Not saying they make junk - far from it, wouldn't have tried to get my project done that way if that's how I felt, but last I checked a seasoned and experienced individual in any trade or profession is expected to produce a quality of work above and beyond what is expected of a student.

- As I have previously stated, to my knowledge I haven’t taken advantage of someone; nor would I brag about such a thing. Just trying to get stuff done, and yes - your right - get it done cheaply. No one was forced to do any project I've had done at the college shop, I asked nicely. Have I been told I'm nuts on some projects - Yes. Did they do those ones - No. If it disturbs you that somewhere some students have been wasting their time "putzing" for me and may be doing so again for future non-firearm related projects, I'm sorry that it disturbs you but it won’t prevent me from continuing, my conscience is clean on the matter.



I have no hard feelings towards you, the title of this thread is indeed an open invitation for people to state their comments, opinions, and suggestions about my project. You have done so, and unlike some others do left no room for miscommunication. That is a trait I appreciate. I just thought I should state my position clearly, just as you have stated yours. Accusations left unanswered, can be interpreted as admission of wrong doing and a guilty conscience. I have done my best to both civil and clear and do admit they you have a point about me being cheap – I will pay full price when necessary but if I can find away around doing so while still being fair I will.

[barryjyoung]

Must have hit a tender spot with you, barryjyoung. Well first off I do not deny that I am a little on the cheap side -- .

Hey Turbo:

Yeah, pretty much had my ducks all in a row then wham! That really smarted. I over-reacted as I often do and went off. Sorry about that.

There is nothing at all wrong with being cheap. Surely you are no cheaper than I am. That would take serious dedication.

Your answer was so right in so many ways. Not every program is as well constructed as ours. Some probably do need projects to walk in off the street. Before my co-instuctor designed our current program that is all the students at our college did. They had no set of designed projects at all. Some schools still operate that way.

I forgot to tell you good job on the project this thread is about. Thanks for posting it.

Barry

[deltaenterprizes]

My class had set projects and would also take in some repair or custom projects. If a student felt he was capable and wanted the challenge it was allowed but there was no recource if things did not work out. Most students had enough of their own that they wanted to do after learning the basics that they were always kept busy beyond the regular course work and really did not have time to do outside work.
The benefit of repair projects that walk in the door is that like in a real shop it has to be done right the first time so you have to stop and think how to hold it with out damaging the part first since you are not using raw materials and if you screw up you just make another one.
This is how it is in a job shop and since most manufacturing is being done with CNC and overseas, mainly in China, the few machine shops left are doing repair work.
My boss always told me "They only come here when they can't buy a part and it costs too much to replace the machine!"
CNC work a monkey can do and now with parts feeders you don't need the monkey anymore! One programmer can handle 10 machines, and the computer can tell you the speeds and feeds and shows errors in the program.With CAD/CAM it takes the drawing and converts it to code for the CNC.
But try to do repair work on a CNC!

[barryjyoung]

When CNC machines were new the salesmen said things like "A monkey can run it". This sold many CNC machines to shop owners too busy to research the facts. In reality, the concepts required to understand how to program and run CNC machines are much more involved than conventional machines. Still these myths persist.

If the work is simple one programmer can handle 10 machines. If the work is complex keeping one going can be a challenge, especially with the current practice of short runs. The computer does not tell you the speeds and feeds. these come from parameters set by the programmer. Using Vericut software potential crashes can be identified, this you got right. That does not mean it is easy.

CAD and CAM applications do not take a drawing and convert it to EIA code that the machine understands without a lot of intense interaction between the programmer and the initial dataset submitted by the customer.

I have personally done a lot of repair work on CNC machines. CNC machines are the very best at doing conventional machine work. The only reason shops even have conventional machines any more at all is because they are cheap. A 5 axis CNC milling machine can do anything a Bridgeport can do, the opposite is not true.

I do not know why people continue to support these myths. The only thing I can come up with is that they do not know how to use CNC equipment so they compensate in this way. Is there another reason?

Barry





CNC work a monkey can do and now with parts feeders you don't need the monkey anymore! One programmer can handle 10 machines, and the computer can tell you the speeds and feeds and shows errors in the program.With CAD/CAM it takes the drawing and converts it to code for the CNC.
But try to do repair work on a CNC!

[deltaenterprizes]

My friend I worked for a couple of years has his wife and higk school kid running his machines like I did.
Put in a blank,push a button, take out finished part, repeat,repeat .....................................
Boring.

[barryjyoung]

My friend I worked for a couple of years has his wife and higk school kid running his machines like I did.
Put in a blank,push a button, take out finished part, repeat,repeat .....................................
Boring.

Oh, OK. Thank you. Now I understand.

Barry

[turbo1889]

In Possession of Finished Swage Die:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=964

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=965

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=966

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=967

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=972

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=968

[turbo1889]

Initial Test Slugs Swaged / How to Use Die, Learning Curve Completed:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=969

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=970


Pictures above, slugs produced by #1 through #4 punches from left to right respectively.

I swaged up a dozen or so of each style using some pure lead 32-cal balls I had a bunch of and no longer had the BP Cap & Ball revolver to shoot them with. The only problem I ran into with doing this was that using several of those balls to make a slug results in a slug that has weak points where it can fracture because the separate metal balls don't fully mix with each other in the swaging process. I dug up a 158gr. 357-cal SWC mold I had and cast a couple dozen with pure lead and then went back to swaging using those as my plugs for making the #2 style slugs - worked great and made some tough good slugs with only a very slight week point where the lube grooves were.

So long story short I didn't get several hundred done like I was originally planning to use up all those 32-cal balls but I have figured out exactly what method I need to use to produce good slugs from the die, namely pre-cast to a specific weight pure lead cores.

My initial experimentation allowed me to figure out the exact target weights of the different slug styles produced by the various punches, the initial attempts using the balls worked just fine for figuring that out. I was able to make a slightly shorter version of the #1 slug that came out just right at about 125gr. to 130gr. A full length #2 slug worked out at a little more than 160gr. and the #3 & #4 styles come out at 180gr. of lead plus the weight of the screw and the respective tails. So I ordered three different Lee molds, a 6-cavity TL356-124-2R mold, a 6-cavity TL358-158-SWC mold, and a 6-cavity TL401-175-SWC mold. These molds when cast with pure lead should make cores that are perfect for the #1, #2, and #3 & #4 styles respectively. And when I cast with WW they should give me some very nice pistol bullets for 9mm, 38-spl & .357-mag, and 10mm respectively. I already have molds for those but these would be different styles. All of the molds I intend to use for cores were deliberately chosen because they are Lee tumble lube style with gentle ripples in the side instead of deep lube grooves which should make for the best fill out without any weak points where fracture can occur under the stress of impact when swaged into slugs.

The slugs in the picture above were made from cut and trimmed to exact weight 5/16 lead wire. That took a lot of time and waste to get plugs of one continuous piece of lead from lead wire - did it for the photo and for a batch of test slugs but don't want to do it forever. I can hardly wait for the molds to get here so I can get into mass production mode !!!! :drinks:




First #3 and #4 Slugs Assembled:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=134&pictureid=971

I assembled one each of the #3 and #4 solid head slugs. Both weigh just a tiny smidgen under a full 1/2-oz. Now these should pack a heck of a lot of knockdown compared to regular factory slugs. I'm hoping for at least 50% more penetration with those in wet newspaper compared to my initial tests.

[turbo1889]

Semi-Mass Production begins:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=182&pictureid=1104

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=182&pictureid=1105

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=182&pictureid=1106

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=182&pictureid=1108

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=182&pictureid=1107

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=182&pictureid=1109


Did up several hundred 170 grain ones (approx 3/8-oz.) using the #2 plug and castings made from my 358-cal 158gr. SWC mold. Cast using pure lead of course and the plugs came out at a measured weight of just at or a little over the 170gr. mark. My Lee six banger molds I ordered for this purpose still haven’t shown up (probably the last time I order from the Lee factory direct online store) so the only good plug mold I have right now is that one. This is why I have just been making these #2 foster style slugs up in mass production mode and not the other sizes too.

Effort required to swage them with complete fill out and apply enough pressure so that the excess lead starts to squirt back down around the swage punch in very thin fins is about the same as it takes to full length resize 375-H&H brass in my Lee Classic Cast Single Stage Press. I set the die up so that the press ram stop was just a teensy bit more than the full fill out point for the lightest cores (cores varied a few grains) and thus when I push it all the way to the press arm stop point and then trim the little bit of fining on the bases with a pen knife I end up with slugs that are very consistently within a grain or less for weight variance - very nice and precise !!!

So I used up the first hundred batch fooling around with various methods of loading the slugs. So far I have developed the following two methods with good results:

1 - ''Remington'' Load Method:

Take a 2-1/2" hull. Put in a standard 1/2-oz shot load powder charge from a book load. Take a standard shot load plastic wad and snip off the front half of the petals. Fill up the empty space with just enough shot buffer and then load the slug and crimp.

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/turbo1889/2009-07-19_115013_410_3'8-oz_Slug_''Remington''_Load_Method.GIF

Seems to work fine - that extra buffer seems to bring the pressure of the load up to 1/2-oz. payload levels even though it's only a 3/8-oz. slug. Not the most powerful load but pretty quick and easy to make without having to use up nitro and felt wads (scarce or special order items usually).

2 - "Nitro & Waxed Felt'' Load Method:

Take either a 2-1/2" or 3" hull. Put in a stout powder charge of about 150% (maximum worked up to from about 120% start point) of what the average book load is for shot load of a powder that is commonly used to load 410 shot loads (Lil-Gun, 2400, etc). Cap off the powder charge with off with a gas seal made from a 410 plastic shot wad with the petals cut off, followed by a single 1/8 nitro card. For a 2-1/2" load this is followed by a 1/4" waxed felt wad (cut a 1/2" one in half with a razor). For a 3" load a 1/4" and 1/2" waxed felt wad are used. One more 1/8 nitro card is pressed into place over the felt and then the slug is flipped upside down and the hollow base filled up like a cup to slightly heaping with shot buffer the hull is then held upside down and the slug with it's base filled up with buffer pushed up into the hull with finger pressure until tight. The whole thing is then put back right side up and the whole load compressed with a pencil with the erasure side down on the slug nose with firm double hand pressure and then crimped.

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/turbo1889/2009-07-19_115108_410_3'8-oz_Slug_2-1'2_Shell_''Nitro___Waxed_Felt''_Load_Method.GIF
http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/turbo1889/2009-07-19_115042_410_3'8-oz_Slug_3-Mag_''Nitro___Waxed_Felt''_Load_Method.GIF

These are the most powerful loads I have been able to build to date with these slugs. The plastic gas seal so set up takes up only about 1/8" of wad column height and is effective. The two nitro cards stiffen up the load in key areas of the wad column and the waxed felt wads serve three purposes. They are a very effective secondary gas seal, they serve as a crush section in the wad column allowing for slightly more powder in the load without increasing pressures compared to a completely nitro card wad column, and last but not least they lube the barrel for the next slug and keep leading and fouling down to a minimum. Filling the slug base with a heaping amount of shot buffer keeps the wad column from sticking to the slug and coming loose at random down range distances causing horizontal stringing - a problem I encountered in my first few loadings.

As you can probably see in the photos, I made up some slugs that have had their hollow base filled up with hot glue. I have not tried loads using them yet. The basic idea is to eliminate the whole upside down insertion of the slug involved with the buffer fill method and also to hopefully hold the slug together better on impact making for deeper penetration and better mass conservation on impact. A very small pinch of buffer is still going to be necessary before inserting the slug to make about a millimeter thick layer of buffer between the bottom of the slug and the nitro card underneath it but the whole upside down acrobat step is eliminated.

I do believe that an even more powerful loading is possible if I use a charge of Reloader-7 powder as the propellant which could possibly allow me to drive these 3/8-oz foster style slugs all the way up to a muzzle velocity in the 1,700~1,800-fps range while still staying with safe pressure levels. After I finish my testing with the hot glue filled base method that is the next thing I intend to start working on.

[deltaenterprizes]

Fantastic article! I was wondering if you ever got anywhere with your project.

[scrapcan]

well done, now the fun begins for you. Would swaged cores help in your project? I still owe a PIF and could put some 326, 355, 430, 45 cal swaged uniform cores of your weight choice in a bag and send them out. I have several top and base punches for corbin lswc type dies that will make a core that might work for you. If interested send a pm.

[chrismetallica1]

Very nice setup. If you dont mind me askign how much did this cost you to get made? I live in the UK and shoot .410 slug . However slug rounds cost a small fortune and Im yet to find anyone who makes a mould for them. I think sawging them is probably the best option.

[turbo1889]

Don't worry - I am well aware of the plight of my fellows across the pond who unlike my ancestors theirs didn't rise up against the king and his cronies when they had the chance. I am aware that the aristocrats are still up to their old tricks and trying to disarm the peasant population.

Once I get done revising the Blue-Prints for the swage die so that they show it "as cut" rather than originally designed (as cut is proven to work). I intend to send a copy to the fourten.org.uk message board for public posting in downloadable format. Then you guys over there will just need to find a machinist of capable skill and have your own dies made up and you can engage in that ultra dangerous and hazardous to public safety underground munitions manufacturing problem all you want.

Heck I might even make the bottom rung of some obscure list in the MI-6 files for my trouble. Something I would consider an honor, if it's for providing "Treacherous & Revolutionary" information and know-how to her majesties subjects.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=182&pictureid=1126







In all seriousness - I do intend to post my updated Blue Prints on a few UK sites for you guys over there.

[chrismetallica1]

turbo1889,
Thanks for the info. I will keep an eye out of the fourten forum. There a quite a few little machine shops round hear. Im sure I could have some made.

Let me know when you post them and I will download a set

[chrismetallica1]

Any news. Have you posted the plans online or are you still workign on it?

All the best

Chris

[MightyThor]

AAGHHHHH I want em I want em I want em I want em I want em. well, almost got that out of my system.

Too bad I been looking at that Taurus that shoots 45 and 410 shells in the same gun. Now I gotta get the gun and then the slugs.:bigsmyl2:

[turbo1889]

For the UK guys (and others) who want blue-prints:

http://www.fourten.org.uk/
--- Listed under "January 2010: How to Make a .410 Slug Swaging Die"
------- Currently at the top of the list under their "Whats New" section.

Yah, I know. Took me long enough. But, better late then never.

[Willbird]

I'm curious if you have any idea how much pressure these loads develop ?? Factory loads using 1/5 oz slugs hit 1500fps, how is it possible to drive 5x the slug weight to the same velocity without a huge rise in chamber pressure ?

Bill

[turbo1889]

I'm curious if you have any idea how much pressure these loads develop ?? Factory loads using 1/5 oz slugs hit 1500fps, how is it possible to drive 5x the slug weight to the same velocity without a huge rise in chamber pressure ?

Bill

First of all I respectfully point out that your initial information about factory loads is incorrect:

Factory 1/4oz. 3" magnum 410-bore slugs are rated at between 1,750 and 1,800 fps. SAMMI max pressure for 3" mag. 410-bore cartridges is 13.5-K

----- http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=557703
----- http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=929044

The one and only factory 1/4oz. 2-1/2" 410-bore slug I know of is rated at 1,775 fps. SAMMI max pressure for 2-1/2" 410-bore cartridges is 12.5-K

----- http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=414800

Factory 1/5oz. 2-1/2" 410-bore slugs are rated at 1,830 fps. SAMMI max pressure for 2-1/2" 410-bore cartridges is 12.5-K

----- http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=415676
----- http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=164681





Secondly, various factory loadings of 2-1/2" 410-bore cartridges deliver payloads of lead and bismuth shot charges with weights between 7/16 and 1/2 oz. at between 1,200 and 1,350 fps. Various factory loadings 3" mag. 410-bore cartridges deliver payloads of lead and bismuth shot charges with weights between 5/8 and 3/4 oz. at between 1,100 and 1,300 fps. Again SAMMI max pressures are 12.5-K and 13.5-K respectively. With finely tuned hand load recipes even more impressive things are capable. I personally know of one recipes for 3" magnum 410-bore shells that uses Reloader-7 powder to propel a 1/2 oz payload of bismuth shot to just over 1,700 fps. It is a very effective load for hunting waterfowl.



So yes, it is entirely possible to propel the slugs produced by my die that weigh between 1/4 and 1/2 oz. (109 to 219 grains) to well over 1,500 fps with ease. While still staying well within SAAMI max pressure limits.

[Willbird]

OK I will concede that my memory on factory slug data was not up to date.

However do you have pressure data that shows firing a 1/2 oz slug creates the same pressure as 1/2 oz of shot ?? I'm not doubting your thought process a bit, just asking if you have any solid pressure test data to back it up ? Seems to me the ammo companies would be all over making up slug loads with 2x the projectile weight if they could pull it off ?

Bill

[turbo1889]

Ah !!!! --------- The old "But Slugs Produce Higher Pressures - You Can't Load them By Equal Weight Shot Loads" argument.

Have you ever heard of an ammunition company known as Dixie Slugs? Here is a link to their web site:

http://www.dixieslugs.com

The owner, "James," who from my research has over 50 years experience with the commercial manufacture of ammunition is a member and semi. active poster on this forum.

I would like to reference a few of his past posts at this time:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=403640&postcount=10
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=278728&postcount=46
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=278665&postcount=42
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=265637&postcount=7
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=265270&postcount=5

Here are the exact excerpts of said posts that I am referring to:


Let's put pressur into focus indeed! Our Terminator (.730'-730 gr - 1250'/") and Tusker (.727"-600 grs-1500'/'- 1 3/8 oz)) are within the working pressure of 12 ga 3" Mag...tested by Ballistic Research! That's out of a 20" rifled barrel!
A solid does not have the pressure of shot load of equal slug weight/powder weightr, due to the difference in sidewall pressure. The original Paradox pushed a .730-730 gr hard solid at 1200'/" with Cordite.
We have people making speculation of pressure that has not had loads tested in a pressure gun....we do!
Now...an equal weight solid will have no more pressure than a shot load at the chamber and less at the nuzzle....if the powder burn is correct and the weight of powder tested. CUT


CUT A good safe place to start with powder is to use the same amount showing for an equal weight shot. Slug/buulet laods have less sidewall pressure. friction than an equal weight of shot. CUT


Let me explain something right up front. I spent my entire adult life working for the gum and ammo co's, in various postions, including Vice-Pres & Director of Marketing for the former Smith & wesson Ammo Co. Duriing all that time I was fortunate to have rubbed elbows with some of the old Greats.
When I retired and moved back to my native state of Florida.....I got tired of fishing and general loafing around. Ammo is in my blood and the results was Dixie Slugs. I enjoy the head to head talk with my customers....there is no middlemen eating up dollars.
Now....as I have said before, there is a growing intrerest in rifled barrels.....and not only in shotgun-only-states. Many of our customers have been involved witj hard cast in handguns.....a natural progression to large rifled barrels.
I really do not claim to have a good bedside manner and sometime come off a little caustic when I see speculation, instead of facts. With all the sydicated gas bag writers today, the web is about the only place left to get facts!
I am nothing more that an old mossy-back ammo man!
Regards, James


Exactly! As I have mentioned, and based on pressure tests, solids do not have the side wall pressure/friction, that an equal weight/velocity as a shot load. CUT When you move over to rifled barrels and solids, a good place to start is equal powder to match an equal weight shot charge. CUT


CUT Fact!...different wad columns do not change pressure, up or down, as much as weight of slug/bullet or velocity.
A beginning load for a solid starts with a shot load of equal weight. Solids do not have the sidewall pressure/friction the a shot load has.
There are many different opinions as to powder burn rate....and single base vs double base powders. In most cases, the powder recommended for a certain shot weight is close for a equal soild's weight. CUT

The ONLY change I have made to those posts I am quoting is to cut out stuff that is off topic for this particular discussion. In such cases I indicated where I had made such cuts by putting in "CUT" in what I quoted. These are taken directly from his posts that I linked to and are in respective order to the links so you can double check me if you wish.




I try to as civilized of a man as I can be in my speech in person and my written word such as on this forum - that said there are certain things that do get under my skin and are a MAJOR irritation to me. The various false theories perpetrated against using lead shot load data as a safe and sane starting point for slug loads is one of those things. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and make the assumption that you are the victim of bad information. If that is not the case I have one more link to another members post, she has a mouth on her and says things exactly like she sees them. I couldn't state it better myself, please note that this is only for the off case that I’m wrong and your not simply the victim of misinformation but rather a/the perpetrator of said misinformation:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=689876&postcount=5

[Willbird]

I'm not arguing with you, merely asking for information.

I'm not a victim of anything, these are MY own questions generated by my own cautions against blowing my guns up and or worse.

Shotguns we both know work at very low pressures, and may not be nearly as forgiving of errors as say center fire rifles. A 10,000 psi pressure excursion is a lot worse in a shotgun than say a 30-06 rifle, which will typically sustain a 2x overload before the action will fail (the brass will fail and release gas, which may do damage)

So the idea of dropping a 2 oz slug on top of the powder charge that generates 12,000 lup with 2 oz of #9 shot and expecting the same pressure DOES make sense, but I have always been a bit SCARED to try it without actually seeing some data to support doing so.

it seems to me that in SOME cases one would have to ensure that the gas seal wad you used would be the same as what was used in the published data (for shotgun hulls with tapered inner walls)

Bill

[turbo1889]

I'm not arguing with you, merely asking for information.

I'm not a victim of anything, these are MY own questions generated by my own cautions against blowing my guns up and or worse. . . .

Glad to hear it, sorry I got a little testy with you. It's one of my "buttons" (as in "pushing someone's buttons").


. . . . Shotguns we both know work at very low pressures, and may not be nearly as forgiving of errors as say center fire rifles. A 10,000 psi pressure excursion is a lot worse in a shotgun than say a 30-06 rifle, which will typically sustain a 2x overload before the action will fail (the brass will fail and release gas, which may do damage) . . . .

I absolutely agree 100% personally I don't have pressure testing equipment of my own (working on that - pressure trace system is on the "saving up to buy" list) so I am forced to rely on the advice of others much more experienced then I that do have pressure testing equipment such as Mr. James owner of Dixie Slugs also Ed Hubel, and Greg.

I have developed a crude method of comparing the pressures of two different shotgun loads by deliberately producing a flaw in the chambers of my guns that I use for load development that gives the brass head on the hulls a spot to bulge out into and by measuring and comparing the severity of the bulge between test loads and book loads with known pressures using the exact same hulls from the exact same lot number and bag with a micro-meter. I have confirmed this method will let me compare the pressures of two different loads to each other. If I take ten hulls and load half of them with a certain charge and then load the other half with that exact same charge minus a single grain of powder and then mix the hulls up after they are fired I can sort them back out and tell you which five were the ones with the slightly lighter charge. It still puts me in an awkward position though that I still have to rely on published loads as a comparison factor so I have to find something in a book that's similar to what I'm trying to work up. I always match the hull and I strongly prefer to match the primer, powder, and at least get close to using the same wad column.

I, also, use the strongest possible guns I have for initial load development. For 12ga. and 20ga. slug load development I use my NEF-USH guns as a test bed. That design has been proven to take well over twice the pressure of normal factory loads on a continual basis and be no worse off for the abuse by Ed Hubel he has pushed them to their limit. For 410 load development I usually use my Saiga-410 for firing the first few loads of a new combination. It has the same frame as an AK-47 and thus the action at least can take rifle pressure levels --- the first part of the barrel where it locks into the receiver is built just as heavy as its rifle counterpart. Unfortunately the barrel does get thinner from then on but still it's the strongest gun I've got in 410-bore.


. . . . the idea of dropping a 2 oz slug on top of the powder charge that generates 12,000 lup with 2 oz of #9 shot and expecting the same pressure DOES make sense, but I have always been a bit SCARED to try it without actually seeing some data to support doing so. . . .

Greg has done exactly that and beyond - he has a custom mold for a 1000+ grain full bore 12ga. slug and he has developed loads for it from 2-1/4oz. shot load data plus some that use other powders not normally used for 12ga. that can push that big monster to even higher muzzle velocity while still staying in the 10-K pressure level, he did have some of his loads for that slug pressure tested and posted the data over on the shotgun world forum.


. . . . it seems to me that in SOME cases one would have to ensure that the gas seal wad you used would be the same as what was used in the published data (for shotgun hulls with tapered inner walls)

Bill

Absolutely 100% correct - if you shove a 12ga. Federal brand wad (large diameter stiff wad designed for straight wall hulls) with the petals cut off in a tapered compression formed 2-3/4” Remington hull or worse yet a tapered 2-3/4” Winchester hull and put a big fat full bore slug on top and put in the same powder charge as an equal weight lead shot load that wasn’t designed to take into consideration you have a Federal wad jammed into either a Remington or Winchester 2-3/4” tapered hull its going to be a hot load. Now there are some select few published loads out there that do call for using a 12ga. Federal wad in a Remington or Winchester hull with lead shot. A comparison between these loads and loads that call for using Remington or Winchester wads will show nearly a 20% difference in powder charge weights to produce the same pressure levels. So, yes, you do have to try to match stuff up. Straight wad jammed into tapered hull is one of the biggest potential Bo-Boos.

[Willbird]

One nightmare I heard of from a trusted friend who SAW it was a guy who loaded some balls into 12 guage hulls,,,after they fired about 20 of them the rear sight fell off due to some serious bulging of the shotgun barrel in that area.

What was amazing was that the guy who did it was not terrible concerned about what happened.....eeekkk :-).

Bill

[turbo1889]

Hmmmm, that sounds interesting (in a scary way). Do you have any info on what exact combination was being used for those ball loads. I'd be really interested to know. Just as much, if not more, can be learned from what doesn't work as what does.

[Willbird]

Not a clue honestly what they used. 12 gauge balls are quite heavy as I recall, and who knows what dia they were, and what load they used.

Bill

[bohica2xo]

Bill:

There is no telling what some people will send down a shotgun bore.

Back when lead shot was still legal for waterfowl I had a customer bring in his Browning A5, complaining about a leading issue near the muzzle.

After a good cleaning it looked like hell. The outside of the barrel was no longer smooth if you looked close. The surface looked like a plastic bag full of BB's, beginning near the choke (full choke bbl). Damage I had never seen before. The choke measured close to "skeet".

I asked him what he had been shooting. His "buddy" had some "goose buster loads". I asked him to bring me one. It was a 3" case, loaded with 10, .380 round balls that were cast from straight linotype, or possibly veritype. They weighed less than 76 grains each. Because all of this **** was too much to fit in the case with a star crimp, a card wad was used over the balls & the remaining .150 was filled with paraffin to hold the mess together.

A powder charge of what appeared to be Herco. Enough of it to be a max load behind 1.5 ounces of shot if it was.

I can't say for sure that the hard lead balls dented the barrel, but perhaps because they were so hard they might well have as they tried to bypass each other. Or his "buddy" loaded some with steel ball bearings as well. I will never know for sure.

Decades later I did see old belgian Brownings with the fixed chokes pounded to **** with big steel shot. The damage looked remarkably similar.

B.

[turbo1889]

Bohica2xo, what you’re describing is exactly what first came to mind when I first read Willbird's story about a 12ga. gun getting bulged in the forcing cone area until the rear sight came loose. Single ball loads are pretty simple it takes exceptional stupidity to mess them up. Multi-ball loads (big balls not shot) are a whole different animal. If a ball size is used that is significantly smaller then bore diameter but still more then 1/2 bore size two or more balls can act together like a wedge in the barrel and produce incredible side pressures far beyond anything normally produced in a shotgun load that act not as a fluid mass like loose shot but rather as individual pressure points.

Personally, I consider there to be a "Dead Man Zone" (ask a helicopter pilot about that term and what it means in his line of work) when loading multi-ball loads such as home-brew Tri-Ball loads with shotguns that includes all ball sizes in the range between balls that are at least 1/2 bore size up to anything smaller then a ball that will fit inside a wad with only a little bit of rattle room. For a 12ga. that includes ball sizes from about from 35-cal to anything less then 60-cal. Get more then one ball in that "Dead Man Zone" rubbing against each other in the same load and you can have a big problem fast.

A little picture to demonstrate what I'm talking about:

http://forums.handloads.com/uploads/turbo1889/2010-01-13_034502_Dead_Man_Ball_Size_Zone.GIF

I've experienced this once myself (that was plenty) and heard of happening to others. Thankfully no damage to the firearm or myself just a very high pressure load that stuck the case in the chamber and took a rod and big hammer to whack out from the muzzle. This is my best guess how it happens the two balls rub against each other and create a pressure point between them and "lock up" or stick to each other as a result. This combined with the chamber pressure acting upwards from below on the lower ball and friction dragging on the upper ball produce a force couple between the two balls acting at their contact point and producing enormous leverage that can potentially cause some very serious problems up to and including bulging a barrel or worse. Obviously this would be especially prone to happening either in the forcing cone or choke due to the funnel like taper of those sections of the barrel. Running the balls inside a wad instead of bare up against the barrel would probably make this less likely to happen but I still wouldn't trust it. I don't use ball sizes in the "Dead Man Size Zone" in multi-ball loads for exactly this reason.

Granted all this is a little off topic but since we are discussing potential hazards it definitely should be brought up. Balls less then 1/2 bore size and big nearly bore size balls or balls that fit fairly tight inside the wad petals that stay in line single file one right behind the other are both fine but in-between sizes can potentially cause big problems.

[.44/40HARRY]

Yea!I got bit by the .410 slug too,I'am a Machinist also,but the lever-action .410 idea is really cool,always have love the old lever-gun,at any rate it just dawn on me,I'am sure you heard of Moly-Coating, heck you can buy .400 0r maybe .410 handgun bullets with Moly-Coating on them already!Of coarse you might want to drill a small hole in the base to make them front heavy so they fly truer and to make them a little bit lighter maybe about a .312 drill?Now that opens a can of worms!