source for pure Antimony and flux.

[rodm1]

Where can I get Antimony for casting and the proper flux? Researching the flux it seems like the proper stuff needed to mix the Antimony with Lead isn't available any longer.

Thanks,

[quail4jake]

Sure you want to try to alloy Sb with Pb? Hard road and very toxic...Try Rotometals superhard, pre alloyed 30% antimonial lead. Good luck, stay un poisoned!

[rodm1]

Yes I do, "Hard road and very toxic" I'm aware but would like to try it anyways. Rotometals is a plan B or C.

Thanks for the warning.

[farmbif]

from what I understand it is no so easy to get pure antimony to mix into lead. I'm no expert but in shooting cast bullets there's not a whole lot that cannot be done with both Linotype and lyman #2.
if you have pure lead and want to make it a harder alloy one path that is very viable is to mix in some foundry type into your pure lead. or just buy Lyman #2 or Linotype from Rotometals. at least you will know exactly what alloy you have when getting from a source such as Rotometals.
I spent years working with a man who owned scrap yards and had an xrf gun and never ever saw pure or even close to pure antimony.

[quail4jake]

Yes I do, "Hard road and very toxic" I'm aware but would like to try it anyways. Rotometals is a plan B or C.

Thanks for the warning.

Sounds like you know what you're doing, please let me know how this goes. I appreciate the plan B and C approach and none of us knows when Rotometals may be no more...it's in Kommiefornia, you know!

[jdfoxinc]

I have seen Rotometals carrying Sa.

[oso]

How much antimony (Sb) do you want? I have used Sb and have a few pounds extra. I'm not poisoned and neither is my family (it is used as flame retardant in children's clothes).
Special flux not needed. Search the forum for antimony and look for posts by folks who have done it like KYcaster, runfiverun and yours truly.

[Scrounge]

Where can I get Antimony for casting and the proper flux? Researching the flux it seems like the proper stuff needed to mix the Antimony with Lead isn't available any longer.

Thanks,

How much antimony do you need to add? Can you get the mix you need with 95/5 Tin/Antimony solder added to your lead? Or close, anyway?

[Rich/WIS]

Have done it in my smelting set up (propane tank/turkey fryer) by lining the bottom of the pot with Sb and covering with ingots of range lead. The Sb in contact with the pot will get hot enough to start to melt and will alloy with the softer stuff as it melts. Need to get the pot HOT and then when mixed cut back the heat. I used about half the soft alloy over the Sb and when mixed added the other half to bring the temp down to reduce oxidation of the Sb. As a ball park use enough soft to make an alloy that is about 30% Sb, and then add more to get the alloy percentage you want. While this worked I decided it was easier to buy foundry type as it would get me not only Sb but Sn in the final alloy.

[USSR]

Sounds like you know what you're doing...

Actually, no, it doesn't sound like he knows what he's doing. Pure antimony melts at 1,167 degrees, dude!

Don

[rodm1]

Thanks everyone this gives me a starting point. It definitely easier to buy the alloy but you learn nothing in the processes.

[Conditor22]

There was a guy (the antimony man I think) that used to sell powdered antimony and flux so you could alloy your own, powdered was the key.

[B.C.Jay]

Been there, done that.

Melt the antimony first, it takes lots of heat, definitely can't do it in an electric pot. Slowly add lead and as the lead melts in, the alloy fluid temperature will quickly become managable. Add tin last.

Avoid any of the white antimony oxide. If you try and heat it directly with flame (like with an acetlyene torch) it will oxidize like crazy.

[Burnt Fingers]

Actually, no, it doesn't sound like he knows what he's doing. Pure antimony melts at 1,167 degrees, dude!

Don

Well DUDE, you can dissolve sugar in water without reaching the melting point of sugar. The same goes for antimony and lead.

[Dusty Bannister]

Maybe this old thread will help folks new to making casting alloy from raw materials. Seems some are getting the instructions backwards. Just read through the entire thread and you can choose the sequence of steps that work well for others.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-166808.html

[USSR]

BF,

We ain't talking about sugar. We are talking about a highly toxic element that requires a higher than normal temperature to alloy into lead. Even the OP sees that this is not a good idea.

Don

[Steve Steven]

I have mixed pure lead and antimony, but not easy. I got a stainless pot, made a lid for it from high temperature 1 1/2" insulation material board that fit into the pot tightly, placed the lead and chunks of antimony in the pot, and heated it with an oxy-acetylene torch so the bottom of the pot was red hot and kept it hot for 15 minutes. The lid is necessary to prevent the antimony from converting to antimony oxide, a dense white vapor that is not good for you, the lid is to keep oxygen away from the hot antimony. The hot melted lead will dissolve the antimony (remember the comment above, "you can dissolve sugar in water without reaching the melting point of sugar") slowly, the smaller the chunks of antimony are the faster they will dissolve in the hot lead. I would shake the pot (GENTLY!!) to hear if the antimony was still in chunks. Don't take the lid out until the pot has cooled down to less than say 800deg F, then pull the lid out and check to see if the antimony chunks are dissolved. You will get a small amount of white antimony oxide smoke at first, but if your lid in the pot is tight it won't be much.

Steve

[LAGS]

I would buy chunks of Antimony from an outfit in Santa Fe springs California and have it shipped to me.
I can't remember the name of the company , since it has been 10 years since I ordered any.
Last shipment was 25 lbs and I probably have half of it still.
I would just melt my lead and add the broken up chunks to the pot.
After an hour or so at 700 degrees , the Antimony would start to melt.
But stay away from the fumes as they can be toxic.
I did get slight Antimony poisoning once and was sick for two days.
After the Antimony is melted , I would flux the mix ,THEN add my Tin.
That way the Tin does not burn off half of it cooking for so long.

[Dusty Bannister]

Normal oxidation does occur and the components burn off at an equal proportional rate. So the dross will have the same proportion of lead as the original melt. The key is, for those that did not read the thread I referred to earlier, is that tin and antimony like to combine. The antimony does not melt, it dissolves into solution. This will take place at your normal casting temps, you do not need a blast furnace to do it. Just keep it covered to prevent exposure to oxygen and stir from time to time if you absolutely can not leave it alone.

[oso]

FYI when I got my antimony from U.S. Antimony they couldn't mine competing with the Chinese so they sold Chinese antimony.
Search function here not working easily for me. Here are some additional informative discussions:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?295963-My-atempt-at-alloying-antimony-with-lead
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?239818-100-Pure-Antimony
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?50083-How-much-Antimony
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?35813-Alloying-safety

[Burnt Fingers]

BF,

We ain't talking about sugar. We are talking about a highly toxic element that requires a higher than normal temperature to alloy into lead. Even the OP sees that this is not a good idea.

Don

Sigh....you can easily alloy antimony into lead at normal lead temperatures. Just like you can dissolve sugar into water without reaching the melting point of sugar.

With antimony you just need the right flux.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?233269-Alloying-antimony-to-lead&p=2668511&viewfull=1#post2668511

[oso]

Burnt Fingers please read what KYCaster states in the link you posted. Quoting again:
"You can easily mix Sb into your alloy with the same equipment you're using now. It works fine at normal lead casting temps. without any special or unusual flux."
If needed to clean your melt any flux you usually use will work. Wax, sawdust, wooden stirring stick, charcoal dust etc. A clean shiny melt needs no fluxing at all.
The trick is to have some tin in the lead because tin and antimony make an inter-metallic compound where tin is the welcome wagon helping the antimony enter the lead neighborhood. I'd say 1-2% minimum of the total weight of alloy you are making could be tin. Of course use 4% tin if you want linotype.
The antimony chunks (easier to use chunks or nuggets, not powder) will float on top of the lead + tin and can be submerged with a screen or a can with a perforated bottom or a perforated jar lid - whatever fits your pot.
Submerging the antimony avoids a lot to stirring.
If you want to try antimony powder or dust first practice mixing talcum powder (be careful, I've heard it causes cancer) on top of water.

[USSR]

I have been casting for 35+ years, and I would NEVER put pure antimony into a pot and try to alloy it into a lead based alloy. I value my health too much. Roto Metal sells an alloy called Super Hard Alloy Metal that consists of 30 percent antimony. Much, much safer.

Don

[Dusty Bannister]

Must be why I use a respirator and disposable gloves and suggest you leave the pot alone while the antimony goes into solution.

edit to add link to antimony cautions per U S Antimony Co

http://usantimony.com/precautions.htm

[USSR]

Ya takes yer chances. Personally, with a toxic substance like pure antimony, I'm not willing to take that chance when a high antimony alloy is readily available.

Don

[bangerjim]

Please..........................just buy Super Hard from Rotometals and be done with it!

Do not try to be an alchemist and make your own mix.

Please advise what funeral home to send flowers to.


banger

[oso]

Ya takes yer chances. Personally, with a toxic substance like pure antimony, I'm not willing to take that chance when a high antimony alloy is readily available.

Don

Please educate me about the toxicity of "pure antimony." We are asking about elemental metallic antimony. Got any references?

[Dusty Bannister]

PRECAUTIONS (per post # 24)


Although antimony compounds must be considered toxic and are labeled accordingly, the metal and trioxide are practically innocuous due to their low solubility in water and body fluids. However, antimony oxide has caused dermatitis, popularly called "antimony measles", especially in hot humid areas where an individual perspires. Although respiratory irritation occurs, it can be prevented by the use of suitable respirators or by the coating of the oxide with wetting agents or plasticizers. No conclusive evidence indicates that antimony compounds are carcinogenic. Currently, the OSHA eight hour time weighted average (TWA) exposure limit is 0.5 mg/m3 of antimony with a short term exposure limit (STEL) of 0.75 mg/m3. The following label is placed on each bag of Montana Brand Antimony Oxide

[USSR]

Please, listen to bangerjim, don't try to be an alchemist.

Don

[B.C.Jay]

Ya takes yer chances. Personally, with a toxic substance like pure antimony, I'm not willing to take that chance when a high antimony alloy is readily available.

Don

Just a question: Have you ever had experience with pure antimony and it's uses? Or are you just an internet expert with an opinion based on no practical experience?

~J

[USSR]

B.C.Jay,

I am a programmer/analyst by trade. As such, I look at things and make decisions based on the facts of the case. Having looked at this situation over the past 35 years, much of which was articles written by knowledgeable bullet casters decades before Al Gore invented the internet, I have come to the conclusion that this is a potentially dangerous and unnecessary endeavor when a high antimony product is readily available. One thing I have learned in my many years of life is, if a lot of knowledgeable people say something is potentially bad for your health, don't do it. And since the OP is someone new to bullet casting, I cannot in good conscience recommend that he attempts to alloy antimony into a lead based alloy. Hope that answers your question.

Don

[bangerjim]

Just a question: Have you ever had experience with pure antimony and it's uses? Or are you just an internet expert with an opinion based on no practical experience?

~J

As an industrial applications engineer for over 40 years, I used to deal with semiconductor manufacturing and waste treatment plants and they used pH, conductivity and REDOX (reduction / oxidization potential) measurement meters. Not these portable hand jobs you see on Amazon, but permanent dedicated instruments. To measure REDOX, the measuring electrode was solid Sb. And the boxes normally came with warnings about toxicity and to wear gloves when replacing them.

The oxides are especially toxic, just as the oxides of many metals are.

And just because something is in an "elemental " metal form, does not alleviate the potential toxicity. Example: Hg & Cd. Of course anything in excess can be potentially toxic/lethal to the human body....even potable water!

Nuff facts for you, my friend???????????????


banger :guntootsmiley:

[oso]

Don, you did not answer my question in post #27.
Dusty Bannister referenced United States Antimony Corp. precaution statement that "Although antimony compounds must be considered toxic and are labeled accordingly, the metal and trioxide are practically innocuous ..." What does this mean? Seek and you will find in Wikipedia: "Elemental antimony metal does not affect human and environmental health. Inhalation of antimony trioxide (and similar poorly soluble Sb(III) dust particles such as antimony dust) is considered harmful and suspected of causing cancer. However, these effects are only observed with female rats and after long-term exposure to high dust concentrations."
I'm glad I'm not a female rat, but you don't see me having anything to do with antimony oxides.
You will also find a blanket statement repeated verbatim "Antimony and many of its compounds are toxic." That statement is repeated so many times in so many places without source or discussion . . . There is gravitas! It must be TRUE! That must be why antimony is in water safe lead free solder and food grade pewter and 60% of the antimony produced is used to make flame retardant including in children's clothes and toys.

[bumpo628]

Rotometals sells pure antimony in several forms.
https://www.rotometals.com/antimony/

[B.C.Jay]

B.C.Jay,

I am a programmer/analyst by trade. As such, I look at things and make decisions based on the facts of the case. Having looked at this situation over the past 35 years, much of which was articles written by knowledgeable bullet casters decades before Al Gore invented the internet, I have come to the conclusion that this is a potentially dangerous and unnecessary endeavor when a high antimony product is readily available. One thing I have learned in my many years of life is, if a lot of knowledgeable people say something is potentially bad for your health, don't do it. And since the OP is someone new to bullet casting, I cannot in good conscience recommend that he attempts to alloy antimony into a lead based alloy. Hope that answers your question.

Don

Ok, fair enough.
I appreciate your opinion on it.

As someone who handles this stuff on a regular basis, I have done exactly what the original poster has inquired about, and I hope he has found some useful information to work with.
Tongue lashing about possible hazards seems a bit counter productive to me. Yes, the oxide of antimony has toxicity associated with it, but I'm sure he's not going to be making lollypops out of it.
Take proper steps to avoid exposure and carry on....

And to the OP, and anyone else that's interested - alloying your own casting mix using pure raw metals makes a world of difference. It makes all wheel weight alloy look like contaminated garbage (which it probably is)


~Jason

[B.C.Jay]

As an industrial applications engineer for over 40 years, I used to deal with semiconductor manufacturing and waste treatment plants and they used pH, conductivity and REDOX (reduction / oxidization potential) measurement meters. Not these portable hand jobs you see on Amazon, but permanent dedicated instruments. To measure REDOX, the measuring electrode was solid Sb. And the boxes normally came with warnings about toxicity and to wear gloves when replacing them.

The oxides are especially toxic, just as the oxides of many metals are.

And just because something is in an "elemental " metal form, does not alleviate the potential toxicity. Example: Hg & Cd. Of course anything in excess can be potentially toxic/lethal to the human body....even potable water!

Nuff facts for you, my friend???????????????


banger :guntootsmiley:


Sure. Facts are always good.
BTW, I do appreciate your posts on a regular basis.

~J

[KYCaster]

Jeeezzzzeeeee!
After reading all the Chicken Little comments, I guess I should be surprised I'm not already dead!
And.....comparing the toxicity of Antimony to Mercury and Cadmium is a bit of a stretch IMO.

Jerry

[labop]

I have some LETS Alloyer's Flux from the Antimony Man. I only have 4 lbs antimony left so I won't use it all. Instructions say to use one rounded tablespoon per pound of Sb. It would be expensive to ship UPS but no HAZMAT as it says inorganic chlorine salts. Instructions on the back. Send me a PM and maybe we could work something out. I'm not selling it but would want shipping.
labop