Got To Wondering

[44MAG#1]

In the thread: "S & W Model 29-2 Cylinder Throat Size" I got to wondering about how so many say to size at or very slightly smaller than throat size, as long as the throat is slightly over groove diameter, to get stellar accuracy, no leading.
Then we had Elmer Keith saying in the 44 mag to size to .429 inch, and him using the early S&W 44 Mag 4 inch gun as his working gun, which no doubt had large throats due to the time of manufacturing.
Then he writes of shooting flying birds, flying fish, Coyotes at a quarter mile and mule deer at 250 yards. This has gotten me to wondering if he was that good doing it wrong according to todays experts, how much better would he have been if he had done things right by todays experts?
Now without giving a "sucker punch" answer such as his alloy was soft and "slugged up" to fit the throats how do you explain it.
Now if you choose to give the "Slugged up" answer this is my questions on that.
1. How could one be SURE the bullet slugged up the EXACT same amount so as not to force the bullet to a differnt length each bullet fired which could have caused the bullet to shorten different amounts which could have changed the center of gravity?
2. How could one be SURE the bullet "SLUGGED UP" the same around the bullet so as not to change the Axis the the bullet rotated around once it left the barrel the would cause varying amounts of yaw moreso than the bullet started out with if it did have some?
3. How could one be SURE that the bullet "Slugged UP" the same on the base band and in the cylindical portion of the lube groove?
4. What happened if he to use a slightly harder alloy for some reason or a softer alloy for some reason such as bullets some of his buddies may have given him?
5. What if he used a differnt "LOT" of 2400 that produced say a lesser pressure, more pressure, of a combination of a differnt "LOT" of powder and a differnt "LOT" of primer that may have changed pressure which would have some miniscule effect on "SLUG UP"?
I probably will have more question later as my curiosity is piqued by the answers I get on this.

[Bazoo]

I magine Elmer was no stranger to scrubbing lead out of a bore. I get leading with my two revolvers, GP100 in 357 and SBH 44 magnum. I've tried sizing big, and all the suggestions from here. The typical answer is well use a micrometer instead of calipers, or buy a $100 set of pin gages. Slug a bullet and the slug will fall through my throats, size to throats and I get leading. Other folks are just lucky I reckon.

The next answer everyone pushes is that bandaid they call powder coating.

[44MAG#1]

I am really more concerned with the "accuracy" part of this question.
"Leading" not so much.

[tazman]

I expect his groove diameter was around .429 or a hair smaller. You can get by with a bit undersize at the throat if the boolit fits the barrel well.
His apparently did.

[Gtek]

One more question- Do you think at at this point in his life and exposure with S&W that his 29- would be the same as Elmer Fudd's counter pick at the gun store?

[44MAG#1]

One more question- Do you think at at this point in his life and exposure with S&W that his 29- would be the same as Elmer Fudd's counter pick at the gun store?
What does Elmer Fudd have to do with it?

[Bazoo]

A lot of Elmer's accuracy was shoot one, see where it hit and adjust the sight hold for subsiquently shots. He, I'm sure used a single batch of alloy and powder to reproduce a known spectacular load, but often he just sighted in on a stump and held his front sight over however much for the ammo he had in hand. It wasn't one shot one kill with no sighters at 1/4 mile most of the time.

I read where he and a friend had taken an elk at like 600 yards. They shot at it repeatedly both with rifles and handguns, and when it was recovered, they found they had hit it numerous times. That's not sportsmanlike in today's world, but it was a successful kill and recovered animal regardless of the number of shots used.

[44MAG#1]

Mr. Keith took a Mule Deer at 600 yards with the S&W 6.5 inch 44 Mag S&W sent him using the first Remington 44 Mag ammo. He shot 4 times and hit the deer twice.
I am a huge fan of Mr Keith and followed his writings.

[Bazoo]

He was an amazing person that's for sure. I think that is the one he sighted in on a stump from the car window on the way home from picking up the ammo/gun.

I read where he was bucked off a horse he was going to break, and his boot caught in the stirrup. He was able to grab his 45 and shoot the horse a couple times to save from being dragged to death. That is some cool headed thinking.

[ddixie884]

In the thread: "S & W Model 29-2 Cylinder Throat Size" I got to wondering about how so many say to size at or very slightly smaller than throat size, as long as the throat is slightly over groove diameter, to get stellar accuracy, no leading.
Then we had Elmer Keith saying in the 44 mag to size to .429 inch, and him using the early S&W 44 Mag 4 inch gun as his working gun, which no doubt had large throats due to the time of manufacturing.
Then he writes of shooting flying birds, flying fish, Coyotes at a quarter mile and mule deer at 250 yards. This has gotten me to wondering if he was that good doing it wrong according to todays experts, how much better would he have been if he had done things right by todays experts?
Now without giving a "sucker punch" answer such as his alloy was soft and "slugged up" to fit the throats how do you explain it.
Now if you choose to give the "Slugged up" answer this is my questions on that.
1. How could one be SURE the bullet slugged up the EXACT same amount so as not to force the bullet to a differnt length each bullet fired which could have caused the bullet to shorten different amounts which could have changed the center of gravity?
2. How could one be SURE the bullet "SLUGGED UP" the same around the bullet so as not to change the Axis the the bullet rotated around once it left the barrel the would cause varying amounts of yaw moreso than the bullet started out with if it did have some?
3. How could one be SURE that the bullet "Slugged UP" the same on the base band and in the cylindical portion of the lube groove?
4. What happened if he to use a slightly harder alloy for some reason or a softer alloy for some reason such as bullets some of his buddies may have given him?
5. What if he used a differnt "LOT" of 2400 that produced say a lesser pressure, more pressure, of a combination of a differnt "LOT" of powder and a differnt "LOT" of primer that may have changed pressure which would have some miniscule effect on "SLUG UP"?
I probably will have more question later as my curiosity is piqued by the answers I get on this.

I believe EMK said from groove diameter to not more than .002 above..........

[44MAG#1]

I read him saying .429" for the 44 Mag. Of course i may be mistaken.

[cupajoe]

In the days when "Pride in workmanship" were commonplace and bullets were not jacketed, the cylinder throats were probably sized correctly and uniform. Elmer also was not fond of fast burning powders or hot powders.

[44MAG#1]

I was in contact with a gentleman that has a very early 4 inch S&W 44 Magnum that a .432 pin Guage would barely enter the throats and a .433 inch wouldn't enter so I wouldnt bet the farm on the throats being "correct". Whatever that means to whomever uses the term.

[Hickok]

Back many moons ago when I started casting, I made two big mistakes.

Both came from advice in the Lyman reloading manual.

Number one mistake was to size boolits to groove diameter in revolvers. Number 2 was to go to a harder alloy for magnum revolver loads. From my experience, following the directions from the Lyman manual were a disaster.

They I got to reading Mike Venturino, he was then a young aspiring gun-writer back in the early 1970's. He had tried sizing to groove diameter in revolvers, and also found out it sucked. Mike then found that sizing cast boolits to cylinder throat diameter was the way to go.

I followed Mike's advice and slugged my chamber throats in my .357's and .44 magnums and then stated sizing for a tight fit in the cylinder throats. The revolvers shot great, leading disappeared, and I could cast boolits with wheelweights instead Linotype, (which was hard to find when living in "Hooterville").

My S&W 29-3 has .433" throats. No way do I want to shoot a bunch of .429" cast boolits in it. It would a lot of work scrubbing out the forcing cone and the barrel.

[44MAG#1]

So Mr. Keith was wrong? How much better would he have been if he had done it "right"?


Back many moons ago when I started casting, I made two big mistakes.

Both came from advice in the Lyman reloading manual.

Number one mistake was to size boolits to groove diameter in revolvers. Number 2 was to go to a harder alloy for magnum revolver loads. From my experience, following the directions from the Lyman manual were a disaster.

They I got to reading Mike Venturino, he was then a young aspiring gun-writer back in the early 1970's. He had tried sizing to groove diameter in revolvers, and also found out it sucked. Mike then found that sizing cast boolits to cylinder throat diameter was the way to go.

I followed Mike's advice and slugged my chamber throats in my .357's and .44 magnums and then stated sizing for a tight fit in the cylinder throats. The revolvers shot great, leading disappeared, and I could cast boolits with wheelweights instead Linotype, (which was hard to find when living in "Hooterville").

My S&W 29-3 has .433" throats. No way do I want to shoot a bunch of .429" cast boolits in it. It would a lot of work scrubbing out the forcing cone and the barrel.

[tazman]

So Mr. Keith was wrong? How much better would he have been if he had done it "right"?

Remember the wisdom that has been quoted over and over on this site. "Every gun is a law unto itself and will tell you what it likes."
Everything we recommend is just guidelines and suggestions, not hard rules. What works for one person and their gun, may not work for you.
Keith found something he could make work. He recommended it to others. For some it did. For others, not so much.
That doesn't mean he was wrong. It just means it worked for him.

I do some things that are outside normal guidelines for some of my handguns because of how it works. I don't normally recommend these things as a rule because my particular gun may be a "one off" situation.
I also have a couple of handguns that are decidedly out of normal specs. I have to do things a bit differently for those.

The normal guidelines are a good place to start.

[ABJ]

Remember the wisdom that has been quoted over and over on this site. "Every gun is a law unto itself and will tell you what it likes."
Everything we recommend is just guidelines and suggestions, not hard rules. What works for one person and their gun, may not work for you.
Keith found something he could make work. He recommended it to others. For some it did. For others, not so much.
That doesn't mean he was wrong. It just means it worked for him.

I do some things that are outside normal guidelines for some of my handguns because of how it works. I don't normally recommend these things as a rule because my particular gun may be a "one off" situation.
I also have a couple of handguns that are decidedly out of normal specs. I have to do things a bit differently for those.

The normal guidelines are a good place to start.

Amen!!!

[44MAG#1]

So if every gun is a law unto itself, which it is, does one size the bullets for each gun, work up a accurate load for each gun, and maybe use specific components for each gun, use certain alloys for certain ones in the collection?
If one has eight 44 Mags, from 2.75 inches to 7.5 inches one has to load specific loads for each one? What if one has multiple 1911's in 45 Auto and multiple Glocks in 45 Auto?

[rintinglen]

So if every gun is a law unto itself, which it is, does one size the bullets for each gun, work up a accurate load for each gun, and maybe use specific components for each gun, use certain alloys for certain ones in the collection?
If one has eight 44 Mags, from 2.75 inches to 7.5 inches one has to load specific loads for each one? What if one has multiple 1911's in 45 Auto and multiple Glocks in 45 Auto?

If your goal is maximum accuracy and perfect functioning from each one, then yes you may have to adjust. I have eight 9 mms these days, ranging from a BHP down to a Kimber micro 9mm. Is there one load that shoots best from all of them? Not that I've been able to discover. My Luger is as picky as a cactus while my S&W 39-2 eats just about anything you can fit in the magazine, but it prefers 124 grain RN stuff. My SIG likes 147 grain JHP's. Maybe you'll get lucky and find one load that performs acceptably in all your guns. Or if all that one is concerned with is making a loud noise, then one can make piles of blasting ammo for the grandkids to shoot up. But to assert that since "Saint Elmer" ordained it, it must shoot well in your gun is patently nonsensical.

Now there are some loads that shoot well in most guns of that caliber. The 358-311 over 3.5 grains of Bullseye in 38 Special, a 429-421 over 7.5 grains of Unique in 44 special, a 358-156 over 14 grains of 2400 in 357, a 225 grain LRN over 5.5 grains of Unique in 45 ACP; these are all time tested loads that have proven to do well in most guns of that caliber--but there are exceptions. One of the advantages of being a reloader is the ability to make ammo that your pistol or revolver shoots well. Or rifle or shotgun, for that matter.

[Hickok]

So Mr. Keith was wrong? How much better would he have been if he had done it "right"?I have most all of Elmer Keith's book too. So I am not ignorant of his writings. I also have most of Jack O'Connor's books, and these two men severely disagreed with each other on many shooting related topics.

I would like to see others on this site chime-in as to whether they size cast boolits to fit barrel groove diameter or cylinder throat diameter of their revolvers.

[44MAG#1]

I have most all of Elmer Keith's book too. So I am not ignorant of his writings. I also have most of Jack O'Connor's books, and these two men severely disagreed with each other on many shooting related topics.

I would like to see others on this site chime-in as to whether they size cast boolits to fit barrel groove diameter or cylinder throat diameter of their revolvers.

The thing I am questioning is many, many, many, many say size to or very slightly under throat size for it to be right.
Could Mr. Keith have been wrong? Could he have been a better shooter if he had done thing the way of today's shooters?

[bdicki]

He also used a front sight with gold bars inserted for range.
https://i.imgur.com/75gC4xOh.jpg

[44MAG#1]

He also used a front sight with gold bars inserted for range.
https://i.imgur.com/75gC4xOh.jpg

That was for having a reference point for elevation.

[bdicki]

That was for having a reference point for elevation.
With a known gun and a known load that would be range.

[44MAG#1]

With a known gun and a known load that would be range.

Yes, it takes elevation to have range.

[tazman]

So if every gun is a law unto itself, which it is, does one size the bullets for each gun, work up a accurate load for each gun, and maybe use specific components for each gun, use certain alloys for certain ones in the collection?
If one has eight 44 Mags, from 2.75 inches to 7.5 inches one has to load specific loads for each one? What if one has multiple 1911's in 45 Auto and multiple Glocks in 45 Auto?

That is going to depend entirely on you final objective. Do you want acceptable accuracy from all your handguns or do you want the best accuracy from your handguns?
Since I am not physically able to use my handguns well enough to take advantage of their best accuracy, I go for acceptable accuracy with excellent function. I can get loads that shoot as well as I can that work in all my handguns.
If I am going for best accuracy, I do it one gun at a time and load for that weapon specifically. That is really the only way to get there unless you have a lucky accident and they all like the same stuff.
You have to determine what you want to deal with.

Would Keith have been better if he was using the "new methods". I can give you a very definite maybe.
You have to remember that Keith had his own ideas about how things should work that didn't always fit what others thought and often didn't work in others guns. His ideas worked in his guns and enough others that he developed a following. That didn't make him a gun god.(blasphemy?)
Everybody has different hands/eyes/reflexes and what works for one may not work for the next person.

I know I spend a lot of time searching for that magic combination that just works great in everything. I haven't found it yet.
I have loads that only work well in some guns and not so much in others. I have loads that give respectable accuracy and good function in everything but not necessarily the best accuracy from any one gun.
I have a couple of choices here. I can develop loads for each gun, I can develop loads that function okay in all of them, or I can get rid of all the guns that don't work really well with my most accurate loads in the others.
Since I am lazy and don't want to get rid of any good shooting guns, I choose option number two and make loads that work reasonably well in all of them and make a few loads for specific guns for target work. That simplifies the process for me enough that I can deal with it.

[onelight]

Good post Taz , I like the same method it works for me for how I shoot most of the time.

[rkrcpa]

For all we know, Elmer's gun may have had tight throats. Only way to know is to measure them. Otherwise it's all guesswork.

[44MAG#1]

Since there have been evidence early S&W 44 Mags had large throats let's assume (we know what is said about assuming) his did.

[Dale53]

I am a certified "Old Fart". When I was fourteen years of age, my father gave me Elmer Keith's little blue book "Sixgun Cartridges and Loads". Neither of us knew anything about cast bullets and reloading. Using that book, and subsequent later of Keith's works, I was casting bullets and successfully reloading handguns, first, shotguns and rifles later, etc. My father became a very dedicated and successful trapshooter. The area I live and grew up, SW Ohio, had a LOT of very dedicated trap and skeet shooters. The National Trap Shoot was held annually just north of here and we attended that annually.

Elmer Keith, early on recommended (for handguns) to size to cylinder throats. He stated that the proper size would allow you to push the sized and lubed cast bullet through the throat using no more than a pencil. That same advice, with more specific precision measuring tools is still advised. The point is, Elmer didn't intend the bullets to be so oversized that they had to be driven through the throats. I know, for a fact, that he knew what he was doing. He was a fine shot, and proved it at Camp Perry. I believe he was runner up in the Wimbleton match (1000 yards with a high power rifle). Elmer was highly revered by me, as his books took an ignorant teen ager and helped make me a serious competitive shooter in small bore rifle, hand gun, and big bore rifle.

Was he always right? I doubt it as I haven't met anyone who is always correct. However, he was not BS and that is a fact!

I got to meet Elmer and talked with him a couple of times later in life. I went to a number of NRA Conventions in Washington D.C. as well as Cincinnati, Ohio, and Louisville, Kentucky. Elmer I met in D.C.

I was also privileged to meet some of the other greats of shooting (Charlie Askings, Skeeter Skelton, etc.). Ed Harris has been a big help to me over the years. Mike Venturino was a really big help to me when I competed in BPCR Silhouette. It goes on and on.

My life has been enriched more than a little by a number of BIG MEN in the shooting world. Townsend Whelen was a giant in the shooting world as well as the outdoor world. I was introduced to him many, many years ago at the NRA Museum in D. C. Many of these men were exactly what they appeared to be.

As to improving our personal shooting - I have found some popular writers that appeal to me and some that do not. A lot depends what is important to you. When it comes to handguns, I strive to have my handguns shoot under an inch at 25 yards from a rest. That is my standard. Then, I shoot. Over the years I shot a lot. I have belonged to my local club since 1954 (not a misprint), and only a couple of years have I been more than ten minutes from that club. We have pistol, rifle and shotgun ranges. I have spent a significant time there over the years shooting annually ten to fifteen thousand shots a year. I was competitive.

I was never a wealthy individual, and could have only done this by casting my own bullets and reloading. Do to advanced age and some health issues I am shooting a lot less these days (the pandemic is NOT helping). Until the day they plant me, I will be deeply interested in casting bullets, reloading, and shooting!

Long live the bullet caster and reloader. Hopefully, after this pandemic is over, we can all get back to normal!

Stay safe!
Dale53

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I shot a handful of powder coated 240 grain boolits over 23 grains of WW 296 out of my Blackhawk yesterday. Alloy was coww with some tin added. Accurate and a clean barrel afterwards. Sized to a push through fit on the throats at .431". Load worked the same in my Henry single shot. I would not try that same load with lubed boolits because I'm 100% certain they would have leaded the bores. But I also figure that if I gas checked and lubed that load, they would have worked fine. How the powder coating is able to prevent gas cutting is beyond me.

[44MAG#1]

In Mr Keiths book "SIXGUNS" in the section on the 44 Magnum he says bullets sized .429 inches. In later writings he said the same thing, In the calls I made to him over the years he ever wavered from .429 inch sizing for the 44 Magnum whether Smith and Wesson or Ruger.
It is too easy to find out about the .429 inch sizing.

[charlie b]

I will shoot what works best in my guns.

And, yes, when I have multiple guns with same cartridges they are usually more accurate with different loads.

Father-in-law had a Python, Uberti SAA and Marlin in .357mag. The Python liked lighter bullets at max velocity. The Marlin liked heavy bullets at max velocity. The SAA liked heavy bullets at lower velocity. The Python and SAA had the same size cylinders so he sized them all to that. The Marlin was sized to it's throat dia.

[44MAG#1]

And you should shoot what you want to shoot. No one, especially me would believe otherwise. I do what I want. Plus I was talking handguns. Rifles compared to rifles in maybe another thread sometime.


I will shoot what works best in my guns.

And, yes, when I have multiple guns with same cartridges they are usually more accurate with different loads.

Father-in-law had a Python, Uberti SAA and Marlin in .357mag. The Python liked lighter bullets at max velocity. The Marlin liked heavy bullets at max velocity. The SAA liked heavy bullets at lower velocity. The Python and SAA had the same size cylinders so he sized them all to that. The Marlin was sized to it's throat dia.

[wv109323]

The wild card in this discussion is the shooter. Very few handgun shooters can hold the firearm steady enough to approach the accuracy of the loaded ammo. Benchresting or Ransom Resting still leaves a lot to be desired. I have a Ransom Rest and the best way to describe it is that it is a female.
What you think you have accomplished will change the next time you try the exact same thing. My friend and I have tried to work up an accurate load for his 9mm STI. Regardless of Starline brass, VV powder and match bullets the most accurate load is cheap Federal 147 g fmj. Go figure.
A good shooter with so-so ammo will always out shoot a poor shooter with good ammo.
In Bullseye pistol I strive for ammo that shoots less than 2" at 50 yards or about 4 moa. But in a match I am lucky to keep all my shots within 20 moa. If a shooter could hold 8 moa through the NRA 2700 he would have a perfect score. In over 100 years of competition that has never been done by anyone. A perfect score has never been achieved in 90 shots with any .22 lr or .38 revolver or .45 acp.
Daniel Boone is remembered for the 200 yard shot on a chipmunk. He is not remembered for the 1000 times he missed the chipmunk.

[Norske]

Since Elmer's M29 was presented to him by S&W, (not an off the shelf firearm) I suspect it was of at least the quality of modern custom shop revolvers.

Speaking of which, wasn't it stolen from his Jeep? Does anyone know if it was ever recovered?

[44MAG#1]

Mr. Keiths 4 inch carry gun wasnt presented to him by Smith and Wesson.


Since Elmer's M29 was presented to him by S&W, (not an off the shelf firearm) I suspect it was of at least the quality of modern custom shop revolvers.

Speaking of which, wasn't it stolen from his Jeep? Does anyone know if it was ever recovered?

[tazman]

There are several of the old timers I wish I had been able to meet and talk to. Keith being one of them.

[robertbank]

I magine Elmer was no stranger to scrubbing lead out of a bore. I get leading with my two revolvers, GP100 in 357 and SBH 44 magnum. I've tried sizing big, and all the suggestions from here. The typical answer is well use a micrometer instead of calipers, or buy a $100 set of pin gages. Slug a bullet and the slug will fall through my throats, size to throats and I get leading. Other folks are just lucky I reckon.

The next answer everyone pushes is that bandaid they call powder coating.

Bazoo get your forcing cone cut to 11 degrees. This stopped all my leading I was getting in my Ruger GP-100 in 357mag. I now have to get my GP-100 in 10MM cut to 11 degrees. I want to shoot 40cal in my gun using 175gr lead bullets. Right now they do lead up the bore in the first 1.2" of rifling. I am waiting on a die to cut GC's for the 40cal loads. If they eliminate the leading I will leave the forcing cone alone.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

There are several of the old timers I wish I had been able to meet and talk to. Keith being one of them.

Keith would be one for sure. The inly thing I would ever challenge him in was in one of his hunting stories in his book "Hell I was there". He talks about taking a deer in Alberta and hitting in the spine taking out 4" of it's spine. He then says the deer ran some distance. If he did as he says he did then the deer could not have run a foot never mind several yards. Once you cut the spinal cord the electricity is off and the back legs would not have moved an inch. That aside I would recommend that book. It is a very interesting read.

Take Care

Bob
ps two guys I miss around here are Felix Robbins and BruceB

[Wayne Smith]

One thing to remember is that a good number of Mr. Keith's revolvers were custom made. I'm sure such details were known to the builders of these revolvers. He never hesitated to get a gun worked on when needed.

[44MAG#1]

Did he assume that everyone had a revolver that was "right " when recommended a .429 inch bullet in his recommendations? That would be far reaching.



One thing to remember is that a good number of Mr. Keith's revolvers were custom made. I'm sure such details were known to the builders of these revolvers. He never hesitated to get a gun worked on when needed.

[Dale53]

44Mag#1;
I am going to have to clarify my comments. I could not find my copy of Elmers book, "Sixgun Cartridges and Loads", last evening. I did look at his book "Sixguns". You are correct, he did not mention sizing to the throat in that book. However, Elmer wrote magazine articles for years and at some point in time, he did recommend a "push fit" in the throat. He suggested using something like a "pencil" to push through "as opposed to driving the bullet through".

When I first started out, and for many years, I would try sized bullets that I cast at a recommended size. If they shot well, then I did not seek anything else. As an example, my first .44 magnum was a used Super Blackhawk. My sizing die was .430" and the loads would shoot under an inch at 25 yards off a rest. That was good enough for me, and I proceeded to learn to shoot it decently, which was a challenge, at first, of course.

I still have that revolver after all of these years. I started competitive handgun shooting, probably in the early sixties. NRA Bullseye shooting was quite active at my local club with some stellar shooters as fellow members. Most of us, at the time, were reloaders and several were bullet casters.
I learned a lot from our continuous discussions. Our club was small at the time, but very active. Soon, I talked the club into getting a Ransom Rest and learned to operate it. We became quite active in PPC Shooting. My town in SW Ohio has had a population of about 70,000 over the years but greater Hamilton runs about 100,000. We became quite supportive of the local Police PPC Program. Hamilton had a serious shooter Police Chief and Hamilton, in spite of it's small size, was Nationally Ranked in those days. We had other very active programs in other municipalities around Cincinnati to the south of us.

As a result there was a big incentive to use the Ransome Rest, help other club members and local police develop accurate loads. My PPC revolver in the RansomRest would shoot Remington and Winchester target wadcutters at 5/8"" at 25 yards. My home cast bulleted loads were never able to quite match that level of accuracy. However, they consistently shoot under an inch at 25 yards off the RR.

However, in spite of this experimentation, I did not come to the conclusion, until much later that the "answer" was to serious relationship that throat size and bore size was THE answer. I simply used different sizing dies until I got one to work well, and that was that. However, it turned out I was extremely fortunate in that most of the revolvers that I tried ended up shooting well with a "recommended" bullet size. As an example, .32's worked well at .313"-.314", .38's/,357 mags worked well with .358", .44 Specials/.44 Mags worked well with .430" and so on. It wasn't until many years later that I had access to pin gauges and the understanding fully the relationship to throat an bore size.

One thing Elmer stated in his "Sixguns" was the fact that .45 Colt caliber revolvers had throat sizes and bore sizes all over the map. .44 caliber revolvers we much more likely to be close in dimensions to each other. He mentioned that was a big reason as to his movement to .44 caliber handguns, in general. That observation is correct as far as I am concerned also. I came to the .45 Colt caliber late in life. Using what we know, I was able to get excellent results with my Ruger SS Bisley .45 ACP/.45 Colt Convertible, but ONLY after I reamed both cylinders. It went from a poor shooting leaded up revolver in as little as 30 shots to shooting extremely well with NO leading when the throats were reamed to .4525" and bullets sized to .452".

So, the summation is that I had good results by experimenting and listening to many different "experts" but did not LEARN "WHY and HOW" until many years later. I suspect that happened to many of us.

FWIW
Dale53

[44MAG#1]

Dale53,

Glad it worked for you. What Mr. Keith did must have worked for him.

[oldcanadice]

Perhaps something to note here is Elmer was not optimizing his load for one gun. He had, and at different times carried, different guns while he was still ranching. For example; he was the one that pointed out that riding ornery mountain horses while carrying a double-action pistol wouldn't always work out well. On point: he used and recommended that common 'best-average-load' that he carried in all of those workaday guns, i.e., an overall with emphasis on effective load that worked well in whichever of the guns he had with him. In younger days (I'm 84) I had an original Ruger hogleg that shot that load well enough for me to often hit 3 foot rocks at 150 or so yards. After that, I have never doubted the old cuss's veracity or advice.

[44MAG#1]

In my first post I was alluding to his S&W 44 Mag carry gun.

[Petander]

The next answer everyone pushes is that bandaid they call powder coating.

Sir, it is no bandaid.

Read on, this is a gun board and it's year 2021.