Rifle issue

[Watchdog]

I have a 357 Henry that has been a fine rifle. I typically shoot 38 brass, and shoot it till it splits. Lately I have been shooting 11 gr of 2400 and a 158 gr hard cast Bullet. Last Sept I was shooting and a round failed to chamber. the previous round had broken in half, leaving half the shell in the chamber. I sent the rifle to Henry and they replaced the barrel at no charge.
Several weeks ago it happened again. This time I got the shell out, but ruined the chamber. Back to Henry and a new barrel, no charge. I thought that was extraordinarily generous. Anyway, what happened? I never heard of this..... any thoughts??

[skeettx]

Great first post
Thank you Watchdog

Get some newer brass
Do you live close to Amarillo?

For getting the next stuck case out, try dry ice.

Mike

[Bazoo]

Howdy and welcome to the forum. Interesting that it happened twice. I'd say that brass needs replaced. Thanks for sharing. Is this brass used only in this rifle? I spect it's brass of unknown ages and firing?

I have removed a stuck 22 rimfire case with a cleaning rod that had the end mushroomed so it would grab the edge of the casing.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

That is great service. But, I kind of wonder how one such round could ruin a barrel. In what way, to what extent was it damaged?

DG

[Winger Ed.]

Welcome.

That is generous, I'm surprised they warranted it a second time.

Just a wild guess, but it sounds like your brass is in need of replacing or at least anneal it.
Or ya need some plastic tools to get the broken cases out of the chamber.

[curdog]

What is the max powder charge in a 38 special case using 2400 powder?

[Watchdog]

Careful as I was, I managed to gouge the chamber. I thought about trying to grind it smooth, but concluded I was screwed. I have split lots of cases, but I never heard of breaking one in half. What happen? How would that happen? How would pressure do that?

[Winger Ed.]

It'd be sort of along the lines of case head separation that happens to old bottle neck cases.

As cases 'grow', they tend to thin out close to the base.
In the scheme of things, .38 brass tends to be on the thin side for wall thickness to start with.

If any of yours are past the max. case length, they're prime candidates to split too.

[Watchdog]

Don’t know. I see people talk about using 13 gr. I’ve never heard of the shell separating.......

[country gent]

There is a point in the case usually just ahead of the case head where repeated sizing and firing stretches the case causing separations. It can be felt with a thin wire pointed l dragging the inside of the case.

Idont have a manual handy but think the 11 grn of 2400 in 38spl is upper end load so brass will wear out faster

[Watchdog]

I don’t know about the first one. I wonder if they tried to remove the shell, and messed it up, or just picked up a new barrel. In the reply from Henry they said they routinely send them to a local gun shop, that surprised me.

[Bazoo]

That load is in the starting 357 magnum range. Sounds like a decent general purpose rifle load. My guess is couple pieces of bad brass or really old brittle brass.

If you didn't damage the first barrel, but henry replaced it, sounds like a defect to me. Maybe oversize chamber causing brass fatigue. Maybe a rough chamber. Did you get sticky extraction with either barrel?

[BrutalAB]

Love my henry 357. Great to know their warranty is so good.
I suspect it is cheaper for them overall to replace barrels than it is to diagnose and repair them. Probably most customers are happier that way too. Win win.

But no idea what caused the problem.

But would a soft boolit pushed from muzzle and out the chamber grab the broke brass and push it out with the boolit? Just throwing an idea out.

[Winger Ed.]

But would a soft boolit pushed from muzzle and out the chamber grab the broke brass and push it out with the boolit?

I never had to try it. I'd guess it to be a 'maybe'.
The chamber is a bigger diameter than the bore/boolit, but the case walls might take up the slack and push it on out.
If I had to try it, I'd use a wooden dowel rod inside the barrel.
A Brass rod would probably be OK, but I'm real retentive about what goes down a barrel, especially from the front.

[brewer12345]

FWIW, if you feel the need to use 2400, I would opt for 357 brass. It is designed for higher pressures and should hold up better for heavier loads. I shoot a ton of 38 special in my 357 Rossi, but my loads are typically the top end of standard pressure 38 spec.

[swheeler]

That is some great warranty from Henry, above and beyond! I will make a mental note of this.

[swamp]

For what it is worth. If it happens again, use a bronze brush. Run the cleaning rod down the barrel and install the brush on the rod. Pull in till it grabs the case and then push it into the action. Less chance to hurt the barrel. Have used this method to remove separated brass in a couple of lever guns.
swamp

[David2011]

Watchdog, welcome to CastBoolits!

You might also consider using only .357 brass even for lighter loads. That will prevent the carbon ring buildup at the mouth of .38 Special cartridges that could make chambering .357s difficult to impossible. Of course, the carbon ring can be removed but it’s easier to just avoid the cause.

[robg]

had the same problem with some 44mag factory brass .brittle or poorly annealed brass .try some new cases if it happens then its a chamber problem.

[Wayne Smith]

If it happens again get some cerrosafe from Rotometals and make a chamber cast. It will grab the brass and pull it out.

[Dusty Bannister]

After searching through the reloading manuals, I came up with data in the Hornady Handbook Vol II. 38 special, 158 grain lead RN MAX load 10.6 gr 2400. As others have pointed out, the 38 special brass is not intended for that kind of pressure.

[Thumbcocker]

For what it is worth. If it happens again, use a bronze brush. Run the cleaning rod down the barrel and install the brush on the rod. Pull in till it grabs the case and then push it into the action. Less chance to hurt the barrel. Have used this method to remove separated brass in a couple of lever guns.
swamp

This!

[Larry Gibson]

If it happens again get some cerrosafe from Rotometals and make a chamber cast. It will grab the brass and pull it out.

^^^ What he said

Shame to lose 2 barrels to a simple case separation. Using cerrosafe is easy.

With brass or steel rod with a jag and tight fitting patch insert from muzzle to just in front of the chamber. Leave rod in barrel. Put rifle in padded vise vertically with action open.

I use a large GI spoon with the front edges bent up to form a trough that fits into such actions to pour the melted cerrosafe into the chamber.

Melt the cerrosafe in the spoon (wear a glove) using a propane torch. It melts fast at a relatively low temp.

Pour melted cerrosafe into the chamber filling it to the chamber mouth. Let the cerrosafe cool for a few minutes only. Do not go do something else thinking you'll get back to it. The cerrosafe will expand after a while making it difficult to get out. After 3 - 5 minutes to cool tap the end of the rod and the cerrosafe will pop out with the separated case. The "plug" can simply be re-melted in the spoon again and the separated case removed with tweezers or other tool. The cerrosafe is re-usable over and over again.

Much easier done than said.....

As mentioned new brass may be in order. You might also look at how much the cases expand in the Henry chamber compared to how much your sizing die sizes them. Perhaps too much?

[SSGOldfart]

Careful as I was, I managed to gouge the chamber. I thought about trying to grind it smooth, but concluded I was screwed. I have split lots of cases, but I never heard of breaking one in half. What happen? How would that happen? How would pressure do that?

Headspace issue could have been your problem,if so Henry should have fixed the issues first time they replaced the barrel???

[Burnt Fingers]

Any competent gunsmith can remove the remainder of the brass in the chamber in a couple of minutes.

If you're getting case separation on 38 Special brass there's something or many things wrong.

1. Too hot of a load for the brass
2. Brass that's been overworked, see #1

Straight wall pistol brass behaves differently than bottleneck brass.

1. There's no expander ball to stretch the brass when resizing like there is in bottleneck brass
2. It tends to shrink after repeated firings instead of stretch, see #1
3. It normally splits vertically instead of around the brass

If you get a case separation don't use pointed metal instruments to remove it. No screwdrivers, no picks, no awl, stuff like that.

[waksupi]

Broken cases can be removed with paper towel. Close the action, and start packing small pieces of paper towel down into the chamber using a cleaning rod. Keep packing it in TIGHT! until you have the chamber and barrel packed to a couple inches ahead of the chamber. Did I mention TIGHT??!!

Then open the action, put the rod down the bore, and give it a sharp rap. This will usually remove the casing. If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Works pretty well on straight cases, never had to do it with a bottleneck, but would most likely work.

[lar45]

Don't know how close it is, but Quickload says 17.6kpsi for 11gn of 2400 in a 38 spl case.

My Rossi 45 Colt has an overly large chamber.
Could the problem be from an oversized chamber in his 357 Henry?
I'd suggest getting some Cerrosafe chamber casting alloy. Follow Larry's instructions to make a chamber cast. Then measure it and see just how large it is.
If it's overly large, then repeated firings will over expand the brass. Sizing compresses the brass. Both of these things work harden it to the point that when the now hard brittle brass is fired, it will crack.

You could either anneal all of your brass cases. Or start over with a new batch.

When annealing, generally just the case neck and mouth is heated, but I might be inclined to anneal about 1/2 the length of the case to make sure the body is softer to stop the cracking. Just be sure to never heat the case head.
Other people might weigh in the weather or not to anneal the body, if it's a good or bad idea.

Another thought would be to only neck size your fired cases. Just size down far enough to hold the bullet tight. But then again, if the chamber is oversized then this might just create a new place for the brass to crack and separate.

I think I'd start with a chamber cast and go from there.

[Thin Man]

When Henry first opened their business they offered free lifetime warranty on their rifles. As time passed they reduced "lifetime" to a shorter time span. Came the day when the owner of a Henry .22 came to our shop asking to have the factory correct or replace the lifter assembly on his rifle that was not feeding up correctly. When I called Henry they stated their warranty would not cover this procedure. I explained that the owner bought this rifle within the first or second year of production, the rifle looks unfired, and he even brought in the original 50-round box of ammo he bought with the rifle (that box still contained about 35 rounds of ammo in it)! The Henry rep allowed they would take a look at the rifle so we shipped it to them. After a reasonable time Henry returned the rifle to us with a completely new lifter assembly in it, no cost for the correction or shipping. The owner was thrilled to have the problem chased away and I was very impressed with their warranty. This all happened last year.

[Mr Peabody]

Broken cases can be removed with paper towel. Close the action, and start packing small pieces of paper towel down into the chamber using a cleaning rod. Keep packing it in TIGHT! until you have the chamber and barrel packed to a couple inches ahead of the chamber. Did I mention TIGHT??!!

Then open the action, put the rod down the bore, and give it a sharp rap. This will usually remove the casing. If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Works pretty well on straight cases, never had to do it with a bottleneck, but would most likely work.

Works Great!

[jsizemore]

My old Speer #6 manual shows 9.5 gr of 2400 to start and 10.5 max. RCBS Cast Bullet Manual #1 starts at 9 gr and max at 10 gr. RCBS also used magnum primers.