20:1 alloy for hollow points?

[gun toting monkeyboy]

I am looking for something other than my normal mystery lead alloys from random sources online. I actually broke down and bought some purpose-made 20:1 bars. My question is this: is it a good choice for .38 Special and .44 Special hollow points? Neither caliber is going to be loaded to more than 800-900 fps, and they will be used in a 150-ish grain and 220-ish grain hollow point respectively. Will that work? I know Elmer Keith recommended it almost a century ago, but if I recall, he was working with hotter loads, up to almost 1400 fps. And yes, I know that he went to a 16:1 alloy for the Magnum stuff. However, can I expect at least moderate expansion at my target velocities? Or would I be better served going to a 30:1 alloy? In the past, I was just fine with whatever. But now, with supplies being limited, and the fact that the .44 Special is on my CCW license, it actually matters to me.

-Mb

[Walks]

It's what A lot of folks are still using for HP's.
Worked well for me in the Past, I wouldn't hesitate to cast HP's with it today.

I would NEVER use cast in a SD firearm.

[Gamsek]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210204/115bbe424ea4756d585b582c3c8f964d.jpg
20:1 and 16:1 Family photo....you are safe, I rarely go over 950 fps.

[gun toting monkeyboy]

I have plenty of JHP premium self defense ammunition in other calibers for the guns I carry more. The problem is .44 Special and bullets that are designed to expand at .44 Special velocities are nonexistent at the moment. So if I decide to carry one, I have to cook up my own ammo. ;) Don't worry, for the most part, I use a Shield and HDTs.

[ACC]

I am looking for something other than my normal mystery lead alloys from random sources online. I actually broke down and bought some purpose-made 20:1 bars. My question is this: is it a good choice for .38 Special and .44 Special hollow points? Neither caliber is going to be loaded to more than 800-900 fps, and they will be used in a 150-ish grain and 220-ish grain hollow point respectively. Will that work? I know Elmer Keith recommended it almost a century ago, but if I recall, he was working with hotter loads, up to almost 1400 fps. And yes, I know that he went to a 16:1 alloy for the Magnum stuff. However, can I expect at least moderate expansion at my target velocities? Or would I be better served going to a 30:1 alloy? In the past, I was just fine with whatever. But now, with supplies being limited, and the fact that the .44 Special is on my CCW license, it actually matters to me.

-Mb

Here is what I know. Any bullet harder then 12BHN probably won't expand. For bullets I want to expand, I keep them around 10.5 BHN. 20:1 alloy should give you around a 10 or a smidge over.

Hope this helps.

ACC

[ACC]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210204/115bbe424ea4756d585b582c3c8f964d.jpg
20:1 and 16:1 Family photo....you are safe, I rarely go over 950 fps.

Any of the bullets in that picture not hollow points? MY solid points if cast soft will expand to dime size.

ACC

[Gamsek]

Any of the bullets in that picture not hollow points? MY solid points if cast soft will expand to dime size.

ACC

All non expanded are solids, only MP 432-395 HBWC nose flattened a bit. As I said, none of those are over 950fps and I assume- just assume- you used over 1200fps to get dime size expansion?
Steel plates don’t count[emoji6]My are from soaked soft paper, water....

[onelight]

I have plenty of JHP premium self defense ammunition in other calibers for the guns I carry more. The problem is .44 Special and bullets that are designed to expand at .44 Special velocities are nonexistent at the moment. So if I decide to carry one, I have to cook up my own ammo. ;) Don't worry, for the most part, I use a Shield and HDTs.
The Speer gold dots have a good chance of expanding I use the Underwood factory loads in my 3" gp100 they are around 850fps from it . But if I was not worried about over penetration where I carry it I would be fine with a large flat point or wc bullet and those would be better in some situations in my opinion .

[gun toting monkeyboy]

Alas, those are about as available as primers right now. During normal times, I wouldn't even consider carrying home loads, let alone cast bullets. But San Diego only expanded their number of guns you could put on your permit from 3 to unlimited about 6 months after Covid hit. So while many of the guns on my permit have store-bought, purpose-built self defense ammunition, not all of them did. Several months of searching failed to turn up any reasonable-priced ammunition. Or in the case of .44 Special, any ammunition at all. So it is cast loads or nothing if I want to add them to the carry rotation. As for the .38 Special, I have several old revolvers that have the sights regulated for 158 grain lead bullets. Since they are still incredibly accurate with those, and they don't normally figure into concealed carrying, coming up with the best hollow points I can for those is still somewhat worthwhile. Again, I normally feed them swaged 158 grain LSWCHP from the major manufacturers. Those are soft enough to deform if you drop them on a hard surface. But they are perfect for recreating the old FBI load. But since those have also all but vanished, I am back to casting my own, or using plain old lead RN bullets, which are next to useless if they ever need to be used in real life.

-Mb

[ACC]

All non expanded are solids, only MP 432-395 HBWC nose flattened a bit. As I said, none of those are over 950fps and I assume- just assume- you used over 1200fps to get dime size expansion?
Steel plates don’t count[emoji6]My are from soaked soft paper, water....

About 1300.

ACC

[fredj338]

20-1 should work fine down to about 900fps. Below that, you need an aggressive HP to get reliable expansion or go a bit softer at 25-1.

[white eagle]

20-1 will be just fine
just load them up and shoot

[gun toting monkeyboy]

BTW ACC, what is the one in the center there that looks like a green trashcan? The one right next to the blue one with the penta cavity? It looks like the old .455 Webley Mk III.

[cwlongshot]

20-1 should work fine down to about 900fps. Below that, you need an aggressive HP to get reliable expansion or go a bit softer at 25-1.

Its going to vari depending on HP size. But rifle size hp and 20:1 its 100% @ 1200

Larger HP closer to 1000fps

16:1 is good for smaller HP to 1500 fps.

Larger HP closer to 1250 fps.

This is what I find in my wet news print.

CW

[cwlongshot]

There is a TON OF INFORMATION from one of our members here. He has done a ton of work with allots testing and recording all in Videos on uTube.

https://youtube.com/channel/UCi5mfCQYNW1hfrgepvqCDsg

Then over on the Reloaders Net work and Discord. Loads of Bacon has done exhaustive hours doing the same even a bit more in depth by making all information available on a Google sheet.

https://youtube.com/c/LoadsofBacon

Anyone interested owes each of these guys a HUGE THANK YOU!

CW

[Gamsek]

BTW ACC, what is the one in the center there that looks like a green trashcan? The one right next to the blue one with the penta cavity? It looks like the old .455 Webley Mk III.

It is a reversed 44 holowbase, MP 432-395 HBWC

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210205/948a1bc137551e09f85ae7b002a63bdc.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210205/3a816265e2cd7d2d0e4309de1bf0900b.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210205/0892c928c50c3763420958ed1892f226.jpg

[Old School Big Bore]

I cast the M-P HBWCs in .30/.32, .358, .410, .433 and .454. I load them as match WCs in .30 Carbine, .32-20, .38/357, .41 Mag, .44 Spl/Mag, .45 AutoRim and .45 Colt. I load them as cup points as well, in all those calibers. Note that when I say "magnum", they're just put up in magnum brass to fit them to the chamber better than having the special-in-a-magnum-chamber step. They aren't anywhere near magnum velocities. When I load them as cup points, I leave the grease groove closest to the skirt empty and use it as a crimp groove (they get sized for part of the die's depth from each direction so the skirts are a slip fit in the throat). As I PC more and more of my cast boolits, this upside-down lubrisizing to avoid filling one groove will cease to be an issue.
My G-P alloy for the last couple years has been COWWs + 2% pewter, as it gives me really good fill-out whether I'm casting solids, HPs or these thin-skirted HBs. I'm now running low on that alloy and recently smelted some WWs, and in order to make the HPs and HBs a bit more conducive to expansion, I'm trying to figure out the ratio of COWW to soft Pb to sufficient pewter to ensure a good fill-out, and hoping to roughly equal the 20:1 hardness. Anyone got that math handy?
Ed <><

[Forrest r]

It depends more on your hp depth & design when targeting a specific velocity for the alloy your using. If you state what bullet/hp design you'll be using people who have cast/used that specific bullet can chime in.

A good place to start is 1bhn ='s 1000fps. Blanket statements of yes/no are hard to make when you don't say if your using a standard .156" hp pin or a huge Mihec round pin or penta pin.

Testing different 44spl hp's from common molds back in 1953. They used 10 to 1, 20 to 1 & 40 to 1 in their testing.
http://www.goodrichfamilyassoc.org/44_Special_Articles/44%20spl%20-%20may%201953%20american%20rifleman.pdf

[Cosmic_Charlie]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210204/115bbe424ea4756d585b582c3c8f964d.jpg
20:1 and 16:1 Family photo....you are safe, I rarely go over 950 fps.

Great looking results there!

[OS OK]

I have done a bit of testing with HP's of various profiles...one rule of thumb has come up in testing at pistol velocities @ say 11 hundred fps and less.

To start your experimenting/proving of your loads and find immediate success that is measurable...do this:

BHN should be a value of 1 per every 100 fps you intend to shoot the HP at & that applies to distance also.
If that HP is meant to perform at say 100 yards then that bhn/velocity ratio needs to be correct at 100 yards.

HP's have a 'window' of velocity in which they perform well, meaning they will either start to expand or fully mushroom and roll that mushroom back...but, in that window of performance the HP retains it's weight and doesn't fragment.
This means you have to learn to blend and test over time your melt, I speak of Pb & Sn blends...that's the interesting part. Shooting them is the fun part.
Just as in the picture above...a successful HP must retain at least 95% of it's weight and remain intact.
That's just my idea of successful testing, it's not a rule of thumb anyone like Elmer left with us to ponder.