Info needed on .45 Colt Conversion

[Glocktopuss]

Hello to all. This is my first post as a new member. Im posting here and wasn't really sure if this is the appropriate spot or not.

I purchased and built as a kit, a Pieta 1858 New Army Remington .44 black powder pistol over 25 years ago. I shot it a few times and found it to be a bother. It has been sitting in my safe for years without seeing the light for a very long time. Recently I purchased a Howell .45 Colt conversion cylinder. I figured I would make a safe queen into something I can use and shoot with. I am very experienced with shooting and some experience in reloading, but have little to no knowledge on conversions, cowboy ammo or casting my own bullets.

I understand that I should only shoot .45 Colt Cowboy rounds under 850 FPS. My first question is what particular rounds are safe to fire in this gun?

I also have an interest in hand loading my own rounds. If I plan to do that what are the appropriate type bullet to use? What would be a good weight bullet for reasonable accuracy? What is a good powder to achieve these speeds?

I also have an interest in casting my own bullets. I have been making jig and sinkers for fishing since I was 14 years old, I have all the equipment and well over 400-lbs of lead bars poured and stored. What is involved in pouring my own bullets?
Please explain all of this to me as if I were a 5-years-old since I am so new to this type of shooting and want to be as safe as possible.

Thank you in advance for any information.

Jay

[Outpost75]

A good question which I hear alot.

First off, does your kit revolver have a steel frame? If it has a brass frame I don't recommend a cartridge conversion at all because the gun will shoot loose in short order.

Second, the fixed sights on the cap & ball sixguns are generally regulated for round balls or light conical bullets less than 200 grains. The heavier 250-grain bullets commonly used in .45 Colt factory loads will shoot high. Standard-pressure loads which approximate factory ammunition with 250-255-grain bullets and don't exceed 14,000 psi are OK to shoot, but heavier bullets probably won't hit where the sights are aligned.

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 4th Edition (2010) features a wide selection of data for cowboy loads in the .45 Colt with 200-grain bullets on p. 284, as well as for the more common heavier bullets on following pages. Most of the data lists pressures for the starting loads as well as for the maximums. I would buy some 200-grain cast bullets to try before investing in a mold, unless you already have one.

Best results in the .45 Colt will generally be with fast-burning powders which are easily ignited and burn completely at low pressures and which tolerate the large amount of free airspace in the case. Bullseye, TiteGroup, 700X, Red Dot or Trail Boss are all good choices. I would suggest a 5 grains with any of these powders as good for initial shooting trials. The starting loads will give you about 750-800 fps with a 200-grain bullet similar to the Lee #452-200RF at mild pressures not exceeding about 10,000 psi. For recreational shooting I believe you will find them satisfactory.

If it would happen that point of impact with these suggested loads is low, simply substitute a heavier bullet, such as 230 to 250 grains. If point of impact happens to be high, then try a lighter bullet such as the Lee #452-160F.

Point of impact for right or left windage is affected very much by grip and how you hold the gun, as well as by recoil. I would concentrate upon finding a load which groups well and shoots close to correct elevation before attempting to make any sight corrects to change point of impact to the right of left of the aiming point.

276838

[DougGuy]

Hi Jay, I think you are setting yourself a steep learning curve to start out with. Handloading is pretty much a sizeable undertaking starting from scratch, and I think you would be much better off starting with the 45 Colt in a modern revolver. Ruger Blackhawk, there are several models which would be great platforms for a beginner. 45 Colt is an excellent cartridge to start learning to handload for, it's precisely where I started my knowledge some 40ish years ago, and there are some here that have been at it for a LOT longer.

Using a conversion cylinder can be somewhat of a challenge for an experienced shooter, handloader, and you need some degree of firearms abilities to manage such a task, you don't need to be a gunsmith but the more you know about it, the better off you are.

This is a great site for both endeavors, it is possible to do the conversion then learn to load for it, yes. It's just more practical IMHO to learn the reloading first, then attempt to load for your conversion. With loading for a known and well accepted platform like the Blackhawk, any problems you have can be dealt with easily, where the same problems with a conversion cylinder can be daunting even for an experienced handloader.

[Glocktopuss]

Outpost75,
Thank you for your response. Yes, my gun has the steel frame. Do you think I need to slug my barrel to find the correct bullet diameter? I do not have the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. I'll have to look for a copy. I can’t find any .45 Colt anywhere. If I were to buy a bullet mold and cast my own bullets do they have to be lubed? And if so, how does that work?

DougGuy,
I guess I understated my experience with firearms and reloading. I would not need to buy anything to reload other than the .45 Colt dies. I just don’t know about reloading cast bullets and cowboy loads
Part of my interest and fun is working it out and getting the gun running properly. I’m searching for knowledge to flatten my learning curve. I understand your point but my interest lies in reloading for the gun I have and have no interest in getting another. I would like to know what problems there are with conversion cylinders that can be daunting. That will help a lot.

Jay

[DougGuy]

Part of my interest and fun is working it out and getting the gun running properly. I’m searching for knowledge to flatten my learning curve. I understand your point but my interest lies in reloading for the gun I have and have no interest in getting another. I would like to know what problems there are with conversion cylinders that can be daunting. That will help a lot.

Jay

Mainly getting the cylinder fitted to the gun. I took your original post to mean you were new to reloading as well.. I would suggest staying away from the commercially sold hard cast and hard lube boolits, you can buy cast boolits from quite a few sources on the web with softer alloy and soft lube, Missouri Bullet Company, Montana Bullet Works, you could also ask in the boolit exchange for some samples that would help you get started on the right foot with this particular gun.

Generally .452" is the size almost universally used in 45 caliber, and the majority of modern barrels will have a .451" groove diameter. If you push a soft lead ball though the bore, see if it will go into the cylinder throats from the front. It should be a slip fit, it shouldn't have to be forced. If you have to force it, that means throats are smaller than groove diameter, and they will size your .452" boolit down to throat diameter as they are fired, meaning a poor fitment in the bore and possibly leading. The softer alloy will usually obturate enough to overcome this but you are also working with a limited amount of pressure so the softer the alloy, maybe the better. I like to use 50/50+2% which is soft enough to scratch with a thumbnail, it works in just about everything. You might have better luck working with even softer alloy. This is why I would suggest getting some samples, see what your gun likes.

Welcome to the forum!

Edit: If you do the soft lead ball through the bore, and it falls through the cylinder throats like a BB in a paint bucket, well, might need to see what size the throats are, as you will likely want to size to a slip fit in the throats.

The pistol in my avatar is a Uberti Old West model, it has a modern .451" groove diameter barrel, but the cylinder throats are a faithful copy of the 1875 Colt that the gun is modeled after, with .4565" throats. Yeah. I shoot the tried and trusted 454190 boolit, in soft alloy with soft lube sized to .456" and it is deadly accurate, and doesn't lead at all. I often say it's a fly's worst nightmare at 10 yards.

[Glocktopuss]

DougGuy,
Thank you the information and patients with the questions.

So when you say “getting the cylinder fitted to the gun” what exactly are you referring to? If you could go into detail I would be greatly appreciative. Should I slug the cylinder throats to see their size? What would be an acceptable cylinder throat size if the bore is .452 as you suggested? Under what situation should I chamfer the forcing cone? I guess I need to get some .452 cast bullets to try them out.

Jay

[Larry Gibson]

Many times those cylinders need to be fitted to the gun, both to go into the frame and then to time correctly when cocked [the cylinder turning to align with and have the bolt lock into the notch in the cylinder]. Some guns have to have the rear of the barrel faced off enough for a proper barrel/cylinder gap for the cylinder to fit into the frame. The forcing cone should also be reamed to proper dimension.

Some of the conversion cylinders drop in and time just fine as is. However, the forcing cone will probably need to be reamed. At least both the revolvers I fitted conversion cylinders to needed the forcing cone reamed.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Larry sort of covered the question I was going to ask you. How old is your kit, do you have the cylinder conversion yet, and have you tried it in the revolver? Getting a new cylinder to fit, cycle, and lock up properly can be a tricky job. If you're not familiar with doing this, you'd be best advised to seek the assistance of someone who is familiar with these problems. Don't just start filing something, as you may ruin the project. On the other hand, you may get lucky and it might just drop in and function properly. The newer your revolver the better the chances.

DG

[oldsalt444]

I also have a Howell conversion in my Uberti 1858 carbine. The 850 fps is not what's important but rather the pressure of your load. I believe 12,000 psi is what Howell recommends as the max. I have been loading 7.0 gr Titegroup and a 160 gr SWC. Pressures are about 9,000 psi and velocity is 1050 fps per the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook #4. Higher velocity means the bullets will hit lower on the target. Titegroup is ideal for this application because it is not position sensitive in the huge 45 Colt case and the pressures are much lower than other powders.

[Glocktopuss]

My Pieta was purchased as a kit back in 1991. The Howell cylinder fit in well. What is the appropriate/allowable gap that should be between the front of the cylinder and the face of the forcing cone? Do I check it with a feeler gauge? I haven't checked the timing and am really not 100% sure how to do so. Any suggestions? How much reaming of the forcing cone do you suggest, at what angle and should I have a gunsmith preform that?

[Outpost75]

My Pieta was purchased as a kit back in 1991. The Howell cylinder fit in well. What is the appropriate/allowable gap that should be between the front of the cylinder and the face of the forcing cone? Do I check it with a feeler gauge? I haven't checked the timing and am really not 100% sure how to do so. Any suggestions? How much reaming of the forcing cone do you suggest, at what angle and should I have a gunsmith preform that?

Check barrel-cylinder gap with a feeler gage inserted completely through the frame opening between cylinder and barrel.

PASS is the dimension when protruding out both sides of frame window between barrel and cylinder, which does not impair a complete rotation of the cylinder by cycling the action six times.

The usual minimum PASS dimension for a black powder gun is 0.004", because a tighter gap may bind the cylinder when the gun gets "dirty" from black powder fouling.

HOLD is the feeler gage dimension when protruding out both sides of the frame window between barrel and cylinder, which binds rotation so that resistance is felt in a cocking the revolver in single-action.

In modern smokeless powder revolvers the maximum hold dimension is 0.008" on a new gun when measured with fired brass in the chambers. In antique black powder guns up to 0.015" is often observed, but no more than 0.008" is desirable.

In modern smokeless guns at 0.010" cylinder gap the usual factory repair procedure is to fit a new "+" (long) cylinder. The usual gunsmith method is to set the barrel back a thread and refit the cylinder after removing end shake, by shimming or swaging the cylinder bushing on a Colt. The Remington type cylinder does not have a bushing.

If the factory forcing cone in the barrel is smooth and doesn't have circumferential tool marks, I would be inclined to leave it alone. If the gun "spits" and shaves lead, then reaming is a good idea. If you own several revolvers it is maybe worthwhile to buy the tools from Brownell's and learn to do it yourself. But if this is your only revolver I would see how it shoots first and you may not need to spend the money. It's an easy enough gunsmith job. An 11 degree cone is commonly used to remove existing tool marks without enlarging the base diameter of the forcing cone entrance, which should not exceed .480" diameter on a .45 caliber. A quick visual check of forcing cone diameter can be made with a new, unfired, or sized case, which should just enter, or about .470-.475" on a .45, but a fired case should not enter, about .480 for a .45 Colt.

[Glocktopuss]

Outpost75,
So I should use a 0.004 feeler gauge inserted between the cylinder end and the end of the barrel and cock the revolver rotating the cylinder on all six chambers and if I get 0 resistance then I should be good to use as is. is this correct? I will check to see if I have a 0.004 feeler gauge to test and observe the forcing cone to see if its smooth and get back to you all.