Reloading Primers using Prime-All Mixture (Testing Results)

[MUSTANG]

This thread will focus on rebuilding primers using the Prime-All mixture for reloading expended Small Rifle primers. The BOM (Bill of Materials) I use for accomplishing this follows. An Internet Link is provided with each as a potential source/example of each item needed.

BOM:

• (1) Prime-All Repriming Compound
https://sharpshooter-22lr-reloader.myshopify.com/products/prime-all-repriming-compound

• (1) Harbor Freight Plastic Funnel Tray.
https://www.harborfreight.com/easy-sorter-funnel-tray-37081.html

• (2) Small Glass Sample Jars with lids. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08JZG5WN6?pf_rd_r=FN4F17RR7683K1EE68YV&pf_rd_p=5ae2c7f8-e0c6-4f35-9071-dc3240e894a8&pd_rd_r=4c23dee9-5df5-417f-acb5-b1eda2c0a9cb&pd_rd_w=iHMiJ&pd_rd_wg=PFdDJ&ref_=pd_gw_unk&th=1

• Plastic Round Top Swizel Stick. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07R69362K/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

• (1) Glass Shot Glass.
https://www.amazon.com/Thirsty-Rhino-Karan-Round-Glass/dp/B071JD7T1J/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=shot+glass&qid=1612293745&sr=8-5

• (1) set Bamboo Chop Sticks, size to fit & pack primers.
https://www.amazon.com/Set-200-Chopsticks-Units-bamboo/dp/B073XBJK3D/ref=sxts_sxwds-bia-wc-rsf1_0?cv_ct_cx=chopsticks&dchild=1&keywords=chopsticks&pd_rd_i=B073XBJK3D&pd_rd_r=0accd9f5-15c0-4ab1-9a20-fd63500903d2&pd_rd_w=bEYwg&pd_rd_wg=NwTRr&pf_rd_p=5d815bf0-8407-4925-96a4-1fe69f424373&pf_rd_r=16RANACRVMMFQ6W727R7&psc=1&qid=1612294413&s=home-garden&sr=1-1-526ea17f-3f73-4b50-8cd8-6acff948fa5a


• (1) set Stainless Steel Dental Pics. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PN9VVVG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

• Stainless Steel Forceps.
https://www.amazon.com/Fishing-Straight-Hemostat-Forceps-Stainless/dp/B088PBNSWR/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=Forceps&qid=1612294539&sr=8-3

• (1) Hand held Hole Punch; 1/8” Hole (for Small Rifle and Small Pistol foil paper disks). https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B084ZKSR64/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

• (1) Cast Iron Anvil or Small Section Railroad Rail.
https://www.harborfreight.com/15-lb-rugged-cast-iron-anvil-69425.html

• (1) 1/8 inch Punch to remove dimple from Primer Cup. https://www.harborfreight.com/8-piece-punch-set-93424.html

• (1) Hammer (your choice).
https://www.harborfreight.com/16-oz-claw-hammer-66862.html

• (1) 4” drill press vice.
https://www.harborfreight.com/4-inch-jaw-capacity-drill-press-vise-30999.html

• (1) 3” or 4” C-Clamp (My current choice for seating anvils into Primer Cups). https://www.harborfreight.com/3-inch-industrial-c-clamp-37846.html?_br_psugg_q=c+clamp

• (1) Magnifying Glass, 10X.
https://www.amazon.com/Magnifying-Magnifier-Newspaper-Thickened-Observation/dp/B0818K2ZNC/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=Magnifying+Glass+10X&qid=1612294183&s=office-products&sr=1-4

• Shellac 0.5 Ounce can.
https://www.acehardware.com/departments/paint-and-supplies/stains-and-finishes/lacquer/11307

• 91% Alcohol.
https://www.amazon.com/Members-Mark-91-Isopropyl-Alcohol/dp/B01LNWC83U/ref=sr_1_6?crid=20FQFUTBA170Y&dchild=1&keywords=91%25+alcohol+isopropyl&qid=1612297115&sprefix=91%25+also%2Caps%2C286&sr=8-6


• Paper for Primer Foil. (My current choice is Cash Register Receipt Paper from ACE Purchase).

The following Videos provide examples on reloading expended Primers that I used as reference before I began to do experiments myself and develop techniques and data:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InnFDDdtXP4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkHazcrCZl0&t=96s

[MUSTANG]

Reloading Primers using Prime-All Mixture - Test #1.

Randomly pulled 25 expended Small Rifle Primers from a bottle of saved Small expended Rifle Primers. Disassembled anvils from 15 Primers using a sharp sheet rock nail; and holding the primers cup using a set of straight stainless steel forceps. The remaining 10 could not be removed using this technique; it appears the anvil is more deeply set into the cup than the 15 that were removed.

Removed the firing pin indentation using 1/8” Harbor Freight Punch and the primer rested on a piece of Train Rail as a shop anvil. Cleaning was limited to scraping obvious reside from the primer cup.

Mixed one unit of Prime-All primer mixture using their instructions. The package has a tool with a large cup on one end and a small cup on the other end. A unit of mixture consists of: Two Large scoops of Powder Red sticker L2; then One Large scoop of Powder Blue sticker 1; then One Small scoop of Yellow sticker S; then One Small scoop of Green sticker S. Mix well until uniform grey color. This provided enough mixture to fill to the top 15 Small Primer Cups – (with a little bit left over in the plastic mixing cup). For Small Rifle Primers – it will require Seven (7) units of primer mixture to make a hundred primers.

I packed each primer using the end of a chop stick; then placed a drop of Acetone in each primer. Acetone dried quickly; so I waited until it was dried then used 91% alcohol on each primer. Did NOT use a paper disk on these primers. Seated the anvils into the primer and mixture using a small C clamp. After drying; it became apparent that small amounts of primer mixture was able to fall out of the primers through the gaps between the three anvil legs. Use of a “Paper Foil” over the mixture and below the anvil is apparently mandatory to keep mixture in place.

Seated primers into .223 cases using a Lee Hand Primer.

Test results: Did not load powder and ball; but shot in a Savage Axis .223 with 15 seated primers in .223 cases. Shot primers: 5 shots had strong loud report. 10 shots had weak to no report. When cases that had low reports were extracted; they had a reddish smoke rising from the cases, with the inside of the necks having a reddish appearance.

Lessons learned:

(1) Need dental picks to extract anvils. Nail is an expedient but not a good solution.
(2) Probably need to tumble primers in soapy water or Ultra-Sonic Clean in soapy water.
(3) Need a suitable paper foil over packed primer mixture. Will try onion skin paper.
(4) Use a Lee Sizer bottom ram, and a Lee Decapper upside down in press to seat anvils?
(5) The Prime-All mixture is probably highly corrosive. Cleaned rifle with Hoppes #9; see pictures – Primer fouling in the Rifle was pretty significant (probably because of 10 rounds with weak reports.)

276794

[MUSTANG]

Reloading Primers using Prime-All Mixture - Test #2.

Used same 15 expended Small Rifle Primers from previous Test #1. Disassembled anvils from 15 Primers using a sharp sheet rock nail; and holding the primers cup using a set of straight stainless steel forceps.

Removed the firing pin indentation using 1/8” Harbor Freight Punch. This time inverted the punch and hamered out the dimple with the hammer striking the Primer directly (Not the hammer hitting the punch head). Although I saw this on an Internet Video, I did not find this satisfactory as the Punch was unstable. Primer cleaning was accomplished in a Harbor Freight ultrasound cleaner with only Dawn Dish soap.

Mixed one unit of Prime-All primer mixture using their instructions. The package has a tool with a large cup on one end and a small cup on the other end. A unit of mixture consists of: Two Large scoops of Powder Red sticker L2; then One Large scoop of Powder Blue sticker 1; then One Small scoop of Yellow sticker S; then One Small scoop of Green sticker S. Mix well until uniform grey color. This provided enough mixture to fill to the top 15 Small Primer Cups – (with a little bit left over in the plastic mixing cup). For Small Rifle Primers – it will require Seven (7) units of primer mixture to make a hundred primers.

I packed each primer using the end of a chop stick. Then cut out a disk of 9 pound Onion Skin Paper using a 1/8” hand hole punch. Placed the disk over the Prime-All previously packed into the Primer Cup. Then placed a drop of 91% alcohol on top of the paper/foil in each primer. Seated the anvils into the primer and mixture using RCBS Press with a base from a Lee .356 bullet sizing die; and the sizing die screwed into the top, used a Large flat thick washer to use as a flat end to keep the primer from going into the die body. Slight pressure on handle set anvil into the Primer Cup. Let dry for 12 hours before seating into .223 cases using Lee Hand Primer Tool and testing.

Test results: Did not load powder and ball; but shot in a Savage Axis .223 with 15 seated primers in .223 cases. Shot primers: 13 shots had strong loud report, 1 shots had weak report, and 1 had no report but smoked slightly with reddish brown coming out of case. The inside of the necks for most cases have a reddish appearance.

Lessons learned:

(1) Need dental picks to extract anvils. Nail is an expedient but not a good solution.
(2) Probably need to tumble primers in soapy water or Ultra-Sonic Clean in soapy water.
(3) Need a suitable paper foil over packed primer mixture. Will try thicker paper next as the 9lb onion paper did not punch out good circles as over primer mixture foil.
(4) Will allow 24 hours to dry next Test.
(5) The Prime-All mixture is probably highly corrosive. Cleaned rifle with Hoppes #9; see pictures – Primer fouling in the Rifle was pretty significant (probably because of 2 rounds with weak reports.)

276798
(6) If can achieve 100% strong report in testing; will move to “Live Fire” testing with 60 grain .223 Jacketed bullets; hope to also do velocity testing then or subsequent Tests.

[MUSTANG]

Reloading Primers using Prime-All Mixture - Test #3.

Used same 15 expended Small Rifle Primers from previous Test #1. Disassembled anvils from 15 Primers using a sharp sheet rock nail; and holding the primers cup using a set of straight stainless steel forceps.

Removed the firing pin indentation using 1/8” Harbor Freight Punch. This time returned to using the RailiRoad Rail with the cup on the Rail; then the punch and hammer used to iron out the dimple. Primer cleaning was accomplished in a Harbor Freight ultrasound cleaner with only Dawn Dish soap.

Mixed one unit of Prime-All primer mixture using their instructions. The package has a tool with a large cup on one end and a small cup on the other end. A unit of mixture consists of: Two Large scoops of Powder Red sticker L2; then One Large scoop of Powder Blue sticker 1; then One Small scoop of Yellow sticker S; then One Small scoop of Green sticker S. Mix well until uniform grey color. This provided enough mixture to fill to the top 15 Small Primer Cups – (with a little bit left over in the plastic mixing cup). For Small Rifle Primers – it appears it will require Seven (7) units of primer mixture to make a hundred primers.

I packed each primer using the end of a chop stick. Then cut out a disk of light weight Parchment Paper using a 1/8” hand hole punch. Placed the disk over the Prime-All previously packed into the Primer Cup. Then placed a drop of 91% alcohol on top of the paper/foil in each primer. Seated the anvils into the primer and mixture using RCBS Press with a base from a Lee .356 bullet sizing die; and the sizing die screwed into the top, used a Large flat thick washer to use as a flat end to keep the primer from going into the die body. Slight pressure on handle set anvil into the Primer Cup. Let dry for 12 hours before seating into .223 cases using Lee Hand Primer Tool and testing.

Test results: Did not load powder and ball; but shot in a Savage Axis .223 with 15 seated primers in .223 cases. Shot primers: 13 shots had strong loud report, 2 shots had weak report. Some of the primers have developed a slight ridge around the primer base, similar to an over pressure condition in High Pressure Loads with stiff powder loads. It appears this condition was caused by using the RCBS press to seat the anvil into the primer cup; causing the base to get slightly squished/expanded. The inside of the necks for most cases have a reddish appearance.

276799

Lessons learned:

(1) Need dental picks to extract anvils. Nail is an expedient but not a good solution. They are on order.
(2) Probably need to tumble primers in soapy water or Ultra-Sonic Clean in soapy water. Probably clean – then remove the anvils – then clean cups and anvils again to get rid of the crusty primer residue still in some cups.
(3) Need a suitable paper foil over packed primer mixture. Used thin parchment paper this time; but found several partially burned paper disks when the Anvils were removed from the cups. See Picture.
276790
(4) Will allow 24 hours to dry next Test.
(5) The Prime-All mixture is probably highly corrosive. Cleaned rifle with Hoppes #9; see pictures – Primer fouling in the Rifle for Test #3 was as great as it was for Test #2.
(6) Next test will try a lighter paper such as cash register receipt paper for the Paper Disk (paper foils).
(7) Not planning on using powder until I can get a better consistency of ignition. A 10-15% failure to fire ratio for primers is disappointing. More thought and alternative testing required.

[MrWolf]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting your results and looking forward to your continued testing.
Ron

[MUSTANG]

Working with the primer cups, loading Prime-All into the cup; and placing the paper (foil) disk on top of the mixture is more easily accomplished if one makes a tool. Borrowed this technique from one of the videos. All you need is a CCI small Rifle/Pistol plastic primer tray. Drill two or three holes depending on your technique in the "Corner" of a quadrant on the back side of the tray. I used a 13/64 drill bit to make the holes. This is a "Little Sloppy" around the edges but does the job. See pic:

276800

Should also work for Large Rifle/Pistol primer work; just use the correct primer tray to make the tool from.

[El Flaco]

I'm interested in what you find out. Prime All is here i Colo so picked up a couple of bags and put them on the shelf for now. Still got plenty of primers, But you never know how long they'll last. I'll be whatching for your testing.
Thanks

[El Flaco]

Just saw you said the primers were dirty? Yea you need to clean them like your brass.

[MUSTANG]

Comment on materials:

The primer mix will stick to plastic (static cling probably); not nearly as much on the CCI plastic tray. Does stick to the yellow Harbor Freight Funnel tray; use a credit card or your favorite business card (like maybe that used car salesman guy's business card) as "Push broom" to pile up the powder that falls into the pastic tray, and then back into the Primer Powder mixing/or storage container.

The primer mix DOES NOT stick to glass. This is why I called out the Glass storage jars and the Glass Shot glass for mixing the Prime-All powders all together for the Primer Mix. I initially used a Clear Plastic top from a can of Wall Board texture spray to mix in. It worked, and tapping the side would cause the powder to fall into a bottom corner pile; but the mix DOES stick to the plastic (Static Cling).

GLASS is more better for mixing and storing LIMITED AMOUNTS of mixed Prime-All Primer Mix.

CAUTION: The vendor, and a variety of videos all stress mixing SMALL AMOUNTS; same for storing the Mixed Primer Compound. To date I have been only using a single unit (2 + 1 +1 +1) of the components. At a later date I may go to two or even three units; but for my testing no need for a large amount to be mixed at one time. Remember; it is shock sensitive when mixed.

[Traffer]

Note to OP...We know it isn't a real alternative to getting primers....But IT SURE IS FUN ISN'T IT?

[dverna]

Note to OP...We know it isn't a real alternative to getting primers....But IT SURE IS FUN ISN'T IT?

I will never want to get that stir crazy.

[jeff423]

What's next? - reloading 22's.

OMG someone's trying it!

[Doughty]

MUSTANG
In your BOM I see a can of shellac. I *** u me that this is intended for sealing compound into cup, but I did not see where you had tried this. Did I miss it, or is there more to come? I have been basically paralleling your experiments but have not tried a foil over the compound. Factory primers seem to have a hard / dried compound that adheres to the cup. How to do that?

[Scrounge]

If you have corrosive primer compound, you're going to need to use water to clean the firearms you test this in. Hot soapy water is, I believe, traditional, and should work well. I got my primer mix middle of last week, I think I'll wait to let you make as many of the mistakes as possible before I try. :) Thanks!
Bill

[n.h.schmidt]

Hi guys the factory primers are compressed into the cup. I have done this in making percussion caps with the prime -all. I made a rod that barely fit into the cup and put that into a drill press. I could apply what must have been at least 40 to 50 lbs of pressure . That did it. . No explosions all was well. I use a very thin shellac solution ,it's mixed with denatured alcohol. I used that as a binder.Acetone mixed with a drop of Duco Cement also works nicely as a binder. I just used a match stick bottom end as a dip stick to put a small amt. of the binder into the cups. No paper or foil is needed. I rarely get a failure .Maybe one out of a hundred. Note I no longer bother with the drill press to compress the charge. I do still use hand pressure though. Probably 10Lbs. I do work with small batches. Enough to make 20 caps. As a extra safety measure I mix with water and fill the cups while still damp.
n.h.schmidt

[Traffer]

If it ever comes to where we have to do a lot of reloading of primers, I still can imagine for a small investment, being able to reload Berdan primers fast enough and in large enough quantities to really make it worthwhile.
As necessity is the mother of invention...when the time comes I or someone else will start making the drawing dies to manufacture new Berdan primers. Boxer primers could be manufactured at home also but an additional punch operation would be necessary to make the anvils.

[MUSTANG]

MUSTANG
In your BOM I see a can of shellac. I *** u me that this is intended for sealing compound into cup, but I did not see where you had tried this. Did I miss it, or is there more to come? I have been basically paralleling your experiments but have not tried a foil over the compound. Factory primers seem to have a hard / dried compound that adheres to the cup. How to do that?

My next Test post will show use of the mixture of 10 parts 91% Alcohol and 1 part shellac. Parts are placed in a glass jar with lid. Use a sharp Dental pick to load a fine drop on the Dental pick and place on top of the Paper Foil/Primer mix; before placing the anvil on the cup and seating it. Prior to Test #4 I have not used the Shellac Mix. Currently waiting a couple more hours before Testing Firing on Test #4. Wanted to allow 36 hours for the "Primer Mix" to totally dry out.

[MUSTANG]

If you have corrosive primer compound, you're going to need to use water to clean the firearms you test this in. Hot soapy water is, I believe, traditional, and should work well. I got my primer mix middle of last week, I think I'll wait to let you make as many of the mistakes as possible before I try. :) Thanks!
Bill


My hours of Mozilla Firefox based search lead to some interesting items I'll share along the way. (Used to use Google Foo - but their spying and politics have caused me to war off Google Foo for anything).

There are a wide variety of "Positions" on cleaning corrosive primer compounds. These tend to be reduced to Hot Soapy Water or Hoppe's #9. Both positions decry the other as being plagued with problems. Found that Hoppe's # 9 was actually created to address cleaning of Corrosive Primer residue attacking the chambers/barrels of rifles (Hoppe's #1 to #8 were unsuccessful). When I first went into the USMC there were still "Old Salts" around from the 1940's and 1950's who swore by (at) cleaning with hot soapy water.

[MUSTANG]

Hi guys the factory primers are compressed into the cup. I have done this in making percussion caps with the prime -all. I made a rod that barely fit into the cup and put that into a drill press. I could apply what must have been at least 40 to 50 lbs of pressure . That did it. . No explosions all was well. I use a very thin shellac solution ,it's mixed with denatured alcohol. I used that as a binder.Acetone mixed with a drop of Duco Cement also works nicely as a binder. I just used a match stick bottom end as a dip stick to put a small amt. of the binder into the cups. No paper or foil is needed. I rarely get a failure .Maybe one out of a hundred. Note I no longer bother with the drill press to compress the charge. I do still use hand pressure though. Probably 10Lbs. I do work with small batches. Enough to make 20 caps. As a extra safety measure I mix with water and fill the cups while still damp.
n.h.schmidt


^ +1. Will discuss some of this in later Test Data.

[Froogal]

How long will it be before someone sets up a "custom primer reloading" business?

[dverna]

R
How long will it be before someone sets up a "custom primer reloading" business?

Never in this country.

If I was connected to the upper echelons of the Democratic Party, I would try getting primers out of China and setting up distribution. They would likely cost $8/1000 wholesale.

[Traffer]

R

Never in this country.

If I was connected to the upper echelons of the Democratic Party, I would try getting primers out of China and setting up distribution. They would likely cost $8/1000 wholesale.

Maybe there is a use for Hunter after all. Anybody here buddies with him?

[Doughty]

Yesterday I finished reloading a primer using the Prime-All system. I packed compound into the cup using a tool I made out of plastic material. I packed it in until the cup was about half full. I then put a drop of acetone in that and let it dry for over 24 hrs. I noticed that the compound was very fragile and ready to crumble. I then punched a dot out of tracing (paper patching) paper and placed it over the compound. I then laid the anvil on top of the paper before very carefully seating it all into a .45 ACP case. I loaded the case with 5.0 grains of Bullseye under a 200 grain Lee rnfp.

Today it was off to the range with the loaded round and a 1911. I loaded the round into a magazine and loaded the pistol, aimed at a target and pressed the trigger. BANG! As immediate, loud and sharp as you could hope for. Even hit the target. I examined the fired case and did NOT see the rust-like residue in it like I had seen when only firing the primed case. Still cleaned the pistol with hot soap and water though.

Next is to find a way to keep the priming compound in place without the paper dot. Then see about making multiple primers with a high degree of reliability. Fun, and I still have my eyes and all my fingers.

[MUSTANG]

Yesterday I finished reloading a primer using the Prime-All system. I packed compound into the cup using a tool I made out of plastic material. I packed it in until the cup was about half full. I then put a drop of acetone in that and let it dry for over 24 hrs. I noticed that the compound was very fragile and ready to crumble. I then punched a dot out of tracing (paper patching) paper and placed it over the compound. I then laid the anvil on top of the paper before very carefully seating it all into a .45 ACP case. I loaded the case with 5.0 grains of Bullseye under a 200 grain Lee rnfp.

Today it was off to the range with the loaded round and a 1911. I loaded the round into a magazine and loaded the pistol, aimed at a target and pressed the trigger. BANG! As immediate, loud and sharp as you could hope for. Even hit the target. I examined the fired case and did NOT see the rust-like residue in it like I had seen when only firing the primed case. Still cleaned the pistol with hot soap and water though.

Next is to find a way to keep the priming compound in place without the paper dot. Then see about making multiple primers with a high degree of reliability. Fun, and I still have my eyes and all my fingers.


My thoughts are:

(1) I found Acetone dried to quickly; reason I am using 91% alcohol.
(2) Place the paper disk over the Prime-All you packed; then pack again over the disk.
(3) Put a small or two small drops of the Alcohol/Shellac on top of the paper disk/Prime-All mixture in the Primer Cup. The Shellac in the 10 to 1 mixture (10 parts 91% alcohol and 1 part shellac) penetrates the paper and causes the primer mixture to become a "Solid" after drying.
(4) Place the anvil on top of the paper disk/Prime-All; then seat using whatever technique you are using for seating the anvil. You want to seat the anvil while the mixture is wet so it is not shock sensitive.

[MUSTANG]

Reloading Primers using Prime-All Mixture - Test #4.

Used same 15 expended Small Rifle Primers from previous Tests #1, #2, and #3. Disassembled anvils from 15 Primers using a small diameter sharp dental pick. This tool makes it much easier than the sheet rock nail. Still hold the primers cup using a set of straight stainless steel forceps.

Removed the firing pin indentation using 1/8” Harbor Freight Punch. This time returned to using the RailiRoad Rail with the cup on the Rail; then the punch and hammer used to iron out the dimple. Primer cleaning was accomplished in a Harbor Freight ultrasound cleaner with Dawn Dish soap; but this time I added two tablespoons of White Vinegar to aid in cleaning.

Mixed one unit of Prime-All primer mixture as described in Tests #1, 2,& 3. Once again I packed each primer with prime-all mix using the end of a chop stick. For Test #4; I changed paper and used a 1/8 inch paper disk cut from Cash Register tape. I also changed and used a mixture of 10 parts 91% alcohol and 1 part Shellac from Ace Hardware; placing one or two fine drops of the mixture on top of the paper disk – soaking into the Prime-All mixture.

For this test; I Seated the anvils into the primer cup and mixture using a 4 Inch C – Clamp and a Large flat thick washer to use as a flat end on top of the Primer/Anvil during seating. The C-Clamp operates as a screw press. The use of the Reloading press was causing the primer cups to form an expansion ring/ridge along the base of the Primer Cup.

277009

The C-Clamp needs to have a Flat jaw on the bottom so the primer cup can be seated. I have smaller cast C-Clamps that has a ridge down the middle of the Jaw area; no good as the primer will not sit flat. A picture of the C-Clamp Screw Press I set up follows.

277007


The following picture provides a close up view of a primer sitting on the Flat Jaw and the metal washer used to hold on top of the Anvil before screwing down the “Press”. Since the Anvil is a Tripod; some attention to detail is required to ensure it goes straight down on all three legs. Once the anvil is seated by screwing in until snug (often I can FEEL the anvil slip into the Primer Cup and Seat as I screw the press down); use a magnifying glass in order to ensure all three legs were seated squarely and no part of the anvil sticks up above the primer cup lip. If there is one side of the Anvil higher than the lip; then use the washer in that area while screwing down the Clamp once again to seat the primer edge, the tripod anvil will shift slightly in the cup doing this, and all should be well.

277008

I then take the completed (still wet) primer and seat it into a .223 case; ensuring it is fully seated. I let the primer mix dry in the brass. Test #4 has about 60 hours drying time.



Test results: Shot 15 primers: All 15 shots had strong loud report.

The reddish coating on brass and in the barrel continues; at a later date will load powder and ball and see if the reddish coating on brass and in the barrel persists – or is reduced with a full powder pressure test.

Success with 15 of 15 strong reports is encouraging; but will have to see if we have accomplished long term higher reliability.

And yes; cleaned the rifle within the hour of Testing the Primers.

[Doughty]

I remember reading somewhere that the legs of the anvil should protrude above the cup "somewhat". I believe the rational was that, when the primer was seated into the pocket, the anvil would be forced into the priming compound, crushing it "somewhat", and making a more reliable ignition. I have tried it both ways and haven't observed a difference.

[Duckdog]

Outstanding thread and data. I find that you'll have much better ignition if you actually weigh the components in place of using the dippers. This stuff is fun to mess with. I have reloaded 22 LR with success. It's really not about the primers or reloading 22 LR right now. It's a skill that we can all learn with any luck.

[dverna]

Outstanding thread and data. I find that you'll have much better ignition if you actually weigh the components in place of using the dippers. This stuff is fun to mess with. I have reloaded 22 LR with success. It's really not about the primers or reloading 22 LR right now. It's a skill that we can all learn with any luck.


I disagree. It is about reloading for some of us. This will not be fun for most. It is not fun to make 30 primers an hour that may or may not work. Seems even desperate people are not that desperate. Most will quit shooting rather than remanufacture primers.

For the person who shoots 1000 rounds or less a year, this may work. If that same person had invested in $150 in 5000 primers, they would have been able to ride out the shortage. That is the lesson to be learned.

For volume shooters, every method to date is unsatisfactory and I do not see how that will change.

BTW, seeing as this is so much fun for you, you must have made a couple of hundred by now. Would you share how much it cost to make 200, how many worked, and how long it took.

[Markopolo]

great thread.. I nominate for stickey material

[Sleeping Dog]

Really interesting stuff. I really like how you have such details notes on your tests. I think this is well worth while, even if it is just peace of mind. For me, I still have plenty of primers, but I like the idea of being able to shoot as much as I want without tapping into my "reserve".

For my primer reloading, I've mostly trying then out in my 38 Spl revolver. When I've been using Prime-All and H-48, I've not wanted to mess up guns that have a lot of small parts where I'd have to do a major breakdown to clean it all. Thus, simple revolver for those test.

One thing that I have run across in my research.... Primers for the AR have been developed with a harder anvil. This is to avoid slam fires. As such, when I shoot my reloaded primers, it will be using primers from military 5.56mm cases. I have about 20,000 primers saved up.


I've just started working with the Lead Nitratohypophosphite primer compound (EPH 20), which works quite well, but I haven't done a big test with it yet (that is next). However, now that I've gotten a non-corrosive compound (that is basically like commercial), I am willing to put it in my auto and AR.

The other night, I did 30 primers in about 20 minutes. I think as I practice and develop better technique, I can improve this (consider the first time you reloaded). I've only fired 8 of them and they all fired.

I have the Prime-all and I asked if it was H-48, which Sharpshooter said no. I think it is close to that, but his stuff is convienent and easy to use.
Prime-all
https://sharpshooter-22lr-reloader.myshopify.com/products/prime-all-repriming-compound

Mark at Aardvark Reloading has quite a lot of useful information and a whole document on primers.
http://aardvarkreloading.com

Cheers
Eric

[Sleeping Dog]

Things that I've tried

-- I am using the back end of a drill bit (the flat part). I put the head of the drill bit into a vice and set the cup on top. A few light strokes with a hammer makes the primer cup pretty flat.

-- I just use the side of a pair of plyers to seat the anvils. After the compound is put in and wet, I put the flat part of a pliers on the cup/anvil and press down. In very short order, the anvil is flush with the edges of the cup. Sometimes, there is a click but not all of the time.

[Doughty]

Duckdog,
If you have weighed any amounts for primers, could you tell us what weights you've used?

I also agree with you, that for me at least, it is about learning a new skill.

Don, you have made it evident (in this and other threads) that you don't like the idea of reloading primers, and that if everybody had been as smart and well off as you, that they would have bought tens of thousands of primers long ago. For those not in your situation, threads like this might be of interest. I am reminded of the ones, many years ago, who expressed similar sentiments about reloading and casting bullets.

[Idz]

When I was playing with primers and percussion caps I tested them two ways. First I built a drop tube to drop a known weight from various heights to measure the all-fire energy. Second I placed a piece of paper below the caps to 'photograph' the blast pattern and intensity. I got distracted before implementing my 3rd test of placing a cellphone a few feet away and graph the explosion sound profile. My percussion caps were all quite reliable and consistent in the tests but primers needed more work. I began working on making primers with the H48 compound before life intervened.

[MUSTANG]

Outstanding thread and data. I find that you'll have much better ignition if you actually weigh the components in place of using the dippers. This stuff is fun to mess with. I have reloaded 22 LR with success. It's really not about the primers or reloading 22 LR right now. It's a skill that we can all learn with any luck.


The shifting from VOLUME to WEIGHT for mixing components could be problematic. In the case of Prime-All there are 4 components. Each of these components has a specific density/mass. Also texture (fluffiness of the material).

I have also the last 6 months been playing with materials for making Black Powder based on many posts on this site and others. One of the factoids I located was that back 300 years ago and previous; there were references to the "Recipe" for making Black Powder. These did not provide guidance on Volume or Weight for components. Turns out the Recipes were based on weight - not volume (i.e. https://www.ihaveadotcom.com/Pyro/BP/black_powder_101.html

In the case of Prime-All; the mixture is set by the retailer as a VOLUME measurement - not a weight measurement. We could take and do a conversion by say taking 10X the mix of each component measured out by Volume, then weigh the total, and convert each item to a "Weight" ration. But; for now the volumes I am dealing with are small and I am going to stick to Volume Measuring each of the components according to the Mfg directions. Should I get into larger scale production; the Weight Measuring high make sense at a later date - BUT careful measurement and weighing will be required to do the conversion from Volume to Weight.

[Doughty]

Mustang, what you say makes sense to me. The problem is that the double cup tool that came with my set is kind of rough. I'm thinking it was 3-D printed on fast mode. Anyway, I'm having difficulties getting consistent amounts.

After reading Larry Gibson's post on the differences of using small pistol primers vs small pistol magnum vs small rifle, I think for now I will test with starting loads in my Ruger Blackhawk.

[Duckdog]

"I disagree. It is about reloading for some of us. This will not be fun for most. It is not fun to make 30 primers an hour that may or may not work. Seems even desperate people are not that desperate. Most will quit shooting rather than remanufacture primers.

For the person who shoots 1000 rounds or less a year, this may work. If that same person had invested in $150 in 5000 primers, they would have been able to ride out the shortage. That is the lesson to be learned.

For volume shooters, every method to date is unsatisfactory and I do not see how that will change.

BTW, seeing as this is so much fun for you, you must have made a couple of hundred by now. Would you share how much it cost to make 200, how many worked, and how long it took."

What the heck brought that on?? I personally stocked up well enough to last me a long, long time. If you do not want to participate in this discussion productively, then don't. I say this with respect to your opinion. Show some respect to those who want to learn a new skill, or even fail at trying it. It's posts like yours that kill one thing... people participating in very good posts. Enough said.

Gents. As far as weighing the materials, one must understand what is in the kit. It is the H48 priming mix, so there is actually a recipe for it. It appears the four bags contain Potassium Chlorate, Antinomy Sulphide, Sulphur, and a binder, from what they have said in their videos. I have used the recipe on page 12 of the document attached to this link, and they go bang pretty much all the time.

Here's a link to one of the documents with the recipe: http://aardvarkreloading.com/resources/homemadeprimercourse.pdf

There is also a very good thread under the special projects tab on this and reloading 22 LR that really go into it.

I have ordered the chemicals separately, so I know what they look like. The white powder is Potassium Chlorate. The black powder is Antinomy Sulphide. The yellow powder is Sulphur, and the tan powder is the binder, or sand to replace the ground glass. I treat it as the ground glass. Mark breaks it down pretty good here: http://aardvarkreloading.com. Here's a nice video breaking the weights down, too. https://gunstreamer.com/watch/reloading-primers-how-to-make-primer-powder-h48-from-hatcher-039-s-notebook_UUxliuhuEk6zTiH.html

[dverna]

Really interesting stuff. I really like how you have such details notes on your tests. I think this is well worth while, even if it is just peace of mind. For me, I still have plenty of primers, but I like the idea of being able to shoot as much as I want without tapping into my "reserve".

For my primer reloading, I've mostly trying then out in my 38 Spl revolver. When I've been using Prime-All and H-48, I've not wanted to mess up guns that have a lot of small parts where I'd have to do a major breakdown to clean it all. Thus, simple revolver for those test.

One thing that I have run across in my research.... Primers for the AR have been developed with a harder anvil. This is to avoid slam fires. As such, when I shoot my reloaded primers, it will be using primers from military 5.56mm cases. I have about 20,000 primers saved up.


I've just started working with the Lead Nitratohypophosphite primer compound (EPH 20), which works quite well, but I haven't done a big test with it yet (that is next). However, now that I've gotten a non-corrosive compound (that is basically like commercial), I am willing to put it in my auto and AR.

The other night, I did 30 primers in about 20 minutes. I think as I practice and develop better technique, I can improve this (consider the first time you reloaded). I've only fired 8 of them and they all fired.

I have the Prime-all and I asked if it was H-48, which Sharpshooter said no. I think it is close to that, but his stuff is convienent and easy to use.
Prime-all
https://sharpshooter-22lr-reloader.myshopify.com/products/prime-all-repriming-compound

Mark at Aardvark Reloading has quite a lot of useful information and a whole document on primers.
http://aardvarkreloading.com

Cheers
Eric

Eric,
That is interesting. 30 in 20 minutes is not too shabby!

The YouTube videos I have seen are nowhere near that.

[Duckdog]

This video shows an even more streamlined way to do it. Goes pretty darn fast. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkHazcrCZl0

When 22 Reloader says its not the H48, it's probably the H42 compound. That's H48 minus the glass or fine sand. Both are essentially the same.

[perotter]

If you apply the proper amount of pressure to a dry mix, you shouldn’t need to put a piece over the mix to keep it from falling out. The paper is only is only needed for a wet mix and then only so that no compound sticks to the packing punch. You'll find this in the tech manuals used by the manufactures of primers.

Also, one might consider loading this compound as a wet mix by putting alcohol or alcohol/water into the compound when mixing the ingredients. Especially if one is having any misfires. By being wet when mixing, the ingredients are in much closer contact and mixed more evenly.

On wet mix vs dry when I was working on an experimental non-corrosive mix on mine, I started out mixing it dry. And was getting only 8 out of 10 to fire. As I had about exhaust what I could do to get it better, I switched to wet mixing. Then I never had a single primer not fire and I test a few 100 of them.

[MUSTANG]

perotter:


In post # 2, I described the following:


I packed each primer using the end of a chop stick; then placed a drop of Acetone in each primer. Acetone dried quickly; so I waited until it was dried then used 91% alcohol on each primer. Did NOT use a paper disk on these primers. Seated the anvils into the primer and mixture using a small C clamp. After drying; it became apparent that small amounts of primer mixture was able to fall out of the primers through the gaps between the three anvil legs. Use of a “Paper Foil” over the mixture and below the anvil is apparently mandatory to keep mixture in place.

I found this article: https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/100079


The discussion in the article on "Foils" stated:


Foiled Again
Most component primers have a little disk of paper between the anvil and the priming mix. There are many "campfire" rumors concerning this item. First, it's called "foil paper," not because it's made of foil but because it replaces the true metal foil used to seal early percussion caps. (See the illustration on page 12.) The paper is chemically treated to burn ash-free.

The reason this little disk exists is strictly a manufacturing convenience. Wet primer pellets are smaller than the inside diameter of the cup when inserted and must be compacted to achieve their proper diameter and height. Without the foil paper, the wet mix would stick to the compaction pins and jam up the assembly process. The absorbent paper soaks up some of the moisture and binding agent from the wet mix and stays with the pellet when the pin is lifted at the end of the operation. It's the same reason you put wax paper between hamburger patties — it prevents sticking.



Despite this admonition that a Foil is not required to keep the primer mix n place; my problems with the mix breaking up and falling out - and higher % of ignition both went away after I introduced a paper foil and an Alcohol/Shellac mixture . After progressing to the next stage Testing with Powder and Ball in the .223 test vehicle; I may go back and try removing the Foil Paper Disk. For now I will retain it.

[ACC]

This thread will focus on rebuilding primers using the Prime-All mixture for reloading expended Small Rifle primers. The BOM (Bill of Materials) I use for accomplishing this follows. An Internet Link is provided with each as a potential source/example of each item needed.

BOM:

• (1) Prime-All Repriming Compound
https://sharpshooter-22lr-reloader.myshopify.com/products/prime-all-repriming-compound

• (1) Harbor Freight Plastic Funnel Tray.
https://www.harborfreight.com/easy-sorter-funnel-tray-37081.html

• (2) Small Glass Sample Jars with lids. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08JZG5WN6?pf_rd_r=FN4F17RR7683K1EE68YV&pf_rd_p=5ae2c7f8-e0c6-4f35-9071-dc3240e894a8&pd_rd_r=4c23dee9-5df5-417f-acb5-b1eda2c0a9cb&pd_rd_w=iHMiJ&pd_rd_wg=PFdDJ&ref_=pd_gw_unk&th=1

• Plastic Round Top Swizel Stick. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07R69362K/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

• (1) Glass Shot Glass.
https://www.amazon.com/Thirsty-Rhino-Karan-Round-Glass/dp/B071JD7T1J/ref=sr_1_5?dchild=1&keywords=shot+glass&qid=1612293745&sr=8-5

• (1) set Bamboo Chop Sticks, size to fit & pack primers.
https://www.amazon.com/Set-200-Chopsticks-Units-bamboo/dp/B073XBJK3D/ref=sxts_sxwds-bia-wc-rsf1_0?cv_ct_cx=chopsticks&dchild=1&keywords=chopsticks&pd_rd_i=B073XBJK3D&pd_rd_r=0accd9f5-15c0-4ab1-9a20-fd63500903d2&pd_rd_w=bEYwg&pd_rd_wg=NwTRr&pf_rd_p=5d815bf0-8407-4925-96a4-1fe69f424373&pf_rd_r=16RANACRVMMFQ6W727R7&psc=1&qid=1612294413&s=home-garden&sr=1-1-526ea17f-3f73-4b50-8cd8-6acff948fa5a


• (1) set Stainless Steel Dental Pics. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07PN9VVVG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

• Stainless Steel Forceps.
https://www.amazon.com/Fishing-Straight-Hemostat-Forceps-Stainless/dp/B088PBNSWR/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=Forceps&qid=1612294539&sr=8-3

• (1) Hand held Hole Punch; 1/8” Hole (for Small Rifle and Small Pistol foil paper disks). https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B084ZKSR64/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

• (1) Cast Iron Anvil or Small Section Railroad Rail.
https://www.harborfreight.com/15-lb-rugged-cast-iron-anvil-69425.html

• (1) 1/8 inch Punch to remove dimple from Primer Cup. https://www.harborfreight.com/8-piece-punch-set-93424.html

• (1) Hammer (your choice).
https://www.harborfreight.com/16-oz-claw-hammer-66862.html

• (1) 4” drill press vice.
https://www.harborfreight.com/4-inch-jaw-capacity-drill-press-vise-30999.html

• (1) 3” or 4” C-Clamp (My current choice for seating anvils into Primer Cups). https://www.harborfreight.com/3-inch-industrial-c-clamp-37846.html?_br_psugg_q=c+clamp

• (1) Magnifying Glass, 10X.
https://www.amazon.com/Magnifying-Magnifier-Newspaper-Thickened-Observation/dp/B0818K2ZNC/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=Magnifying+Glass+10X&qid=1612294183&s=office-products&sr=1-4

• Shellac 0.5 Ounce can.
https://www.acehardware.com/departments/paint-and-supplies/stains-and-finishes/lacquer/11307

• 91% Alcohol.
https://www.amazon.com/Members-Mark-91-Isopropyl-Alcohol/dp/B01LNWC83U/ref=sr_1_6?crid=20FQFUTBA170Y&dchild=1&keywords=91%25+alcohol+isopropyl&qid=1612297115&sprefix=91%25+also%2Caps%2C286&sr=8-6


• Paper for Primer Foil. (My current choice is Cash Register Receipt Paper from ACE Purchase).

The following Videos provide examples on reloading expended Primers that I used as reference before I began to do experiments myself and develop techniques and data:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InnFDDdtXP4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkHazcrCZl0&t=96s

That's all well and good but where can you get roll caps these days?

ACC

[perotter]

perotter:


In post # 2, I described the following:


I packed each primer using the end of a chop stick; then placed a drop of Acetone in each primer. Acetone dried quickly; so I waited until it was dried then used 91% alcohol on each primer. Did NOT use a paper disk on these primers. Seated the anvils into the primer and mixture using a small C clamp. After drying; it became apparent that small amounts of primer mixture was able to fall out of the primers through the gaps between the three anvil legs. Use of a “Paper Foil” over the mixture and below the anvil is apparently mandatory to keep mixture in place.

......

Despite this admonition that a Foil is not required to keep the primer mix n place; my problems with the mix breaking up and falling out - and higher % of ignition both went away after I introduced a paper foil and an Alcohol/Shellac mixture . After progressing to the next stage Testing with Powder and Ball in the .223 test vehicle; I may go back and try removing the Foil Paper Disk. For now I will retain it.

Off hand I'd guess that I pack the compound to a much higher pressure than what you are and that might be the reason for the difference. I've never packed them using a wooden stick. I've always used metal, either brass or steel.

When packing the compound for making a small number of test primers, I hold the packing tool like one would an awl and put push down hard. This requires there being a piece of metal flat between the palm of my hand and the metal packing rod. I Otherwise I'd poke a hole into my hand. For small primers(what I usually test with) I made a packing tool that is attached to a palm piece.

So I'm thinking that maybe you are holding the pack stick like one holds a pencil?

What I know doing it this way is I've never had misfires with any of the proven corrosive mixes nor has any of the compound ever broken up and fell out.

Nor am I saying you need to change anything you do, especially when you are in the middle of testing your method. If you're happy with the results, that is all that matters. I'm just giving a different way of doing it and the results of doing the way I do for anyone who might want to try a way of saving labor or does like the results the are having.

By the way, I'm looking forward to your tests in the rifle and I hope you post what powder you are using.

[Sleeping Dog]

Bulk Chemicals

If you want to make your own H-48 compound, I found that this source of firework chemicals are easy to work with and provide a good product.
https://www.pyrochemsource.com

They have everything you need and they come in one pound bags. Thus, in one fell swoop, you can get more than you need.

It is good for making black powder too (cheaper than tree stump remover)

[MUSTANG]

That's all well and good but where can you get roll caps these days?

ACC

Try this location:

https://www.civilwarstuff.com/product/roll-caps/

[dverna]

Bulk Chemicals

If you want to make your own H-48 compound, I found that this source of firework chemicals are easy to work with and provide a good product.
https://www.pyrochemsource.com

They have everything you need and they come in one pound bags. Thus, in one fell swoop, you can get more than you need.

It is good for making black powder too (cheaper than tree stump remover)

Good information

[Duckdog]

Hobby Chemical Supply is another good source. This stuff is pretty cheap. If you put a pencil to paper, it's crazy how many percussion caps, primers, etc a pound of each of these chemicals will make.

[alfloyd]

Where to find glass powder?

Lafaun

[Sleeping Dog]

You make glass powder yourself. My 1st batch was just ground up glass from an old lightbulb. I have a mortar and pestle, then grind it until it is as small as I have patience for.

Mark from Aardvark reloading has a video showing his process:
http://aardvarkreloading.com
https://gunstreamer.com/watch/reloading-primers-how-to-grind-glass_gpp4vhh2n7R32jA.html

[Doughty]

So, am trying to buy the same chemicals that are in the Prime-All package. Ordered from Hobby Chemical Supply (https://hobbychemicalsupply.com/. For the potassium chlorate (KCIO3) I got instead potassium perchlorate (KCIO4). They didn't show the potassium chlorate. Is this still going to work? Pyro Chemical Source (https://www.pyrochemsource.com/) has the KCIO3 and KCIO4, for the same price.

[Sleeping Dog]

I suggest getting the right stuff. I have no idea what perchlorate would result in. I know waiting and shipping costs is a drag, but you don't want an unstable compound.

Also, if you haven't read and watched the stuff from Aardvark reloading, I suggest it. They recommend mixing the compounds by rolling the mixture back and forth on wax paper and NOT stirring it.

[GONRA]

GONRA's been an amateur primer nut since high school days:

Suggest one stick to NON FRAGMENTING - (NOT GLASS!) CONTAINERS!

Put powdered ingredients in a small plastic vial. Put vial into a small Harbor Freight Tumbler.
Let it run at end of 100 foot extension cord for 15 minutes or so - really nice homogeneous powder mix.

Buy olde CH Swag-O-Matic presses, ASSUMING you can make all sorts of handy small tooling.
(Cup & Draw primer cups / structural top foils from flat stock,
consolidate primer mix under known loading pressure, etc. etc.)

If you guys are REALLY gonna use "rehabbed primer cup primers" in loaded ammo,
BE SURE to have really first class eye protection when you shoot!

My crowning achievement was to make NCNM 9mm (diameter) Berdan primers from scratch.
Cups from 42mil Cu flat stock, structural top foils from 3 ml Al foil,
2 grains FA959 dry mix consolidated at perhaps 800 psi
in a CH Swag-O-Matic press converted to a dead weight apparatus.
Used in 14.5mm Soviet and other ammo....

Put green food dye in the top foil sealing lacquer to pretend its a RWS product. Ha Ha.

[perotter]

GONRA's been an amateur primer nut since high school days:

Suggest one stick to NON FRAGMENTING - (NOT GLASS!) CONTAINERS!

Put powdered ingredients in a small plastic vial. Put vial into a small Harbor Freight Tumbler.
Let it run at end of 100 foot extension cord for 15 minutes or so - really nice homogeneous powder mix.

Buy olde CH Swag-O-Matic presses, ASSUMING you can make all sorts of handy small tooling.
(Cup & Draw primer cups / structural top foils from flat stock,
consolidate primer mix under known loading pressure, etc. etc.)

If you guys are REALLY gonna use "rehabbed primer cup primers" in loaded ammo,
BE SURE to have really first class eye protection when you shoot!

My crowning achievement was to make NCNM 9mm (diameter) Berdan primers from scratch.
Cups from 42mil Cu flat stock, structural top foils from 3 ml Al foil,
2 grains FA959 dry mix consolidated at perhaps 800 psi
in a CH Swag-O-Matic press converted to a dead weight apparatus.
Used in 14.5mm Soviet and other ammo....

Put green food dye in the top foil sealing lacquer to pretend its a RWS product. Ha Ha.

Thanks for the good ideas. I assume from what you posted that a swag press works better than a reloading press. Or is there something about a Swag-O-Matic that is special?

I have an old swag press. I could get a Swag-O-Matic from my cousin, but it's currently stored "somewhere" in a 40 ft. semi-trailer.

FA959 is the red phosphorous/barium nitrate mix? I know you have posted about it here a few years ago.

[perotter]

So, am trying to buy the same chemicals that are in the Prime-All package. Ordered from Hobby Chemical Supply (https://hobbychemicalsupply.com/. For the potassium chlorate (KCIO3) I got instead potassium perchlorate (KCIO4). They didn't show the potassium chlorate. Is this still going to work? Pyro Chemical Source (https://www.pyrochemsource.com/) has the KCIO3 and KCIO4, for the same price.

You need to get potassium chlorate. While potassium perchlorate is used some compounds, but they are much different than the one you are working on.

[Doughty]

perotter, thanks. Looks to me like Pyro Chemical Source is THE place to get all the ingredients (except ground glass) at one place.

[Duckdog]

I think they'll both work, but the potassium perchlorate is more stable. If you look out there for the differences, there's plenty of info. It looks like the pottasium perchlorate gets the nod for flash powder over potassium chlorate. I personally use potassium chlorate. If it were me, I'd make a small batch and put it on a vice anvil and give it a tap with a hammer. I bet it goes bang. I bet it's just a tad less reactive. There are clips out there about that, as well. I'd also just try reaching out to Hobby Chemicals for the heck of it and see what they think.

[GONRA]

perotter NO! NO! NO!

GONRA sez - US military ammo seems to use FA956 primer mix.
FA959 is like FA956 but uses Zr instead of Al.
(Pretty sure U.S.&A. loaded FA959 then went to FA956.
Al is MUCH SAFER to handle than Zr! !!!)

Purifying Red P to use in primers involves NaCN.
NOT FOR THE BASEMENT / KITCHEN TABLE "CHEMIST"!!!!!

You do NOT wanna gas the Little Family with HCN if you screw up!!!
And you will screw up - we all do.....

[perotter]

perotter, thanks. Looks to me like Pyro Chemical Source is THE place to get all the ingredients (except ground glass) at one place.

You're welcome. The ground glass is a DIY as far as I know.

I used/tested the sand that one can buy at the home improvement stores that is sold for sand blasting. I works fine, but then I was informed that it might cause barrel ware. But that would depend on other factors, like powder used, etc.

If you aren't reloading .22 RF, here is a very well proven mix that doesn't have the glass in it and what I like better:

H-42 Primer Compound and is what was used in the military 30/06 ammo for a long time.
Potassium chlorate 47.2%
Antimony sulfide 30.83%
Sulfur 21.97%

It wouldn't hurt to add 1% sodium bicarbonate to this. In case there is a bit of acid(etc) still in the sulfur. Improves how long the mix will last. Talking years or decades here, but IMO a good habit to have.

[MUSTANG]

Perotter:

Are the H42 Ratios based on Weight or Volume percentages?


(I am waiting on temps to get above +15% before I venture out to test fire the remanufactured Prime All primers in the Axis .223 with Powder and Ball. My days of the USMC Mountain Warfare Training Center and winter deployments to Norway are far behind me and I am sitting comfortably near the Wood Stove enjoying the view out the window where it has varied between +14° and -20° for the last 10 days. Yeah, I turned into a wimp. Maybe later this week the temps will rise enough to venture out to the range).

[Duckdog]

Cold where I am too. I was out this morning and I had just shy of 30 below. At least the wind was down. I know this is Perotter's show, But I mix it by weight. That's the recipe I got. It's also on Ardvaark Reloading's site, if I am not mistaken.

I've also used glass, sand, and neither of each, and they all go bang. I've been also using some gum Arabic as a binder as well. I'm waiting on the results of your test primers.

[MUSTANG]

Got an interesting note today. It revolved around "RailRoad Torpedo's". Did some research and found the following. I'll post the interesting pertinent part 1stly ; then post the entire Patent information from 1920. Sounds/smells like primer mix to me.


An improved explosive composition for railway signal torpedoes, comprising sulphur one part,- aluminum one and threefourths parts, barium nitrate one part and perchlorate two parts, combined in substantially the proportions specified, producing a composition with a sharp flash detonation and which is not subject to spontaneous ignition.

The patent info I found on the web:



Description

UNITED STATES arent ossica.

LOUIS ROSS, NEWTON'VILLE, MASSACHUSETTS, ASSIGNOR TO CENTRAL RAILWAY SIGNAL COMPANY, OF PITTSBURGH, PENNSYLVANIA, A. CORPORATION OF NEW 1 No Drawing.

JERSEY.

COMPOSITION FOR RAILWAY SIGNAL TORIPEDO ES.

To all whom it may concern: V Be it known that I, LOUIS S. Ross, a citizen of the United States residing at Newtonville, in the county of" Middlesex and State of Massachusetts, have invented certain new and useful Improvements in Compositions for Railway following is a specification. v

This invention relates to improvements in compositions for railway signal torpedoes, and is for use in torpedoes that are suitably attached to the head of a railroad rail to be exploded by the wheel of the locomotive for giving a signalto the engineer, as is well understood'by those skilled in this art.

It is well-known to those skilled inthis art that the explosive for railway signal torpedoes is made either in the form of a loose powder or a molded tablet, and my improved composition is adapted to be used in either of the above' forms, or partly tablet and partly'loose powder, as will be pointed out hereinafter.

The primary objects of my improved composition for railway signal torpedoes are- 1. To produce a louder detonation for a given quantity. of composition, whereby the amount of composition used may be reduced,

thus effecting economy in the manufacture,

torpedo, and; would be of value to the train tions now in use.

and at the same time to enable a smaller torpedo to be used, which among other advantages, is less liable to be pushed from the track, by the locomotive wheel than a larger men because of the reduced size, enabling a greater number to be carried in a given space. 2. Toaadd to the saftey in the manufacture sensitiveness ofv previous torpedo compositions to friction and spontaneous ignition, which are present in the torpedo composi- 3. To produce a railway signal torpedo composition, which adds a signal flash to the signal detonation, whereby the engineer may see as well as hear the explosion of the torpedo which takes place the'instant it is struck by the engine.

y improved composition which involves all the foregoing objects is composed of perchlorate, aluminum, sulphur, barium nitrate,

sand or sharp flint; and when made in tablet form dextrine is added as a binder. If, .how-

Signal Torpedoes, of which the pilot wheels at the front end of the Specification of Letterslatent. Patnted an. 24, 1922. Application filed October 7, 1920. Serial No. 415,264.

"ever, the composition is to be used in powder form dextrine is omitted, and in either form of the composition'the sand or flint may be omitted if desired.

" In practice, I haveused the foregoing ingredients in substantially the following proportions:

The foregoing proportions of the several parts may be widely varied either way without departing fromthe spirit and scope of my present invention.

The foregoing composition can'be made to give a more brilliant flash, but at somewhat more expense, by the addition of magnesium, and also magnesium can be substituted entirely for the aluminum.

This composition may be manufactured as a moulded plastic without the aluminum or magnesium, or both, and then the desired amount of either aluminum or magnesium,

or both, added as a loose binder in the case or envelope containing the explosive composition.

Furthermore, barium nitrate may be omitted, but I find that better results are obtained by its use than without it.

The perchlorate adds to .the safety of the manufacture of the torpedo and safety in the storage of the torpedoes and at the same time adds to the sharpness of its detonation.

The function of the aluminum or magnesium, or both, is primarily twofold. One

to furnish a flash and the other to cause a thermite reaction, causing a violent combining with the oxygen of the composition, thus adding to the violence of the detonation. The aluminum or magnesium, or both, rapidly extracts the oxygen from the other chemicals of the compound so that the violence of their action adds to the sharpness and loudness of the detonation.

It may be added here that the perchlorate in this compositionincreases the thermite effect, and thereby adds also to the sharpness and violence of the detonation.

The barium in this composition not only imparts insensitiveness, but also furnishes additional oxygen to be extracted by the aluminum or magnesium, or both. It' allows the last-mentioned chemicals to do more Work by rapid extraction of the oxygen, and this adds to the flash as well as the detonation.

Aluminum, I find, is a better extractor of oxygen than magnesium, and it is also cheaper and, therefore, under ordinary conditions, preferable to the use of magnesium.

I desire it to be understood that where a flash is notdesired the aluminum, or magnesium, or both, may be omitted from the composition, and in this event, the remaining ingredients produce a composition having the advantages of louder detonation and combined in substantially the proportions specified for producing a torpedo with inducing a sharp flash detonation, and a composition which is not subject to spontaneous ignition.

3. An improved explosive composition for railway signal torpedoes, comprising sulphur one part,- aluminum one and threefourths parts, barium nitrate one part and perchlorate two parts, combined in substantially the proportions specified, producing a composition with a sharp flash detonation and which is not subject to spontaneous ignition.

4. An improved composition for railway signal torpedoes, comprising a perchlorate and barium nitrate combined for the purpose described.

In testimony whereofI hereunto aflix my signature.

LOUIS S. ROSS.

[perotter]

Like Duckdog says, the measure is by weight for the mix. H42 is a mix that the US military came up with in the 1890's to get rid of the using glass, FWIW.

Something to keep in mind is that potassium perchlorate will be a bit more corrosive than potassium chlorate. The perchlorate will will form hydrochloric acid when fired. But it is safer in a factory environment. If someone tries it, please report back as to how it goes.

But my thinking is when it's easy to get exactly what a mix used(H48 and H42) that was carefully formulated and test to meet sensitivity, reliability, burn time, etc I like to stick with that. But I've got so many other thing in mind I can test, maybe I just kind figure good enough.

Glad to hear that I'm not the only one that is staying inside.

[Duckdog]

I did not know that about the potassium percholate. I have enough H48/H42 mix to last me a lifetime once mixed, so no changes for me.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Having made a fair bit of Armstrong's compound as a kid (I stopped before age 18), I would really strongly suggest either wet mixing your compound, or, remotely mixing it; Stirring Armstrong's (KClO3, some sulphur, and some red phosphorous) even VERY gently, will pretty much be guaranteed to result in really loud booms. Wastes your compound, money, hearing, and maybe worse.

Remote mix in a very gentle way, in a non fragmenting container (cardboard, for example) - or wet each ingredient, water or everclear, then mix them together, then keep them wet as you remote mix them, if "paranoid"; I still have all my fingers, and eyes, and I imagine you like keeping yours. Call me paranoid if you wish, I'll just shake my head at you :)

I'd treat any primer mixture in the exact same way, you can call it a professional courtesy, if you wish. Respect if not fear the stuff, as it is quite capable of doing damage!

[markmars]

Very good read I know US Army TM 31-210 Improvised Munitions Handbook mentions using the white tips off strike anywhere matches (potassium chlorate) for reloading primers. I've reloaded percussion caps with the rolled paper caps for toys.

[MUSTANG]

Well I got out to the Range Tuesday. Temp was +12°; light wind (~7 to 10MPH), and overcast. The picture below (it's rotated 90° to the left for some reason) was from 100 Yards. Shot using the same Savage Axis .223 rifle I mentioned in previous posts. Load Specs:

Primer: Reloaded using Prime-All mix as indicated in post #25 in this thread.
Brass: Hornady .223
Powder: W-748 26 Grains
Bullet: 60 Grain open tip, flat base - (Self swaged from 22Lr Brass Corbin Dies).

277938

This group is quite a bit larger than I am used to from this Bullet/Load; but then again it was a miserable +12° with a slight wind; and I did not put wool socks on - rather had some light cotton socks on while wearing Muck Boots. About 2 feet of Snow on the ground.


The BAD:
Out of 15 Rounds loaded for the test, only 10 ignited the first firing. I attempted to fire the five that failed a second time; and one of the Five fired on 2nd attempt.

The GOOD: I did not take the chrony because of the two feet of snow. But; the report and felt recoil seemed to indicate that all eleven shots that fired felt and sounded consistent. This load normally gets me + or - 2750 Feet Per Second. work planned with a Chronograph once we have warmer weather and the snow level allows a crony set up.

Future Analysis: I have not de-primed and broken down the "Working" primers and the "Failed" primers yet. Will do so in near future and I will attempt to discern if there is a visible/apparent reason for the failure to fires.

Clean Up: I did NOT get the reddish coloration that I mentioned from cleaning the "Primers Only" test firing. Used Hoppe's #9 once again to clean and 6 patches total; two patches of Hoppe's started cleaning the chamber & Barrel, followed by a clean patch, another Hoppe's Patch, and then two clean patches(no Hoppe's) came out slightly dirty - then clean with the last patch. Appears the reddish color is greatly diminished with the heat of the powder burning. The necks inside of the cases were powder burn blackened - with no apparent traces of the reddish color. The inside of the necks MAY BE slightly more powder fouled than normal; we will watch for that in later tests.



Comment: If primers were exhausted, and I had to resort to reloading primers at the current state I have achieved, I would do so but remain dis-satisfied. For a hunting situation; it would be more challenging and shots would have to be taken with the self understanding that each shot may or may not ignite. For a "Defensive Situation"; there would be a pucker factor and "Defensive Tactics" would have to be modified to account for the potential of a fail to ignite.

[rancher1913]

mark has a new mix/video coming out soon for a non corrosive primer mix, it takes some chemistry back ground because you can not get one of the ingredients, you have to make it. supposed to be the same as modern primer mix.

on a side note, has anybody found a source for red phosphorus. guess its used to make meth so nobody sells it any more.

[AlHunt]

mark has a new mix/video coming out soon for a non corrosive primer mix, it takes some chemistry back ground because you can not get one of the ingredients, you have to make it. supposed to be the same as modern primer mix.

on a side note, has anybody found a source for red phosphorus. guess its used to make meth so nobody sells it any more.

Who is Mark and where will I find his video?

[John Boy]

Bravo Mustang .... Super Thread, much Thanks for your time and writing skills

[rancher1913]

Who is Mark and where will I find his video?

ardvark reloading

[perotter]

Thanks for the update MUSTANG. It won't take you long to figure out how to get the results you desire.

[perotter]

mark has a new mix/video coming out soon for a non corrosive primer mix, it takes some chemistry back ground because you can not get one of the ingredients, you have to make it. supposed to be the same as modern primer mix.

on a side note, has anybody found a source for red phosphorus. guess its used to make meth so nobody sells it any more.

I haven't been able to fine a US source of red phosphorus that will sell to a private person. At least not in an amount more than for making a few primers to experiment with.

Maybe if you have a good friend that works in plastics business they would we willing/able to get some for you. They can easily get it that is coated so a primer mix would last along time. It's perfectly legal for a person to have/buy it. But the seller of it has to know who they are selling it to.

It isn't that hard to make, like anything that has been made since for the last few hundred years. But still work and time. I guess if a person got making down well, one would have primers even if they lived in a cave in the middle of the wilderness.

[root]

Pretty interesting stuff.
Tagged to follow found this while looking for another thread.

[Duckdog]

There's a long one under the special projects we had going a while back that is the mother lode of info on this subject.

[Alferd Packer]

Should be a reloading organization where reloaders can invest in a company to startup and sell priming compound to reloaders.
The NRA could advise on how to set up a components company.
Just for primers.

[Alferd Packer]

Why Not?

[Mr_Sheesh]

On making red phosphorous, I need to get one computer up first - once it's up I should be able to find a link, or ask the people who know again, cannot reach them ATM.

It is on match striker strips on book matches etc., but not lots of it.

[lesterktm]

Fascinating stuff! I plan on performing these same tests soon. I have been waiting on the compound for over a month at this point.

[perotter]

On making red phosphorous, I need to get one computer up first - once it's up I should be able to find a link, or ask the people who know again, cannot reach them ATM.

It is on match striker strips on book matches etc., but not lots of it.

Normally one would make white phosphorous and then heat that in a closed container to turn it into red phosphorous. There are a couple of youtube videos of guys doing both.

But in the end it takes about the same amount of equipment and effort as it would to make some of the other compound. And more than some others. But in a very bad situation it can be made from materials one would always have at hand and without needing to purchase anything. Could be done while living in a cave in the middle of Alaska.

[lesterktm]

Exciting news! Just received my shipping notification for my Primer All. Can wait to test these with the chrono. I have in the past shot hot glue cast boolits with only a primer. May try this with the chronograph.

[Chief]

I have a question for somebody that may have taken apart 22lr rounds. I have a brick of really old non collectable 22lr ammo that I am going to take apart and reload...reload to quiet, around the homestead vermin dispatching ammo. My question is has anybody taken apart without harm 22lr ammo. I was going to toss this brick but now that I am almost out of of 22 shorts I shall make the next batch...my plan is to take apart the offending 22lr...figure out why it doesn't work(assuming an issue with the priming compound that's there now)...fix the issue(reprime if necessary)...work up load using either another powder of what I take out...this may or may not work but I only need help with is the first step which is taking apart the rounds without damaging anything.

[longbow60]

Where to find glass powder?

Lafaun

You can buy glass powder on etsy.

[MisterStyx]

I just made a whole lot of glass powder in a cheap walmart blender. Got an Oster with a glass pitcher. Chewed up the charcoal I made, then tried it on some glass. Used an empty glass olive jar, broke it up with a hammer and it ran through nicely.

[Optimus Primer]

My First Forum Post/Reply
First, a thank you for sharing information and experiences by many in this thread.
Having had surprisingly good results with remanufactured SP primers using German roll caps, like many, I'm now trying to graduate to the next level with the H-48 (ish?) compound sold as Prime-All. The company that sells it, appears to follow the gun industry standard of "give your customer as little information as possible, about the product that they're buying". Well anyway, to shorten the story, this weekend's testing involved using what I now consider as my SP primer test load in 9 X 19. Usually fired in a couple of PCC's and "old Frank" (Short for Frankenstein), my built from leftover parts 1911. The load consists of an SNS 125 Gr Flat-nosed Red Epoxy Powder coated boolits with some supplemental Lee liquid Alox+Johnson Paste wax. The idea being, to lay down a wax coating to keep the Potassium Salts off the interior surface of the barrel. This is propelled by 5.2-5.5 grains of Ramshot True Blue. It's a wonderful load. I fired over a hundred of these using Prime-all, glued in place with Hair Spray, Ethanol/Shellac, Plain Acetone, all using either gas station receipts, or thin wrapping paper tissue that you can almost see through. The only rounds that exhibited 100% reliability were the exact to the letter recipie from Prime-All with plain old acetone.
The rest had a roughly 8-10% first strike fail, but EVERY SINGLE ONE of those fired on the SECOND strike. I KNOW there's a story buried in here, about how to assemble this compound........... such as a higher compaction pressure or finally just wet load them (?)
Perhaps perotter could shed some light on this.
On a happy note, these loads had low extreme spreads, excellent accuracy, and an unusual but not objectionable smell. :)

[n.h.schmidt]

Hi Optimus In making percussion caps with the prime-all I have pressed the powder with about 40lbs pressure. No accidents and all worked. I now just use hand pressure with the same results. Many leave out the off white powder in the little bag. It's presumed to be a binder. You sure don't need it if using other binders. Your binders mentioned work fine if not too so strong as to kill the charge. I did remake small pistol primers with the FA-42 mix using a very thin shellac and denatured alcohol mix. It worked but the pistol used suffered from a weak hammer hit. Even some factory primers didn't work in this gun.Sometime I will try again with a more robust revolver. I also now mix up using plain water.It's safer and I think I get a more complete mixing. I will not use ground glass anymore. You can feel the grit over everything including the gun from firing.

[Optimus Primer]

Thanks Mustang for sharing your experience with Prime-All. I quickly ran out patience with the mini-pooper-scooper mix method. I just went and started mixing it by WEIGHT using the trued and true H-48 recipe. (including the dash of baking soda). The bad news is it doesn't work any better. Good news is it doesn't work any WORSE. Much less of a test of my patience though, so I'm calling it a win.:grin:

[Doughty]

ditto Optimus Primer. For me, weighing is much easier, and much more consistent. Unfortunately I haven't been filling any primers lately, but I have been making percussion caps and haven't had any duds yet.

[bbogue1]

Rool caps through Tractor Supply $6 for 1200 caps.

[MrWolf]

Rool caps through Tractor Supply $6 for 1200 caps.

Anyone tried using the Parris brand? Just says imported.
Thanks
Ron

[ACC]

When you add up all the stuff you need it seems to me it would be cheaper just to bite your toe and buy some primers. But I also understand the good feeling we get when we make something with our own hands.

ACC

[johnsonian09]

Mustang,

You may find this useful.

Last time I did a dive on making my primers more efficient. I also use 22reloader mix. Which has its own hardener.

For foil I use cigarette paper. Very thin and disappears/burn reliably. I did think about using old receipts but they seem to have a waxy coating which I didn’t want to be a possible issue.

For glue I use a 15% solution of nitrocellulose glue from archery supply stores online. Diluted with acetone or alcohol. I noticed little difference in reliability except for drying time.

Nitrocellulose adhesives are highly flammable.

Guncotton is a form of nitrocellulose.

For pistol primers I use .3 grains of the mix.
I haven’t really tried it with the 223/556 AR15 stuff.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[P Flados]

When you add up all the stuff you need it seems to me it would be cheaper just to bite your toe and buy some primers. But I also understand the good feeling we get when we make something with our own hands.

ACC

I know this thread is about the H48 / Prime All stuff, but based on my EPH-2X experience, I am betting actual cost is dirt cheap when you find better sources for the raw chemiclas.

I got set up for making the non-corrosive EPH-2x stuff for a couple of hundred dollars. Initial chemicals and consumables can be had for less than $150. The results however was enough stuff for over 20K SPP primer reloads from this initial spend. Future cost based on materials only will be less than 1/3 of a penny each. First hit reliability in some of my guns has been 100% with lots of rounds fired.

If you check out ardvark reloading and the MEWE site, you can actually save some money by using some loner equipment.

[GONRA]

For a really nice uniform primer mix, GONRA suggests putting a
small vial of ingredients into a small Harbor Freight Gem Tumbler,
with 100 ft. extension cord. Typically get a fine greyish powder
with a few larger ingredient crystals floating on top.
(Verked great for making 1 gram batches FA959 mix for
9mm Soviet Berdan primers. 2 grains mix/primer.)

(If yer gonna use "recycled" primer cups PLEASE be sure
to wear nice safety goggles when shootin'!)

[bbogue1]

305523 Here are the tools I use (not shown is a drill press vise and a hammer. The powder loading measure (an empty primer case on a wire) is in the middle. The 380 Auto case I use to measure the alcohol and shellac is on the articulated wire on the right. That wire is 2 pieces to allow it to reach the bottom of the alcohol bottle and store using less space. I abandoned my old inaccurate way when I read your tale. Post 25 is the key.

[Moon1951]

I have found this thread very interesting. I realize many think it a waste of time or foolish, to reload primers, but I don't think so. I found myself in the situation of having to pay $250 for a thousand primers (which I did ONE TIME out of necessity) presently primers are running about $120/ thousand and I am sitting on 4 thousand, but those won't last long. I doubt we will ever see $30/thousand again. I have been loading my plinking ammo with "reconditioned" primers for a while now with I think great success. I use prime all. Yes, it is tedious and is not going to replace my regular ammo saved for defense purposes. Reloading primers, casting my own bullets, processing the cases to me is for a SHTF situation , a way to keep shooting when these "shortages" make ammo unavailable, and most of all I enjoy the satisfaction of making my own things. I'm a retired machinist, used to making all my own tooling and equipment. I have tried all the methods posted here and they work for the most part. I just ordered a die set from NOE that will resize and reshape the primer cup back to its original "condition" using a single stage press to prepare the primer for reloading. This set does large and small pistol primers. The cost is $52. I am going to try this to see if it makes the process any easier. I can buy 9mm for $15 a box of 50 cartridges at present. The cost of Reloading is $11 a box using the expensive store bought primers. The cost using reloaded primers, my casted bullets, and reconditioned cases is $6.75 a box. ( that does not account for all the time, but I don't count that because this is a hobby to me done for enjoyment. I cast my own bullets and reload for the challenge and just to see if I can do it.
I'll let you know how this die set performs as soon as I try it out.

Mark

[deces]

With the help of Lee, NOE and a kit of etsy, reloading primers has gotten a lot more reasonable.

https://rumble.com/v1ocr7b-primerpro-part-2-setup-tips-and-tricks.html