Noob questions

[wolfwing]

OK, I've read about PCing bullets until my eyes hurt. I need to get a few things clear before I jump in. I want to use the shake and bake PC method.
I will be curing in this or something similar: https://www.walmart.com/ip/Oster-French-Door-Convection-Toaster-Oven-Metallic-Charcoal/660045174?wpa_bd=&wpa_pg_seller_id=F55CDC31AB754BB68FE0B39041159D63&wpa_ref_id=wpaqs:GjZluD40xjNTEWLLjkudoMAzIyTfkvKwM l3_B0N5EF5IYPgQAsp6jmUmkwzZFwGZ9YYJoTUwhNTE3zkULQJ UA4u7Hj1nEI1l2PcB2c8IpSDVVw-vSHbiiQQIzt0VFydvFR1pIJzx8NKRXUdcALlb8Y48kB8CezPOV gV2tg-RIPiMIomadV1ufxDqL1TZ-vjelNjY_3WoYkVJIUxhnI3EXQ&wpa_tag=&wpa_aux_info=&wpa_***=2&wpa_plmt=1145x1145_T-C-IG_TI_1-6_HL-INGRID-GRID-NY&wpa_aduid=c757b608-f2f6-46ad-b8aa-b90af12042f4&wpa_pg=search&wpa_pg_id=oven&wpa_st=oven&wpa_tax=4044_90548_90546_90774_3312544&wpa_bucket=__bkt__

I want to shoot the boolits in an AR or other gas gun. - Do I need to gas check them?? Do I gas check before or after PCing???

Do I size before or after PCing??? I have the Lyman 450, but can go with the Lee push thru method.

I am not going to cast for the 50 Beowulf, but I can buy cast boolits from a local supplier. That supplier will sell them to me "as cast" unsized and unlubed. I want to PC these for an AR. Will I have any issues?? If I set the "shaked" coated boolits on a tray, will the coating on the base turn out OK?? If not, will a second coat with the bullets set nose down on the tray save me from using a gas check?? Is a gas check a good thing to use in all gas guns anyway??

[slide]

Looks like a good oven. I would recommend a gas check. Powder coat will not take the place of a gas check.Some people gas check before coating and some gas check after coating. There again some people size before coating and some after. Now, you are going to get a lot of replys with I do this. Read them and if there is anything you can use go for it. The only way that you are going to learn to powder coat bullets is jump in the middle of and try different things. Don't be afraid of failure. With each failure you will learn. I probably messed up when I said powder coat will not take the place of a gas check. There will be some that claim they shoot full power loads without a gas check and can shoot cast bullets in their AR and put them in the same hole at a 1000 yards. The only advice I can offer is shake the powder off good and have some way to verify your temp.A lot of guys use oven thermometers,some have pid's on their ovens. I have a pid and use a thermouple bullet to monitor my bullet temp. I have found you can get by with pistol bullets but you better make sure that the powder coat is cured properly with rifle bullets.

[elginrunner]

i can't answer to the gas check thing, as I have yet to do it. I have however bought a oven from WW right after christmas. I was hoping for one similar to yours but all they had was a $44 unit. I forget the brand, but I bought it as it was a convection oven. The thermostat was not close, I adjusted with the use of a certified oven thermometer, and called it good. I've done thousands so far and am tickled to death over the results.... I will say this. Mine can only fit a 9" pan... yours may get a much larger pan in. However, i can get over 100 on mine, unless you plan on dumping them, standing more than 100 up on end can get a little tedious... just saying...

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I use the 'shake & bake' method, just lay out the boolits on a tray with non-stick baking powder. I size before PC'ng but fir gas checks after.

https://i.imgur.com/02GXeqo.jpg

[AlHunt]

Use Smoke's powder and follow the exact method prescribed here. Gas check before or after PC. I do it after. For the record, I'm shooting PC and gas check through the ARs without issue, full load. 25ish grains of W748.

[Iwsbull]

Wow really nice oven, mine is a cheapest I could find. I would invest in a PID to be accurate on my temps or at least an oven thermometer. I gas check and size after I pc, though I have not tried it any other way so I would say dealers choice. The boolits that I have that are set up for gas checks (revolver) shot ok at 25 yards with certain loads but not as well as range increased.

[charlie b]

There are some cases where you will want to size before and after PC. Mainly if your bullets are a bit oversize. Easier to size before PC. Same with the gas check shank, if you use GC's. Some bullets have a shank diameter that is a bit large so easier to fit and crimp GC's before PC. On a Lee mold I had it was a bit undersize so I PC'd first, then fitted GC and sized.

[AlHunt]

There are some cases where you will want to size before and after PC. Mainly if your bullets are a bit oversize. Easier to size before PC. Same with the gas check shank, if you use GC's. Some bullets have a shank diameter that is a bit large so easier to fit and crimp GC's before PC. On a Lee mold I had it was a bit undersize so I PC'd first, then fitted GC and sized.

Sizing before coating is something I don't understand. You'd want to lube the naked bullets for sizing then have to get them squeaky clean to PC them, right? What's the process for getting them ready to PC?

[wolfwing]

Is the 450 OK for sizing after PC? Or will it damage the coating?

[AlHunt]

Is the 450 OK for sizing after PC? Or will it damage the coating?

If your PC is cured properly you can run them through any sizer without issue.

[Smoke4320]

I always add gas check before coating. This absolutely locks check to the bullet. No chance it will come off in my suppressor or during shooting if unsuppressed
Use non stick aluminum foil and let the bullets FULLY cool. they will fall right over with just a touch.
Bases will be totally covered and the foil reusable many many times

I have shot many many gas check bullets without a check and no leading.
After about 1900 fps a check will improve accuracy

[Conditor22]

IF you choose to add a gas check before coating. Make sure the sizing die is 100% clean of ANY LUBE or your powder won't stick

[bangerjim]

I check B4 coating. I check after coating. I don't check at all. Just depends on the boolit and the gun. There are no set rules here. Try it and see what happens with your boolits and barrels.

Nice oven. Glad a few are listening and not buying $5 pieces of carp and the goodwill someone gave away for "a reason"! That should give you even temps, but it would be wise to check it anyway with a good oven thermometer to see how close the dial setting is to the temp you want.

And as said, clean out your sizing equipment VERY thoroughly to remove ANY bit of old greasy lube.

[BentSprings]

I prefer to size plainbased after coating if I can. I like to do gaschecked boolits before coating. Some gas check shanks simply demand you seat the checks before the pc is on there anyway. Push through dies are almost always a more accurate way to size in my experience. I sold all of my in and out lyman type sizers after comparing group sizes. The longer and skinnier the bullet the more that rang true. Bent bullets simply do not shoot all that great.

I run gas checked and pc'ed Lee 55's in a 16" 9 twist AR15 223Wylde with normal 223 powders and at near normal speeds with no issues. Polishing Lee sizing dies is almost always needed for naked bullet sing and gas check seating. Their final finish is a bad joke and not what I would call polished by any means. Once polished you can size the bullets naked with no issues.

[charlie b]

I started PC with one of those $5 ovens, a Black and Decker. Once I decided to stick with PC I bought a good convection oven. Funny part is the thermostat knob on the cheap oven was a perfect calibration. 400F on it was 400F on the oven thermometer and thermocouple. The much more expensive convection oven the knob is almost 50 deg off at the top end (400 is actually 450) and is about 25 deg off at 200F (200 on the knob is actually 225).

I do like the bigger oven since I can do all my PC in one or two batches instead of 6 or more.

[popper]

Yes, you can shoot PCd from an AR., as to GC, depends on the fps/pressure. I shoot the ar10 with GC but BO sometimes PB. I assume 223 so yes, GC them. Use a GOOD PC, dump in basket to shake off excess PC. Smoke's red flows good - very important. No, you probably won't get 3k fps and accuracy.

[wolfwing]

I like the logic behind PCing AFTER the GC is seated, I'll go that way. The 2 cals I'm interested in doing first are 50 Beowulf (1900 fps with lightest bullet) and 450 Bushmaster (2200 with lightest bullet). Eventually I'd like to try it in a 35 HRT (6.8 necked up), but I don't know the vel yet with 180 and 200gr bullets. Hell, I don't even have the barrel chamber reamed yet!!

Yesterday I dropped off a donation at the Re-Store and noticed they had electric ranges/ovens for $50. Other than the size, is this an acceptable way to go?? More space - I can PC a rifle barrel in it. I already have several 240v lines in my garage for welders. I'm guessing it will spin my electric meter faster than a small convection oven. What say you!

[charlie b]

Depends on how many bullets you plan on cooking at a time. I am happy with the table top oven I have since I rarely do more than a couple hundred bullets at a time. If I were to do batches of 1000 I'd want a full size oven.

If you plan on powder coating other stuff that needs that kind of space then it is a decent reason to buy one. As you stated, it will make the meter spin fast :)

[Tonerboy]

277779
Here is a LEE 300 Grain RF for my 450 Bushmaster, GC after PC, was a job getting the GC's on. The next batch I will try GCing first. They shoot good in my Bolt Action, not sure if they will feed well in an AR style gun.

[oley55]

I PC'd and then GC'd a good number of 44mag rounds and it was a big mistake. I seated the checks on press and with a seating stud and had 10 out of 125 total failures (completely off center). Then I looked them all over and realized many were sitting crooked on the base. Then I got the really stupid idea to give them a good brisk bump on a heavy duty arbor press and they squared up nicely. Then the light came on and I realized I had bumped them fatter. So I sized them all and then measured for length and they were all over the place! I re-bumped them on the arbor press with a steel stop so I would at least have consistent lengths for bullet seating purposes and depth into the brass.

I lot of work to end up with a bunch of bullets that can never be duplicated and are at best plinking/blasting ammo. The worst part is gas checks aren't cheap and I pretty much wasted 125 of them. You can reprocess the lead, but not the checks.

Note to self and anyone thinking about it, just Don't do it.

[Jim22]

I just now finished powder coating about 100 .357 boolits in a cheap Wal Mart toaster oven. I tested it with an oven thermometer and found I had to turn the onboard thermostat down to about 320 degrees to get 400 degrees F. I bought a couple pounds of powder and some static pellets from Smoke. Today I used John Deere Green. I got some 1/4" hardware cloth to make up a tray for the oven. It was a good choice because the pellets fall through the 1/4" mesh. Then I can re-use them. I let the oven heat for five minutes and put in the tray of powdered boolits. Smoke says cook at 400 deg for 20 minutes. Because I wasn't sure if the oven was up to temp. I went 25 minutes, then just turned it off so the boolits can cook a little longer while it cools. They're cooling right now. A couple observations:

1. The boolits look wet as they bake. I assume that's when they are changing from powder to coating. When they cool I will try the hammer test to see if the stuff adhered properly. That's when youtake a boolit or two that has been powder coated, put it on something hard like the anvil of a vise, and smash it with a hammer. If the coating comes off it wasn't a good job.

2. These are plain base 158 grain bullets from a lee mould. Cast in wheel weights they come out at 160 grains. If these do well I may mix in a little pure lead. I'm casting for a .357 magnum rifle.

How'd I do boys?

[Jim22]

Just tried the hammer test. Coating is fine but looks a bit thin. May have to shake the boolits a bit more before cooking.

[AlHunt]

Sounds like you baked in a pile? My only thought would be that they break apart much more easily right out of the oven. I usually drop them HARD (throw them, really) into a cardboard box. Otherwise they're hard to separate.

Sounds like you got it right on the first go. Nice work.

A pic would be good so we can admire your handiwork.


I just now finished powder coating about 100 .357 boolits in a cheap Wal Mart toaster oven. I tested it with an oven thermometer and found I had to turn the onboard thermostat down to about 320 degrees to get 400 degrees F. I bought a couple pounds of powder and some static pellets from Smoke. Today I used John Deere Green. I got some 1/4" hardware cloth to make up a tray for the oven. It was a good choice because the pellets fall through the 1/4" mesh. Then I can re-use them. I let the oven heat for five minutes and put in the tray of powdered boolits. Smoke says cook at 400 deg for 20 minutes. Because I wasn't sure if the oven was up to temp. I went 25 minutes, then just turned it off so the boolits can cook a little longer while it cools. They're cooling right now. A couple observations:

1. The boolits look wet as they bake. I assume that's when they are changing from powder to coating. When they cool I will try the hammer test to see if the stuff adhered properly. That's when youtake a boolit or two that has been powder coated, put it on something hard like the anvil of a vise, and smash it with a hammer. If the coating comes off it wasn't a good job.

2. These are plain base 158 grain bullets from a lee mould. Cast in wheel weights they come out at 160 grains. If these do well I may mix in a little pure lead. I'm casting for a .357 magnum rifle.

How'd I do boys?

[Jim22]

Sounds like you baked in a pile?

A pic would be good so we can admire your handiwork.

Yep, in a pile. I shook the tray as I took it outa the oven to loosen them up. Still wound up with two stuck together base to base. I will try standing them up in the future as soon as I can figure out how to handle them without disturbing the powder. I'll work on a pic.

[fcvan]

I shake for 30 seconds and dump onto a baking sheet. The boolits still have static and I roll them on the cookie sheet which evenly coats the boolits. Then I lift off the cookie sheet and place onto parchment paper. ASBBs and powder gets placed back into the #5 Gladware tub. The trick is I bought a flourecent light difuser that has 1/2 x 1/2" squares, and trimmed it to fit the baking tray. that keeps them stable until placed into the oven. Second trick was placing molly bolts through the bottom tray in order to stack a second tray. Top tray gets placed onto the top of the oven, bottom tray placed on the rack. Remove plastic difuser grid. Place the top tray on the bottom, remove grid, carefully slide rack into the oven.

I checked my oven with a cheap oven thermometer, 385 is actually 400. I use Prismatic Powder which says 'bake for 10 minutes after powder liquefies.' Using a timer it took 5 minutes for powder to liquefy. Now, I just turn the oven on, set a timer for 15 minutes and walk away. I turn the oven off, crack the door, done.

Next time, I am going to water drop right from the oven to see how that affects hardness. Currently they shoot fine, I just want to see if the NOE 225-62 RN performs better in the AR, shoots well at 2250 FPS from the AR and a Mini 14, 2450 from a 24" single shot with the same load, I just want to experiment.

[wolfwing]

PM sent to ya Smoke

[Smoke4320]

wolfwing PM responded to
Thanks

[Conditor22]

Not everything is equal in powder coating.

Powder Coating creates a Polymer coating/shell around the cast boolit
.....a) it helps protect the boolit from the barrel
.....b) it works as a lubricant between the boolit and the barrel
.....c) it protects the user (and user's kids) from the lead

Different atmospheric conditions can limit static or dampen the powder.

1) the powder must be kept dry ----I use double zipper bags in the NW where we get a lot of rain, store my powder in a garage with a gas furnace and WH
2) the boolits must be kept clean --- IF I'm not coating the boolits right away I put them in plastic zipper bags --- NEVER QUENCH before PCing!!!
.....a) baking the boolits will take most of the hardness you gain by quenching out of the boolit
.....b) quenching is a good way to contaminate the boolits so the PC won't stick well
.....c) quenching after PCing gives good results
.....d) touching the boolit with oily hands can/will affect the coating --- wear nitrile/plastic gloves or use a clean spoon or ? to move the boolits

https://i.imgur.com/uclR2g1.png

PC can be dried out in an oven KEEP the temperature below 150° F (leaving the container open in an airconditioned room works) IF the PC is lumpy after drying it will quickly become powder again when you start swirl/shaking [I Rarely ever shake the container when PCing -- the containers don't last long when I do and just swirling gives me good results

3) the oven temperature must be checked with an oven thermometer (or 2) and the dial adjusted to where the thermometers read 400°
.....a) the oven temperatures will change with the surrounding air temperature due to location and type of sensor they use
.....b) toaster ovens work but only for smaller loads and have a tendency to have hot spots (some of the boolits can/will melt)
.....c) conventions ovens have been proven best because they have a circulating and the evenly heats all the boolits ---you can safely bake full trays of boolits

4) If the air/atmosphere is really damp you may need to pre-warm the boolits --- I use an oven set at 150° F or you can set a pan of boolits on to of your hot oven
.....a) the boolits must not be hotter than you can comfortably touch with bare hands or you can get PC clumping-- starting to cure

5) not all PC needs BB's/poly pellets to work --- this is a trial and error thing

6) polyester (usually TGIC) PC works best for me, I get better results with higher gloss powders

7) white/light colors generally don't cover well but adding a little of another color usually helps

8) COATING BOOLITS:
.....A) BOWLS
..........1) coating bowls/containers need to be plastic #5 or plastic #2
..........2) larger diameter bowls allow you to swirl/build up static faster thus cool whip bowls do such a good job
..........3) lids: if the bowl doesn't have a screw-on lid make sure you hang onto it or the lid will come open
.....B)STATIC BUILDING MEDIA: Normally cover the bottom of small bowls with 2 layers large bowls with 1 layer
..........1) ASBB (Air Soft BB's) black BB's are proven to work I've found camouflaged BB's that work also. It has to do with the hardness, what the BB's are made out of as to how well they help build static. even nonstatic building BB's will help even out the coating
..........2) Poly pellets normally black or white, haven't found any poly pellets that didn't help
.....C) Boolits:
..........1) use a minimum of 12-15 boolits -- enough to build up static
..........2) maximum no more than 2-3 layers deep in your bowl
.....D) Powder: This will vary on bowl size and number of boolits being coated
..........1)Ziploc Twist 'n Loc, after the BB's are coated, no more than 1 teaspoon per batch see how much PC is left in the bottom of the bowl after coating.
..........2) Cool Whip after the BB's are coated 1-2 teaspoons per batch see how much PC is left in the bottom of the bowl after coating.
..........3) Too much PC will prevent good static build-up
..........4) Too little PC will result in thin/spotty coating --- it's easy to add a little more and swirl a little longer
.....E) blending/mixing different PC is not like dealing with paint, white and black don't always make grey more often you get spotted/splotchy boolits
a) blending/mixing a little good PC with a bad PC often makes the bad PC work
b) blending/mixing multiple PCs can give you amazing results but the results will change with each batch you coat
c) some powders stick faster/better than others, the blend color will be heavier with that color to begin with then taper of when the color is used up in the bowl
.....F) SWIRLING: Screw or hold the lid tight and swirl the bowl holding it flat to verticle and back to flat, continue until all boolit are coated
.....G) preparing coated boolits:
..........1) REMOVE ALL EXCESS POWDER
.................a) Sift PC/boolits/BB's in a colander with something to catch the BB's and powder when they fall through the colander removing all excess PC
........................1) after all the PC/BB's are sifted off pick up the boolits with tweezers or fingers wearing surgical gloves (dipped in pc first to prevent sticking)
.................b) Pick up- dump PC'd boolits in a tray or? pick them up with tweezers, tap the tweezer on the side of a container to remove all excess PC
.....H) preparing to bake: Use a pan lined with non-stick paper/foil/bake mats or screen (1/4 hardware cloth)/wire basket (office supply)
..........a) stand short fat boolits up on their bases using finger or tweezer method
..........b) place taller boolits in silicone ice cube trays or use a metal grid to keep them from falling over
..........c) Dump method dump the sifted boolits in screen (1/4 hardware cloth)/wire basket (office supply) [this doesn't work well with all PC's you can get bad sticking
9) Baking PC the manufacturer states Bake for XX minutes at XXX° AFTER this condition exists
.....a) bake for XX minutes AFTER the boolits have reached XXX°
.....b) bake for XX minutes AFTER the PC starts to flow on the boolits
.....c) PC will look good after it flows and may pass the smash test BUT unless bakes to factory specifications IT IS NOT FULLY CURED
*****I have found that baking the coated boolits in an oven preheated to 400° for 25 minutes meets or exceeds all manufacturers requirements*****

10) Testing PC for adhesion/sticking using a smooth-faced hammer
.....a) flatten the PC'd cool boolit to 1/2 its original height seeing if any PC cracks or flakes off
.....b) hammer the PC'd cool boolit into a cube seeing if any PC cracks or flakes off
.....c) just because the PC passes the hammer test doesn't mean its fully cured, just that it is sticking well

11 SIZING
.....a) PC'd usually boolits size easily; if not, a little spray case lube can be used
.....b) IF PC is scraped off when sizing polish the entrance to your sizing die
..........1) with fine sandpaper made into a cone with the grit on the outside
..........2) with a Dremel tool, a felt boolit shaped polisher and some fine polishing compound --- I like Flitz
.....c)*** I like running a felt polisher in the sizing die for a few seconds to smooth the machine marks and make sizing easier
12 LOADING:
.....a) PC is normally loaded to regular cast boolit loads
.....b) GC usually aren't needed with PC's boolits until you reach 1600 - 2100 fps depending on the gun, powder, and boolit
.....c) PC'd boolits can work with a softer alloy and be pushed faster/harder than regular lubed boolits

***I like using different colored boolits to designate different diameters or powder charges***