1888 Gewehr Commission Rifle HELP!!!!!!

[Emmagee303]

FIRST TIME POSTING HERE: Good day all!
I have in my collection an 1888 Gehwehr Commission Rifle, (1894 DANZIG). I want to shoot cast Boolits through it but need some help identifying which variant it is and what would be the safest diameter boolit to use. It bears the (S) on the receiver, has the receiver notch cut, charger clip guides, dust cover on bottom of mag well, Turkish markings on the bolt and rear sight. It also bears the letters (NM) under the stamping (Gew.88) on the left side of the receiver. I slugged the bore twice and came up with .311 diameter. I also used digital calipers to mic the muzzle end of the bore and also came up with .311 diameter. In my research i have seen refernce to barrels that were referred to as (CZECH replacement Z barrels) that were allegedly turned down 1893 mauser barrels that had a much smaller bore diameter and were meant to fire a .315 diameter bullet or there about. I have also read posts about South African barrels and Turkish barrels of varying diameters. I am well aware of the sometimes heated controversy over the exact specs of these rifles, their variants and upgrades, where they have been, who did what to them, the meanings of all the makings, the specifications of the different versions of the 8mm cartridge, and if Erich Luddendorf really did wear women's undergarments while he was Chief of Staff of the Imperial German Army during the Great War. (Insert canned laughter here).
Below I have attached photos of the rifle and all markings in hopes someone could tell me with relative certainty which barrel I have and what to shoot through it.
I do know a bit about these rifles but I am here for good solid fact based knowledge and advice so lets pretend I don't know jack-diddley about them. Class is in session and I am your apt pupil! I thank you all for your input on this subject.

V/r
Terry

[smithnframe]

I think the S bore is .323 bullet diameter. Good looking 88!

[slim1836]

If there were a couple more markings on that rifle it would fall apart.

Slim

[Emmagee303]

Thank you.

[Emmagee303]

Slim: That is the reason they lost the second world war. They were too busy marking everything!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Hey...! No one officially welcomed you to the CB Forum, so I will say "Welcome aboard"! Glad to have you here. :grin:

First, let me compliment you on your many excellent photos. It's pure pleasure to have someone seeking identification information to show their firearm in such detail, and makes assisting you much easier.

I have several of these rifles, and will tell you what I know. First, the original bore size of the Gew 88 used
bullets of .318" diameter. The bullets were round nosed. The bores were originally .311" and a nominal groove diameter of .319". Later, when the Gew 98 was adopted it used a spritzer bullet of .323", which remained the German standard through the end of WW II. As your specimen has an "S" stamped on the receiver ring it means that the chamber's throat area was modified for the .323" round, the "S" standing for spritzer (pointed.

The Germans made many, many of these rifles, and at the time they had a far flung empire that included stakes in colonial Africa. The rifles were spread throughout their holdings, and not all rifles received all modifications. So it is not that uncommon to find a rifle that was refitted with a "NM" barrel, but the bore size remained the original .311", and was then given the "S" upgrade without a 2nd barrel change. I believe, based on your measurements, that is what you have.

Further, the receiver ring being notched indicates that it was modified for use of the spritzer tipped bullet as the round had a longer overall length. The 7.9 marking on the side of the rear sight base indicates that the caliber is 7.92mm, a more precise designation for 8mm Mauser. But that can not be taken as meaning the barrel was replaced for the larger diameter bullet, as the 7.9 designation was used for both the earlier and later rounds. It is, however, quite likely that because of the receiver modification your rifle saw use with the later .323" ammo.

"NM" means "new material" (steel) when the original barrel's metallurgy was found lacking and barrels split, and the steel was upgraded in subsequent production. This marking is usually found on replacement barrels, and usually not so often on the receiver, as the receivers did not fail, just the barrels. Many earlier production rifles (most of them) were fit with the new "NM" barrels, but the bore size was not changed as the original ammo was still in use.

The many single letter or number stamps on the bottom of the receiver and the barrel are mostly inspection/inspector markings indicating that this or that measurement was up to spec, and are likely a mixture of German and Turkish marks. I know of no source to determine their precise meaning.

I see a Turksh crescent moon on the bolt handle knob, and Turkish numbers on the rear sight, but no other Turk markings. This is unusual, as "Turked" rifles usually have several such marks, sometimes even on small parts; but really it's impossible to say, because there were always some rifles, sometimes a lot of them, that were left out of any particular modification, and that's one thing that makes collecting Gew 88s an interesting pastime.

The markings on the barrel band indicate the specific unit to which the rifle was issued and the number of the weapon within their inventory, in your case #58. It was common to strike out the former owner's property marks, which is what occurred on the other side of the band, when it was reissued to another unit, and to strike them all out when they were shipped to Turkey as war aid. It is unusual, but again not unheard of, for the last German owner's marking to remain on the band without being struck out before export. One has to exercise caution in drawing conclusions about the presence of the markings, because small parts are easily changed out or replaced, and there have been a lot of these rifles in this country for many years now, and possibly someone replaced the band.

The charger clip guides were not on the original Gew 88 and were a subsequent add on to the rifle which was then designated the 88/05. The original rifle used en-bloc charger clips that were inserted into the rifle, and which fell out of the bottom of the magazine when empty and the next clip inserted. The 88/05 was modified to use stripper clips that were discarded after loading. The hole in the bottom of the magazine housing was closed with a stamped sheet metal cover that slid on over the hole, and an interrupter device in the left wall of the receiver to prevent double feeding or ejection of unfired rounds. If your rifle matches this description, then you have an 88/05.

Finally, a last word about ammo. The Gew 98 using the .323" diameter bullet was the German's standard WW I rifle, but the Gew 88 was issued to many reserve units. Eventually the .318" diameter ammo was exhausted and the .323" ammo was used in the Gew. 88 rifles. This is, of course, to us a very questionable practice, but the Germans didn't seem to spend too much time worrying about it. Many Gew 88s made it to the fighting with the units to which they were issued, and countless of thousands of .323" ammo were fired through them. We have no records of blowups if there were any. I, myself, would hesitate to do that, and in response to the many Gew 88s that found their way to the U.S. as surplus imports or G.I. bring backs the Remington Co. made ammo with .321" diameter bullets and reduced charges. This commercial ammo was meant to be a happy compromise between the two diameters of .318" and .323", but was not particularly accurate. I shoot cast .321 diameter bullets in my Gew 88s using an RCBS mold that was intended for .32 Win. Special. The Turks did refit many of their Gew 88s with newly made, domestic production .323" barrels, but I don't think that you have one of them. So, if shooting jacketed bullets I would suggest that you use .318" (they can be found), and if cast try some .321".

DG

[Emmagee303]

Herr Gebirgsjager:

Thank you for the warm welcome and the very kind words! Your information is gladly received on this subject! I commend you on your knowledge!
I located some jacketed .318 diameter bullets that range from 150 to 200 grains in weight. Being a bit of a traditionalist I would like to keep my loads close to the original bullet weight of the J ammunition which was as I recall around 225 grains. What say ye? Also, I'm looking into the .321 diameter cast boolit method as well, however I am not set up to cast my own yet.
I am a collector of mainly British military arms and equipment and an avid historian/researcher of The Great War but I also collect/restore antique kerosene lamps, lanterns and stoves, predominately of British military origin, not to mention a re-loader, my plate is always full of projects and I'm hesitant to add boolit casting to that list. I shoot a Martini Henry MK-IV and reload for it so am familiar with loading cast boolits but until now I have been expedient and bought pre-custom cast boolits. I may well have to break down and buy the set up to cast my own now...
Another question: Would standard 8x57 Mauser dies work alright for loading and shooting both the .318 and .321 boolits, or would I need to purchase a set of .318 dies also?

[john.k]

Whatever the bore/groove dimensions ,if you shoot undersized cast boolits ,the bore will lead so much in a few shots you wont hit a 25yd target.....(There is a way around this,and that is to use a bit of granular filler which acts as a gascheck.)...nevertheless,an oversized cast boolit wont cause any harm,and wont lead ,so err on the oversize when buying a mould.

[samari46]

Groove diameter of my Danzig 1891 slugs out at .321 do I can use
.323 cast bullets. But seems dimensions of these are all over the place. Frank

[40-82 hiker]

Welcome aboard Terry!

I suggest you slug the bore and cast the chamber for the throat dimensions. This will give you a precise answer, and the throat dimensions will give you a leg up on a mold if you choose to go in that direction.

[sharps4590]

I am so ignorant of the history of those rifles I can't say anything. You say you slugged the bore twice and came up with .311 both times but, you don't say if that is bore or groove diameter. Assuming it is groove diameter your cast bullet diameter should be .312-.313. Jacketed would obviously be .311-.312.

Accurate Molds and others will have molds to provide what you need. If jacketed bullets are what you need, Hawk Bullets might be your only resource for the weight desired at .311-.312 diameter.

Groove diameter SHOULD be around .318. Woodleigh makes a .318, 200 gr. round nose, I think and Hawk makes a couple weights in .318. You can swage jacketed .323 bullets down to .318 which is what I do for two double rifles.

That's all I know...and it's probably questionable.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Herr Gebirgsjager:

Thank you for the warm welcome and the very kind words! Your information is gladly received on this subject! I commend you on your knowledge!
I located some jacketed .318 diameter bullets that range from 150 to 200 grains in weight. Being a bit of a traditionalist I would like to keep my loads close to the original bullet weight of the J ammunition which was as I recall around 225 grains. What say ye? Also, I'm looking into the .321 diameter cast boolit method as well, however I am not set up to cast my own yet.
I am a collector of mainly British military arms and equipment and an avid historian/researcher of The Great War but I also collect/restore antique kerosene lamps, lanterns and stoves, predominately of British military origin, not to mention a re-loader, my plate is always full of projects and I'm hesitant to add boolit casting to that list. I shoot a Martini Henry MK-IV and reload for it so am familiar with loading cast boolits but until now I have been expedient and bought pre-custom cast boolits. I may well have to break down and buy the set up to cast my own now...
Another question: Would standard 8x57 Mauser dies work alright for loading and shooting both the .318 and .321 boolits, or would I need to purchase a set of .318 dies also?

In answer to your last question, Emmagee303, I anticipated a problem with neck tension, using the .323" dies for the .318" bullets, and I purchased a set of RCBS .318" dies, which work perfectly. They cost a bit more that the standard dies, if I remember correctly. Right now, with the reloading supplies and component shortages, the correct dies and bullets might prove difficult to find. You could try the standard dies if you have them available, and it might work. Cast bullets that are lubed might prove sticky enough that they would stay in place long enough for you to crimp them in place with a Lee Factory Crimp die.
Some of the members here are very into reloading with many dies at their disposal, and sometimes come up with some surprising solutions using dies for a different cartridge to accomplish their purpose, so someone more knowledgeable than I may have some ideas.

DG

[Emmagee303]

Herr Gebirgsjager:
I too am familiar with "Winston". I also came across the very same threads in the forum you speak of from long ago. It was the Western Bullet forum if memory serves correct. I too was very disheartened by his rhetoric and ad hominum approach to the subject. I also noted his lack of evidential matter on the subject and have dismissed him outright. Enough said.
On a lighter note: I have purchased a set of Lee Pacesetter dies in standard .323 diameter and will see if they will work on the following boolits. I purchaed some .321 diameter cast boolits lubed with SPG which I use regurlarly on my Martini-Henry loads which works well. I am also going to purchase some 200 grain .318 diameter round nose soft point jacketed boolits to experiment with. My plan is to compare each one to see which ones my Old Frau prefers. I will post the results.
Next question: Powder and load data for above mentioned boolits. What suggestions do you or any one else in the Forum have for this? I use 4895 currently for my .303 British hand loads and have seen some mention of it being a good choice for the Gewehr 88/05.
Thought/suggestions please.
I do sincerely thank all of you who have responded to this thread and shared your input. I am here to learn and share.

V/r
Terry

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Hi Terry-- Thanks for your appreciation and discerning comments. Nuff said.

I don't think you'll be at all disappointed with the accuracy of your Gew 88, shooting either the 200 gr. Jacketed bullets or the .321 SPG lubed cast bullets. That is the one thing that has always seemed to be something you can count on, these rifles shoot surprisingly well. IMR 4895 is what I load mine with, so that's a good place to start. But, there are so many other powders now days (if you can find them!) that I have no doubt some of them would perform quite well also.

You could also try the "Universal Military Rifle Cast Bullet Load" of which there are a couple of versions--do a search of this website. 8mm Mauser is one of those that seem to perform well with those loads.

So you like British rifles ! ? ! I guess your "handle" is a clue. I am a big fan of the Lee Enfield series, and although I admit that the No. 4 is probably a bit better, my favorite has always been the No. 1 Mk. III. I've got a pretty good collection/accumulation of them, and find the Indian-made version to be pretty much the equal of the British-made specimens. I've also made some nice sporters from rifles that had previously been molested by Bubba past the point of return to original. I recently finished up my last, as I can see Age 80 coming down the trail not too far, and the cup is now almost full. Here's some "eye candy" for you....but there's more. I still love 'em, but in the last decade or so I kind of drifted away to Krags. Nice to meet you. Please continue to contribute posts and knowledge to this, the best internet firearms forum.

DG

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[Emmagee303]

Herr Gebirgsjager:

Well NOW you really have my attention! Oh my yes i do adore the Enfields! You caught the bait on my handle! Good on you sir! You have a wonderful collection I must say. I always appreciate the sight of the old SMELLIES... My favourite is hands down the P-14 of which i have 2. A Remington and an Eddystone and they shoot spectacularly. I will take heed of your information on the load components for my Frau 88. I only have a few more items to purchase (powder and brass) before I get cracking on loading for it. I will certainly keep posting on this forum as I also believe it is by far the finest and I'm a picky bastard!
Well NOW i have some eye candy for you: Do enjoy...

[Gtek]

Make a pound cast then you will know/see everything.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Choke...choke...gasp..an honest to goodness Lewis Gun! Fantastic! Is it operational? They had to be some of the neatest LMGs ever invented. I'll bet you stole yours from Tom Selleck's "High Road To China!" Another pair in "The Sand Pebbles", if I recall correctly. I don't know why we (meaning USA) didn't make more use of them than they did. I'll bet that assemblage of tools and accessories was harder to come by than the gun. Congratulations on a very fine collection!

I see that, like these, one of your P-14s has an ordnance repair to the heel. Besides these, 3 Eddystones, I have one made by Winchester, but no photo. On the Winchester I had to do a repair job on the handguard. It was split end to end, and I lined the inside with a nylon mesh coated with AccraGlas. Can't see the repair, came out nicely. None of mine have the actual volley sight, but all retain the base.

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DG

[El Gato]

Nice Gew 1888!

Mine likes the Lee Maximum Mold sized to .324. They drop around 235 grains. Mine slugs at .322. Here is my cat Samson with a clip.

Nice Lewis gun!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I know that you desire to draw me (or anyone else) into a lengthy, protracted argument. It just ain't gonna happen. We delete argumentative posts routinely. You're just about outta here. One more.

DG

[Emmagee303]

Gtek: Thank you for the suggestion. I've never done this technique before. Could you explain it please and provide a list of materials needed? Much appreciated Sir!

V/r
Terry

[NikA]

I have a clip of P/88 ammo and an 1890 Erfurt with what I believe is the original barrel (matching, not upgraded to 88/05 spec) as well as access to a machine shop and all the measuring equipment that goes with it. Let me know if you'd like me to measure anything to settle this debate and I will do so this upcoming weekend.

ETA: I also have samples of WWII German issue 7.92 ball. Unfortunately, I do not have any WWI-era spitzer ball to measure.

[Emmagee303]

DG: Thank you for the praise. I have put my soul into my collection and am honoured by your words. Yes, she is fully operational and all original. It is a C&R piece that I bought out of one of my dearest friends collection many years ago. He passed suddenly in 96 and I assisted the family with his estate. He was an NFA dealer (SOT) and had an amazing collection. The family let me buy the Lewis. It is very sentimental to me and I keep her is perfect order. While I was waiting for the transfer paperwork to come through I went about scouring the nation for spares and accessories. I actually bought SARCO out of Lewis spares. What you see pictured is only a slice of my entire collection. The rest of my Enfields and accoutrements I have yet to show but will get round to posting more of the Enfields and such. My Lewis was made in January of 1918 according to serial number research. It shoots like a dream. I have burned out 2 barrels since I have had it. Yes, I used to shoot a lot! My friend and I would go out at least once a month and have go with many MG's from his collection and mine. I can truly say I have had my hands on so many wonderful and amazing pieces of history and learned to service them from original manuals or just by intuition. It comes naturally for me and is a gift. I also had an original Vickers MK-1 made by the Crayford Works in Kent England in February of 1917. I traced the serial number and found that it actually saw service with the Portuguese Army in March of 1918 during the Michael offensive launched by the Germans. Sadly, oh so sadly, I had to part with it in 2012. But that is another story that breaks my heart. Oh the memories...
I'm so very grateful I found you lot. It's so nice to be able to share our goodies and also share the history and pass on the knowledge. Your links won't open for some reason...ugh... I could talk your ears off about the Lewis, Enfields, British Army Kit, Ammunition, The Great War, and so on... I will save more for the next time Sir!
Cheers!
Terry

[Emmagee303]

El Gato: That picture speaks a thousand words to me! Ha! I just love the cat!!! Nice En bloc and German soft cap too! I wish mine were not converted to the charger clips as I have always loved the Mannlicher en bloc system! Well done!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Your links won't open for some reason...ugh... I could talk your ears off about the Lewis, Enfields, British Army Kit, Ammunition, The Great War, and so on... I will save more for the next time Sir!
Cheers!
Terry

Sorry--don't know what happened there. I usually upload jpgs from my photo files, but for some reason these became attachments. I don't know how to do attachments-- so it's a mystery.
DG

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[Emmagee303]

DG: Beautiful pieces you have! Nice job on the wood repair!

[Emmagee303]

So now I am a bit perplexed. I wonder if I should go ahead and special order a set of .318 dies to go along with my standard .323 dies? I don't have any brass yet, still waiting for an auction to finish that I have bid on for that. Also don't have my boolits yet. I just ordered them. .321" 170 grain round nose flat point. Also haven't decided on a powder yet. So I'm in the "gathering" stages. I'm anxious to shoot this piece but want to have all the necessary kit to begin re-loading ASAP.
Here is what I am doing on the rifle at present. For the past 2 weeks I have been scrubbing the bore. I am using Hoppes Bench Rest copper solvent as a cleaner. I have used all types of solvents over the decades and found that this one is best not only for removing copper and lead fouling but also for heavily baked on carbon and powder fouling including cordite. My technique is to run wet patches through he bore then brush with a .35 cal copper bore brush 20 to 30 stokes then dry patch. Repeat several times then run wet patches of solvent to wet the bore and then leave overnight. Follow up the next day with same procedure. I'm still getting nasty black fouling out and copper fouling from decades of shooting. It seems never ending but I want the bore to be spotless and thoroughly clean and free of all fouling. The bore itself look very nice and the rifling is good, no pitting, no frosting, and no breaks in the lands all the way to the muzzle. Lands are worn a bit shallow of course form many rounds of .323" jacketed ball ammo but all in all it looks nice.
I am considering acquiring some .323", 200-ish grain round nose cast boolits and comparing their performance against the .321" 170 grain cast boolits. Also up for consideration is to cast the chamber and throat to ascertain more exact dimensions of the throat, chamber, and, bore diameter. I have never performed this technique so will need a comprehensive "how-to" guidance on this. Lastly, i still need some input on "pet-loads" using cast and jacketed boolits. Powder preferences, boolit weights and configurations, velocities, and pressures.
If any of you can address any of these issues, please do. Your information is greatly appreciated and I thank you!

Just for giggles, here are some pics of some original "J" and "S" patronen (rounds) from my collection. I did some measuring for reference.
The first photo is a mic of the "J" round nose boolit diameter.
Second photo is a photo of the "S" cartridge.
Third photo is head-stamp of the "S" cartridge.
Fourth photo is a mic of the "S" Spitzer boolit.
Fifth photo is both types of rounds in En-Bloc clips.
Sixth photo is head-stamp of the "J" cartridge.

Cheers all!
Terry

[swheeler]

I've got an 88 that has been bubbafied by myself. It has a .318" groove at the muzzle and .321 just an inch up from the chamber. I never did a pound cast but did a cerrosafe cast of the chamber, found a .355" neck diameter, short throat(all I'd read on internet was the opposite, supposed to be LONG THROAT) and fire .325 inch Lee 170 gr cast with red dot and 4198. I put Rem 700 sights on the barrel and it shoots more accurate than I can hold, even with the bullets having to be loaded so short. I believe it is a cz barrel, no cartridge interupter so I use enbloc clip.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Hello again, esteemed Lewis Gun Owner :mrgreen: (envy)--

I did not do the ordnance wood repairs. They were present when I purchased the rifles. I don't know for sure, but I think that the rifles came from India and that Indian Ord did the work, as this lot appeared on the market about the same time as did the Indian SMLE rifles. I did refinish the stocks. I purposely did not stain the repairs and left them the same color as received as being good examples of the art of wood replacement.

Look at it this way--well this is how I'd look at it---you've got the .318 bullets and you've got the .323 dies, so what's the harm in trying? Just try 2 or 3, and if it won't work out, then buy the .318 dies. Either way I'd get and use a Lee FCD.

Try either IMR or H-4895 for starters. It's a great powder that works in most .30 Cal. type loads. If you're not happy, then try something else, but I'll bet you'll get good results. Works great in .303 also.

Your cartridge headstamp translates to: Fabrica de Cartouchoes y Pulvoras Quimicas (National Cartridge & Powder Factory), Portugal.

Those Gew. 88 clips, the originals, are hard to come by, are they not? I have exactly 2, for which I had to pay $25 each. I also have about a dozen replicas purchased from GPC several years ago that look great, but don't work.

Not a positive I.D. on second cartridge, but may be: .303 Brit. round made by Rudge-Whitworth cycle Co. Nottingham, UK 1915-18. (?) I can't read the headstamp as clearly as in the photo of the 8mm ctg. Looks like an "R"? 03 maybe 15 or 45 (if 45, doesn't square with WW I dates) and unsure about the bottom character. Maybe 9?

What is the overall length of the J and JS rounds? Not too critical really, but lends itself to the contention that the notch in the receiver ring was not ground to accommodate the JS pointed bullet. I think there were some changes made in the bullets anyway, and no guarantee that Portugal-production is the same as German . In the case of your particular rifle, converted to pattern 88/05, the notch would have preceded the conversion by several years. To test the theory one would have to have an unnotched specimen and an en-bloc clip loaded with JS ammo, which you do, and attempt insertion.

As an aside, good to know Gew. 88 lore, the letter J was originally I for Infantrie. At the time of development of the 1888 the Germans used Gothic style writing, and the I looked like an English J and became to be know as such in other countries. I had a good friend, now deceased, from E. Germany whom I put to work (unpaid!) translating the writing on German WW I postcards. Very interesting in that some were written in the Latin alphabet, and some in Gothic. He had a hard time with the Gothic, and wasn't able to completely translate some of them. He said that when he went to grammer school (gymnasium) in the early 1930s that the transition had already been made.



DG

[El Gato]

Emmagee303,

Thanks a lot! My gatos seem to like my classic rifles best. I am lucky to have 3 Gew 1888 clips; they are difficult to find.

The Gew 1888 is underrated in my opinion. I used to own a Gew 1888/05/35 but I gave it to my Godson for his confirmation present. She shot extremely well with jacketed bullets and lyman 323470. I even took it to Camp Perry!

Good luck with your Gew 1888 adventure!

[flintlocke]

I have an 88 and a 1904 Steyr, and have slugged a number of very early German and Austrian sporting rifles...my findings correspond with Winston 10's posts...I have NEVER measured any groove diameter anywhere as small as .318"...everything I can remember, including some very high quality Haenel sporters ran .320 to .321. I have recommended to the owners, and in my own rifles...if you shoot jacketed, Hornady and Speer .321" will give you great accuracy with good velocity safely. I shoot .324" gas checked cast in my own rifles as well. The 1904 Steyr with .320" groove as follows, 175 Lee GC with Lee Liq Alox,13 gr Red Dot, Rem case,Fed 210m gives 1700 fps+2.2" 5 shot groups at 100 yds, issue sights. Jacketed 170 gr Speer .321" flat point, 42 gr of 3031 at 2600 fps for a 2.1" 5 shot group at 100yd. In experiments, I have driven gas checked cast to 2500 fps with RL-7 with no leading but terrible accuracy, 4" at 100yd. One mans experience.

[El Gato]

Terry,

I have found that this .322 bullet shoots extremely well for my Gew 1888s. It does extremely well at 200 yards. I used 42 grains of Vectan TU5000. Again, I would slug the barrel.

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/29114

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I've got an 88 that has been bubbafied by myself. It has a .318" groove at the muzzle and .321 just an inch up from the chamber. I never did a pound cast but did a cerrosafe cast of the chamber, found a .355" neck diameter, short throat(all I'd read on internet was the opposite, supposed to be LONG THROAT) and fire .325 inch Lee 170 gr cast with red dot and 4198. I put Rem 700 sights on the barrel and it shoots more accurate than I can hold, even with the bullets having to be loaded so short. I believe it is a cz barrel, no cartridge interupter so I use enbloc clip.

Interesting information, Mr. Wheeler. Certainly contradicts some previous opinions. Sounds to me like the original neck was enlarged. But, as previously stated, not all rifles received all modifications. Why do you draw the conclusion that your barrel is a CZ barrel? Are there markings indicating that? Are there any Turkish markings on your rifle?

DG

[KenT7021]

I made the GPC M88 clips function by placing a piece of .250 inch flat stock in the clip and using a hammer on the front flared portion of the clip.They're not as smooth as an original but they work.

[swheeler]

DG it is a Spandau 1889 with spoonhandle bolt, pretty sure the barrel is not the orginal, think maybe it was CZ marked and no Turkish marklings anywhere on the action. I can not be sure though because looking in the notes for it last time it was fired was 4-5-2010, also the last time I saw it. :-)

edit; notes say the Lee 175 cast bullet sized at .325" touches rifling at 2.699" OAL in this gun, short throat. 2.669" coal is short in every other 8x57 I have.

[jrmartin1964]

Never ceases to amaze and amuse me how quickly a thread about the Gew. 88 turns into something other than a friendly discussion. All I have to say is that my 1890 Spandau, which does carry the "S" on the receiver but no other modifications (it still carries the long sight leaf graduated for the P-88 ammunition, and the magazine still must use the enbloc clip), measures 8mm (0.3149") bore diameter and 8.15mm (0.3208") groove diameter. The barrel is, by all accounts, the original. I base this on the contour of the barrel ahead of the chamber, where there is an abrupt contour to the barrel ahead, rather than the longer more gradual taper of the later "improved" barrel contour.

The best advice that can be given on these rifles is to slug YOUR barrel, and carefully and accurately measure YOUR barrel's bore and groove dimensions before the first cartridge is loaded (assuming you have judged for yourself, or a competent gunsmith has judged, your rifle to be safe to fire in the first place).

After that, load a few test cartridges, with whatever diameter bullet seems most appropriate, and after firing measure the inside diameter of the cartridge case. This will give you a ballpark idea of what diameter bullet YOUR chamber will accept.

For mine, I size cast bullets to 0.323", and on those rare occasions when jacketed bullets are used they are also 0.323" diameter. That's in MY rifle. YMMV

Measure first.

Jim

[Gtek]

My pound cast- preferably fired case in that chamber spent primer in place. If extractor is a pain or just leave it alone and turn off rim of case first. Lathe, drill press, hand drill, file, belt sander, whatever needed. Now take a propane and just almost cherry up front 1/3 case to just below shoulder, set down on concrete floor and walk away or drop in water if in a hurry. When cool confirm dry in/out and chamfer inside neck, and with flare die or needle nose pliers work just as well, open front of neck until you just barely get it going home. Now stand and fill with lead melt or epoxy up to just 1/4"-3/8" below shoulder, case done. Having lathes the next part is just a step for me and several other ways to skin the cat. I take a piece of brass a couple inches long .375" OD and center drill one end to a depth of about .625", .250" ID. Pull out about 2.00" and turn to just slip bore diameter approx. 1.50" long and cut clean, that piece done. Last piece, .250" steel rod about 36" long from hardware store, cut or confirm one clean nice square end with VERY small radius that fits nicely in brass. Install rod back in brass and mark with Sharpie on rod at base of brass, remove brass, and then oil the bore prior to next step. Beginning just behind marker line start wrapping electrical tape every six inches to a slip/snug bore diameter (same direction throughout) as you work rod into bore to chamber depth. Once chamber depth is reached I grab rod with full grip and mark at top off hand, remove rod then nice clean cut at line. Find a nice piece of dead soft and work to a almost dowel Hot Dog shape to just fit bore 2.00" long or so. Case in chamber, close bolt, I like to remove barrel/rec from stock if possible and secure to bench for feel and no movement. Tap in lead, tap in brass, insert rod and tap to resistance at bottom. A 2 lb. ball peen or a little more with light to medium no bounce swings start smushing till you feel and hear bottom. Open bolt fully and or remove bolt, lightly tap out your new pound cast and away it goes to mic. No time frame for measuring, and last as long as you want if treated nicely. Screw it up, not happy, take a pair of pliers, pull out the lead and do it again, again, etc.. There you are, I know long winded but might save you some think thunk time if attempt is made.

[Emmagee303]

God's Holy Trousers.....what have I done...:veryconfu

[Gtek]

You did start it! It probably sounds like a lot but with the stuff being accessible I would say less than an hour tops start to finish with a definitive closure. Curious though, how many hours you got rubbing on that drum thang!

[Emmagee303]

GTEK: I have had it for 20 plus years, burned out 2 barrels, so far,... LOL Have had to only replace a few extractors and 1 mainspring. I don't abuse it though when I'm out "rubbing" on it. Run a drum or 2 through it, (short bursts), the let her cool... Cleaning usually takes me several days as I go over each part, nook, and cranny thoroughly. It' spotless when I'm finished. After all, one mishap to the receiver and I'm done for. Can't replace it. I have enough spares for it to last a lifetime and in the past several years I only take her to the field once in a blue moon. I've got loads of Enfields to keep my Cordite addiction at bay. Come out to Oklahoma, look me up, and we'll have a go with her! In payment for that you can pound cast my "Gewey 88"! Bahahahaha!

[Emmagee303]

jrmartin:

I do appreciate the information greatly. My intent when I originally posted was never to let this turn into a "pissing contest". I feel I have contributed to just that and do apologize to ALL including WINSTON. I am going to re-slug the barrel a couple more times and post the findings. I am in search of powder at the moment, (may as well be chicken lips) lol. I have some .321 cast boolits on the way. 175 grain RNFP to start with. I do have about 5lbs of Accurate 2230 but can find no load data for it in 8x57. I think I need to take a couple of my Enfields and maybe my Martini-Henry out to send some frustration downrange...

[swheeler]

Interesting information, Mr. Wheeler. Certainly contradicts some previous opinions. Sounds to me like the original neck was enlarged. But, as previously stated, not all rifles received all modifications. Why do you draw the conclusion that your barrel is a CZ barrel? Are there markings indicating that? Are there any Turkish markings on your rifle?

DG

A .355" diameter chamber neck should take a bullet up to .331" at .012" brass neck thickness, but the throat doesn't want anything over .325. It is S marked and notched front ring says Spandau 1889, GEW 88 left rec, 4 digit serial number 3###, no stripper clip adapter, no cartridge interupter, open mag well and uses enbloc. The only headspace gauge I have for 8mm is a 8x57 FIELD gauge and it closes on it, so my brass is expanded to 35 cal and sized back just enough to feel slight crush creating a false shoulder, after initial firing it is kept seperate from other 8mm. It weights 6.7 pounds with 5 in clip, slender and fits the hand like a 94 Win and points very nice and will celebrate it's 132nd birthday this year.https://i.imgur.com/Zjl69tg.jpghttps://i.imgur.com/5W8Jpir.jpg

[swheeler]

Never ceases to amaze and amuse me how quickly a thread about the Gew. 88 turns into something other than a friendly discussion. All I have to say is that my 1890 Spandau, which does carry the "S" on the receiver but no other modifications (it still carries the long sight leaf graduated for the P-88 ammunition, and the magazine still must use the enbloc clip), measures 8mm (0.3149") bore diameter and 8.15mm (0.3208") groove diameter. The barrel is, by all accounts, the original. I base this on the contour of the barrel ahead of the chamber, where there is an abrupt contour to the barrel ahead, rather than the longer more gradual taper of the later "improved" barrel contour.

The best advice that can be given on these rifles is to slug YOUR barrel, and carefully and accurately measure YOUR barrel's bore and groove dimensions before the first cartridge is loaded (assuming you have judged for yourself, or a competent gunsmith has judged, your rifle to be safe to fire in the first place).

After that, load a few test cartridges, with whatever diameter bullet seems most appropriate, and after firing measure the inside diameter of the cartridge case. This will give you a ballpark idea of what diameter bullet YOUR chamber will accept.

For mine, I size cast bullets to 0.323", and on those rare occasions when jacketed bullets are used they are also 0.323" diameter. That's in MY rifle. YMMV

Measure first.

Jim

I see nothing "unfriendly"?????

[Emmagee303]

ALL:

I just MIC'd the muzzle of the barrel. Below are my results. The deeper I went into the bore, the smaller the diameter became. That is where I came up with .311 diameter. I only went about 1/8" to 1/4" or so deep in the bore to extract the below ,measurement.
Have not re-slugged it yet nor did chamber and throat cast. Just a bit of fiddling so far, as my schedule will permit.

Terry

[john.k]

When you measure a small ID with a caliper ,the dimensions of the caliper jaws affect the measurement ......basically ,for an accurate reading,the jaws need sharp V edges ....when in fact they are flat......Consequently ,the measurement is not accurate.........The only accurate method is to use plug gauges ,and find the largest plug that fits.........The usual way is to "slug " the bore ,and measure the dimensions of the slug.

[Emmagee303]

John: You may not be able to see detail in the photos but my the end of my calipers that I measured with do have sharp V edges and are not flat. I did slug the barrel twice but only came up with .311" I know that cannot be correct. I've slugged my Martini-Henry in the past but I must be doing something wrong. Let me ask you this: I normally use an oversized size lead ball for black powder guns to slug and drive it in from muzzle to breech. I then measure with my calipers using the old Millwrights method. Can you suggest a better method?

Many thanks!

[swheeler]

John: You may not be able to see detail in the photos but my the end of my calipers that I measured with do have sharp V edges and are not flat. I did slug the barrel twice but only came up with .311" I know that cannot be correct. I've slugged my Martini-Henry in the past but I must be doing something wrong. Let me ask you this: I normally use an oversized size lead ball for black powder guns to slug and drive it in from muzzle to breech. I then measure with my calipers using the old Millwrights method. Can you suggest a better method?

Many thanks!

You are measuring the BORE diameter, measure the largest part of the slug to get the groove diameter. Drive your slug in and inch from the muzzle, drive it back out, then do the same at the breech. If you are paper patching the BORE diameter will be more useful, but you shooting GG cast bullets or powder coated you want to know the GROOVE dia.

my slug from the muzzle measured .318" x .310+" sound familiar

edit; 7.9mm=.3110

[Tedly]

Accurate and correct information

[Emmagee303]

swheeler: Perfect! Thank you for clarifying. I hope to have the results in a few days. Will post results.

V/r
Terry

[Emmagee303]

Tedly: Thank you for confirming method. I had been doing it incorrectly. I am still quite a novice at loading cast boolits and determining the correct diameters of bore, land and groove diameters. This informnation will pot me closer to the x-ring!

All the best,

Terry

[Emmagee303]

Just curious if anyone has used Winchester 847 powder to load cast boolits for the 88? Can you share your thoughts and results. I'm have a "difficult" time locating H4895 or IMR4895 but have access to 847 Winchester. I've been scouring load data online but am having difficulty finding good cast boolit data. I know I need to keep my pressure down below 40,000 CUP. I have some 170 grain .321 diameter SPG lubed cast boolits on the way to start off with. I'm not going to up any rounds yet until I do a final "correct" slugging of the bore.
If my land and groove diameters will permit, I would like to move up to a heavier cast boolit and possibly some jacketed. But that is down the road. Slugging first priority!

Thoughts anyone?

Terry

[swheeler]

Terry I think where the confusion comes in is when people say I measured the bore and got .### inches and they show groove diameter. To me you are measuring the barrel to get groove and bore diameters. I also can see from my notes that I measured the slug with calipers, not the most precise way to get the numbers.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Beautiful rifle, Mr. Wheeler. Do you know its history? It is certainly one of the nicest conversions I've seen. Probably started life as a carbine? Just guessing, because the original carbines had the butter knife bolt handle, but any conversion could have the straight bolt with the knob converted. I like your cast reloads also, and your explanation of how you compensate for the larger throat. Very nice set up.

DG

[Emmagee303]

swheeler: Understood perfectly. I should have specified either groove or land dia. Just curious, what do you use to slug a barrel? I use a .50cal lead ball for my Martini-Henry. I was planning to use a .32cal or slightly larger ball for the 88 if I can find some locally. Is there something else I can substitute? Lead sinker?

Terry

[swheeler]

Terry I've got a small bottle full of pure lead bullets of all sizes I cast up when had pot full doing muzzle loader stuff, I usually find a casting that is .020 or couple calibers larger and use that.

[swheeler]

Beautiful rifle, Mr. Wheeler. Do you know its history? It is certainly one of the nicest conversions I've seen. Probably started life as a carbine? Just guessing, because the original carbines had the butter knife bolt handle, but any conversion could have the straight bolt with the knob converted. I like your cast reloads also, and your explanation of how you compensate for the larger throat. Very nice set up.

DG

I don't know much history on it, I bought it at a gun show about 10 years ago for $60. It was pretty rough, nothing matched and barrel was pitted at muzzle, I hacked the barrel off to 22 in and crowned by hand, got a 1x6 of walnut from local lumber yard and added onto top of forend with acraglass gel and inletted then bedded it, I also added a pancake on the butt. I bought a set of 700 Rem steel sights off ebay, soldered them on, test fired, then I blued it with Mark Lee express blue. I probably have a hundred in it now, always thought I would rebarrel it to 7x57, that probably will never happen now, a whole lot of "things" that will never happen since I'm retired and have ALL this free time!:bigsmyl2: right

[El Gato]

Terry,

I have found that the best powder for cast in the Gew 1888 is Shooter's World Buffalo Rifle or AA 5744. Mine does exceptionally well with 21 grains for heavy bullets (200 - 250 grain) or 24 grains for lighter bullets (165-170 grain)

This bullet and the Lyman Original do very well: http://www.westernbullet.com/noe3gr.html

I would of course have them sized appropriately.

[Emmagee303]

UPDATE: I measured the (groove) diameter of the barrel. The muzzle end mic's at .322 and the breech/throat mic's at .3215.
I checked the headspace with a new field gauge and it did not close. Far from it in fact.
The rifling marks on the slugs looked nice and crisp. Pleased so far.
I was able to find 2lbs of ACC 5744 per El Gato's recommendation. Going to give his recipes a go.
Next question is this: Would it be advisable to shoot .323 diameter cast boolits through it? Also, what diameter jacketed boolits would you all recommend?

Thanks for walking me though all this gents!

Terry

[swheeler]

Those measurements kind of blew your .321 cast bullets out of the water, too bad. The .323 cast or jacketed .321 should be fine, it would be better if your barrel was tapered the opposite way, but try cast first and see how it does. I would make sure the barrel was spotless clean right in front of the chamber, hope for the best.

[samari46]

My 88 also slugs out at .321 so I can use .323 diameter bullets. In the presence of caution I have slugged it more than a few times and always got .321 so .323 bullets it is. Cast not jacketed. Think you got your powder numbers mixed up. Should be 748 as made by Winchester not 847 as stated. But you should not try to drop 748 powder charges as they become erratic. Stick powders yes ball powders no.

[Emmagee303]

El Gato: As stated I got 2lbs of AA5744. Can you tell me if the pressure CUP stays below 40,000 with the 2 loads you posted above? Just want to make sure. Does your 88 do better with the lighter or heavier cast boolits? I'm eyeing the 250 grain but also considering some 200-ish grain also.

Terry

[Emmagee303]

Samari46: Yes I did get the powder numbers jumbled. I'm old... lol. I settled on the AAC 5744 as suggested by El Gato. Just want to make certain of my pressures with that powder with the intent to use 170-220 grain cast boolits in .323 diameter. Thoughts? I ask a lot of questions in areas I am not that familiar with. That's how I learn. Been reloading for just over 40 years now but never messed with cast boolits until I got my Martini-Henry and it is still a work in progress on the loads. I enjoy loading the blackpowder and cast combination. This is new territory so I'm SOAKING UP INFO LIKE A SPONGE! Thanks for the help Sir!

Terry

[El Gato]

I have no clue with the CUP pressure. I just extrapolated loads by using 30-40 Krag Data. Mine does well with either but the Lee Maximum Mold (my heavy bullet 8x57 mold) does better at 200 yards. Back in October, I shot this load at 50 yards using the rear flip up sight leaf. I used mixed brass, converted from 30-06, 21 grains of Shooter's World Buffalo Rifle and the Lee Maximum mold.

Here is the Lee Maximum Mold: https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/000068mmmax/8mm-maximum-225-grain-double-cavity-reproduction-mold

276992

[Emmagee303]

El Gato: Very nice! I will try to get some load data on the AAC 5744. The pressure thing does give me pause.

[swheeler]

I have no clue with the CUP pressure. I just extrapolated loads by using 30-40 Krag Data. Mine does well with either but the Lee Maximum Mold (my heavy bullet 8x57 mold) does better at 200 yards. Back in October, I shot this load at 50 yards using the rear flip up sight leaf. I used mixed brass, converted from 30-06, 21 grains of Shooter's World Buffalo Rifle and the Lee Maximum mold.

Here is the Lee Maximum Mold: https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/000068mmmax/8mm-maximum-225-grain-double-cavity-reproduction-mold

276992

I have that same mold and can tell from the picture your rifle is WAY LARGER in the throat than mine!

Here is the lee 175 gr 8mm bullet inserted in the muzzle of AG Oberndorf on LEFT, and 88comm on the Right
https://i.imgur.com/EBsVer2.jpg

Here is the 8mm maximum seting in the muzzle of 88, think there would be enoug bearing
https://i.imgur.com/eI032Rl.jpg

[El Gato]

Cool!

[Emmagee303]

ALL:
I have AAC 5774 powder and ordered the following cast boolits for my 1888/05 pictured in my beginning post.
.325" 250 gr. NOE #326378 RNGC
.323" 170 grain RNFPBB
.324" 190 grain GC SAECO RN

Also:
.322" 190 grain JACKETED HPBT

I am looking for load data for the AAC 5774 powder with the above boolits but am having a difficult time locating charts that list this combination. I could use some help please...

Many thanks!
Terry

[flintlocke]

My experiments don't fit your list very well..but 23 gr of 5744, Fed Primer, 175(?) Lee gas check(.324 dia.) gave me 1600fps (28.5" bbl 1904 Steyr Mannlicher just .320" groove dia). Wheel weights with some tin around 12 bhn. Lee Liquid. Accuracy around 3.6 inches at 100 yds. Ed Harris' 13 gr Red Dot at 1700 fps and 2.2" 5 shot group is what I settled on. I didn't make a lot of effort with 5744 because of the unburned powder kernels in the bore. Yes, I know it's not a problem, I just don't like it.
Major error in above post...found a page had fallen from my reloading logbook. Updated test with 5744 and Lee gas checked bullet. 27 grains of 5744, avg 2130 fps and 2.1" 5 shot group at 100 yards.

[El Gato]

I found that Shooter's World Buffalo Rifle had similar properties to AA 5744 without the bore residue/ unburnt kernels. I have switched completely over to SW Buffalo Rifle because of this (and it is less expensive.)

[Emmagee303]

El Gato/flintlocke: I already have 2lbs of 5744 so will try that first. Just waiting on boolits and brass to arrive. I'll see if I can locate shooter World Buffalo Rifle powder also. As stated I've a variety of boolits to experiment with using the 5744. I'll start with the load data you provided El Gato. I'm anxious to send some lead downrange with this old Frau. Meantime I'm still cleaning the bore. I use Hoppes Benchrest copper solvent. The barrel had many decades of built up fouling in the grooves and quite a bit of copper fouling but after 3 weeks of scrubbing every few days it is looking so much better. This is my first non-Enfield rifle I have loaded for in over 25 years so I'm excited to get cracking!
Thank you both for your advice and information.

Terry

[El Gato]

I wish you the best Terry!

I think you will enjoy the '88.

[flintlocke]

Terry, I've had several rifles with the old cupro-nickel jacket fouling in them...I was always deathly afraid of that toxic crap in Hatcher's Notebook. But I found that Bore Tech Eliminator will lift the nickel without etching the barrel steel. Ammonia based solvents just won't work, as far as I can tell.

[Emmagee303]

El Gato: Much appreciated. I plan to keep you all updated on my journey with the old Frau! It's the only rifle in my entire collection that is NOT and Enfield! They may get jealous... When I have more time I'll have to share with you why it is that this rifle is so special to me. I'm dressing her up also. Just got an original 1st pattern sling complete with quick detach rear swivel and parade loop. Also picked up an original muzzle cover that is regimental marked and in fine condition. Found a cache of original early pattern brass charger clips (not en-bloc). I'm not holding my breath on an original bayonet though. They were rare as chicken lips back in the 80's and now have reached the "unobtanium" status. The Ersatz bayonets can be found but they will fetch 300.00. I had a Turk model back in the day that I paid 15.00 for. Lol.... Oh those were the days...

Will be updating soon.
By the way: Below are photos of my cat. The Belle Kittimus Maximus Robustus! She shares my milk and cookies... lol
Damn it! My pics keep downloading sideways! Ughhh. Sorry...
Cheers!
Terry

[El Gato]

Wow!

Nice Cat! The one in my avatar is named Bella!

Here is my other tuxedo cat Billie hamming it up with some 8x57 cartridge's. Don't worry about the muzzle picture...I used a tripod and time delay. I have an Ersatz Bayonet for mine. It is is neat artifact in itself. It fits the Gew 1871/84 (Tightly), Gew 1888, Gew 1898 and M1 Rifle with no modifications!

[Emmagee303]

El Gato: Now that's a classy Kat! Our Belle likes to come in to my "green room" where I have my "museum of militaria collection" and just roam around sniffing at the boxes, crates, web gear, and such. I think she enjoys the smell of it in there. I know I certainly do!
That is a dandy 88 sir! Do I spy an original sling? The muzzle pic is outstanding by the way! It truly highlights the look of the 88's muzzle. Big, bawdy, and fierce! When I get more of my accessories for my 88 I will post more photos. I'm still working on the cleaning of the barrel. I have always "dressed out" all of the pieces in my collection to original as issued standards. I'm terribly OCD... Lol.

[Emmagee303]

Flintlocke:

I greatly appreciate the input. I'm alwys looking for something "better and more efficient". Work smarter not harder. I will give it a go.

Cheers,
Terry

[El Gato]

Terry,

The sling is a modified Swedish Mauser sling that came with the rifle. I recently picked up a nicely made reproduction Gew 1888 sling on e-bay. I might shoot it this summer in service rifle matches.