Explaining the difference between presses

[Yogi]

Ok I've done a bonehead thing, I got involved trying to do the right thing . I have been reloading for a few years. I don't know it all and I know there is always more to learn. I've been trying to explain to someone that a lube sizing press and a Reloading press are different and do different operations. And that , well for example a bullet lube sizer die .356 (RCBS) won't just fit into a rock chucker and do the same operation ( yes with adapters and hand lubing them and installing gas checks as seperate operations it is possible I've been told) they can't understand that a cartridge sizing die is not the same thing as a bullet sizing die. Short of doing a ghostly thing thru the internet ( kinda like Bill Cosby in ghost dad on the phone ) how can I explain the difference to a less knowledgeable person with out starting an argument ? Any words from our more experienced, more knowledgeable, members? (Yes I should have just kept my mouth shut,
but sometimes the mouth talks before the brain reacts )

[Winger Ed.]

Now days, everyone except me has a smart phone in their pocket.
Show 'em a picture of the two, explain the parts & functions, and go from there.

If they grasp the concepts, great.

If their eyes glaze over and their mouth falls open,,,,,
change the subject, and talk about something else they can understand,
like the newest video game for example. Or ask them what is their favorite pizza.

[Brassmonkey]

If he thinks he can do something let him show you he can, otherwise why aggravate yourself?

[LUBEDUDE]

I gave up. The more I wrote, the more I needed to write. It just got too deep for me to write. I probably just got too nerdy.

There are much more skilled writers here than me that can articulate this much better.

I will say this though, Commercial manufacturers spend many thousands on their equipment. If it were economically feasible for ALL operations on one machine, they would have it.

Good luck Yogi, I feel for ya.

[onelight]

Answer #2 is the way I would do it.
If it's a lube sizer you have to force lube through holes in the die so the press is totally different.
The Lee sizers will work on many presses but do not fill the lube grooves so lube is applied off the press.

[rbuck351]

Maybe the first thing to explain is the difference between a bullet and a cartridge case. Explaining that a bullet is not a loaded round might open the eyes a bit. A case has a groove for extraction from a die, a bullet has no way to pull it back out when pushed in the die. The person you are trying to teach may not know that a bullet is not a cartridge. The term bullet is used by many non shooters to refer to a loaded round. It would be hard to explain why the die and the press has to be different if they don't know that a bullet and a cartridge are not the same thing.

[jmorris]

I've been trying to explain to someone that a lube sizing press and a Reloading press are different and do different operations.


Easy, you could size bullets to a given diameter with either, but reloading presses have no provisions for lube application.

[CraigOK]

Its a shame that someone you're trying to help and educate isn't more receptive. If they are wanting to do it all on a reloading press they could PC and achieve that. Good luck

[Petrol & Powder]

No good deed goes unpunished.

Attempting to teach someone that doesn't want to learn is a futile task.

And there's always the possibility that the person you are "teaching" is actually testing your knowledge and just playing dumb.

[Blanket]

ya can't fix stupid

[Baltimoreed]

Send your friend a copy of The abc’s of reloading. Tell him to read it and then if he has questions call. Might help.

[Garyshome]

Yep like trying to nail jello to the wall, or herd cats![smilie=b:

[GP100man]

Ifin the person won`t read the ABC`s of reloading then intrest span does not meet the need for a shooting addiction.

I usually stop listening when a person calls a round of ammunition a bullet & a magazine a clip.


I regress

GP100man

[mdi]

Explaining reloading to a non reloader can be impossible, depending on the mechanical ability, understanding and logical thinking, but; "reloading dies each do a different job in one of several different styles of reloading press from talking an empty cartridge case and ending up with a ready to shoot cartridge. Here, read my copy of the ABCs of Reloading...".

[Shawlerbrook]

Nowadays it is impossible to convince people what is what. I tend to turn around and walk away.

[Kevin Rohrer]

Let them do their own work by getting the necessary reference material and reading it for understanding.

[trails4u]

Maybe put it in another context that might help him understand. I worked as an automotive machinist for years... We had many presses in the shop....they all did something different, just as our presses and dies for reloading all do something different. It's a PROCESS, and processes by their very nature require steps..... ??

[ulav8r]

Take in an unlubed bullet and an empty cartridge case. Then explain what a lube press does to the bullet and what a reloading press does to a case.

[Gtrubicon]

Sounds like a candidate for a degree from u tube, like the rest of the fellas fast to type on their phones that have an attention span of under 1 minute

[Land Owner]

A reloading press is used to put the components together (i.e. powder, primer, case, and boolit), that make a functional piece of ammunition. The lube-sizer press functions to swage the out-of-round or oversized lead boolit into a known and fixed diameter by forcing it through a die, sometimes seating a gas check, and squeezes lube into the boolit grooves. These are two fundamentally different operations.

Don't taunt someone that is interested in our hobby because they don't understand. Ten of twenty responses (50% so far) are negative responses. Wow there's a lot of piling on going on. I thought others should be encouraged to learn this hobby. I didn't know casting was reserved for only those that are greatly enlightened, highly educated, and can read. Your first grade reading teachers were tough as nails on half of you. I am discouraged by this thread. Please don't beat the guy with a book.

[jeepyj]

I've taught many both hobbies in the last few years. Those with interest but don't know where to start I usually start with explaining that I treat it like two separate hobbies one reloading and the other is casting. Then pull out a pocket example of a cast boolit that has been powder coated and explain there are relatively few the actually made the projectiles but quite a few more that reload a cartridge. Next if I feel that if they are the type of person I wouldn't mind inviting to home I do so and will train them if I'm sceptical then I encourage them to play on YouTube and go from there. Good luck and yes it's good that you're trying to help.

[CraigOK]

Thats a good point, I learned to reload before I became aware of casting. That made it easier I think, but I still have a lot to learn

[Wayne Smith]

If he is actually interested introduce him to the Lyman company. They publish excellent instruction manuals for each and every tool and have a muzzleloading manual as well.

[ulav8r]

Taught myself reloading and casting. Started with a Lee Loader for my 308 in the summer of 1968. About a year later went to a Lyman 310 tool with 44 Special dies modified to load cut down brass for a German Reischrevolver. Late '72-'73 added a Rockchucker. Shortly after that I bought a Lyman manual, a Lee 429-214 mold and started casting. Not an expert by any means, but have done lots of reading and kept casting, loading, and shooting along when I had the time and money. Only one issue with any of my loads, loaded some military 308 brass that flattened primers and stuck the bolt a little. That load had been developed with commercial brass and foolishly thought it was enough below max to be OK in the military brass. Luckily no permanent damage and a lesson well remembered. That was about 1976-77.

[GregLaROCHE]

Find a video of each operation on YouTube and send them to him.

[Three44s]

I would redirect him to concentrate on reloading first, then casting after that. If he washes out at reloading he will not have as much to have to dispense with because he did not waste time fretting about making Boolits

I think showing him a casing, a j word and a boolit separately is a good idea as well. The rest should be his initiative in reading, then come back with informed questions.

Three44s

[Walks]

Three's has it right. But don't forget a primer.
Tape it to a business card.

[GP100man]

I agree we shouldn't beat em with book work , BUT as Three`s said it takes the persons initiative to want to learn .

As the ole sayin goes "you can lead a horse to water".

I`ve introduced many to reloading/handloading but few follow thru , either time or commitment issues get in the way.


GP

[WinchesterColt]

Thank you, LandOwner! I'm new to reloading and it can be difficult knowing where to start. It can be confusing - there's quite a bit to know.

But thankfully I know how to learn and how to study a subject. I don't go bananas when things don't make sense, and know how to work through the bogs.

There are two things that can make a huge difference, well, three actually, when learning something.

1. Gradients. Start with something simple, grasp that, then go onto the next. This applies both to studying and to physical skills. If the next step isn't making sense or one falls flat, go back a step and handle what was missed there. When there's a lot to know, it can be daunting confronted the full subject, so break it down into easily assimilable steps. Sometimes I find I have to just grab at something I CAN understand and then start relating/aligning other parts of the subject to what I do know.
2. When studying about something without the actual physical object to hand, one can feel squashed and get headaches or other physical phenomena. The solution is to see the actual object, or at least get pictures of it, or drawings. One can also make drawings or demonstrate how it works with objects like erasers, pens, rocks, etc.
3. And probably the most important - define the words. That seems to be the most violated of all the learning tools. How can anyone grasp a subject if he doesn't know what the terms mean, or thinks they mean something else? Just because a person thinks it's called a clip (instead of magazine) is no reason for ridicule. Once he's got the definitions cleared up, if he still insists on calling it a clip, then something is weird.

I'm sure those of you who are frustrated trying to pass on this information have fallen into some of these learning/teaching sink-holes. When you know something really well, it's difficult getting back to the simplest basics. It's like the newbie has to sweep the floor and take out the trash for some time, or wax on, wax off, before moving up to the next level. Don't give him everything at once - it can be overwhelming. Maybe just a simple overview and leave it at that.

[David2011]

Maybe explain that he can load ammunition with factory made bullets and he doesn’t need a bullet sizer or lubricator and that a lubrisizer is only for finishing cast lead bullets.

[Three44s]

WinchesterColt,

Reading your text on learning tells me you won’t have much trouble learning this craft!

Well done!

Three44s

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

You clearly have enough knowledge to explain these things to someone with a modicum of intelligence. So, since you haven't been successful yet, I suggest you use a metaphor from a more universal subject. How about comparing these things with a automotive wheel and tire. two different things, made by two different processes and different machines. The two items (wheel and tire) can't really do much by themselves, but put them two finished products together, and you can accomplish great things.

[1hole]

... I've been trying to explain to someone that a lube sizing press and a Reloading press are different and do different operations. ... how can I explain the difference to a less knowledgeable person without starting an argument ?

I presume your hard-headed friend is a "liberal Democrat"? If so, there's nothing you can say that will enlighten him about anything in the real world.


Any words from our more experienced, more knowledgeable, members? (Yes I should have just kept my mouth shut, but sometimes the mouth talks before the brain reacts )

Yes. When confronted with determined ignorance about anything, take a break, control your mouth and let them happily return to their bong. Seriously. :)

[Jack Stanley]

If it was easy , anyone could do it . For some it's more a matter of fishing for information they can use in another conversation to make themselves seem intelligent .

Using the equipment we all use is not difficult , it may require reading and comprehension skills though .

Jack

[1hole]

If it was easy , anyone could do it. ..... Using the equipment we all use is not difficult , it may require reading and comprehension skills though.

Roger that.

It's been some 65 years since I was a noob but I have not forgotten the stressful uncertainties of reloading even tho I had read much about it. Most of what I read back then included some nice photos showing the steps but in every instance the authors presumed the reader knew which parts in the photos were movable and which were not; bad stuff there.

With today's Youtube videos, beginner instruction is more understandable, sorta. I mean, some well intended guys who obviously don't know a thing about making helpful teaching videos make them anyway. And they often randomly talk (a LOT!) about what they "like to do" but a poor noob listener often has no reference to grasp what's being said so the disorganized stream of chatter often creates as much confusion as help; that need not, and should not, be.

Glad I finally know which end of a cartridge has the bullet. ;)

[Land Owner]

The struggle is real. I have often wondered, since the making of "The Matrix", why there is no "USB input device" in the back of our minds, so that we could instantly upload each other's information - without reinventing the wheel, so to speak. I have spoken to MANY souls with greater knowledge than me and the world through their eyes would be much keener if I could see it.

Admittedly, YouTube is full of amateurish "junk" videos, but there is a modicum of information that may be gleaned by turning off the sound and watching their hands as they (for example) disassemble a semi-auto pistol down to its barest essentials, tricks to getting those parts and pieces back together, or how brake pads on an imported vehicle - assembled in America - can foil even the most knowledgeable mechanic if I (shade tree mechanic) am attempting to change them myself in the driveway. I have yet to be stumped on YouTube in NOT finding a video (even a poor one) of something I want to do but have never done. I would rather watch a poor video and let my mechanically inclined mind fill in the gaps than ham handedly mangle parts and pieces through a hard won learning curve - one I may never repeat or will forget before I need to do it again.

Visual learning is a "whole brain" function while reading takes less operational space.
The research outcomes on visual learning make complete sense when you consider that our brain is mainly an image processor (much of our sensory cortex is devoted to vision), not a word processor. In fact, the part of the brain used to process words is quite small in comparison to the part that processes visual images.This by no means is an argument against reading. In fact, since our brains use less processor "space" devoted to reading, that suggests to me that an active reader is also doing other "things" in their brain while reading...like forming mental imagery.

[thorswhisper]

Why not hand he a piece of paper or better yet TEXT him this website address and then he could spend the next bazillion hours educating himself here? Ive been reloading for about 40 years and recently decided I wanted to explore casting/swaging bullets. I figure if I read and ask questions here long enough I just might be able to understand the neccessary equipment for doing this. Then on to the lubrisizing side of things! Does it ever end????

[David2011]

Thankfully, it only ends when we do.

[BrutalAB]

if he is being hard headed enough...

Tell him his reloading press is a lee and will only accept lee dies whether it be for cartridge or bullet sizing....


But. Hes probably just confused because they have similar sounding names, and they kinda look similar. Maybe ask him if an impact wrench and an impact driver are the same thing and can use each others bits/sockets. Hopefully that would help make him understand they are different.

[Three44s]

It was not long ago at all that a lot of shooters were exclaiming that reloading was DEAD!

Was it not?

That factory ammo was so cheap and plentiful that it was foolish to take up handloading at all, much less boolit casting?

OR was that just drivel in the gun rags?

Well, how quickly the worm turns. Now, you can’t beat them off reloading tools with a stick over at evil bay! ..... a throwin’ Money at stuff they don’t even know the half of except it has something to do with guns!

Three44s

[robg]

dont you love it when you try to show someone how to do something and they then tell you you're doing it wrong.

[Alferd Packer]

Some reload for themselves,
Some reload for others.
It never changes,
till the others learn to think and do.

You can lead a horse to water...

[Three44s]

dont you love it when you try to show someone how to do something and they then tell you you're doing it wrong.

Oh, I have one better than that!

This “squirrel” goes to any number of contacts and asks for advice. He chooses the one that suits him (always the quickest short cut under the sun). He makes a second and third run to everyone with an opinion and tries to get each one to change their advice to conform to the dumb cluck that he favors!

No matter the subject: mechanics, horses, reloading, guns, it’s always the same, trying to turn a sows ear into a silk purse.

But he argues with the givers of sound advice on and on and generally in the end, he does it in stupid mode!

Another member here and I talked him into taking up handloading and we wish we could un teach him, Ie. erase his memory of it but the monster is out of the bag!

Three44s

[Prairie Cowboy]

Let them do their own work by getting the necessary reference material and reading it for understanding.

Probably this is best. I realized the other day that I knew a lot about reloading and that nobody taught me any of it. The vast majority was learned from books long before the internet or You-Tube, although I have continued to learn new things from these sources. I found that if you were really interested in learning the subject that the information just flowed into you almost effortlessly.

Of course, I guess that there will always be those who won't make the effort.

[John Guedry]

I learned most of what I know the old fashoned way, reading what I could on the subject. All of a sudden somebody ( Al Gore ??) came up with the internet and learning became much easier.