Remington and Marlin Brands

[GregLaROCHE]

So what is going on at Remington currently? Are any guns being produced? Are we going to see Remington and Marlin brands in the future or will they disappear ?

[samari46]

Far as I know Ruger bought the Marlin line when Remington went bankrupt and no time line was given as to when they would be making Marlin/Ruger lever actions. One thing to think about is Ruger hammer forges all their rifle barrels(if I'm wrong please correct me) so don't think they will be making any micro groove barrels. The mandrels aren't cheap and they'd be money ahead using what they have (standard 4 groove barrels) rather than the micro groove ones. Frank

[charlie b]

Have not seen anything on Ruger plans for the Marlin line.

Remington arms mfg was bought by Roundhill Group LLC who claim to be gun enthusiasts with people experienced in the gun business. Last I saw was they had their FFL and were trying to hire folks at the Ilion plant in NY for a Feb 1st reopening. But, it seems they are trying to hire 'at will' in a union state so I think the start date is optimistic.

Have not seen anything on the other plants.

[dverna]

It would not make much sense to buy the brand and not produce something. I expect it will be the best selling and most profitable models the original companies made. Generate some cash and then look at something "new and improved".

[376Steyr]

I believe the Marlin machinery in the Ilion, NY Remington plant has been shipped out to Ruger. As of 11 days ago, the new owners were "in talks with the Union" about hiring, and apparently there has been dead silence since. The announced re-start date was for mid-February, I suspect they are going to blow through that.
My two cents: Having paid $13 million for an old facility in New York state, which probably has $13 million in deferred maintenance on it, the new owners will be putting the screws to the local and state governments; demanding tax relief, tax credits, and maybe even money up front to keep the business from relocating south of the Mason-Dixon line. The new owners have already hinted the old factory building is worthless, and they could build a plant in the parking lot instead of working in the old building. Kimber just bailed out of New York, don't be surprised if Remington follows them.

[GregLaROCHE]

I assume the investors who bought Remington would keep the brand name for the guns they produced, but what about Ruger who has a well recognized already? Will they keep the Marlin name/brand alive or will they just start using the equipment to produce Ruger named guns? It would be a shame to see the Marlin name disappear.

[Burnt Fingers]

I believe the Marlin machinery in the Ilion, NY Remington plant has been shipped out to Ruger. As of 11 days ago, the new owners were "in talks with the Union" about hiring, and apparently there has been dead silence since. The announced re-start date was for mid-February, I suspect they are going to blow through that.
My two cents: Having paid $13 million for an old facility in New York state, which probably has $13 million in deferred maintenance on it, the new owners will be putting the screws to the local and state governments; demanding tax relief, tax credits, and maybe even money up front to keep the business from relocating south of the Mason-Dixon line. The new owners have already hinted the old factory building is worthless, and they could build a plant in the parking lot instead of working in the old building. Kimber just bailed out of New York, don't be surprised if Remington follows them.

I'll bet there's a BILLION dollar EPA cleanup for the Ilion site.

[centershot]

I can't imagine why ANYONE would want to start a business in this wretched state! The so-called Governor has been crying about lost tax revenue for a year now, if he gives them a tax break to start I can only see him putting the screws to them in the end. There's lots of gun-friendly states that would welcome their business, New York isn't one of them.

[FergusonTO35]

I hope the new owners of both realize there is no future in trying to play the price game with older designs that require alot of labor. It requires too much cost cutting and loose tolerances to happen. I just don't see many people wanting to pay close to five bills for an economy grade 336 that looks half finished and has a canted barrel when they can buy a Savage Axis for $300.00 or even less that will spank it perfornance wise. Likewise, the 870 is never going to be price competitive with the Mossberg Maverick and various imported shotguns, the latter of which keep getting better.

[Bigslug]

The Marlin brand should do just fine with Ruger at the helm. The lever gun receivers SHOULD transition over to Ruger's investment casting methods (if that's the plan) and the .22 autoloaders are not so dissimilar from a 10/22 to cause them any trouble. Last press release I saw anticipated guns being sold by year's end.

As for Remington itself. . .the 700 fire-control system kept getting them sued, and I've come to regard the Mossberg 500/590's as better shotguns than even the GOOD 870's, which anything outside of their Police line for about the last 20 years is not. Kind of hard to stage a "Glorious Return" if that's what they're going to return to. They dug themselves into quite the hole. I will certainly not miss what they turned into. More than once I've wished could hand their CEO one of their Hepburns from the 1890's and a 1903 from the 1930's and ask "What the **** happened to you guys?"

[Shawlerbrook]

Agreed ^^^, best news for Marlin was Ruger getting them. Like said above, the new owners of Remington-Ilion are negotiating with the workers. They have received their Federal licenses at the location, so I imagine they will be seeking some tax relief. Our wretched governor is usually great at giving tax relief to industries while crushing local governments that pay the bill( look into Chobani and our local Town and County that are suffering from the governor’s giveaways), but I don’t see him doing anything to help a gun manufacturer. Sad that after over 200 years of gun making in Ilion, they probably will eventually find a friendlier location.

[GregLaROCHE]

Has Ruger confirmed that they will be producing guns with the name Marlin on them and not just Marlin styled guns with the Ruger name on them?

[charlie b]

This is the only thing I have seen from Ruger, from their web site.

Chief Executive Officer Christopher J. Killoy noted the excitement that has permeated the firearms industry in anticipation of the confluence of these two iconic firearms brands, "Since we announced the agreement to purchase Marlin in September, we have heard from countless members of the firearms community - consumers, retailers, distributors, writers, and collectors - who are delighted that legendary Marlin rifles are now part of the Ruger product family. We are excited to start moving these assets to our Ruger facilities and setting up the manufacturing cells that will produce Marlin rifles for years to come. We look forward to re-introducing Marlin rifles in the latter half of 2021."

[376Steyr]

I assume the investors who bought Remington would keep the brand name for the guns they produced, but what about Ruger who has a well recognized already? Will they keep the Marlin name/brand alive or will they just start using the equipment to produce Ruger named guns? It would be a shame to see the Marlin name disappear.
Why not make them under both names? Have the Marlins be Walnut and blued steel, with Rugers being Stainless with plastic stocks.

[Shawlerbrook]

More likely the guns will have the Marlin name logo with some references to Ruger and the Arizona address. Ruger paid for the brand so I am sure they will use it.

[FergusonTO35]

I think Ruger will bring back the Marlin brand, model numbers, and all or most of the core product line. They paid a pretty steep price not to do so. After all, if Ruger merely wanted to start a line of traditional lever actions under their own name they could have done so with no Marlin assets at all, as Henry did. I'm thinking the new Marlins will be made in New Hampshire alongside the revolvers.

[GregLaROCHE]

This is the only thing I have seen from Ruger, from their web site.

Chief Executive Officer Christopher J. Killoy noted the excitement that has permeated the firearms industry in anticipation of the confluence of these two iconic firearms brands, "Since we announced the agreement to purchase Marlin in September, we have heard from countless members of the firearms community - consumers, retailers, distributors, writers, and collectors - who are delighted that legendary Marlin rifles are now part of the Ruger product family. We are excited to start moving these assets to our Ruger facilities and setting up the manufacturing cells that will produce Marlin rifles for years to come. We look forward to re-introducing Marlin rifles in the latter half of 2021."

This seems to answers the question if they will be called Marlins: «We are excited to start moving these assets to our Ruger facilities and setting up the manufacturing cells that will produce Marlin rifles for years to come.»

[farmbif]

I think this is a good thing. it seems ruger is betting that the gun grabbing leftists will not ban lever actions. they put up a bunch of money to expand business in crazy political times.

[Burnt Fingers]

I think Ruger will bring back the Marlin brand, model numbers, and all or most of the core product line. They paid a pretty steep price not to do so. After all, if Ruger merely wanted to start a line of traditional lever actions under their own name they could have done so with no Marlin assets at all, as Henry did. I'm thinking the new Marlins will be made in New Hampshire alongside the revolvers.

I'm pretty sure I read that the Marlin machinery was being moved to Prescott.

[FergusonTO35]

Did not know that!

[snowwolfe]

Remington produced Marlins are going through the roof. I watched SBL 45-70's sell on Gunbrokers in the $2300-2500 range. So much for JM Marlins fetching more money.

[Rick R]

JM Marlins were on the downslide for quality before being purchased by the company that owned Remington. Remington got worn out equipment and none of the guys that were building rifles with it. Apparently they eventually got the formula to where the kept guns exceeded the returns.
I wonder if the accumulated costs were part of Remington going under?

I recently purchased a Ruger #1 in .44 Mag that shoots much better than my 1894 Marlin, probably due to Marlin sticking to .44/40 specs for the new fangled magnum when it came out and Ruger doing it properly. As above mentioned, I’d bet Ruger can use their casting techniques to produce better Marlin actions cheaper. Ruger also isn’t afraid to do limited runs of odd calibers or synthetic or laminate stocks.

I’m betting we see some interesting Marlins eventually.

[GregLaROCHE]

Does anyone know the total amount of Marlins produced by Remington ?

[Bigslug]

Remington produced Marlins are going through the roof. I watched SBL 45-70's sell on Gunbrokers in the $2300-2500 range. So much for JM Marlins fetching more money.

Kinda complicated topic there. . .

1. Right now, you're at the mercy of the used market to find ANY Marlin.

2. JM Marlins often have Micro-Groove barrels which don't get a lot of love from boolit casters.

3. Later JM Marlins and all Remlins have cross-bolt safeties which don't get a lot of love from traditionalists.

4. I can attest to both Remington being able to make a great .45-70 barrel, but their early Marlin efforts had Q.C. problems (that in my Pop's case was sorted out above and beyond satisfactorily by one of their regional repair centers)

So it's really down to what one is after in a Marlin.

[376Steyr]

Remington update: Production start date has slipped to March, first model produced will be the 870 shotgun.
https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2021/2/2/remarms-to-begin-production-march-1

[FergusonTO35]

That's really not bad, getting a plant running again is not a fast undertaking.

[Prairie Cowboy]

Remington produced Marlins are going through the roof. I watched SBL 45-70's sell on Gunbrokers in the $2300-2500 range. So much for JM Marlins fetching more money.

With the supply shortage any Marlin lever gun is going to sell well.
I've monitored LGS's here on-line for several months, and bought a few Marlin lever guns in that time. Now there are none anywhere, whatever the model.

From Marlin to Remlin to Ruglin. Hope that Ruger actually starts making traditional Marlin lever guns again and doesn't just just slap the name on cheap import Model 60 .22 rifle Asian knockoffs.

[376Steyr]

Remington Update: The new owner sends a brush-back pitch past the Union's nose: https://www.timesunion.com/business/article/Remington-s-new-owner-talks-strike-union-says-no-15925668.php

[charlie b]

Yep, looks like the union and mgmt are at odds. I figured it would happen when the first press release said they were offering jobs as an 'at will' employer.

Also looks like there is something in the bankruptcy documents about all this so it may be that Roundhill just wants a way to move the assets out of state and they have to get to a certain point with the union before it happens.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch Update: Management: You know, if the Union messes with us, we'll leave town: https://www.cnyhomepage.com/news/italia-if-employees-strike-remington-plant-closes/
Union: This is still a Union plant, and you need to give us the names of the scabs you already hired: https://romesentinel.com/stories/union-for-remington-arms-workers-denies-strike-rumors,110033
:popcorn:

Edit: Yeah, I know that technically a scab is someone who crossed the picket line, which hasn't been set up, yet. I am sure the Union has only the best interests of the re-hired workers at heart, and just wants to do a health and welfare check on them at their homes, just to make sure they're doing okay.

[charlie b]

I don't understand why they didn't follow Ruger's lead and just moved everything out of town.

Unless the bankruptcy ruling has some 'blackmail' in it to force the new owners to use the existing plant or pay for demolition and clean up.

I would have been tempted to empty out the building and use it for a HQ. Move mfg to another state.

[FergusonTO35]

Here we go again, ugh.

[bowfin]

The union has to be aware that the State of New York is the one of the least friendly states for business and firearms, so will have to bend over backwards in order to not be the straw that breaks the camel's back. That being said, I hope those people get their jobs back. Then again, I wish that those people would get their state back from the politicians as well.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch Update: Hiding at the bottom of the old Remington.com website is a link to the bankruptcy sale documents : https://cases.primeclerk.com/RemingtonOutdoor/Home-DocketInfo?DocAttribute=6065&DocAttrName=SALEDOCUMENTS

If you scroll down to document 821, you can download a pdf of the sales agreement. Around page 650 of 1498 you find the requirement for the new owners to hire 200 of the old union employees.

On page 924, there is an inventory of finished Remington firearms.

For Marlin enthusiasts, if you go to page 1303, you can see an inventory of machinery and spare parts that I assume are now getting unpacked at the Ruger plant.

[popper]

you find the requirement for the new owners to hire 200 of the old union employees.
I don't see a requirement for the 'old' employee to be paid union wages. Same reason few Boeing workers wanted to transfer to east coast production years ago. Non-union pay.

[376Steyr]

you find the requirement for the new owners to hire 200 of the old union employees.
I don't see a requirement for the 'old' employee to be paid union wages. Same reason few Boeing workers wanted to transfer to east coast production years ago. Non-union pay.

I Am Not A Lawyer, but while browsing around in the sale document I found several references to the Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA), but I didn't see a statement in plain English that the CBA would carry over from the old owners to the new.

I'm sure most of the people reading this thread would be more interested in knowing that Remington had 255 spare magazines in stock for the R51 than the latest round of bickering between Remarms and the United Mine Workers, but I think it's more like watching one of those "Traffic Accidents on Icy Roads" videos, where you know the crashes are coming but you just can't look away.

[cas]

I don't know. New Ruger keeps showing they don't know or care about their own legacy and history, why should they care about Marlin's?

[cas]

The union has to be aware that the State of New York is the one of the least friendly states for business and firearms, so will have to bend over backwards in order to not be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

Nope. You would think, but history shows us that's often not the case. The local workers might feel that way, but the removed powers that be probably don't care.

[tazman]

Nope. You would think, but history shows us that's often not the case. The local workers might feel that way, but the removed powers that be probably don't care.

I can draw corollaries to that from things that have happened around here during the last 25 years or so. Union management gets involved during negotiations or a strike and tries to tell the business what they have to do. The business ends up closing the doors. The local workers get hurt and lose their jobs. The union management keeps their jobs and says "Boy we showed them didn't we!"
Total disconnect with reality.

Unions used to have a place in industry. Not so much now.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion DeathWatch Update: https://www.wktv.com/content/news/Remington-Arms-eligible-for-tax-breaks-as-new-company-573801021.html

RemArms gets a 50% break on their property taxes from the State of New York because they are a "new" company, but RemArms now says they need "clarification" about what their obligations to the union are under the sale agreement, and they can't open the plant with the old union agreement in place.

Union response: Open the plant and keep it union! https://www.publicnow.com/view/7E18FCAFA086F50016963E83E2DA4BC6C063395D

[Idaho45guy]

Having worked for both a union and Ruger firearms, I can say with confidence that the union will do everything in its power to destroy the company and move jobs to non-union states while blathering about worker's rights and voting for Democrats, and Ruger will oblige them by moving resources and jobs to either Arizona or North Carolina and not worry one bit about disaffected workers in NY.

I have a Marlin 1894 made in 2018 that I have been planning on selling since it is a giant *** compared to my JM 1894. It will be quite entertaining if it actually gains value due to being one of the last Marlin-made rifles. I was going to take it to the local gun shop and sell it on consignment for $500 and hope to get rid of it. Perhaps I should hold onto it a couple of more years and see if the value increases.

[farmbif]

that $500 price tag you thinking of putting on a remlin 1894 might just be quite low there are a surprising amount of people who have high praise for the Remington made marlins and are willing to pay for them. I find it shocking but true as a big spaghetti western era marlin fan.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion DeathWatch Update: https://www.wktv.com/content/news/Managing-partner-at-Remington-Arms-Monday-planning-to-resume-production-573847571.html

Still hoping for a 1 March start. Moving machinery up from Huntsville. 870s first, then Model 700s. At least a year before getting to full production. Still talking to the Union, with just a few little things to work out.
"We want to stay here, because that's where the workforce is." I wonder, the plant has been shut down for four months. How many of the old employees who were highly skilled are still available?

[1hole]

Having worked for both a union and Ruger firearms, I can say with confidence that the union will do everything in its power to destroy the company and move jobs to non-union states while blathering about worker's rights and voting for Democrats, ....

Right. Up to about the 1920s, big industrial managers tended to view employees as disposable parts on some sort of assembly line. Labor unions because necessary for desperate employees to limit the abuses of many big companies.

Politicians quickly realized the potential of money and "free" labor for their election programs from unions. The management of big unions made a tacit deal with the Democrats and laws were passed to benefit UNION labor (but not every worker) and the downhill slide to corruption between politicians and big unions began. But, much good came from it ... at first.

But, when a rational balance between the forces of labor and capital was made (about 1947) the big unions continued to extort ever increased benefits simply because they could. Thus, the big unions have long been a cancer on the backs of the paying public. Someone has to pay for everything the unions win and the public pays ever increasing prices for everything they need.

So unions demanded more and more and the whole U.S. economic structure ratcheted up in the continous inflation cycle we still live with.

Big Unions have less attraction here than they have in other places; we know that big nothing is the "working man's friend", including big unions. People in the south are less likely to surrender control of their lives to any big power group.

We prefer to have jobs with reasonable compensation instead of being unemployed at twice as much. Jobs make it easier for us to feed our families than no jobs.

The South's industrial economy is pretty strong today. Well, except where Dem politicians do the most to help the otherwise helpless and hopeless professional welfare big city ghetto people get larger welfare checks.


.... and Ruger will oblige them by moving resources and jobs to either Arizona or North Carolina and not worry one bit about disaffected workers in NY.

Right again.

Unlike so many of our well fed "northern" friends, we hordes of political independent "deplorables" in NC, SC, TN, TX, GA, AL, LA, FL happily welcome those companies considering coming here to provide good non-union jobs for our unemployed and underemployed people.

Fact is, jobs/no jobs, unions/no unions, BIG daddy Democrats/non-Democrats, we all have to make life choices for what seems best to us and then live with the results of our choices, hopefully without whining to everyone else about how unfair life is. :) ;)!

* The Stars and Bars still fly. Most people don't even know what the Stars and Bars look like and the more educated they are the less likely they are to know. That's not the people's fault, it's just another ignorant failing of "modern liberal" education.

God help us, the U.S.A. is in deep poo again. It was the overreaching of power hungry Northern politicians - at the calling of big money guys - that led to the fracus of 1861-65 and they are doing it again. Resist ... and hang onto your wallets and firearms. At the rate and direction the Dems are going now we may be needing them both sooner rather than later.

[cas]

I wonder, the plant has been shut down for four months. How many of the old employees who were highly skilled are still available?

Probably most of them, there's not exactly an abundance of jobs in the area, especially for their skill set.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion DeathWatch Update: https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/reopening-of-remington-gun-factory-in-upstate-new-york-delayed/ar-BB1ef9Xk

March 1st start up didn't happen. Union is trying to keep the old contract in place, and oddly enough RemArms doesn't seem to be inclined to do so.

[FergusonTO35]

If, Remington goes with keeping the union workforce and union contract in Ilion, the only way I see it being possible is with a specific product line and intended market. Drop the economy gun lines (783, 597, 700 ADL, Express models, etc.) as they are simply not feasible for such an expensive place to manufacture them. Produce only deluxe and higher end models of respected models that people are willing to spend a higher price tag on, such as the 700 BDL and CDL, 870 Wingmaster, and so on. Offer plenty of calibers and options to go along with them. Quality and attention to detail should be the order of the day rather than getting product out the door. There are still many people who will pay a handsome price for a gun that is done right, go after this market. Let other firms chase pennies in the low cost gun market. Just look at Kimber, this is exactly what they are doing.

[country gent]

I believe ruger bought the marlin rights so the new start up may be longer if equipment has too be moved and or training done.

On remingtons line the new owners need to start over build a quality firearm with good fit and finish. One that works first time every time and is accurate. Rebuild the name and reputation. I also think a reintroduction of the popular old rifles. 1 a year like the old classic line only the actual rifles Hepburns, Rolling blocks, the model 8, would also go a long ways. Think about 721s 722s and the ones mentioned available from manufacturer in modern materials available again. This to include the scaled down boys rifles in 22 LR.

I dont remember of hand who got remingtons rights but they have a long road to hoe getting the name and reputation back up,

[charlie b]

They have a long road just to work out something with the union.

While I'd hate for all those folks to lose their jobs I think the union bosses in that area are not helping their members.

[MUSTANG]

If, Remington goes with keeping the union workforce and union contract in Ilion, the only way I see it being possible is with a specific product line and intended market. Drop the economy gun lines (783, 597, 700 ADL, Express models, etc.) as they are simply not feasible for such an expensive place to manufacture them. Produce only deluxe and higher end models of respected models that people are willing to spend a higher price tag on, such as the 700 BDL and CDL, 870 Wingmaster, and so on. Offer plenty of calibers and options to go along with them. Quality and attention to detail should be the order of the day rather than getting product out the door. There are still many people who will pay a handsome price for a gun that is done right, go after this market. Let other firms chase pennies in the low cost gun market. Just look at Kimber, this is exactly what they are doing.


Close the doors. Tell the Union thank you very much. Move all machinery to one of the States from the old Confederacy or the Plains/Western States (Not Kali/Oregon/Washington) - offer interviews to all old workers and small relocation package for those selected to move to new location; and "Hire Local" at new site. Quality and profitability will both dramatically rise.

[charlie b]

Would be fine except for the purchase contract from the bankruptcy court.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion DeathWatch Update: https://wibx950.com/when-will-remington-employees-go-back-to-work/

The re-hired workers are told the opening is delayed, no new start date provided yet.

Union is making some progress on getting some money out of the old company for stuff owed at time of plant closure.

Latest twist: "Bankruptcy documents also show that Roundhill is still in a dispute with the old Remington company over assets, machinery and licensing that was part of the bankruptcy sale, where Remington's holdings were split up between six companies. Roundhill purchased the Remington firearms business, excluding the Marlin brand, for $13 million."

[NWPilgrim]

Remington should move to a gun friendly state that welcomes them and has a good base of skilled labor. TX, AZ, ID, FL, TN, MO, etc. Lots of states better than NY to start up manufacturing.

[ebb]

Why do people keep speculating on what Ruger is going to do with Marlin when you can go the the Ruger website and read it from Ruger's mouth?

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion DeathWatch Update: https://www.wktv.com/content/news/New-Remington-owners-get-OK-to-move-equipment-to-facility-574075601.html

Having apparently blown past the 1 March reopening date, RemArms gets permission to move their purchased machinery out of the Alabama plant and up to New York. No word on how the negotiation with the Union is going.

[FergusonTO35]

Well, that would indicate that they still intend to make a go of it in Ilion. I have to say, didn't the state of Alabama give them all kinds of help to open the Huntsville plant? I'd say they are not feeling to good about that deal right now!

[376Steyr]

Well, that would indicate that they still intend to make a go of it in Ilion. I have to say, didn't the state of Alabama give them all kinds of help to open the Huntsville plant? I'd say they are not feeling to good about that deal right now!

If you want to see the nuts and bolts of how Alabama got sucked into the Remington mess, here is a pretty good write up: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/05/01/magazine/remington-guns-jobs-huntsville.html

Beware, it's the NY Times, so there is plenty of "World ends, Women and minorities effected worst" shoehorned in there.

Short story: Alabama offered Remington all sorts of incentives to fill up an empty industrial park, meanwhile Cerberus (boo! hiss!) as the owners of Remington, took out a quarter of a billion dollars in loans, put Remington's name on the paperwork, then pocketed the cash and ran.

Anybody want a good deal on a slightly used industrial park? Anyone?

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion DeathWatch Update: https://www.wktv.com/content/news/Remington-workers-union-new-owners-sign-letter-of-agreement-574123071.html

RemArms and the union come to an agreement. 45 workers are to start next week, with the rest of the 200 required by the terms of the sale to follow.

[GregLaROCHE]

Good to see something concrete is starting to happen. I wish all involved, the best of luck.

[Texas by God]

I hope that they bring back the 20 Gauge Express Youth right off the bat. Such a handy shotgun.

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[TNsailorman]

Stay in New York and Remington is doomed to fall once more. They are going to have to overcome a lot of bad publicity over the substandard rifles they produced to try to stay alive. In the modern production world of plastic rifles and the emphasis on cost, they will be fighting un uphill battle trying to bring the Model 700 back to the old level of excellence at a cost that will allow it to sell well. Cerebus(spelling) did a real theft job on Remington and then ran as was stated. There was an excellent article written on that subject but as of right now I cannot recall who wrote it or how to find it again. That is one thing that congree and the senate needs to take a serious look at and bring some legislation about to stop the large conglomerates from raiding small companies. It is nothing less than legal (right now) corporate theft. I have always been a Remington man but right now they are going to have to prove to me that the company is serious about re-creating a good product again and that starts with moving the whole operation to a gun friendly state or they loose me. james

[FergusonTO35]

I think there is enough of a demand for iconic guns done right that they could keep the Ilion factory going, but not at the level it once was.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion DeathWatch Update: https://wibx950.com/5-big-things-we-now-know-about-remington-re-opening-in-ilion/

The good news: Some steel was delivered to the plant, and "new equipment needed to relaunch the production line has been and is in the process of being ordered."

The bad news: RemArms and the Union have 60 days to reach a finalized labor agreement.

[charlie b]

I just hope they start producing guns before the big shortage ends. This is a boom time for gun mfgs, especially for something like the 870.

[Idaho45guy]

I just listed my Remlin 1894 on Gunbroker with a $600 reserve. It's the only one available as far as I can tell. If it hits reserve, I will be as happy as a clam. Once Ruger starts production, the Remlin jokes will plummet in value.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch: https://www.fieldandstream.com/guns/remington-reveals-plans-for-new-guns/

Production hasn't started yet. Product is supposed to be on the shelf "well ahead of hunting season." Model 870 first, then the 700, then the 1100.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch: https://www.oleantimesherald.com/news/remington-arms-reopens-upstate-ny-factory/article_313f4087-dd86-50ce-8437-981a2d47b591.html

230 workers now back at the plant, including 120 hourly Union employees. Lets see how long it takes to have the first new 870 come off the line.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch
It's been a month, and there has been no triumphant unveiling of the first new gun to roll off the restarted assembly line yet. The Remington website doesn't have any news either. I estimate RemArms has racked up roughly $1 million in payroll costs alone in the past month.

[John Wayne]

Right. Up to about the 1920s, big industrial managers tended to view employees as disposable parts on some sort of assembly line. Labor unions because necessary for desperate employees to limit the abuses of many big companies.

Politicians quickly realized the potential of money and "free" labor for their election programs from unions. The management of big unions made a tacit deal with the Democrats and laws were passed to benefit UNION labor (but not every worker) and the downhill slide to corruption between politicians and big unions began. But, much good came from it ... at first.

But, when a rational balance between the forces of labor and capital was made (about 1947) the big unions continued to extort ever increased benefits simply because they could. Thus, the big unions have long been a cancer on the backs of the paying public. Someone has to pay for everything the unions win and the public pays ever increasing prices for everything they need.

So unions demanded more and more and the whole U.S. economic structure ratcheted up in the continous inflation cycle we still live with.

Big Unions have less attraction here than they have in other places; we know that big nothing is the "working man's friend", including big unions. People in the south are less likely to surrender control of their lives to any big power group.

We prefer to have jobs with reasonable compensation instead of being unemployed at twice as much. Jobs make it easier for us to feed our families than no jobs.

The South's industrial economy is pretty strong today. Well, except where Dem politicians do the most to help the otherwise helpless and hopeless professional welfare big city ghetto people get larger welfare checks.



Right again.

Unlike so many of our well fed "northern" friends, we hordes of political independent "deplorables" in NC, SC, TN, TX, GA, AL, LA, FL happily welcome those companies considering coming here to provide good non-union jobs for our unemployed and underemployed people.

Fact is, jobs/no jobs, unions/no unions, BIG daddy Democrats/non-Democrats, we all have to make life choices for what seems best to us and then live with the results of our choices, hopefully without whining to everyone else about how unfair life is. :) ;)!

* The Stars and Bars still fly. Most people don't even know what the Stars and Bars look like and the more educated they are the less likely they are to know. That's not the people's fault, it's just another ignorant failing of "modern liberal" education.

God help us, the U.S.A. is in deep poo again. It was the overreaching of power hungry Northern politicians - at the calling of big money guys - that led to the fracus of 1861-65 and they are doing it again. Resist ... and hang onto your wallets and firearms. At the rate and direction the Dems are going now we may be needing them both sooner rather than later.

Well said 1 HOLE. I'm hopeful Ruger can pull it off!

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch: https://www.wktv.com/content/news/3-accused-of-stealing-65000-from-Remington-Arms-through-fake-business-scheme-574645701.html
Well, now we know why Remington went bankrupt. Three guys are accused of stealing $65,000 from the old company in 2019, and have been arrested. Meanwhile, the fat cats of Cerberus, who "borrowed" a quarter of billion dollars from Remington, are sitting on their yachts, drinking champagne and smoking big cigars.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch: https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2021/6/26/first-look-blue-line-pump-shotgun
While RemArms has been busy not putting product on the loading dock, a Chinese clone of the 870 is now hitting the market, retailing in the $250 range. That's right, TWO hundred and fifty dollars. Hope the RemArms guys have been working on 870s with nice walnut and blued steel, because the bargain basement market has just been yanked away from them.

Brownells has them in stock for $250. https://www.brownells.com/firearms/shotguns/pump/blue-line-12-gauge-w-25-gift-card-prod139411.aspx

[FergusonTO35]

$250.00 is high for a basic imported pump shotgun, and that is a very crowded market segment. I have no doubts Remington will be able to sell 870's and people will pay higher prices for them. As soon as we get a Mossy or Winchester pumpgun on the rack at my side job shop it goes out the door, even if it is just a Maverick or Turkish Winchester Speed Pump.

[376Steyr]

$250.00 is high for a basic imported pump shotgun, and that is a very crowded market segment. I have no doubts Remington will be able to sell 870's and people will pay higher prices for them. As soon as we get a Mossy or Winchester pumpgun on the rack at my side job shop it goes out the door, even if it is just a Maverick or Turkish Winchester Speed Pump.
Yep, it is a very crowded market segment, and it just got worse. Some folks will pay more for the Remington name and its (hopefully) better quality, and some won't.
The real question is, can RemArms get some cash flowing, and will it be enough? Will the margin on whatever product finally gets out the door be enough to cover the costs of running the Ilion plant? I don't know, but I'm becoming more pessimistic every day.

[quail4jake]

What a joke! No way will Remington be successful in New York. I just hope someone photographs the facility, museum and all the happy employees before the permanent closure. I think they moved to Arkansas? Anyway, I visited the museum 20 years ago and the people were just great... I got the chance to hold the only gr VII 1889, 10 bore I think. I hope they get the museum out intact and some of the employees have the opportunity to move with the company to a better place. I would really like to see some of the excellent firearms of Remington and Marlin made again, here in the US. We all know that can't happen in N.Y. Reality check... I would estimate retail price of true continued production arms to start at $5000....agggghhh, how can it be that much? Well I'm not talking about a stamped out 870. Remington 1900 SXS 12, 20, 28, .410, just the barrels would have to be 3-5000, end price in mid grade 8-10,000. Marlin 1895, .45 gov't true to original style and quality, 4-8000. Just estimates but look at the current values of really fine firearms in that range. Big plus now...CNC, AI aided design and tolerance, advanced metallurgy, very well refined woodworking etc. All of this can add up to way fewer jobs but highly skilled positions paying great bonuses in "right to work" states as opposed to higher numbers of unskilled labor positions mandated by a labor union with the end of the road at a final strike and complete closure (Hostess Bakeries). I wish the best for all and I will be in line with my checkbook for that Remington 1885 20 bore gr VI![smilie=p:

[Burnt Fingers]

What a joke! No way will Remington be successful in New York. I just hope someone photographs the facility, museum and all the happy employees before the permanent closure. I think they moved to Arkansas? Anyway, I visited the museum 20 years ago and the people were just great... I got the chance to hold the only gr VII 1889, 10 bore I think. I hope they get the museum out intact and some of the employees have the opportunity to move with the company to a better place. I would really like to see some of the excellent firearms of Remington and Marlin made again, here in the US. We all know that can't happen in N.Y. Reality check... I would estimate retail price of true continued production arms to start at $5000....agggghhh, how can it be that much? Well I'm not talking about a stamped out 870. Remington 1900 SXS 12, 20, 28, .410, just the barrels would have to be 3-5000, end price in mid grade 8-10,000. Marlin 1895, .45 gov't true to original style and quality, 4-8000. Just estimates but look at the current values of really fine firearms in that range. Big plus now...CNC, AI aided design and tolerance, advanced metallurgy, very well refined woodworking etc. All of this can add up to way fewer jobs but highly skilled positions paying great bonuses in "right to work" states as opposed to higher numbers of unskilled labor positions mandated by a labor union with the end of the road at a final strike and complete closure (Hostess Bakeries). I wish the best for all and I will be in line with my checkbook for that Remington 1885 20 bore gr VI![smilie=p:

Marlin firearms won't be made in New York.

Ruger now owns the Marlin brand and has said we should see the first Marlin products late this year.

[centershot]

Marlin firearms won't be made in New York.

Ruger now owns the Marlin brand and has said we should see the first Marlin products late this year.

Thank Goodness for that! A Ruger-made Marlin will likely cost more than the Remlins, or the JM Marlins, but they'll be made right! More importantly, they'll be made HERE in the USA!

These guys that are setting up the "new" Remington in Ilion are out of their minds. Anti-gun government, a union that won't take "No" for an answer, how long can they really expect to stay in NY and survive?

[charlie b]

It's not really a choice. It was a condition set in the court documents for the bankruptcy and purchasers. The document was linked somewhere in here. I was surprised someone actually bought the Remington portion of the company given the court demands.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch: https://www.wktv.com/content/news/Remington-responds-to-new-NY-law-opening-gun-makers-to-more-liability-574793081.html

NY has a new state law that lets firearms makers be sued.

"NEWSChannel 2 asked RemArms CEO Ken D’Arcy if the company would consider leaving New York because of the new law.

“Nothing is set in stone; this poorly thought-out legislation is one more thing showing New York State is not business friendly and in particular has no understanding of the firearms industry. The idea this legislation will curtail crime is absurd,” he said in a statement."

Meanwhile, it's now been two months since RemArms supposedly restarted production, and apparently nothing has been shipped yet. I estimate RemArms has spent two million dollars on payroll alone so far, with nothing to show for it. They haven't even bothered to update their website.

[Shawlerbrook]

As someone that grew up in the shadows of the Ilion plant, knew many employees and drooled over their catalog every year this saddens me immensely. I am thinking that the new owners never had any intention of producing guns at the historic plant but had to make the effort in order to acquire the historic brand name.

[robertbank]

Looking forward to buying a 1894 38/357 Marlin from Ruger.

Last of a long bucket list.

Take Care

Bob

[charlie b]

As someone that grew up in the shadows of the Ilion plant, knew many employees and drooled over their catalog every year this saddens me immensely. I am thinking that the new owners never had any intention of producing guns at the historic plant but had to make the effort in order to acquire the historic brand name.

Yep, it is sad. But, it was sad that the original company could not make it work. Or the follow on owners. It was ripe for an employee ownership push. Too bad the union didn't go that route.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch: https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/07/27/remarms-guns-warranty/

Okay, this is just getting weird. From the article: "According to RemArms, they should be viewed as a new company – like a true start-up – with the similar buzz of excitement, ambition, and ongoing activities that you would imagine coming from something entirely new." I wonder if they will start taking deposits to get on their waiting list?

Still no date given for when that first new 870 will be carried out to the loading dock.

[GregLaROCHE]

Everyone is still waiting to see what happens.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zg07o4BprE&t=255s and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB2wHFGPSqM


Well, it looks like RemArms shoved some product out the door, without telling anybody about it. Watch the videos, and you'll see why.

[GregLaROCHE]

That but stock to receiver fit really make me wonder about quality control.

[Tar Heel]

I can draw corollaries to that from things that have happened around here during the last 25 years or so. Union management gets involved during negotiations or a strike and tries to tell the business what they have to do. The business ends up closing the doors. The local workers get hurt and lose their jobs. The union management keeps their jobs and says "Boy we showed them didn't we!"
Total disconnect with reality.

Unions used to have a place in industry. Not so much now.

Bingo. Union threats coupled with Covid and now the new Delta Variant, and soon the even newer Whatever Variant, are going to be the death of many a company. Everyone is bailing from NY & CA for obvious reasons.

Not to worry however - the Government will take care of you.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fdD_m5_pnw

RemArms tries to do some damage control, saying the low quality specimens caught on video were cobbled together out of parts left behind by the old company, and the guns they will actually make will be much better. This of course raises the questions of how hard up for cash they are, to shove such products out the door; and why new parts and guns aren't coming off the line yet.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch: https://www.outdoorlife.com/guns/remington-ammunition-comeback/

It's all unicorns and rainbows for Remington Ammunition, while RemArms can't be bothered to answer Outdoor Life's question as to when they will actually start shipping product.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch: https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/new-remington-870s-shipping-to-dealers/

Three months after restarting production, RemArms quietly admits they are shipping 870s. I was expecting a flourish of trumpets and a ruffle of drums. And their website still hasn't been updated. A fellow would almost think they are marking time until their purchase-mandated requirement to keep the plant open, with 200 of the old employees, is up and they can flee to a red state.

I wonder if the old machinery in the plant is getting retro-fitted with quick-release floor mounts, for a fast getaway?[smilie=1:

[sniper]

Reading the thread with interest.
It seems that unions have never really been about serving the needs of their members, except maybe in the first 20 years or so of their existence.

As a youngster, I had some peripheral experiences with unions that have left me with a lifetime "bad taste in my mouth."
My Dad was a union painter. He'd tell of receiving his pay for the week, then going to stand in line with the other members of his crew to pay the Foreman "A little something."
One day, he came home, and told us the Foreman had gotten angry at something and fired the entire painting crew. The union did nothing for him.

Another time, I was maybe 8 or 10, and my Dad had dropped me off at the neighborhood Barber shop for a haircut. It was near closing time for the shop, and the Barber that was cutting my hair stopped kind of in the middle, and told the owner if the shop "It's 5 O'clock, and this is a Union Shop, and I'm going to quit!" The owner finally talked him into completing my haircut...maybe 10 minutes after 5 P.M.

So, I have never been a fan of Unions, seeing many likenesses to Government, where the leadership really don't care about much except keeping their jobs, getting re elected and keeping their sponsors happy.

" When the wicked rule, the people mourn."

[FergusonTO35]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch: https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/new-remington-870s-shipping-to-dealers/

Three months after restarting production, RemArms quietly admits they are shipping 870s. I was expecting a flourish of trumpets and a ruffle of drums. And their website still hasn't been updated. A fellow would almost think they are marking time until their purchase-mandated requirement to keep the plant open, with 200 of the old employees, is up and they can flee to a red state.

I wonder if the old machinery in the plant is getting retro-fitted with quick-release floor mounts, for a fast getaway?[smilie=1:

If the new 870's are of good quality, as in at least competitive with the Turkish guns for about the same price, I think they will be fine. The great race to the bottom cutting prices and quality to put guns on the shelf of every cheap mart is what killed the original Remington, Marlin, and Winchester. Stay with a small and proven product line and make each one a gun that you'd be proud to own. I think alot of people would be happy to buy them, myself included.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch: https://www.outdoorlife.com/guns/remarms-870-express-shotgun-review/

Outdoor Life reviews the new 870 Express, and manages to contain their enthusiasm. RemArms still hasn't even bothered to update their website, so I suspect full-page ads in Outdoor Life aren't happening either.

[FergusonTO35]

We sold a new 870 at the shop last night, I thought it looked as good as any other 870 Express I have seen including my own that was made by the pre-Freedom Group company.

[Burnt Fingers]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch: https://www.outdoorlife.com/guns/remarms-870-express-shotgun-review/

Outdoor Life reviews the new 870 Express, and manages to contain their enthusiasm. RemArms still hasn't even bothered to update their website, so I suspect full-page ads in Outdoor Life aren't happening either.

That's actually a pretty damning review as those things go. In my experience, if they have nothing good to say it means the product is total crap.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdaRtVlwvJE&t=96s

The low-key roll out continues. RemArms CEO with a montage of their promised products, including the M700 and 1911. A quick check of Davidson's and Buds Gun Shop shows the V3 semi-auto shotgun seems to be shipping now too.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch: https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/index.htm?avs%7cManufacturer_1=REMINGTON&avs%7cSpecial-Filters_1=In%2bStock&trk_msg=7KE2HKOLLU4K1CH1R60O6Q84R8&trk_contact=QIN6IKD1H3PUGDNGKQ4KE17P6O&trk_sid=CG7NHKGERIISPR2N5VC1NTAVDO&trk_link=RAG40MKBE11KF0H8N9QALNB5DC&utm_source=listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Shop+Now&utm_campaign=2021_09_15_Remington&utm_content=Rifle

Brownells has M700 receivers in stock, with bolts and triggers, but without magazine parts or bottom metal. I'm assuming these are new production.

On a personal note, a few years ago I put together a dandy 6.5-06 hunting rifle when I got a "deal" on a long action with bolt. Even with scrimping a little, it got discouragingly expensive to acquire all the parts and pieces I needed for completion. I would have been money ahead if I had just bought a used 700, tossed the old barrel, and burned the factory stock.

[farmbif]

I hate to say it but as far as outdoor life and most all or I guess all the gun magazines have had editorial content compromised over the years because they are so dependent on advertising dollars. it used to be magazines made a substantial amount from paid subscriptions but I feel over the years things have changed and articles are written to promote products and companies and boost advertising revenue. I may be all wrong but that's they just the way I see it.

[Ithaca Gunner]

I hate to say it but as far as outdoor life and most all or I guess all the gun magazines have had editorial content compromised over the years because they are so dependent on advertising dollars. it used to be magazines made a substantial amount from paid subscriptions but I feel over the years things have changed and articles are written to promote products and companies and boost advertising revenue. I may be all wrong but that's they just the way I see it.

You're seeing it clearly.

[Jack Stanley]

Like 376Steyr , I wonder if they are biding their time for the right moment to find more fertile ground . Marlin lost my future business in the nineties and the Remington 700 I got ten years later was only marginally better .

Perhaps many looking for the least cost has brought us here or the greed of corporate management , I can't answer that . All I want is quality products that last longer than a lifetime .

Jack

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifWJAjT10HI


Another video from the RemArms CEO. No news other than he claims the Ilion plant is "fully operational" (like a Deathstar? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7-tskP0OzI) and stuff is being shipped. No particulars on models, features, or calibers that will be offered.

RemArms is having professionals produce these Youtube videos with the CEO. I wonder why they haven't spent some money on updating their website?

[Idaho45guy]

I hate to say it but as far as outdoor life and most all or I guess all the gun magazines have had editorial content compromised over the years because they are so dependent on advertising dollars. it used to be magazines made a substantial amount from paid subscriptions but I feel over the years things have changed and articles are written to promote products and companies and boost advertising revenue. I may be all wrong but that's they just the way I see it.

Yep. There is a clear correlation in American Riflemen between which gun manufacturer has the biggest and most expensive ads, and who gets a glowing review of their firearm in the next issue.

I can't remember what pistol it was, but it was made by a regular big advertiser. I think it was Kimber. Anyway, in the article, the writer stated it was the most accurate carry gun he's ever seen and when I looked at the accuracy results, they were indeed impressive with groups from just over an inch to an inch and a half. THen I realized instead of the normal 25 yard test, they moved in to 10 yards. What a joke! I don't own any pistols that can't do around an inch at ten yards with a rest.

That and the lavish spending and lifestyles of the NRA folks and I pretty much lost most respect for them.

[Ithaca Gunner]

As for Remington, if they're going to build sporting arms with plastic stocks, rifles without iron sights, and follow the crowd they can sink as far as I'm concerned. I won't miss them at all.

Ruger could do good things with the Marlin brand, and I hope they do. I'm not hopeful about it though. Seems Ruger has a history of bringing out some fantastic guns, true classics, like the No.1, M-77, Red Label, Security Six series, and others, they build a following, the guns become classics, then they drop them for something of much lesser quality, (the ''American'' series rifles come to mind here and the shotguns have simply gone away). Too expensive to continue production? Okay, make a cheap chinchy gun for the once a year hunters, but keep the classics in at least limited production, please. I kinda see the same future for the Marlin brand under Ruger. I'm holding on to a sliver of hope for now, buy given Ruger's history, I have my doubts it will last long.

[robertbank]

Ithaca Ginnarwhy do you not like polymer stocks? They don't warp or swell in wet damp environments and can be made to very exacting tolerances. The bonus it they usually sell for less than the wooden variation in the same model.

Take Care

Bob

[Ithaca Gunner]

It's the cheap plastic look and feel. I miss genuine walnut and polished blue steel, with iron sights. The plastics and stainless have their places, I have a Remington 700 SA with a Hart SS #7 barrel in a aluminum skeleton stock with a solid kevlar outer and that's fine. I don't mind some of the laminated stocks if kept to a more traditional shape, but these are higher end products. The stuff most gun companies put out are hollow and every twig or briar they come in contact with amplifies the sound X20, and they just look horrible. They're a cost cutting measure to sell cheap guns. The Summit Technologies aluminum and kevlar stock I put on my 700 cost more than a nice walnut stock, but it's silent, stable, and done right, not a cheap throw on by any means.

Maybe I should say I hate cheap plastic stocks that come on most factory rifles. Or at least give me a choice of a walnut stock and iron sights, I'll pay the difference.

[Mr_Sheesh]

I've had a vintage 700's wood stock war on me to where the stock was pressing hard on the barrel, so that tack driver suddenly was stringing groups in a line, left and right. I like the look of good wood, sure, but I require that the stock help the rifle shoot MORE accurately, not cause it to become a 1D shotgun! Might put a Boyd's stock on it, maybe something else. Needs fixed better than just hogging out the wood till it quits pressing on the side of the barrel!

[John Boy]

IMO, the only way to be pleased with Remington firearms is buy the old quality used ones. Have a 3 inch 1100 … wouldn’t trade or sell

[Ithaca Gunner]

IMO, the only way to be pleased with Remington firearms is buy the old quality used ones. Have a 3 inch 1100 … wouldn’t trade or sell

You got that right, those 721's, 725's, 30s, 121s, 37's, 500 series of .22's, and a lot of shotguns. Beautiful machining and bluing, great stocks, designed to last several life times and built for it too. Those days are gone I suppose, there's a few of us that appreciate them though and hold them in the same regard as Winchester's old Model 70.

[FergusonTO35]

We got a new 700 ADL in at the shop and I'm impressed with it, looks to be very well made. I really hope Remington can get things turned around, they certainly have the ability to make good guns again.

[Ithaca Gunner]

Gun Talk radio has a you tube video up, https://youtu.be/X_AHFat3yqE where they talk with Chris Killoy of Ruger. Mr. Killoy states Ruger will begin shipping Marlin lever guns about the middle of December this year. He says the Model 1895 in .45Gov't and .444 Marlin will be the first to ship, followed by the 336, then the 1894 in .357 and .44 Magnum. The 336 and 1894 will probably ship next year.

Barrels will be Ruger cold hammer forged, no Micro groove or Ballard rifling according to Killoy. He did say the barrels would be cast boolit friendly and they're having good accuracy with them.

[376Steyr]

My local Bimart (Pacific Northwest department store chain) had a new 870 Express in stock, so I bought it, as I didn't have a 12 gauge 870 in the stockpile. I paid $370 before tax. Yes, I know that $370 would have bought an engraved 870 with magnificent wood in 1972, but now we have $4 a gallon gasoline and $5 a pound hamburger. Let's Go Brandon! I didn't like the 1970s the first time I lived through them, but I digress.

It came with a "hardwood" stock, which is straight-grained under the satin stain. No glossy "bowling pin" finish (a la 1972) on this one. Wood to metal fit at the receiver is adequate, barely proud in some spots, barely scant in others. The stock has some nicely done machine-cut checkering panels on it, which beats the heck out of the stamped "checkering" we used to get. Trigger guard is plastic, excuse me, highly engineered polymer. Barrel is 28 inches, vent ribbed, with a single brass bead, and came with only one Modified Rem-Choke tube. Oddly enough, the barrel is stamped "****12GA. 2 3/4" AND 3"*** 3 1/2" ONLY WITH SUPER MAG RECEIVER" so maybe there is a 3 1/2" chamber lurking in there. Metal finish is an even bead-blasted black matte, quite utilitarian, which I won't dignify by calling it bluing.

First impressions: This puppy is heavy! It weighs in at 8 lbs even on my kitchen scale. Quality is quite acceptable, perhaps even better than the Express models that were churned out by late-stage Remington. If something should break on it (which would be like breaking a crowbar) I can get parts without having them shipped in from Turkey or (shudder) China. I don't know if these new 870s will keep RemArms afloat, but at least they won't sink it.

[FergusonTO35]

The few new Remingtons that have come through our shop appear to be no worse than their equivalents from the earlier incarnations of the company. The 700 ADL in particular impressed me, everything about it is clearly a step up from the other plastic bolt actions on the shelf such as Savage Axis, TC Compass, Mossy MVP, and so on. The stock feels way more solid and doesn't have a yawning gutter for a barrel channel, metal finish seems thick and evenly applied, metal edges are neatly rounded off. I really hope Remmy can be successful.

[376Steyr]

Marlin News: https://www.guns.com/news/2021/10/22/ruger-shows-off-its-1st-marlin-rifle

First new Ruglin/Marler comes off the line, a big loop 1895 in stainless.

[444ttd]

Maybe I should say I hate cheap plastic stocks that come on most factory rifles. Or at least give me a choice of a walnut stock and iron sights, I'll pay the difference.


same here!!!!!!

i have only two remmies, a rem early m7 in 7-08 and a rem m14 in 30 remington. i used to be remmy guy, i had m700 in a,b and cdl and mountain rifles in the '06, 243, 270 and others and a m760 in 308(the most unluckiest rifle EVER!!!!!). i liked the bdl but unfortunately they got sold in my divorce.



i like the old military sporters, esp. the 91 thru 98 mausers and any 1898 springfield armory.

[FergusonTO35]

Way to go Ruger! Keep 'em coming.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch: https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/remington-firearms-gunmaker-moving-hq-georgia

RemArms announces it is going to spend $100 million for a new headquarters and "research facility" employing 856 people over the next five years in LaGrange, Georgia. No word on what will happen to the 200 Union employees at the current New York plant.

[Randy Bohannon]

Every Remington I have bought since they started putting garbage plastic stocks on the 700’s have the stocks junked and a good synthetic is purchased. Pillar and glass bedded, Timney trigger ,about $600.00 in parts gets a rifle that would be hard to shoot better for three times as much.

[tazman]

Every Remington I have bought since they started putting garbage plastic stocks on the 700’s have the stocks junked and a good synthetic is purchased. Pillar and glass bedded, Timney trigger ,about $600.00 in parts gets a rifle that would be hard to shoot better for three times as much.

I had that experience as well. I purchased a 700 short action 243 varminter. Put it in a chassis and adjusted the trigger. It now shoots sub MOA with tailored loads.

[Jack Stanley]

Remington Ilion Deathwatch: https://www.foxbusiness.com/lifestyle/remington-firearms-gunmaker-moving-hq-georgia

RemArms announces it is going to spend $100 million for a new headquarters and "research facility" employing 856 people over the next five years in LaGrange, Georgia. No word on what will happen to the 200 Union employees at the current New York plant.


What I heard on that was they were going to keep Ilion open long enough to satisfy the tax breaks . Perhaps those employed will make good stuff and it can stay open . It's my guess that the AR and 1911 production will not return there .

Jack

[GregLaROCHE]

Unfortunately, a lot of people are looking to buy inexpensive guns these days. If that’s where the largest market currently is, that’s what the manufacturers will produce for. We are probably going to see a lot plastic stocks and the simplest machining possible.

[FergusonTO35]

What I heard on that was they were going to keep Ilion open long enough to satisfy the tax breaks . Perhaps those employed will make good stuff and it can stay open . It's my guess that the AR and 1911 production will not return there .

Jack

The AR market is flooded right now, they would be really dumb to re-enter it. That hasn't stopped them in the past, though. The market for nice but not super premium 1911's (Kimber, Ruger, Colt etc.) is still there and the Remington 1911's always sold well here.

[Jack Stanley]

The world can always use a nice 1911 . Make it just a little nicer than the imports and in the same price range and I think they would be a steady seller .

But that's just my point of view .

Jack

[Bigslug]

Gave it all a re-read. Thanks to .376 Steyr for the "Deathwatch" updates.

The vibe I'm getting is that the "restart with milquetoast enthusiasm" Ilion guns are nothing more (and are possibly less) than what they were making before the bankruptcy, and we are now waiting to see what RemArms generates in Georgia.

Other than a few new renditions of the pin-on fire control system and replacing the fragile riveted-in extractor with the improved "spring fit" extractor, the 700 really hasn't changed since Day 1.

It's what Georgia does with the 870 that I'll be curious about. Will they go back to the original aluminum triggerguard, milled extractor, and mag spring/barrel retaining system, or will they continue with (respectively) plastic, MIM, and the plastic ratchet Express system that precludes swapping barrels with the older system or adding a magazine extension to a "tactical" gun?

But if you ask me, we're mourning the demise of the wrong American gun company.

Think on it for a moment:

Switch barrels and screw-in choke tubes aside, would you rather have an old 870 with its castings, rivets, and stakings or an all milled Winchester Model 12? (as I said way back in my first post, for a cheaper pump gun, the Mossberg 500/590is a superior tool)

Would you rather have a "turned pipe" Remington 700 with it's aluminum floorplate and its safety that does NOTHING to secure the firing pin, or an "enhanced Mauser" pre-1964 Winchester Model 70?

How about a Remington 572 pump .22 with a lot of re-hashed 870 guts vs. the practically indestructible John Browning designed Winchester 1890/1906/62A?

Soft spot that I have for them aside, having learned to shoot on a 510 Single Shot, my Remington 511 mag fed bolt gun doesn't compare to the fit and finish of my market-equivalent Winchester 69A.

We've got two to three generations of folks conditioned to believe that the post-WWII Remington product line is the Olde Schoole, quality stuff, when really, it represented the move to cheapening that doomed Winchester's (and other's) methods thanks to an ignorant customer base with no appreciation of what was being offered. In that context, a nice blue job and walnut on an 870 or 700 was just lipstick on a pig, and the market has plenty of other pigs. I had great hopes that CZ would remain a relative hold-out, but even they seem to be headed in the general direction of the sty.

Make your own judgement call, but this vulture is going to keep circling over the used rack.

[charlie b]

I guess if having an all milled rcvr is important, then you'd be willing to pay a lot more for it. For a pump shotgun I really don't see the point. If I am going to spend good money on a shotgun it will be a nice double. And, yes, I did own a Win 12 at one point, a hand-me-down. Didn't keep it long.

The 'ignorant' public wanted a decent gun for not a lot of money. Mossberg has made a lot of money catering to those folks as well as making more robust versions for the military. Remington tried to bridge the gap and did a pretty good job of it, IMHO. If you recall, Win tried the cheap route as well, not very successfully either.

And, yes, I'd rather have a model 700 action than a Win mauser action :)

[376Steyr]

Ruglin/Marger news: https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/marlin-s-return-scheduled-for-the-holidays/

Per the Ruger CEO: Expect the first shipment to distributors to start on 15 Dec. Good luck finding one, as he expects the demand to exceed the supply. "Ruger" will not be stamped anywhere on the new rifles. Marlin collectors will be excited about the serial numbers. Plus something about "Sapphire lever action guns."

[FergusonTO35]

Awesome, way to go Ruger!

[376Steyr]

Ruglin/Marger news: https://www.marlinfirearms.com/

The new Marlin website is up, with what I assume is Ruger's plan for what models they are going to produce, including rimfires. Sorry, guys; it looks like a Model 39 isn't in the future. Some info on the new 1895, such as the new serial number system and proof-marks. Plus a warning not to put down deposits for new 1895s until they are in stock, which by the way, have an MSRP of $1400. Good news is you can buy a Marlin-branded barstool for only $140!

[FergusonTO35]

If the rifles are well made then I wouldn't have a problem with higher prices. Remember, trying to compete on price killed the original Remington, Marlin, and Winchester in the first place.

[Bigslug]

If the rifles are well made then I wouldn't have a problem with higher prices. Remember, trying to compete on price killed the original Remington, Marlin, and Winchester in the first place.

And complaining about either price or quality seems to be the bane of the industry - - everybody wants their 10/22 to look and shoot like an Anschutz; its somehow Ruger's fault that a 10/22 isn't an Anschutz; nobody wants to go out and buy an Anschutz; and an industry of "guys that get rich supplying mining equipment to the prospectors" has sprung up around the eternal optimists who want to "freeze their nuts off in a creek panning for the gold" to nickel and dime their 10/22 into an Anschutz. Like it or not, the classic lever action is a product of the "take a 30 pound block of steel and whittle it into a ten pound firearm" era. Ruger can no doubt improve this somewhat with their investment casting, but there's a lot more going on than Glock's process of pumping polymer into a frame mold and milling out a mostly rectangular slide.

If anything, the customer base needs a harder slap upside the head than the industry does, but I fear educating the deer rifle buying public on why a Savage Axis is $300 and a pre-64 70 often brings over $1000 is too much to hope for, and the era of the home-built AR-15 isn't helping.

[robertbank]

Big Slug to quote one of our former Prime Ministers: "Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die"

Happy New Year

Bob

[Rapier]

Ruger made its place, and very big place, by building and selling utility, working guns, not glossy, pretty stuff. Ruger will get itself into real trouble by outstripping its price point in customer expectations. That is the exact reason Bill stopped making some of his successful guns, the cost of production forced a MSRP that exceeded customer expectations for a Ruger retail cost. Bill Ruger had a fine understanding of that company to customer relationship.

[376Steyr]

Ruger made its place, and very big place, by building and selling utility, working guns, not glossy, pretty stuff. Ruger will get itself into real trouble by outstripping its price point in customer expectations. That is the exact reason Bill stopped making some of his successful guns, the cost of production forced a MSRP that exceeded customer expectations for a Ruger retail cost. Bill Ruger had a fine understanding of that company to customer relationship.
You may be right. Look at the Gold Label side-by-side, the Security Six revolver, and note how the #1 single shot rifle is now only an annual run in very limited calibers.

[robertbank]

Fellows Ruger has to make a profit. That is about all that drives their decisions. Anything else is just fluff.

Take Care

Bob

[crackers]

Of the Ruglins I've seen, I can't figure out if that's a Picatinny rail or a Pontiac bumper.

[Chaparral66]

Oooo... any chance they will resurrect the Marlin Camp in .45 ACP?

[376Steyr]

Oooo... any chance they will resurrect the Marlin Camp in .45 ACP?

Assuming the models shown on the new website represent Ruger's plans for the foreseeable future, I'm going to say it's unlikely. Though I'm surprised they show the Model 60 .22 autoloader, as I would think that would compete with the 10/22.

[bowfin]

I didn't see the Marlin Super Goose 10 on the new website. Maybe next month?...:roll:

[ACC]

I say all gun producers should move to Texas! A lot lower tax rate and hey it's Texas!

ACC

[Tokarev]

If anything, the customer base needs a harder slap upside the head than the industry does, but I fear educating the deer rifle buying public on why a Savage Axis is $300 and a pre-64 70 often brings over $1000 is too much to hope for

We used to be rich when jobs were here. Back then we bought $1000 guns. Now the jobs are gone to S.E. Asia, and we became poor penny-pinchers. Now we are looking for $300 guns.

"Buy local" bumper stickers do not help: we can buy from a local chain, but it is still the same made-in-China crap. We are past the point of no return: if I buy made-in-China crap from a local vendor, then I have to go bankrupt, so I am forced to buy it directly from China. There is virtually nothing made-in-Canada or made-in-USA any longer, except for a few niche items, where price difference is not 3-4-10 times.

There was one president who got it at least partially right, but he was day late and dollar short. If he had a like-minded partner up in Canada, it could have worked out better, but his luck was that we have Fidel Castro's bastard for a prime minister's. He is Chicom's pocket toy.

[robertbank]

China hell. My new snow boots that cost $190Cdn and are good for -40C /-40F were made on Thailand. My $150 hiking boots were made in Vietnam. The snow boots are from a Canadian company and the hiking boots from an American.

I have firearms made in China 1, Italy-8, Czech Republic 2, Belgium 1, Brazil-1, Switzerland-1, Japan-2, Can-1, UK -1, Ger-2, USA-10.

Of the guns counted only five represent firearms NOT designed and made originally in the US. Of the five, three were made in the US but designed elsewhere by foreign companies. I'll be happy to pay $1,800Cdn for a Ruger made Model 39 but paying that much for one made in Turkey...not so much.

Take Care

Bob
ps All my reloading equipment was made in the US. Powder from Australia, Canada and the US. Primers from China, US, Russia the Ukraine, France and Bosnia. Bullets from Canada, the US and my Garage. LOL

pps Tokerov if you are referring to Trump; the duties he applied to Chinese products were paid by Americans not the Chinese. He even managed to lie about that. Do you know anyone who wants to work for $5. per hour or less sitting in front of a sewing machine in either Canada or the US? I hate to guess what either the snow boots or hiking boots would cost if they were made by either Canadians or Americans at $45.00Cdn an hour.

Take Care

Bob

[GregLaROCHE]

I don’t mind paying for quality, but today it’s harder and harder to find, no matter where it was made.

[robertbank]

I don’t mind paying for quality, but today it’s harder and harder to find, no matter where it was made.

You have that right. I have been impressed with the Japanese Winchester products, Walther PDP line, Sako rifles out of Finland, the Ruger GP-100s, the Benelli Shotguns, and the Uberti copies of the early Colts and Winchesters. My experience with S&W has been mixed. If you are going to drop $1K Cdn on a gun you should be able to expect some degree of quality and with the Smiths I have bought it is pretty hit and miss. The Mossberg line of pump guns are good value.

None of the offshore products listed are inexpensive but you do get some semblance of quality. I am sure there are other gun manufacturers that produce well made products I just have not run into them yet.

Take Care

Bob

[FergusonTO35]

Never get to serious about anything political. It just isn't worth it.



Solid gold quote right there.

[Sgt H]

I hope Ruger produces some more traditional Marlin lever guns. To me the recently released "tacticool" 1895 is just butt ugly. How about an 1895 in the original configuration Marlin had back in the 70's. Solid walnut furniture with a semi crescent buttstock, no checkering, half magazine, dovetailed front sight and no crossbolt safety. Octagon barrel with full length magazine would be a nice option. Used to have one of those Marlin 1895's which I foolishly traded and wish I had it back.

[centershot]

Yes, a disappointing unveiling for me as well. I can't explain why I felt this way, but I envisioned Ruger putting forth a more conservative line-up for their Marlin products. The 1895 in 45-70, the 1894 in 357 and 44, the 336 of course, in 30-30 and 35 Rem. All of these in traditional blue steel and walnut, not the green plywood and stainless versions! Ugghh! Well, I can always buy a Henry........

[376Steyr]

RemArms News: https://www.outdoorlife.com/guns/new-shotguns-shot-show-2022/ You need to scroll down to find it: "RemArms, the company that now owns Remington shotguns, has decided to discontinue the 870 Express. The new FieldMaster, which has a grade-A walnut stock and fore-end and Fluer-de-Lis laser checkering (like the classic Wingmaster did), replaces it"

[Tokarev]

I can always buy a Henry........

You nailed it.
Were I Ruger, I'd never shoved Picatinny rails, threaded muzzles, and laminate stocks down customers' throats.

Having said that, I'm in the market for 16" carbines with plastic furniture and full-length magazines in 357 and 44 magnums, preferably stainless. Unfortunately Chiappa's 12" versions turn me off. Why does one need a 12" carbine when a revolver with a 6.5" barrel delivers only slightly less energy? But extra 10" deliver 1.5x the energy, so they make sense. Also, if one makes a pistol-caliber lever action carbine but does not extend the magazine tube all the length of the barrel then what are they thinking?

[bowfin]

"RemArms, the company that now owns Remington shotguns, has decided to discontinue the 870 Express. The new FieldMaster, which has a grade-A walnut stock and fore-end and Fluer-de-Lis laser checkering (like the classic Wingmaster did), replaces it"

That is excellent news. I hope their improvements include beefing up the problematic ejectors that have been failing on the 870 Express models.

[elmacgyver0]

Never get to serious about anything political. It just isn't worth it.
Bob

Actually, that probably is the major reason we are in the shape we are in.

[376Steyr]

RemArms finally does a update on their website: https://www.remarms.com/

Rifles: Multiple variants of the M700, though oddly enough the first "ADL" style they have been shipping isn't listed. The 783 is shown, but the compact Model 7 is not :( .
The 7600 pump action survives, as does the muzzle-loader version of the 700. Zero rimfire models are offered. No AR-15 models either.

Shotguns: The newly announced "Fieldmaster" variation of the 870 isn't shown. The V3 autoloader is shown, while the 1100 hangs on in 12, 20, and .410, though the text claims "four" gauges are offered.

Handguns: 1911 platform only.

Other Products: Both autoloader and pump versions of the "we aren't sawed-off" creations.

Cue Ray Charles: "...Georgia's on my mind..."

[robertbank]

Actually, that probably is the major reason we are in the shape we are in.

Yes you are probably right, although I listened to a NEWS report last week that said the average American reads to the grade 6 level. That likely has more to do with it and that to me is alarming, more so to you.

Take Care

Bob

[elmacgyver0]

Yes you are probably right, although I listened to a NEWS report last week that said the average American reads to the grade 6 level. That likely has more to do with it and that to me is alarming, more so to you.

Take Care

Bob

We are being dumbed down for a reason.

[todd9.3x57]

i only have two remington's left and it is an early model 7 in 7-08 and a model 14 in 30 rem. i had the adl, bdl, cdl and the 760 but i sold them.

[robertbank]

Well I am very happy with my RemLin Model 94. I'll pick up a Ruger as soon as they start making the 1894. If Ruger is listening, send me an invoice and I'll even pay ahead of time.

Take Care

Bob

[FergusonTO35]

RemArms finally does a update on their website: https://www.remarms.com/

Rifles: Multiple variants of the M700, though oddly enough the first "ADL" style they have been shipping isn't listed. The 783 is shown, but the compact Model 7 is not :( .
The 7600 pump action survives, as does the muzzle-loader version of the 700. Zero rimfire models are offered. No AR-15 models either.

Shotguns: The newly announced "Fieldmaster" variation of the 870 isn't shown. The V3 autoloader is shown, while the 1100 hangs on in 12, 20, and .410, though the text claims "four" gauges are offered.

Handguns: 1911 platform only.

Other Products: Both autoloader and pump versions of the "we aren't sawed-off" creations.

Cue Ray Charles: "...Georgia's on my mind..."

Seems like a reasonable lineup. Although, I don't see much point in keeping the 783, given the plethora of super accurate cheap rifles available today. People will always seek out a 700, 870, 1100, or even 7600 as these guns are icons. The 783 is not.

[Tim357]

Well I am very happy with my RemLin Model 94. I'll pick up a Ruger as soon as they start making the 1894. If Ruger is listening, send me an invoice and I'll even pay ahead of time.

Take Care

Bob

yep. Me as well!

[bebaldwin1967]

looking to find info on my father in laws rifle I know it from research it was from SEARS-Marlin A-1 Model 103.4 Ranger long rifle...All I can find out....any help?297421297422297423

[Tokarev]

I could be wrong but I thought that they can use 22 short, 22 long, and 22 LR but they only cycle in semi-auto mode with 22 LR.

[376Steyr]

Remington Ilion DeathWatch Update: https://cnycentral.com/news/local/end-of-an-era-remington-arms-plant-in-ilion-to-close-leaving-hundreds-jobless

It's over. Remarms will shut down the Ilion plant in March 2024 and finish moving all their operations to Georgia.

[Shawlerbrook]

Very unfortunate but they have been in critical condition for a while now. Out of 1200 employees on 2017 only 200 remained. Here in Central NYS, Remington has been an icon for centuries. In March operations will cease and that will end 207 years of gun making history. Eliphet must be turning over in his grave.

[elmacgyver0]

Hopefully they will do better in Georgia, New York isn't exactly the most gun friendly place to be.

[charlie b]

As a state that has had roots in the gun and cannon (Watervliet) industry for more than 200 years NY still managed to muck it up.

I suspected the new owners of Rem had planned this at the start. They had to keep the Ilion plant open for a period of time to satisfy the bankruptcy court ruling.

[FergusonTO35]

Remington had other plants outside NY back in the Freedom Group days. Mayfield KY, Huntsville AL, and Madison NC as I remember. I always got the feeling that they were looking to jump ship.