New Guy with a Colt SAA !st Gen

[YippyKiYay]

Howdy, I have been reloading and casting over 40 years, started with a muzzleloader, moved to handguns, then rifles, shotguns too. So I have that covered.

I recently bought a Colt SAA, Black powder frame, made in 1893 per SN in 45 LC. This is my 3rd 45 LC, had a 25-5 and like an idiot traded it for a Ruger BH 45. I have been casting 45LC from a Lee 452 255 gr flat nose for years. In my other 45's I just shoot as cast and Tumble lube before loading.

This Colt, (my first SAA) is in very good shape, locks up well, bore and chambers in good clean shape.

Seems I read somewhere in a magazine about using low power loads of smokeless in black powder frame colts. Anyone have any data on loads and powder? I checked my 6 reloading manuals and found nada for the 1 Gen.

If your just gonna climb my back and tell me to use Goex...save it. I have several pounds and may end up using it. But I'd like to not have to scrub it every time I use it, and likewise with the brass.

Again, howdy y'all from Texas, who has some light loads of HS-6 or Unique, Bullseye etc. for a 1st Gen Colt??

Thanks

[2A-Jay]

Welcome Aboard

[skeettx]

Hello and welcome on your first posting

I would say 6.0 grains of Unique and a soft cast bullet, no jacketed as
the old colts can be eroded easily.

May need a .454 bullet for accuracy in the old Colt.

OK, I have hung up the target, now y'all take shots at my suggestion :)

Mike

[DougGuy]

Get a soft lead ball and push it through the bore. See if it will go in the cylinder throats from the front. BP Colts usually have a .454" bore, and the original 255gr boolit was hollow base that obturated and sealed the bore fairly easily. Some of the old BP cylinders had .456" throats. Whether or not the cylinder throats will let you use a .454" boolit without sizing it down is the question. Figure out the throat to groove diameter of the barrel measurements first. You will want a good fit in the throats and the bore.

Personally I haven't used smokeless powder in a BP Colt, and all I ever heard was not to do it even with target loads. There are a lot of guys on this forum that would rather see you loading BP and doing it the way it was intended and don't mind helping.

[JeffG]

TrailBoss might be an option instead of other smokeless powders.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Welcome to the CB Forum, Yippi-. I had a 1st Generation SSA long ago, serial #67XXX. That was in the late 1950s. I asked a gunsmith friend what was safe to shoot in the old revolver, as I had heard that prior to a certain date they were meant to be used with black powder loads. His response was that when the change did occur and Colt started recommending their use with smokeless loads that there were many of the older revolvers still in service. He claimed that the ammunition companies were cognizant of that, and loaded their smokeless ammo accordingly, knowing that it would be used in the older revolvers as well. I had a great deal of respect for the man, now long deceased, and took his word for it. I purchased a box of Remington 255 gr. smokless rounds, and over a period of a couple of years I fired the entire box without ill effect. Eventually I sold the revolver, and have several today that are repros in which I don't hesitate to use most any factory loads. That having been said, I am no longer sure that it was wise to shoot the smokeless loads in the old Colt. You said you didn't want to hear advice to use black powder, so I won't give it, but I think if your revolver is in good condition I'd follow JeffG's advice and use some lower level Trail Boss loads. Just think how bad your pocket book would feel if you blew the old gun up, not to mention maybe your eyes and fingers!

DG

[BK7saum]

Just be aware that Trail Boss is a low velocity powder used a lot for cowboy action, not a low pressure powder. Trail boss is just bulkier than bullseye, red dot, etc.

[YippyKiYay]

Hello and welcome on your first posting

I would say 6.0 grains of Unique and a soft cast bullet, no jacketed as
the old colts can be eroded easily.

May need a .454 bullet for accuracy in the old Colt.

OK, I have hung up the target, now y'all take shots at my suggestion :)

Mike


Howdy Skeet, and thanks to all for the info. I read an old forum post where several said the old factory equivalent is 7.0 gr Unique and a 250 gr boolit. I think dropping to 6 is a wise move.

I have plenty .490 round balls, I'll tap one down the barrel and see what's what.

Looking forward to this forum, been aware of it for years.

[skeettx]

Pleased you are here, please post your findings :)

[DougGuy]

I would say 6.0 grains of Unique and a soft cast bullet, no jacketed as
the old colts can be eroded easily.
Mike

6 grains of Unique likely won't push the case walls out enough that they don't come out all sooty.

An even greater danger in downloading smokeless powder is detonation where you reduce the powder charge to the point where the area of powder exposed to the primer flash is much greater than the area exposed when the powder is up against the flash hole, in this scenario the powder does not burn in the normal rate, it ignites a greater amount of powder which can send pressures skyrocketing, an event like this will easily destroy a modern steel cylinder, and the gun as well, let alone what it would do to a fine old black powder era iron Colt.

This is often called a "squib" load, usually created on the reloading press where the case fails to get a sufficient charge of powder and upon firing, destroys the gun.

If you look at load data, and you don't see the powder listed for a certain boolit, or you don't see a certain boolit listed looking at all the loads for that powder, it is usually because it is either unsafe or not recommended. If you see starting weights of a given powder, there are reasons they don't recommend going below that weight, and the scenario I described above is one of those reasons.

I could be mistaken but I cannot ever remember seeing any load data for Unique in 45 Colt with 6.0 grains listed as a starting charge.

[fcvan]

Dad's SA Colt was made in 1898, Unique in 1899, but BP pressure loads should be fine. I get a kick out of folks who call it 45 LC. The actual nomenclature was M1873 or 45 Govt., and not available to the general public until the Colt New Frontier was chambered for it. Then the 45 S&W Schofield came out, it was shorter, so armory folks called them 'short colt' vs the longer 45 Govt. round. Eventually, the standard load was M1882 in 45, which could be fired through both pistols and ended some confusion for armory folks.

45 Colt was not chambered for a lever rifle until the mid 1980s as the 45 Colt was technically a proprietary govt. cartridge. Fair enough, the 44-40 and 38-40 WCF rounds were simply the 45-40 (45 Colt) due to the caliber and charge weight of BP. Both great cartridges which were the 45 Colt necked down. I have a Ruger OM Vaquero in 38-40/40 S&W with cylinders for both, really wish a carbine was in my price range. I do have a OM Vaquero 45, and a NEF Classic Carbine also in 45 Govt./45 Colt/ 45 LC/ or 45-40, and so on. Purists still call it 45 Long Colt, that name stuck and for good reason.

I watched a video of a guy who loaded a 250 grain boolit over 40 grains of BP, and the original 7 1/2" barrel. It chronographed at 1000 FPS. Why the heck not, the Army wanted the cavalry pistol to provide through-and-through penetration of a horse. The Army got what they asked for.

[M-Tecs]

While 44/40 and 45 Colt are very similar they are not the same. The 44/40 was induced parallel to the 45 Colt not from the 45 Colt. The 45 Colt was designed specifically for the 1873 Army. It was a folded case design using the Benet style internal primer with a very minimal rim without an extractor groove. The early 45 Colt was not suitable for lever gun usage until a much later date and a case modification.

[fcvan]

While 44/40 and 45 Colt are very similar they are not the same. The 44/40 was induced parallel to the 45 Colt not from the 45 Colt. The 45 Colt was designed specifically for the 1873 Army. It was a folded case design with a very minimal rim without an extractor groove. The 45 Colt was not suitable for lever gun usage until a much later date.

I am only going by reports from Jim Supica and Phil Schreier, firearms historians. Such as, the 1860 Henry was a 44 rim fire, which became the 'improved Henry' the center fire 44 1866 Yellow boy. Folded cases were the order of the day since the original rim fire 22. The most telling portion of the history is that machine tooling for creating brass was expensive, and so a common case was used for the 3 cartridges and then sized differently for the individual cartridges.

Solid case head cartridges with replaceable primers came along for added strength, and the ability to reload as opposed to having to purchase new factory rounds. Kind of like the Texas Rangers who continued with percussion rifles long after cartridge rifles were available due to cost and the ability to reload.

Heck, even during early years, Elmer Keith continued use of a percussion revolver due to the cost of percussion caps being less than primers, BP could be made on the farm, and lead re-cast. Even percussion caps could be made with simple tools, such tools are available even today. This is not intended to be a 'contest of crossing urine streams' just an explanation of my original comment. It was not 'plucked from air.'

[jonp]

What would the pressure be of a blackpowder load in that gun? That would be what I'd take into consideration and aim for smokeless powder loads under that to be safe. I don't know if pressure curve would have anything to do with it, though. Someone else could answer that as I'm interested.

[Garyshome]

Welcome. Those BP pistols are Fine, I would love to get one soon:guntootsmiley:

[Larry Gibson]

FYI only;

In the 45 Colt the measured psi [Oehler m43 PBL with Contender test barrel] of 35 gr GOEX Cartridge or 35 gr GOEX FFFg under a Lyman 454190 [255 gr] in Winchester cases using WLP primers with an OAL of 1.6" runs 12,000 to 13,500 psi.

The same Lyman 454190 seated to an OAL of 1.589" over 8.5 gr Unique ran 18,000 psi. Seated to the max length for a Colt cylinder with OAL of 1.664 the same load ran 15,700 psi.

[YippyKiYay]

[QUOTE=fcvan;5097252]Dad's SA Colt was made in 1898, Unique in 1899, but BP pressure loads should be fine. I get a kick out of folks who call it 45 LC. The actual nomenclature was M1873 or 45 Govt., and not available to the general public until the Colt New Frontier was chambered for it. Then the 45 S&W Schofield came out, it was shorter, so armory folks called them 'short colt' vs the longer 45 Govt. round. Eventually, the standard load was M1882 in 45, which could be fired through both pistols and ended some confusion for armory folks.

45 Colt was not chambered for a lever rifle until the mid 1980s as the 45 Colt was technically a proprietary govt. cartridge. Fair enough, the 44-40 and 38-40 WCF rounds were simply the 45-40 (45 Colt) due to the caliber and charge weight of BP. Both great cartridges which were the 45 Colt necked down. I have a Ruger OM Vaquero in 38-40/40 S&W with cylinders for both, really wish a carbine was in my price range. I do have a OM Vaquero 45, and a NEF Classic Carbine also in 45 Govt./45 Colt/ 45 LC/ or 45-40, and so on. Purists still call it 45 Long Colt, that name stuck and for good reason.

I watched a video of a guy who loaded a 250 grain boolit over 40 grains of BP, and the original 7 1/2" barrel. It chronographed at 1000 FPS. Why the heck not, the Army wanted the cavalry pistol to provide through-and-through penetration of a horse. The Army got what they asked for.



I know I'm the new kid on the block, but if the 45 Colt was not used in rifles until the 1980's due to the 45 Colt was technically a proprietary govt. cartridge, then how do you explain the 45 Govt, or what we layman call the 45-70, getting brought out in Marlin and Winchester before the turn of the 19th century ?

[jonp]

FYI only;

In the 45 Colt the measured psi [Oehler m43 PBL with Contender test barrel] of 35 gr GOEX Cartridge or 35 gr GOEX FFFg under a Lyman 454190 [255 gr] in Winchester cases using WLP primers with an OAL of 1.6" runs 12,000 to 13,500 psi.

The same Lyman 454190 seated to an OAL of 1.589" over 8.5 gr Unique ran 18,000 psi. Seated to the max length for a Colt cylinder with OAL of 1.664 the same load ran 15,700 psi.

thanks

[M-Tecs]

I know I'm the new kid on the block, but if the 45 Colt was not used in rifles until the 1980's due to the 45 Colt was technically a proprietary govt. cartridge, then how do you explain the 45 Govt, or what we layman call the 45-70, getting brought out in Marlin and Winchester before the turn of the 19th century ?

Early cartridges were very expensive and black market 50/70 and 45/70 was a big problem. The firearm manufactured chambered civilian firearms in these cartridges as soon as they got samples. In the case of the 45 Colt it's original design was suitable for use in firearms without an ejector rod. By the time the rim's were redesigned to allow for use in lever guns the day of the pistol caliber lever gun was over.

Remington 1875 were chambered in 45 Colt I believe from day one on a very limited basis. https://www.chuckhawks.com/remington_1875_revolver.html

[Castaway]

fcvan, if you can find an Army Requirements Document for the 45 Colt cartridge to penetrate a horse, please provide it. Although it can, the Army didn’t specify horse penetration prior to adoption. They did reject a 44 rim fire and asked for something with more umph. It’s a myth that’s been passed on because it sounds good. As far as a proprietary government cartridge, that’s something I’ve never heard of. What’s your reference? Great Western made SAA clones in 45 Colt in the 50’s.

[farmbif]

if you look in the western powders reloading data guide silhouette powder appears to be one powder that can be downloaded safely in 45 colt.
if I had such a fine example of a classic gun I would go right to the source and contact western powders and ask the experts there for what they might recommend.

[fcvan]

I know I'm the new kid on the block, but if the 45 Colt was not used in rifles until the 1980's due to the 45 Colt was technically a proprietary govt. cartridge, then how do you explain the 45 Govt, or what we layman call the 45-70, getting brought out in Marlin and Winchester before the turn of the 19th century ?

The 45-70 and 50-90 were replaced by the 30-40 Krag Jorgensen while the 45 Cavalry remained in service through the Spanish American war. The 38 S&W was introduced in the late 1870s, and saw some use. However, it did not perform well in the Philippines and the harder hitting 45 Cavalry was reissued. A few short years later, the 45 ACP was under development to provide the greater energy of the heavier bullet to comply with the Hague conventions of 1899 and 1907 which required non-expanding bullets.

Several useful cartridges were available for lever guns and the market steered more towards 'newer, better, badder' than the lever 45 colt. The 38-40 and 44-40 WCF already filled a niche, and the 444 Marlin and 45-70 provided more oomph. Surplus rifles in 45-70 were available after it was no longer an issued weapon, but the 45 Cavalry remained on inventory as it was a proven and reliable sidearm in less than pristine fighting environments.

The 30-06 03-A3 was replaced by the Lee Enfield P17 yet the 03-A3 was still pressed into service during WWII even after the introduction of the M1 Garand. Again, they worked and worked well. Even after the M14 was introduced the Navy issued re-fitted Garands chambered for 7.62 x 51 MM as there weren't enough M14 rifles to go around. The Military kept them in service even after they were 'replaced.'

The SASS 'craze' created a market for something not previously cataloged, the 45 lever gun. In the 1980s demand was enough that carbines were produced and sold well. It was part economics and part military designation which stalled to introduction of the 45 Colt lever guns and single shot carbines as the Military had ceased continued use many years prior.

[M-Tecs]

The 45-70 and 50-90 were replaced by the 30-40 Krag Jorgensen while the 45 Cavalry remained in service through the Spanish American war. The 38 S&W was introduced in the late 1870s, and saw some use. However, it did not perform well in the Philippines and the harder hitting 45 Cavalry was reissued. A few short years later, the 45 ACP was under development to provide the greater energy of the heavier bullet to comply with the Hague conventions of 1899 and 1907 which required non-expanding bullets.

Several useful cartridges were available for lever guns and the market steered more towards 'newer, better, badder' than the lever 45 colt. The 38-40 and 44-40 WCF already filled a niche, and the 444 Marlin and 45-70 provided more oomph. Surplus rifles in 45-70 were available after it was no longer an issued weapon, but the 45 Cavalry remained on inventory as it was a proven and reliable sidearm in less than pristine fighting environments.

The 30-06 03-A3 was replaced by the Lee Enfield P17 yet the 03-A3 was still pressed into service during WWII even after the introduction of the M1 Garand. Again, they worked and worked well. Even after the M14 was introduced the Navy issued re-fitted Garands chambered for 7.62 x 51 MM as there weren't enough M14 rifles to go around. The Military kept them in service even after they were 'replaced.'

The SASS 'craze' created a market for something not previously cataloged, the 45 lever gun. In the 1980s demand was enough that carbines were produced and sold well. It was part economics and part military designation which stalled to introduction of the 45 Colt lever guns and single shot carbines as the Military had ceased continued use many years prior.

Hard to get that much misinformation in that little of space.

The original case design limited its usage in other firearms. It has NOTHING to do with the military designation. That is 100% BS. The military adoption ensures widespread civilian usage unless there are issues like the original 45 Colts minimal rim. Unless someone produce an actual patent on the 45 Colt cartridges the claim that it was proprietary is just more BS. More telling is Colt never chamber it in the Burgess lever gun or the Lightning pump gun.

On the history of the 45 Colt pretty good info here. https://dailycaller.com/2015/04/24/the-45-colt-history-and-surprising-facts-about-this-iconic-cartridge/

The military used the 50/70 not the 50/90.

The Springfield 1903-A3 came after the P14's and the M17's. 1942 to be specific. Some more actual history here https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/longgun_reviews_st_springmola3a4_201003/99110

Lee Enfields are very different rifles from P14's and M17's and there is no such animal as a "Lee Enfield P17". Some actual history here
https://www.historynet.com/short-magazine-lee-enfield-longtime-british-standard-long-arm.htm

The 444 Marlin is a modern cartridges introduced in 1964.

Some history on the 45 acp . https://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/45_Auto_Cartridge_History.htm

The term 45 Cavalry historically was used for the lighter 45/70 load designated for the Cavalry Carbines. When applied to the 1873 Colt the term is Cavalry was a destination not a model and it is less correct than the term 45 Long Colt. At least with the 45 Long Colt term it's points out a difference other than who it was shipped too.

The Army and Cavalry used the same 7 1/2" Colt 1873 Single Action Army. The Artillery model used a 5 1/2 barrel and that term has meaning and is historically correct with an actual difference justifying the term.

[DougGuy]

45 Colt was not chambered for a lever rifle until the mid 1980s as the 45 Colt was technically a proprietary govt. cartridge.

The Army rejected 200 Colt SAA pistols in 1875 because they did not like the "pinched frame" rear sight. These became the very first civilian SAAs sold by Colt, and as such they are more often than not the most desirable of the collector SAA pistols. Must not have been too proprietary.

[YippyKiYay]

The 45-70 and 50-90 were replaced by the 30-40 Krag Jorgensen while the 45 Cavalry remained in service through the Spanish American war. The 38 S&W was introduced in the late 1870s, and saw some use. However, it did not perform well in the Philippines and the harder hitting 45 Cavalry was reissued. A few short years later, the 45 ACP was under development to provide the greater energy of the heavier bullet to comply with the Hague conventions of 1899 and 1907 which required non-expanding bullets.

Several useful cartridges were available for lever guns and the market steered more towards 'newer, better, badder' than the lever 45 colt. The 38-40 and 44-40 WCF already filled a niche, and the 444 Marlin and 45-70 provided more oomph. Surplus rifles in 45-70 were available after it was no longer an issued weapon, but the 45 Cavalry remained on inventory as it was a proven and reliable sidearm in less than pristine fighting environments.

The 30-06 03-A3 was replaced by the Lee Enfield P17 yet the 03-A3 was still pressed into service during WWII even after the introduction of the M1 Garand. Again, they worked and worked well. Even after the M14 was introduced the Navy issued re-fitted Garands chambered for 7.62 x 51 MM as there weren't enough M14 rifles to go around. The Military kept them in service even after they were 'replaced.'

The SASS 'craze' created a market for something not previously cataloged, the 45 lever gun. In the 1980s demand was enough that carbines were produced and sold well. It was part economics and part military designation which stalled to introduction of the 45 Colt lever guns and single shot carbines as the Military had ceased continued use many years prior.


DUUUDE....put down the pipe and get some sleep....My fact checker BROKE just reading that...Thanks for the mis-information.

[YippyKiYay]

BTW, the Lyman cast boolit manual list a 255 gr boolit with a starting load of 6.0grs of Unique, at a measly 590fps. So I may bump it up a touch from there. I dug out my 45 COLT dies tonight.
Gonna slug the bore tomorrow.

[bedbugbilly]

YippyKiYah - welcome! Sounds like you have a nice Colt SAA! Hope you get your question answered. So far, Larry Gibson, DougGuy and some others have provided some good info.

I kine of feel like we're on a field trip down the yellow brick road to find the tin man a heart and the lion and the scarecrow got in a scrape over who knows the way best - meanwhile Dorothy is still wondering if there will be a heart IF they ever get t where they are going.

Interesting how a simple post on some information about light loads for an original Colt SAA BP frame turned into national debate about the history and nomenclature of cartridges adopted by the US Army and their ability to kill a horse or not - and heaven forbid if anyone refers to a 45 Colt cartridge as a 45 Long Colt. Nice way to make a new member feel welcome.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I once had a friend who delighted in asking the question, "What is the difference between a Colt .45 and a .45 Colt?" He maintained that the SSA used the Colt .45 and the 1911 used the .45 Colt. In the literature of the time when these pistols were first produced, the popular literature not the Army manuals, there is some basis for that bit of confusion. Personally, I think it much better to refer to them as the .45 Long Colt and .45 ACP to avoid that confusion. Some say, "But there never was a .45 Short Colt!" Perhaps the Schofield? I'll go with using the extra adjective for the sake of precision in description of what we're discussing.

DG

[M-Tecs]

???????????

https://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

The Long & Short of the .45 Colt
by Jim Taylor

The debate over whether there is a .45 "Long" Colt cartridge is an on-going one that has been active for probably 75 years. Elmer Keith alluded to the arguments many years ago when he wrote "...Some newcomers to the game claim there is no such animal, but if they had shot the short variety that Remington turned out in such profusion before, during and after World War I they would see there was some basis in referring to the .45 Colt as the .45 Long..." (Sixguns, page 285)

As far as I know there have never been any .45 Colt cartridges headstamped "Long" and though I have reports of old cartridge boxes marked "45 Long" I have never personally seen any. Mr. Keith referred to them from time to time as "long" Colt's (with a small "L"). If you have ever seen the short Colt .45's you can understand why.

The Winchester .45 Colt's that Paco and I have came from Shootist Keith Owlett who gave them to us a short time before he passed on. The cartridge box is deteriorated and I have it put away now - at least what's left of it. But it is plainly marked ".45 Colt Government". The headstamp on the cartridges is ".45 Colt" ...BUT these are SHORT .45 Colts! The headstamp is the same as the longer .45 Colts, even down to the "W" on the primers.

These are not S&W or Schofield cartridges. The rim diameter is the same as the long .45 Colts, which is smaller than the Schofield rim diameter. These are true .45 Short Colts. The cartridge is listed in Cartridges of the World on page 306 as ".45 Colt - .45 Colt Government".

[Agarbers]

Colt SAAs prior to 1902 were not proofed for smokeless powder. SAA experts I know feel using smokeless, which has a different pressure curve vs BP can stretch frames and cause wear. Other experts will say that Colt used inferior steel when compared to Smith & Wesson of the same era. This has been discussed many times on the Colt forums.
https://www.coltforum.com/threads/black-powder-or-smokeless-where-to-draw-the-line-on-a-older-colt-saa.379378/page-5#post-3252633

[YippyKiYay]

Thanks to most of you who gave a reasonable, sensible answers...to the others....keep throwing poop at the fan and getting your post count up...I'm certain that's you intent.

[YippyKiYay]

YippyKiYah - welcome! Sounds like you have a nice Colt SAA! Hope you get your question answered. So far, Larry Gibson, DougGuy and some others have provided some good info.

I kine of feel like we're on a field trip down the yellow brick road to find the tin man a heart and the lion and the scarecrow got in a scrape over who knows the way best - meanwhile Dorothy is still wondering if there will be a heart IF they ever get t where they are going.

Interesting how a simple post on some information about light loads for an original Colt SAA BP frame turned into national debate about the history and nomenclature of cartridges adopted by the US Army and their ability to kill a horse or not - and heaven forbid if anyone refers to a 45 Colt cartridge as a 45 Long Colt. Nice way to make a new member feel welcome.

Bedbug, I see you are always seeking more light, going towards the East. As am I. SMIB

[LenH]

Thanks to most of you who gave a reasonable, sensible answers...to the others....keep throwing poop at the fan and getting your post count up...I'm certain that's you intent.

Now that was down right funny!

[Walks]

So much Truth & fiction.