A new/old revolver

[dtknowles]

I got my new revolver today. It is my sixth S&W top break revolver, I now have one in each frame size for both single action and double action.

This is a Single Action #3 in 38 target. I now have to develop a load for this gun. I am going to use smokeless powder as my research shows that I will get better performance at lower pressures with a powder like 2400 or 4759 or 5744 as they are ok being downloaded to lower pressures and don't spike like fast powders or black powder do. I do have to slug the barrel and trim some .357 max brass back a bit but I should be shooting the gem in the rough soon.

275963

Tim

[hawkenhunter50]

Very nice, sounds like a nice collection.

[Thumbcocker]

Keep us posted please.

[bedbugbilly]

Nice! That should be a fun project! Let us know what you come up with for a load and how she shoots.

[rintinglen]

Congratulations on your "new" acquisition!
I almost bought one of those back in 78, it was in 38-44 caliber (not the "modern" 1930's hot 38 Special but the 1880's target version). Brass was non existent, being a weird cross between the 38 S&W in diameter and the 357 Maximum in length. Bullets were loaded inside the case, a la 7.65 Nagant, and are pretty uncommon. They were loaded with a 146 grain RN bullet over 20 grains of black powder. It was the unavailability of ammunition that deterred me buying it.

[dtknowles]

Congratulations on your "new" acquisition!
I almost bought one of those back in 78, it was in 38-44 caliber (not the "modern" 1930's hot 38 Special but the 1880's target version). Brass was non existent, being a 3 weird cross between the 38 S&W in diameter and the 357 Maximum in length. Bullets were loaded inside the case, a la 7.65 Nagant, and are pretty uncommon. They were loaded with a 146 grain RN bullet over 20 grains of black powder. It was the unavailability of ammunition that deterred me buying it.

I am pretty sure I can make great ammo using .357 Max. brass. I will probably start with a lighter bullet and a small charge of Green Dot like I use in my .38 S&W revolvers on medium frames.

Yeah, I did not call it a .38-44 because of the confusion. I like calling it a .38 Target.

Tim

[rintinglen]

Looking forward to some pictures when you get it shooting. The brass may bulge a bit, like 38 Special in one of those rechambered British Lend-lease Smith and Wessons, but that .357 Max should make the grade.

[dtknowles]

First tests are done. Slugged the barrel, 5 groove rifling ;-). Turns out the barrel is on the large size, 0.361 groove, .0355 bore. I am testing using bullets and balls from my cap and ball revolver supplies.

2 grains of Green Dot barely (sometimes doesn't) get the round ball out of the barrel, 143 fps with lots of unburnt powder. Same charge get the 135 gr. round nose bullet up to 450 fps.

276127

Left to right .38 S&W, .38 S&W Special, .357 Mag., .38 Target, .357 Max.

Tim

[smkummer]

On the colt forum (coltforum.com) a new member acquired a 1890’s Colt Single action target in 38-44. Another member made him ammo from 357 max. I messaged the owner that on gunbroker a quantity of original brass was for sale. This was about 9 months ago. If either gun was mine, I would simply shoot 38 S&W smokeless starting loads and see if the accuracy was acceptable, with a proper size bullet of course. I once had a 44 Russian new model #3 of which i shot smokeless starting loads in. I have a old Bridgeport bullet mold stamped 38 S&W which casts a .361 diameter round nose.

[OBXPilgrim]

Is 360 dan wesson the right length? Starline at least used to make it.

[dtknowles]

Is 360 dan wesson the right length? Starline at least used to make it.

I think they would be close enough. I just ordered some, I will have extra's that I might sell.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Is 360 dan wesson the right length? Starline at least used to make it.

Thanks for that idea/

Tim

[dtknowles]

Ok, have done a little load development. It was a bit tricky to get the Green Dot to burn right so I have not gone to slower powders like 2400 or 5477. The problem was low pressures not getting the powder to burn. This would have been easy if I could have just used a firm crimp on the bullet but because the bullet is totally below the case mouth I have to rely on neck tension. That mean hunting down a sizer the right diameter and a bullet the right diameter. Not wanting to wait for something ordered I have tried what I have on hand. I also upped the powder charge to almost 38 special load levels. This made me nervous since it is a black powder gun and the original load was 20 gr. black powder and a 146 gr. bullet and original 38 Special was 21.5 gr. black powder and 158 gr. bullet. I don't think my pressures are high but I can't measure them. My velocities are lower so I am no longer worried and I am now getting good powder burn and consistent velocities. At the short ranges I am testing the gun is shooting to the point of aim and groups are small considering the sights and me shooting offhand not off a bench.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Is 360 dan wesson the right length? Starline at least used to make it.

I just got my 250 pieces of 360 Dan Wesson brass. It should be great. Tiny bit short but I won't have all the brass prep I did for my 10 test pieces I made from .357 Max. Thanks for the hint.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Ok, I think I am ready for accuracy testing. I was getting 200 fps velocity swings in my load development. It turned out the load was very position sensitive. It took me too long and too many primers to figure that out. I have a load that drives that 135 gr. bullet at just over 800 fps and is no longer position sensitive as I am seating the bullet deep enough into the case that there is very little air space. That did bump up the velocity and I am use the pressure as well but the cases still extract easily. I feel good about this load because now the velocity and the powder charge seem to match Lyman data pretty well.

Tim