1867 Navy Rolling Block .50 Pistol Chamber

[Central Georgia]

I have recently acquired an 1867 rolling block pistol. The chamber is actually the full length for the 50-70 case instead of the pistol 50-20 or 50-25. The chamber does not look like it was bored out at a later date but appears as it is original to the gun. The serial number on the barrel and the wood grip is actually #25. I think since it was such an early one, that they may have reused a rifle barrel? The pistol appears to be unmolested with the proper inspector and proof makes and the correct patina and wear. I have shot it using a 300 grain projectile 25g 3f BP and cases shortened to the pistol length. It shoots fairly accurately but it will throw a flyer every 5 or six shots. Would there be any drawback to using the full length 50-70 cases and just seat the projectile deep down in the case against the powder? This would keep the projectile in the case until it engages the rifling.

[vagrantviking]

That should work fine as long as the case walls don't get thicker and prevent the bullet from seating as far down as you want. Similar to a wadcutter load.
Another option is to use a little filler between the powder and bullet. I've tried things like multiple cork wads, cream if wheat and corn meal. This works if the case walls are too thick or if you want to keep the bullet up near the lands of the rifling.

[Central Georgia]

Thanks, Yes I have used fillers before but since it would be 2/3 filler and 1/3 powder, I figured doing that might present problems of it own. I've loaded seating deep in a case before just never so deep where you are only using half of the case.

[lar45]

That's exactly what I've been looking for. Except I'd rather have the Army version ;)

[M1871]

I have an Army 1871 and it has the correct chamber. I can not insert an empty 50-70 case in the chamber so even more impossible to load a round with a bullet. The case alone is just too long and it hits on top of the open breech block. So I'd suspect that what you have has had other changes to the action. Would be interesting to compare photos of your pistol to the one I have. What was the diameter of the bullet you fired?

I have the 1871 Army pistol and I'm interested in doing some reloading for it.
But..... I am having a very hard time finding much usable info for this cartridge.

I see conflicting info about the differences between the Army and the Navy chambers. The Army cartridges apppear to be somewhat bottle necked, while the Navy case are straight walled. I slugged the barrel of the pistol I have it it looks like a correct bullet dia would be clost to .510. Some info I have come across talks about using a bullet with a dia meter of .514 for the Navy model. But since the Army cartridge looks to be necked down I think that perhaps the bullet dia is smaller for the Army pistol that it is for the Navy model.

I'm waiting on some Cerrosafe to arrive so that I can do a chamber casting. I have the Lee 90255 50-70 450gr. .514 mold and plan on running it through the mill to shorten the bullet cavity and end up with aprox. a 300 gr boolit.

Any and all information regarding these rolling block pistols would be interesting.

[ndnchf]

I would advise against seating the bullet deep inside the case. Black powder tends to expand the bullet. Upon firing that expanding bullet diameter could be constricted as it tries to exit the case mouth which could raise pressures to dangerous levels. I think it would be safer to fill the excess capacity with CoW or some other, non compressing inert substance.

M1871 - I have done the same thing with a Lee mold. I cut it down from 450 to 350 gr. It works great in all my 50 cal guns.

[BrassMagnet]

I would strongly advise against multiple cork wads.
Using multiple cork wads in a 9.3x74R case reformed to .410 3” all brass shot shell didn’t work well. Shot shells are very low pressure and rifle brass used as all brass hulls should last nearly forever. With extra cork wads to make the load long enough to roll crimp the overshot card in place caused case head separations in only three loads. Thankfully the shotgun wasn’t damaged. Note: I witnessed this, I didn’t do it!

[mazo kid]

I also have the Army RB pistol with the long chamber. I just trimmed a couple of 50-70 brass cases to pistol specs, mostly for display.

[M1871]

Confusion Abounds

Chamber casting length * original cartridge COL size * Bullet diameter * New custom configured case

Since I started this project of reloading some rounds for the M1871 Army Rolling block pistol I have found most all information to be not only confusing and convoluted, but in some case contradictory.

The start of this thread the OP states that he can chamber a 50-70 round or perhaps just a case in his pistol. In my pistol this is not the situation. As seen in my photos I can not chamber a full size 50-70 case and the same is true for a carbine length (1.35") case. Comparing a full size 50-70 case to the chamber casting it is apparent that the full size case is too long for the chamber. So, I am not sure what is going on with the Op's pistol chamber.

I made a chamber casting of the M1897 I have and compared the results to an original .50 Rem cartridge.
original factory round. I cut down 50-70 brass to more correct length where the bullet would be much closer to engaging the rifling.

Conflicting information regarding the correct bullet diameter. Some information I have come across states the correct size should be anywhere between .502 to .514 Depending on which article you read.
I slugged my bbl and took some measurements also measured the casting I made. Difficult to do because of the 3 groove rifling. The best "guesstimate" for my pistol comes out to be about .5094. Some writers claim to be able to use bullets straight from a mold casting a diameter of .514. I seen other articles claim the correct mold would cast a .508 bullet. Yet another source offers a bullet dia of .502.
Now here's the kicker...... measuring the bullet in the original cartridge, the diameter is somewhere around .506. But that is reading a 100+ year old bullet still seated in it's case.

I'm pretty sure I have the correct case length figured out. Just not sure on what bullet diameter I should consider, On one hand for my bore, the.514 seems a bit to large and the .502 seems too small. I'm not certain on just how much over size I can get safely by with. From all I've ever learned regarding the correct diameter it should be around .002 or .004 over groove diameter.
287862287863287864

[ulav8r]

Confusion Abounds

Chamber casting length * original cartridge COL size * Bullet diameter * New custom configured case

Since I started this project of reloading some rounds for the M1871 Army Rolling block pistol I have found most all information to be not only confusing and convoluted, but in some case contradictory.

The start of this thread the OP states that he can chamber a 50-70 round or perhaps just a case in his pistol. In my pistol this is not the situation. As seen in my photos I can not chamber a full size 50-70 case and the same is true for a carbine length (1.35") case. Comparing a full size 50-70 case to the chamber casting it is apparent that the full size case is too long for the chamber. So, I am not sure what is going on with the Op's pistol chamber.

I made a chamber casting of the M1897 I have and compared the results to an original .50 Rem cartridge.
original factory round. I cut down 50-70 brass to more correct length where the bullet would be much closer to engaging the rifling.

Conflicting information regarding the correct bullet diameter. Some information I have come across states the correct size should be anywhere between .502 to .514 Depending on which article you read.
I slugged my bbl and took some measurements also measured the casting I made. Difficult to do because of the 3 groove rifling. The best "guesstimate" for my pistol comes out to be about .5094. Some writers claim to be able to use bullets straight from a mold casting a diameter of .514. I seen other articles claim the correct mold would cast a .508 bullet. Yet another source offers a bullet dia of .502.
Now here's the kicker...... measuring the bullet in the original cartridge, the diameter is somewhere around .506. But that is reading a 100+ year old bullet still seated in it's case.

I'm pretty sure I have the correct case length figured out. Just not sure on what bullet diameter I should consider, On one hand for my bore, the.514 seems a bit to large and the .502 seems too small. I'm not certain on just how much over size I can get safely by with. From all I've ever learned regarding the correct diameter it should be around .002 or .004 over groove diameter.
287862287863287864

Measure your chamber cast at the front, where the neck of the loaded cartridge will be, then measure the neck wall thickness of the brass at the same location. Subtract twice the neck thickness from the chamber diameter to get the MAXIMUM diameter of the bullet that might chamber. Then subtract .001 to .002 from that to get a bullet diameter that might work most of the time.

[ndnchf]

M1871 - by your groove size, I'd say a .512" diameter bullet would be a good starting point. Bullet sizing dies are availble in that size.

[M1871]

ulav8r --- Thanks for that advice. But I'm not clear on how your suggestion would differ from actually measuring the greater diameter of a bbl slug. I'm pretty confident I know the correct diameter for the bullet.. I used the wrapping the slug with shim stock method and measuring with three micrometers and a dial caliper. Getting consistent result on multiple measurements. I'll admit I am not all that knowledgeable on this topic, I do know that the bullet nose should just fall shot of engaging the rifling. I think I've accomplished this from measuring the casting. I feel that (my determined) case length is far better than what the original cartridge length would be. I intend to cast with a soft alloy so as not to create to much chamber pressure.

ndnchf --- Thanks! how about sizing down to .510 would that still be OK? .514 seem a bit to over-size. Would that still be safe?


I'm not looking of accuracy here Just wanting to be able to enjoy shooting this bit of history once in awhile.

[ndnchf]

Typically sizing down more than about .005" can cause bullet distortion. But you aren't doing precision target shooting, so thats probably fine. What bullet diameter are you starting with?

[M1871]

ndnchf --- Well, I thought I had a Lee 90255. It was ordered and then I learned it is now back-ordered. No one has that lee mold in stock. I was lucky to have come across several bullets that were cast from that Lee mold. I cut the lower two bands off the bullets to get the correct size and weight, This gave me something to plan and work with. I had plans on modifying the new Lee mold much like you have done except taking down even more meat. So I'm now looking at a mold from accurate mold that is .510 dia. at 290 or 320 grn. Or..... if anyone has another option for a suitable mold I'd consider that.

[ndnchf]

Accurate makes darn nice molds to order. That is a good alternative. Just a thought, but did you check BACO's site to see if they have bullets in the weight range you want?

[ndnchf]

BTW M1871, I'm curious about your screen name. I have a M1871 Springfield Spencer rifle :-)

[M1871]

ndnchf --- Yes I had found a cast bullet at BACO that they actually specify for the .50 Rem pistol. But, they are out of stock. BACO also had some loaded rounds . Just too expensive. Besides where is the fun in just buying everythig one needs? This is a hobby after-all. Ain't we supposed to use our heads and hands and not just the power of our wallets.

Accurate Molds..... They do look good and can pretty much build to specs. A bit pricey and the wait time as of this writing is 10 weeks.


I also found a suitable mold at Old West Bullet Moulds but that one is .508 dia. I wrote to see if he could supply a different diameter, He could at an additional cost. His mold s "as listed" are at $135 Not sure if I want to pay the extra cost and I thing that the .508 might be too small.

Regarding the screen name..... I had an old account here at castboolits but it disapeared. So I started anew. The M1871 is the designation for the Model 1871 Army Rolling Block Pistol.

.-.

[ndnchf]

M1871 - got it, that makes sense.

I have molds from both Old West and Accurate. Both are very nice. The OW is brass and does get heavy after a while. Bernie at OW does sell bullets from his molds too. He doesnt show them all, you have to ask. Last month I bought 50 .41 rimfire short bullets. I dont expect to shoot my deringer enough to warrant buying the mold. So I just got 50 bullets. Maybe you can get some to try.

[ulav8r]

M1871, your best guess measurement of .5094 would suggest a bullet diameter of .510 to .511, or even up to .512. The measurement and calculation I suggested would indicate of .510-.511 would be a close or loose fit to the chamber.

[M1871]

ndnchf --- Oh that's good to know about what Old West might have. I'll contact him again, I'll see if he has a few bullets from that .508 mold. Although I do suspect that those would be slightly under sized. I'm thinking about inquiring about having him make up one of the .50 Rem molds that will cast closer to .512. Perhaps 514 since I can always size the bullet down slightly. I noticed that he also has sizing dies rather reasonably priced. Might even consider getting one sizing die and if need be hone it out to the larger dia, Of course I could do the same with Accurate molds but the 2 1/2 week wait time is not very appealing.


ulav8r --- Yes your stated measurements are about what I concluded. Thanks

[missionary5155]

And do not overlook the lowly round ball in your baby roller shooting. A pure lead (40-1 and range scrap works nicely) with a full case of F Goex makes a fine plinker load that will do in any critter it hits. From bunnies to corn crunchers have been slammed to the dirt by far less.

[M1871]

missionary5155 --- Thanks! I might be tempted to try that if I had a supply of .50 cal rb's.
Are you advocating using fg and not ffg? That's brings up a question..... If I substitute fg for ffg would that be a viable method of reducing chamber pressures?
"
From bunnies to corn crunchers" How about taking down a wild boar with one if these pistols? Now that would be exciting.

[ndnchf]

FG is coarser than FFG. It has a slower burn rate, thus lower pressure than FFG.

[M1871]

ndnchf --- Thanks that confirms my beliefs. This thing is old like myself and deserves to be treated tenderly. Besides I have about 1/2 pound of Dupont Fg that I've had since the Civil War centennial. Back then we were playing around with .44 Cap & Ball. Don't remember the reason for fg but it worked just fine.

[M1871]

**** UpDate ****

Received some pre-cast 300gn, .50 Rem bullets from Old West.
Pushed one through the bore to make sure the .508 dia would engage the
rifling sufficiently. It did. I was concerned because from the bbl slugs and the castings
I did those showed that .508 might be a bit under-sized.

After I cut down the original 50-70 Starline brass to a case length of .925 I measured out
the prescribed 25gn of BP. But since I only have Fg (not FFg) on hand I was only able to load
with 20gns and still have the bullet seat down to below the lube recess ring.

Have not yet made it to the range to test fire but plan to in the next few coming days.

.288372

[ndnchf]

Looks good. I look forward to your range report.

[Gray Fox]

Sure looks like that would be a fun round in a 5-shot cylinder in a Ruger stainless Blackhawk. GF

[toot]

ndnchf, in most cases and chambers / SHARPS, can a RB, be substituted for a bullet? I ask because I shoot a RB'S, in my SHARPS & JOSLYN, & GALIGHER. ETC. with out any problems. just courious, thanking you. toot.

[ndnchf]

ndnchf, in most cases and chambers / SHARPS, can a RB, be substituted for a bullet? I ask because I shoot a RB'S, in my SHARPS & JOSLYN, & GALIGHER. ETC. with out any problems. just courious, thanking you. toot.

For short range plinking, I don't see why not. Just be sure to put some lube on it.

[toot]

ndnchf, thank you sir for the answer to my question. I will lube the ball after loading it with a dab of WONDER LUBE.

[M1871]

= Range Report =
Finally made it to the range. I loaded a total of 10 rounds. Set the target at about 12 yards. First two rounds must of went over the top. I compensated by aiming lower and managed to get the remaining 8 rounds on target.

Not to make excuses but I must say that the trigger pull on this pistol is horrendous and the sights leave a lot to be desired.

Here are the specs on the rounds I loaded
Case: trimmed skyline 50-70 brass to a case length of .925
Bullet: .508, 300 gn from Old West Moulds
Lube: bees wax & Olive Oil 50/50
Powder: 20gn of Fg Black powder
Primer: CCI large pistol
C.O.L. : 1.40

288874 288879

[ndnchf]

Most excellent - glad you got it shooting!

[M1871]

ndnchf Hello just stumbled across your posts on the CASCity forum regarding ....
M1871 Springfield Spencer Shooting 50-45 Cartridges

Very interesting reading especially since I just acquired a 1865 Burnside Spencer.
I don't have the carbine in my possesion yet but I'm pretty certian I'll be facing the enjoyment
of developing a cartridge for it.

I'll follow your thread at CASCity. I just discovered them today. Have been trying to get registered
but for some reason can not get their confrmation emails. So for now I will not be able to post reply's.

Also... enjoyed the video you put out regarding firing your Springfield converted Spencer.

[ndnchf]

M1871 - I hope you get the registration worked out over there. The Spencer forum has a ton if great information. There are well over 30 antique firearms related videos on my youtube channel. Feel free to browse them and subscribe. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaI37ff_Xx68Gt1PeoXtvKtcAr3VWEUrT

[toot]

now I like that. people seem to forget that the RB'S will shoot in just about any BP, gun, maybe not MOA, but still fun. jmho.

[M1871]

ndnchf ---
I did manage to get the CASCity.com registration straightened out.
You are right... the forum is loaded with very useful info the on the Spencer.
I think I have already watched all of your videos.
Will subscribe so as not to miss any future videos.

Until I get my hands on the Spencer I acquired, about all I can do now is to read up on all that I can find on the topic.

I'm hoping the bore is in decent condition so that I can turn this into a shooter. Will be interesting to do a chamber casting to see exactly what I have.

From what I do know.... it's a post civil war Burnside Spencer carbine, fitted with the
Spencer cut-off (not the Stabler) device and the bore is stated as ".52" It's coming back to the U.S. from Uruguay. So.... no telling what stories it could tell.
.

[ndnchf]

Looking forward to seeing it!

[M1871]

ndnchf ---
Yes, Needless to say.... I too am looking forward to seeing it in person.
Once I get it, I'll post pictures on CASCity's Spencer forum.
See you over there

[toot]

some years ago I bought 6 rim fire cartridges 38, CAL. that used a 22 blank for ignition, from a great dealer in TEXAS, who sold all kinds of off the wall manufactured brass & cast bullets, by the name of BOB HAWLEY, I believe that is how it is spelt? any one know if he is still in business? the phone # doesn't work. and he would only take a message then call back.

[ndnchf]

some years ago I bought 6 rim fire cartridges 38, CAL. that used a 22 blank for ignition, from a great dealer in TEXAS, who sold all kinds of off the wall manufactured brass & cast bullets, by the name of BOB HAWLEY, I believe that is how it is spelt? any one know if he is still in business? the phone # doesn't work. and he would only take a message then call back.

I believe he has passed over the great divide....

[toot]

so sad, what a loss! he was the go to guy for odd ball brass! he told me that he made brass & sold it to the OLD WESTERN SCROUNGER, and other odd ball brass sellers. I wonder what became of his business? maybe some other brass MFGR. bought it up?

[BP Dave]

Perhaps you mean Bob Hayley--I understand that much of his reloading equipment got sold on a popular auction site and is probably scattered among a multitude of reloaders. Not to promote any auctions, but if you search for "Bob Hayley's Estate" among the completed auctions you can get a sense of some of the oddball stuff he reloaded.

[M1871]

ndnchf ---
Hello seems like this thread has gotten hijacked and off topic.
So I won't further add to that fact. I did want to follow through with you on
what I mentioned about acquiring a Spencer carbine.

As it turns out I wont be seeing you on the CAScity's Spencer forum.
At least not on the Spencer I had mentioned. I ended up returning it to the seller.
I received the carbine and it was not a Burnside but actually a 1868 "New Model"
Spencer. Not a "Deal Killer" especially since it had a center fire breech block. Most likely
an original since it did not show signs of being modified.

The carbine had several acceptable condition issues that I was willing to correct. As I dug
deeper into this carbine more and more things came to light. The critical and most concerning
was the condition of the outer mag tube. On the threaded end for the receiver the threads were
missing. Not stripped but actually broken off. Ok I thought and considered either making a
replacement or if luck would have it, find an original. Well I did get lucky and located a
replacement tube. Wasn't cheap but it was available and would not require setting up and
fabricating a new one. My streak of good luck was short lived. At one point I removed the
castle nut from the back end of the original tube an attempted to thread that end into the receiver.
Hmmm.... won't thread in. Why??? The threads look to be the same. Did not take long to see
the reason. At one time in the history of the carbine the tube's threads must have loosened and
the fix was to take a big hammer and a large diameter punch and peen the side if the receiver
socket. Doing so forced the threaded socket considerably out of round. No easy fix (if any) for that
problem. Without a good solid connection between the stock and the receiver each firing would
continue to stress the stock in a area where there is not much wood to absorb the recoil. Stress
cracks were already evident. Sure wish I would have noticed the problem with the threaded portion of the reciver before I purchased the replacement tube.

So, once again I'm on the hunt for another Spencer.

Currently I'm waiting for my CH4 .50 Rem dies to come so that I can actually load more rounds for
the RB pistol. The improvised method I'm using now to load leaves a lot to be desired.
.

[ndnchf]

M1871 - sorry to hear this. A very aggravating situation. Fortunately, there are lot of Spencers out there. Hopefully one will come along that is right for you. Good luck!

[BP Dave]

Didn't mean to participate in a hijacking--sorry.

In response to the OP, in his book on rolling block pistols Jerry Landskron reproduces a 1906 Sears ad for "The Remington Bull Dog Single Shot Pistol" (at a whopping $2.90). The ad states that "we have had these pistols chambered so they will take the 50-70-caliber primed shells, which can be loaded with about 40 grains of black powder, a cardboard wad and half an ounce of shot, which will make a good pistol for home defense . . .[or] to shoot small game, if you wish to do so." Landskron shows a closeup photo of the breechblock and hammer of a "Bull Dog," which shows that they were partially ground away to allow use of the longer shell. The ad states that one could also use the original pistol cartridges, and 20 were included with each pistol.

I don't know it that will help with your calculations, but at least it explains what Sears had in mind when they made their modification, which sounds similar to what you have.

--DJ

[toot]

BP DAVE, thank you for the reply.

[M1871]

BPDave == Thanks
That is very interesting information regarding how Sears & Robucks modified these pistols
I suspect hat the OP's pistol might have been one of those. Just does not make sense why
Remington would chamber a pistol to for a full length rifle cartridge. Like I mentioned in a
previous post I can not even begin to insert an empty 50-70 case into my 1871 Army model.
Just goes to show that back then there were no liability concerns on what was being offered f
or sale.

Regarding the OP on this thread.... He has not been heard from since he originally started this
thread back in January. It's a shame the OP is no longer here. I'd like to see a photo of how
the breech block and hammer was modified so that a longer cartridge could be chambered.
.