Electrical Question

[Wayne Smith]

Backstory is that our house was built in 1974 and was built with aluminum wiring. When we bought the house it had a new 200 w box installed. That was 27 years ago. We had an outlet fail and a supposed electrician came in and showed us that it was backstabbed and that was not right and 'fixed' it. Another electrical company gave us a telephone quote only.

Yesterday a Master Electrician came in to give us an estimate. He pulled the cover off the junction area that had been used to connect the new box and one of the connectors was burned through and another was brown. He pulled the outlet that had been 'fixed' and just moving it caused the circuit to blow. (I know enough about electricity to know that was not right!) He checked several other things and gave us an estimate for replacing outlets and switches, fixing the junction box, tightening up the box, etc.

Needless to say, we hired him.

He mentioned that the central box should be replaced every 20 years. Is this a sales recommendation or something that is essentially necessary? It seems a little extreme to me, that an electrical box should only last that long.

[Flailguy]

If the panel is in good shape and new breakers are still available, I see no reason to replace it.
BTW I am an electrician.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

My 2¢
The box is a box. If there isn't corrosion or damage, I can't see replacing it. But Codes do change. Maybe a box should be replaced as it becomes obsolete by Code standards, but that wouldn't necessarily have a timeline. Maybe your Master Electrician just used 20 years as a general timeframe example, where Codes 'could' change enough to warrant such replacement?

If you 'often' use the circuit breakers as OFF-ON switches, they do wear out and would need to be replaced more often than you'd think. Heat and Time will also deteriorate circuit Breakers, so even if you aren't regularly switching them, they still need to be replaced on some sort of timeline...which I could see being as 20 years. Maybe that's what your Master Electrician was saying?

FYI, I an not a licensed Electrician, but I did get a Electronic Technician degree and worked in the Electrical industry since 1985.

[TaylorS]

He wants to make a sale I recommend people upgrade from fuse boxes but if they have “modern” equipment I see no reason to make someone spend the $$$


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[Froogal]

I installed a new 200 amp breaker box over 20 years ago. I see no need to replace it simply because of age. This house was built in 1958, and still had the original 60 amp service with the cartridge fuses and glass fuses. 60 amps is not enough to run air conditioning, cook stoves, and water heaters, so the whole system had been added on to and modified in a manner that was downright scary. The insurance salesman absolutely did not like it.

[Wayne Smith]

We almost never use the circuit breakers. They have been on since we moved here and I have only used them when I did minor repair and had to close a circuit. The only one I have popped regularly is the garage circuit.

[Mal Paso]

Nobody replaces a box after 20 years without a good reason like major rust. Lugs can be replaced and the box is often integrated with the building.

Aluminum wiring is a concern. The little I've done tells me the connections need to be checked every few years and too much bending causes fatigue failure (breaks) rather than work hardening like copper.

[Petrol & Powder]

I agree that a box is a box. A 200 amp service is typical in American homes and is plenty. The "Box" is just an enclosure with rails that hold breakers. As stated earlier, if the breakers for that type of panel are still available, there's NO reason to replace a functional breaker box.

That guy doesn't just want to sell you a breaker box, he wants to sell you the panel, about 20-30 breakers and hours worth of labor. And you can bet your last dollar that he will purchased the supplies at contractor's prices and mark them up when he graciously "supplies" them to you.

My father had a degree in electrical engineering but didn't work as a residential electrician. However he was rather frugal and we did all of our own work when I was young. In one house we had a mixture of old and new with a 200 amp service feeding part of the house directly and part of the house via an old sub-panel. The sub-panel had glass and cartridge fuses. The wiring in that house would put your average building inspector into a seizure with nothing more than a glance.

[popper]

In 74 house should have never been wired with Al. Al was outed in the 60s. Revamps are allowed with pigtail (screw version) or backstabbed (Al rated) sockets. Cu plated Al. is acceptable. Some F-P panels are 'claimed' to be fire hazards. Any 'darkening' of wiring needs replacement. Breakers go bad after a (long) while and today's versions don't last as long (imports). Years ago I inspected the knob and wire of her relative's (1900 or so) house. Fine shape. Many older homes have added panels to handle the normal 200 Amp service, how legal the 'fix' is depends on local code.
Not an electrician but yeas ago I bid the ceiling lighting of KCI (500 & 350W merc in concrete cast egg crate), Co that got the job did Al and we got the cost plus fix. $$$.

[Rcmaveric]

Not a house electrician but I agree with everyone else. A box is a box and buss bar is a buss bar.

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[jimlj]

Was the aluminum wiring for individual circuits or the main wiring to the panel? For the main service entrance wiring, aluminum wire that has been properly sized and installed is perfectly acceptable. For a while aluminum wire was used for individual circuits, but has not been allowed by the National Electrical code for many years. I don't know when the use stopped but I have not seen it installed since the mid 70's when I started electrical work. The only place I've seen aluminum wire used for individual circuits were in old mobile homes.

I have replaced many electrical panels over the years, but never because of their age. Unless there was other problems with your panel I think the electrician you hired may be pulling your leg (and wallet).

[10-x]

Depends on the buss in the box. Many “ reasonable ones” nowdays are al VS ones that are solid Copper. Always used the paste on al wiring connectors when al to copper or other metal.

[Froogal]

Was the aluminum wiring for individual circuits or the main wiring to the panel? For the main service entrance wiring aluminum wire that has been properly sized and installed is perfectly acceptable. For a while aluminum wire was used for individual circuits, but has not been allowed by the National Electrical code for many years. I don't know when the use stopped but I have not seen it installed since the mid 70's when I started electrical work. The only place I've seen aluminum wire used for individual circuits were in old mobile homes.

I have replaced many electrical panels over the years, but never because of their age. Unless there was other problems with your panel I think the electrician you hired may be pulling your leg (and wallet).

Yes. I buried the electrical to my house. Local contractor recommended 2-2-4, and it IS aluminum.

[MaryB]

My dad was a an electrician then state electrical inspector. Back in the 70's I remember helping him replace a LOT of aluminum wire because it was burning houses down, especially manufactured homes where they used it to save money. One manufactured home company was sued and had to cover the cost of revamping the wiring because it was undersized aluminum.

Only reason I could see replacing a main panel is if it is one of the big box store junk panels that are known for issues. Neighbor had one that was 10 years old and the main buss bars in it were burning up because the breakers didn't make a tight fit.

[Huskerguy]

I am NOT an electrician but I do a lot of electrical work on my own home and rental units. I have a Master Electrician as a guide and consultant. As noted by several others, the box and breakers really do not go bad. What does change is the need for more circuits in many upgraded homes. I had an old box replaced several years ago in my 1958 era home and told the guy I work with what I had planned yet to do to the house. Fast forward several years and I completely remodeled the basement with GFI and receptacles every 6 feet and all that. I am finishing a complete kitchen remodel and there were I think four circuits total in the small kitchen that also has a washer and dryer in a corner. This is what I have now for circuits:
1. All lights which are LED including under counter lighting
2. Separate dishwasher circuit
3. Separate disposal circuit
4 Separate washing machine circuit
5. Separate refrigerator circuit
6. Two receptacles on a west wall
7 To meet code and additional counter top I now have 3 circuits with 2 receptacles each
8. Separate breaker for the microwave

Several years ago I tiled the bathroom and thought it would be cool to put a heated floor in - another 20 amp breaker dedicated to one thing.

Garages need to have dedicated 20 amp breakers if you have any power equipment

All of this goes to say that likely the reason you need bigger than you think or what you have may not last is not due to wear but due to upgrading things.

[metricmonkeywrench]

We just redid the main in our house which was built in 1965. Its all copper with the cloth covered romex except for any modern installs. The 100a panel was full and I even had a slim dual on one circuit. For years we have had power fluctuations and dimming when the AC kicked on or a flicker when the drier or pool pump was started. We learned to live with it. Last year the local power company came thru and announced that they will be burying the utilities. For our house as an old retrofit the power was going to come to the corner of the house, be conduited up to a new (wireless reading) meter box and then up and over a window and back down into the existing old meter box which would be internally bypassed. Not wanting that ugly mess we opted to have an electrician replace the entire system and upgrade us to a 200a circuit. I now have new panels with lots of room to grow and when the underground burial comes through it will go directly into the new service.

If not for that we likely would still have had the same box for years to come.

[jonp]

I am not an electrician and don't play one on tv but have done some wiring. I can't say that I've heard you need to replace a box every 20yrs unless there is some type of damage like water or fire. Probably wouldn't hurt but seems like wasted money to me unless something is wrong.

I asked my wife's dad who is a commercial/industrial electrician and he scratched his head and said no. Good enough for me.

[daloper]

Your biggest problem is the Aluminum wire. All of your receptacles and switches need to be rated to be use with aluminum wire, don't just go and buy the cheap switches and stuff at your local big box store. If you have aluminum wire you should have someone check the lugs and connections on a regular basis because they will come loose from the wire heating up and expanding and contracting when it cools.

[GONRA]

Decades ago, GONRA lived in an Al wired house in Northern DE.
SO - Went thru all the receptacles, switches, ... (rated for Cu ONLY!),
sanded the Al wire under the screw,
added a dab of NoAlox grease.
Retightened screw.
Never hada problem....

Current house in PA is all Cu BUT hasalotta "pushin" connectors.
Replaced all these with "screw ons" - made me feel better......

[Mal Paso]

Aluminum Oxide is an insulator. That's why grounding parts for solar panels have teeth to penetrate the anodizing.

Would be a bad thing for wire.

[Teddy (punchie)]

Generally AL wire is for over say 30 Amps.

Generally not use to area where one would have say movement, shaking etc.

You would have to or should (shall as code would say) use de-oxy where AL is used. What is basically mineral oil and petroleum-jelly.

You sure its not copper-clade ?

Other then fuses being better then a breaker for amps/blowing breaker can fail, fuses have bad people make bad choices. No reason to change ether one. Unless, most reasons already talked about, load demand higher, water damage, rusted out, oxidation, service wire (cable) needs replaced (no reason to keep old panel and new wire, unless panel is like new inside).

[farmbif]

I knew I should have been an electrician. that's quite the retirement plan, replace everything every 20 years.

[sharps4590]

I grew up helping Dad who spent several years as an electrician before becoming a lineman. Started in the trade full time in '77, passed my Journeyman's test in '79 and my Master Electrician's test in 1981. Spent 42+ years total in the trade with 32-33 as a contractor. The guys are correct in that if your main load center is in good condition there shouldn't be any need to replace it. Whoever said aluminum conductors being acceptable for branch circuits was changed in the 60's I believe is also right. IF installed correctly it is acceptable for service conductors. However, not everyplace in the country has code enforcement, at any level, municipal, county or state. Where I live now there is no inspection/code enforcement in the county nor is there any by the state. So, if your home has AL conductors used for branch circuits and was built in '74 it was a code violation....if there was any code enforcement in your area at that time. Anyway, if it does, a splice to a copper pigtail and the copper pigtail going under the screw of the device should prevent further problems.

I never heard, anywhere, ever, that a load center should be replaced about every 20 years. As was said, 200 amps. is sort of a standard for most homes.

[Petrol & Powder]

In 74 house should have never been wired with Al. Al was outed in the 60s. Revamps are allowed with pigtail (screw version) or backstabbed (Al rated) sockets. Cu plated Al. is acceptable. Some F-P panels are 'claimed' to be fire hazards. Any 'darkening' of wiring needs replacement. Breakers go bad after a (long) while and today's versions don't last as long (imports). Years ago I inspected the knob and wire of her relative's (1900 or so) house. Fine shape. Many older homes have added panels to handle the normal 200 Amp service, how legal the 'fix' is depends on local code.
Not an electrician but yeas ago I bid the ceiling lighting of KCI (500 & 350W merc in concrete cast egg crate), Co that got the job did Al and we got the cost plus fix. $$$.

Whether or not it SHOULD have been wired in "74" with aluminum wire is totally irrelevant. It WAS.

SO, moving forward...........the OP still has a question.

[iomskp]

If the panel is in good shape and new breakers are still available, I see no reason to replace it.
BTW I am an electrician.

I'm with you Flailguy I am also an Electrician

[Iron369]

I’m an electrician and I would suggest that anyone that can afford an upgrade in a residential building less than 3k sqft, do it. All of these “I know someone who said...” don’t understand what a modern home needs to supply the power needs of most families. Electrical codes are the bare minimum for safety. Anything less is A Home Depot electrician and only cares about separating you from your dollar. Feel free to pm me and I’ll look into any codes you are actually required to have to update your service.

[Lloyd Smale]

If the panel is in good shape and new breakers are still available, I see no reason to replace it.
BTW I am an electrician.

X 30 year lineman here and I agree. You replace breakers when they fail and a box is just a hunk of steel. Nothing to wear out. Now if i had aluminum wires id be thinking of a total rewiring job.

[Wayne Smith]

Total rewiring job - two story house - was off the cuff estimated to between $40,000 and $50,000. Not that I wouldn't want to do it, but the money isn't there. If I were in my 30's or 40's maybe, but we simply don't have the time left to invest in that.

[Rcmaveric]

Lol.... everyone's an electrician and I am the odd one out who isn't a house electrician. I kind of feel left out.

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[MaryB]

Decades ago, GONRA lived in an Al wired house in Northern DE.
SO - Went thru all the receptacles, switches, ... (rated for Cu ONLY!),
sanded the Al wire under the screw,
added a dab of NoAlox grease.
Retightened screw.
Never hada problem....

Current house in PA is all Cu BUT hasalotta "pushin" connectors.
Replaced all these with "screw ons" - made me feel better......

The stab connectors work just fine on quality outlets and make it a lot quicker to get a job done. If using big box store el cheapo outlets nope don't trust them!

[jonp]

Lol.... everyone's an electrician and I am the odd one out who isn't a house electrician. I kind of feel left out.

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Me too but it's good to hear from professionals and get advice. I bought this old house several years ago and some of the wiring was AL. The box was new and the real estate lady said new wiring except the AL to the stove so I pulled that immediately and installed a propane stove. Hot water heater was the same so out it went and an on demand propane installed. After looking about I found the wiring was not new, just the box. The wiring was old 2 strand shielded frayed in places and bare in others. I found a bundle taped with cloth electrical tape in the attic that had 5 wires coming out of a clump the size of a baseball. Bought wire at Loews and started pulling through the plaster walls. Job sucked and required crawling around the attic and under the house in a 2ft crawlspace in the dirt. Replaced every outlet, too. Box was 100amp so a few years ago I had a 200Amp put on the side of the house and the wire feed buried from the pole instead of pulling on the side of the house. Sub box inside is 100Amp and 100 amp still outside to wire the garage and a breaker for a generator to run the fridge and freezers. No code enforcement here so I went online to the State and National to make sure it at least followed that and got many pointers from my wife's dad. At least now the lights don't dim when I turn on the vacuum.

I agree with MaryB. If you get the outlets from a box don't use the stab.

[lightman]

I'm another thats been in the trade since the early 70's. I see no need to change the panel out every 20 years. While they do occasionally fail they don't really wear out. Loose connections can burn the lugs and the wire, loose breakers can burn the buss bar and loose wires on the breaker can cause the breaker to fail. And its not necessary to mention a lightning strike! Most brands offer a breaker thats rated for switching duty if you have the need to use the breaker as a switch. Its not a bad idea to to occasionally check the connections for tightness.

Sometimes you outgrow a panel and it needs to be upgraded. Added sq footage, added appliances, up-grades in heating/air conditioning, ect can cause you to out grow a panel.

With a 2 story house your options are limited. Personally I would go through the house replacing switches and receptacles making sure that the new ones were rated for use with aluminum. They will have al/cu stamped on them someplace. And most modern ones are dual rated. I would cut the very ends of the wire off, wire brush it clean, put a drop of inhibitor on it and wrap it around the screw on the new device. The quick plug on the back of devices is nothing guaranteed trouble, whether copper or aluminum. This could be a slow job but nowhere near as expensive as a total rewire.

Personally, if I bought another home I would check for aluminum wire and finding any would be a deal breaker. But there are acceptable ways of installing it. The quick wire in the back of the device ain't one of them.

[Wayne Smith]

For those who claim Al wire was 'outlawed in the '60's' a little history. Every USArmy 105mm shell contained six pounds of copper, every 155mm shell contained eight pounds of copper. During the Vietnam war copper became quite dear. This entire development is Al wire because of the cost. There may have been local rules denying it's use but no such thing as a national ban.

[.429&H110]

I'm not an electrician anymore.
A/C is away more fun, but A/C burns wires, too.
30 years ago I was plagued with customers wired with aluminum, and the disposals blew the aluminum apart, like burned it. Off.
Outlet is under the sink what joy.
Good sharp razor cuts out the back of the cabinet.
Dig the box out of the sheetrock
Find the aluminum feeder move the box to it.
Set another box to pickup the other loads
they're usually burned off too.
Need a disposal outlet controlled by a aluminum wired switch.
Thing is to use no-lox and Al-Cu rated caps.
Only use copper to the outlet, only sidewired.
Connect the dots put the paneling back
now two boxes or sometimes three.
I like 4x4 deep boxes, and a plug for the disposal.
Shorten the aluminum back, make good splices.
I did dozens of these, the damp undersink doomed the aluminum backwired outlet. And the installers cut the #10 aluminum short, counter and light fed through the outlet backwires. Whole thing was a black mess.
You don't have to replace aluminum feeders if only you terminate them properly.
If you get no-lox on your fingers, you become a good conductor...

[wv109323]

I will somewhat disagree with "a box is a box" and does ot need to be replaced. I had a 1970's mobile home that was wired with aluminum wire and a fusebox. Not breakers. Occassionally many of the circuits would de-energize for no apparent reason. I removed all outlets and used no-ox on the terminals. Three or four outlets showed signs of being smoked up.
The problem was that one leg of the 220 had beenso hot over time tbat the copper had annealed and would not make good contact with the main fuses. The copper was suppose to snap over the bus bars but the copper was soft and had no "spring" to make good contact.
The mobile home was used as a hunting camp. I ran copper wire to additional outlets and used them. I also put in a new breaker box.
So in your case if the breaker box showed signs of heat, I would replace it. Sure it is an additional 500 bucks but what is the price of a house fire?
Aluminum wire has its problems. Oxidation and expansion which leads to loose connections. Loose connections leads to higher currents and high currents can lead to a fire.
That said, probably 99% of homes never get a properly sized breaker box replaced after 20 years.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Guy I know had a weird issue; Cold water pipe next to their junction box kept getting super hot & boiling the water in it.

Turned out the neutral & ground wires had gone bad & the bonding to the water pipe was carrying the entire house current to ground, which it "isn't optimal" for.

They had a tough time debugging that one & getting someone to fix it, weird one.

In the UK some breaker boxes were plastic at one time, I'd sure replace THAT sort of box in a hurry.

[.429&H110]

NH has a lot of old houses with four fuses.
The backs would burn out one by one leaving
the whole house on one 30 amp fuse.
One little old lady could knock about the house
and never overload it,
been like that for thirty ye-ahs

Once upon a time I composed a ditty
as I rewired one old money-pit

Ol' Ms MacDonald had a fuse
e-i-e-i-oh
And on this fuse she had a lamp
e-i-e-i-oh
With a toaster here and a TV there
Here a spark there a spark everywhere a sparkspark

Boss didn't think it was funny...

[MaryB]

Me too but it's good to hear from professionals and get advice. I bought this old house several years ago and some of the wiring was AL. The box was new and the real estate lady said new wiring except the AL to the stove so I pulled that immediately and installed a propane stove. Hot water heater was the same so out it went and an on demand propane installed. After looking about I found the wiring was not new, just the box. The wiring was old 2 strand shielded frayed in places and bare in others. I found a bundle taped with cloth electrical tape in the attic that had 5 wires coming out of a clump the size of a baseball. Bought wire at Loews and started pulling through the plaster walls. Job sucked and required crawling around the attic and under the house in a 2ft crawlspace in the dirt. Replaced every outlet, too. Box was 100amp so a few years ago I had a 200Amp put on the side of the house and the wire feed buried from the pole instead of pulling on the side of the house. Sub box inside is 100Amp and 100 amp still outside to wire the garage and a breaker for a generator to run the fridge and freezers. No code enforcement here so I went online to the State and National to make sure it at least followed that and got many pointers from my wife's dad. At least now the lights don't dim when I turn on the vacuum.

I agree with MaryB. If you get the outlets from a box don't use the stab.

Just the CHEAP ones form the big box stores. Menards carries 10 packs of Pass and Seymour high quality outlets, same ones my dad used for wiring houses when he was an electrician! Heck same model number still after 30 years! They cost more and the pile of them is usually dusty, I talked the store manager into a discount to move 3 boxes of them off his shelf when I was redoing the house. Wnt back for 10 more for the garage 4 years ago and that pile looked the same still LOL everyone was buying the 50 cent ones, these run $2-3 each...

[MaryB]

NH has a lot of old houses with four fuses.
The backs would burn out one by one leaving
the whole house on one 30 amp fuse.
One little old lady could knock about the house
and never overload it,
been like that for thirty ye-ahs

Once upon a time I composed a ditty
as I rewired one old money-pit

Ol' Ms MacDonald had a fuse
e-i-e-i-oh
And on this fuse she had a lamp
e-i-e-i-oh
With a toaster here and a TV there
Here a spark there a spark everywhere a sparkspark

Boss didn't think it was funny...

When I bought this house it had 2 cartridge mains fuses, a second set of cartridge fuse to feed a range, and 4 glass fuses. Knob and tube wiring... first thing I did was add a 100 amp breaker box, max I could run on the meter socket. Since I am the only one living here, don't have an electric range(put gas in that corner) the only major loads are the water heater and dryer. By the time the dryer is needed the water heater has cycled and caught up from a hot wash load. So I easily get by with just the 100 amp supply. Since I know what is running and when I never have the problem of doubling up 2 heavy loads.

If there were more people in this house it would need a 200 amp service and a complete upgrade of the meter socket and the wires coming down from the weather head. They replaced the overhead from the pole a few years ago, it is rated for up to 300 amps. That used to be 3 cloth covered wires with the insulation all falling off, winds would short it together blowing the transformer fuse leaving my house and the neighbors house in the dark. I finally had to sic the PUC on them because it was a fire hazard, sparks fell in dry leaves one fall and it dang near burned the house down, burned most of the backyard!

[lightman]

When I bought this house it had 2 cartridge mains fuses, a second set of cartridge fuse to feed a range, and 4 glass fuses. Knob and tube wiring... first thing I did was add a 100 amp breaker box, max I could run on the meter socket. Since I am the only one living here, don't have an electric range(put gas in that corner) the only major loads are the water heater and dryer. By the time the dryer is needed the water heater has cycled and caught up from a hot wash load. So I easily get by with just the 100 amp supply. Since I know what is running and when I never have the problem of doubling up 2 heavy loads.

If there were more people in this house it would need a 200 amp service and a complete upgrade of the meter socket and the wires coming down from the weather head. They replaced the overhead from the pole a few years ago, it is rated for up to 300 amps. That used to be 3 cloth covered wires with the insulation all falling off, winds would short it together blowing the transformer fuse leaving my house and the neighbors house in the dark. I finally had to sic the PUC on them because it was a fire hazard, sparks fell in dry leaves one fall and it dang near burned the house down, burned most of the backyard!

I've worked in places that had those old concentric services and was always thankful that my company never had them. The main problem was that the insulation on the wire was rubber (some said it was live rubber) and the sunlight eats it up. The neutral is stranded wire thats wrapped around the outside of the cable jacket. Basically a fault waiting to happen. Service men in those areas got lots of overtime with blinking lights and partial power. Did I mention that I was thankful that my company never had that stuff???

[jonp]

Just the CHEAP ones form the big box stores. Menards carries 10 packs of Pass and Seymour high quality outlets, same ones my dad used for wiring houses when he was an electrician! Heck same model number still after 30 years! They cost more and the pile of them is usually dusty, I talked the store manager into a discount to move 3 boxes of them off his shelf when I was redoing the house. Wnt back for 10 more for the garage 4 years ago and that pile looked the same still LOL everyone was buying the 50 cent ones, these run $2-3 each...

Correction noted MaryB and that was what I meant. The .85 cent ones

[ascast]

good read-entertaining at times - I think your problem is Aluminum wiring. It has been a life threatening issue since they started using it back in the 50-60's. Aside from getting brittle over time, it is susceptible to galvanic corrosion ( or dis-similar metals rust), like steel nails on alum roofing or versa visa. It burned up a lot of house trailers, then houses. Then they issued special connectors to go from the Alum wire to the CB panel, or whatever. And cheap guys, or dip ****s , did not use them. Hard to prove whats what from a big pile of ash. Most stuff is "grand fathered" past code requirements, unless known to fail every time. The work around is to change CB and outlet boxes as needed or every 20 years. This forces you to examine/reconnect all the wire ends and fix any issues. It sounds like your garage wire is undersized or weak breaker. I would fix that or run new copper just to eliminate the annoyance. Let us know how you make out. I am not nor have ever been an electrician, aside from some work as a refrigeration guy, some time carpenter, contractor, took classesd at school, my dad was a fire chief for about 20 years and I got the skinny on a lot of fires back in the day. I also have eaten to many doughnutz.

[ascast]

Total rewiring job - two story house - was off the cuff estimated to between $40,000 and $50,000. Not that I wouldn't want to do it, but the money isn't there. If I were in my 30's or 40's maybe, but we simply don't have the time left to invest in that.

How big was that house? Slab on grade or crawl space / basement? What kind of shooting ranges you got close by? under 1 hour drive? Can you cook? Must work be done by Licensed Electrician or home owner with inspection at the end? Got room for a camping tent? A copper upgrade would certainly be reflected in a future sale price. How many square feet? As expensive as copper is, labor will be about 80% or more of the cost.

[Mal Paso]

I was looking at a house to buy 25 years ago in Pacific Grove. PG&E the local utility had cut power, physically removed the wires, unusual. I found the meter. It was on a wall inside the house but visible through a window from the sidewalk. The disconnect was an open 2 pole knife switch and there were at least 4 screw in fuses in porcelain sockets. All the wiring connections, the meter and the switch were totally exposed but they were over 5 feet up the wall so kids couldn't grab anything, easily. I shudder to think of someone swinging a curtain rod carelessly. Hard to believe now but someone thought that was good enough to connect power to a hundred years ago.

Would like to have that meter. No socket, it was bolted to the wall with open connections.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Aluminum wire also "creeps" i.e. on the screwed in connections the wire's metal moves out from yhe pressure, so you have to re-tighten it on a regular schedule. I looked at buying one house but as it had Al wire, passed. House fires just don't sound like ANY fun.

Rewired a few houses, and helped a blind friend fix some wiring (acted as her eyes and advisor.) Fun, tho I prefer working with lower voltages more :)

[Rcmaveric]

I definitely prefer getting hit by 12 VDC or 24Vdc over 115 VAC at 400HZ (aircraft operating voltages at about 90/180 KVA).

Houses run around 110 VAC at 60HZ and I dont know the KVA.

Last time I got hit by house wiring I just took a nap felt fine otherwise (swear I had an out of body experience though and funny story. I was a kid with 2 nails and light socket. I was only 9. Destined to be an electeician). Last time I got hit by the aircraft I woke up feeling like I went through a meat grinder. Took a few weeks to feel normal.

Work has a cow when you get hit. Has to do with power we work with and frequency. Its can nock the heart out of rhythm enough to be a problem but hard to detect. Atleast thats what they say.

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[Wayne Smith]

How big was that house? Slab on grade or crawl space / basement? What kind of shooting ranges you got close by? under 1 hour drive? Can you cook? Must work be done by Licensed Electrician or home owner with inspection at the end? Got room for a camping tent? A copper upgrade would certainly be reflected in a future sale price. How many square feet? As expensive as copper is, labor will be about 80% or more of the cost.

On a crawl with no basement - around here you dig three to five feet deep and have a swimming pool! FWIW range is 45 min south but weekday membership is $750/year.

[MaryB]

I've worked in places that had those old concentric services and was always thankful that my company never had them. The main problem was that the insulation on the wire was rubber (some said it was live rubber) and the sunlight eats it up. The neutral is stranded wire thats wrapped around the outside of the cable jacket. Basically a fault waiting to happen. Service men in those areas got lots of overtime with blinking lights and partial power. Did I mention that I was thankful that my company never had that stuff???

That is newer LOL I had 3 separate wires! Ran parallel to the house. Cloth insulation... circa 1953 when the transformer was installed. They replaced the transformer along with my service when they discovered it was filled with PCB's... then they went through town and discovered ALL the transformers were that old. Power company spent 1 1/2 years upgrading stuff in town to stop the constant power outages. To many equipment caused outages means they have to refund $50 on that months bill. They found stuff that was so dangerous it should have started fires all over town.

[MaryB]

I definitely prefer getting hit by 12 VDC or 24Vdc over 115 VAC at 400HZ (aircraft operating voltages at about 90/180 KVA).

Houses run around 110 VAC at 60HZ and I dont know the KVA.

Last time I got hit by house wiring I just took a nap felt fine otherwise (swear I had an out of body experience though and funny story. I was a kid with 2 nails and light socket. I was only 9. Destined to be an electeician). Last time I got hit by the aircraft I woke up feeling like I went through a meat grinder. Took a few weeks to feel normal.

Work has a cow when you get hit. Has to do with power we work with and frequency. Its can nock the heart out of rhythm enough to be a problem but hard to detect. Atleast thats what they say.

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I repaired electronics for a living. Had an older VCR with a metal chassis on the bench. Chassis was earth ground. I grabbed it to flip it over to time the gears on the bottom and laid one hand right on the fuse, the other on the chassis so across the heart zap. I got it halfway flipped then realized I was getting zapped. Finished flipping it, boss walked in as I was swearing... he asked what the heck was going on, I pointed at the fuse and said touch there and there with fingertips on the same hand, he gets zapped starts swearing at me then I said now do it hand to hand across the chest... my chest muscles hurt for a week! I was so used to being zapped it took me awhile for it to register...

[MT Gianni]

New electrical codes specify not just GFi circuits but Arc fault as well. The $5 breaker has turned in to a $45 breaker. I would keep what works as long as it works and throw it out when it doesn't.

[Mr_Sheesh]

BTW, I've had bad luck with cheap GFI breakers, has anyone else had this happen?

Buy it, take it home. test it and it fails with the self-test button NOT causing it to pop open...

Not a good QC thing there...

[Rcmaveric]

WT* was going on, I pointed at the fuse and said touch there and there with fingertips on the same hand, he gets zapped starts swearing at me then I said now do it hand to hand across the chest... my chest muscles hurt for a week! I was so used to being zapped it took me awhile for it to register...

We have Mega Ohm meters to test for insulation break down or high resistance shorts on wiring and cables. The old ones have a hand crank that you spun to charge the capacitors. The knew ones use a 9v battery. It discharges a hefty DC pulse than you can change. We used to con the new guys or non electrical guys into holding the leads by offering to measure their resistance. It would then hit them like a freak train when you hit the test button. Felt like a tazzer.

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[Mal Paso]

BTW, I've had bad luck with cheap GFI breakers, has anyone else had this happen?

Buy it, take it home. test it and it fails with the self-test button NOT causing it to pop open...

Not a good QC thing there...

Some companies build the cheapest **** to sell to housing tracts. It has been this way all my life so it's second nature like not sticking fingers into fan blades. Square D QO series and Semans are good quality as well as some independent companies. Most of the rest is garbage.

Like Mary said, stick to the good stuff like P&S.

There should be finger guards in the store in front of some of those breakers. Semans and Square D Homeline fit a lot of other panels. It's not legal to use another manufacture's breaker but neither is home made cheese.

[Wayne Smith]

It's done. Finished yesterday. Very competent electrician who likes guns too. He and an assistant finished the job the second day.

[10x]

Nobody replaces a box after 20 years without a good reason like major rust. Lugs can be replaced and the box is often integrated with the building.

Aluminum wiring is a concern. The little I've done tells me the connections need to be checked every few years and too much bending causes fatigue failure (breaks) rather than work hardening like copper.

There is an antioxidant paste that is used to connect aluminium wiring to copper and other metals.
This can eliminate potential problems at connections and in breaker boxes.
Electrical boxes do not "wear out", the only problem is that as folks add circuits, there are not enough spaces for new circuits. Some brands of electrical boxes have breakers available designed to double the number of circuits available in an existing box, far less expensive than replacing the whole box with a larger box for more circuits.