carcano, what is it?

[444ttd]

i recently bought(surprised me) a 6.5x52 carcano at an online auction. i only paid $50 for it, so it no big loss. i haven't cleaned her, but it does have rifling. the follower and all its parts is in, so all i need is en bloc clips? i had to look up youtube on the working of the safety. other than that, i know own a bubbaed up carcano.

the barrel length is about 21" and the overall length is around 40". i think it is m91/38, but i'm not too sure. i have NO experience with the carcano. anyway terni made it and its serial # is al3XXX. opposite that on the barrel is 1947XVIII. a capitol E is on the action. i looked for the serial # date on my computer and found nothing.

does anybody know if this is a m91/38?

[RustyReel]

Don't know what model it is or started out as, but I think it's worth fifty bucks!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Probably. I'd need more and better photos to tell for certain. The back sight looks middle-late WW II. the M38 was primarily made in 7.35mm, but they reverted to the 6.5 mm when changing calibers during the war became impractical.

DG

[Pressman]

My first Carcano was a Terni identical to yours, only with a pretty wood stock. Check your rifling twist, some of them were progressive long rifles that importers cut to carbine length. They will not shoot anything accurately. Mine was that way, bullets were tumbling the moment they left the muzzle.

There are some clips still out there, Gun Parts may have some.

[444ttd]

i'm in the process of cleaning the bore out(jeez is that dirty!!!!!) so i looked at the bore from the action side and what i think its a gain(progressive) twist. i tried the to measure the twist with my bore rod but it doesn't come out right(meaning the rod stops and go's). the rifling is about the same as the day it was produced. but boy, it is dirty. the patches come out black, even tho i cleaned it two times(gunslicks foaming bore cleaner and shooter choice mc #7). i'll do a third today and then i'll let it soak with shooters choice overnite.

rustyreel, i hope so!!!!!!

[444ttd]

all right, the carcano rifling twist is 1 in 8", i'd better get my eyes checked, i thought it was a gain twist. the patches are now blueish-green(copper) and the barrel is soaking in shooters choice. i don't what bore size it is, i'll slug it later.

[Conditor22]

I recently scored 170 pc.s of once-fired 6.5x52 brass for 10¢ apiece :) :bigsmyl2:

I found that brass and load data was hard to find.

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/

[444ttd]

I recently scored 170 pc.s of once-fired 6.5x52 brass for 10¢ apiece :) :bigsmyl2:

I found that brass and load data was hard to find.

http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/

thanks!!!!!!!!!

[Uncle Grinch]

Try this instead of ordering clips. It’s a single shot adapter and works great.

<ebay links are verboten here sorry>

[444ttd]

Try this instead of ordering clips. It’s a single shot adapter and works great.

<ebay link>

thanks!!!!

[Earlwb]

It is a 91/38, but it looks to be a late war issue item as it has the simple fixed rear sight on it instead of the elevation adjustable rear sight. Here is a quick guide to Carcanos and their markings:
https://surplused.com/index.php/2012/07/31/terminology-a-quick-and-dirty-guide-to-carcano-rifle-models/
You might want to double check the caliber on it though. Some of them were for 7.35x51 cartridges and not the regular 6.5x52 ones.

I found that the stock military sights are set for 300 meters and the later ones set for 200 meters. So if you try and shoot at a target closer in, the bullets are likely to go over the top. I put a scope on one of mine and it turned out to be a great truck gun for the farm or ranch. Plenty accurate enough for hogs, and predators.

[444ttd]

It is a 91/38, but it looks to be a late war issue item as it has the simple fixed rear sight on it instead of the elevation adjustable rear sight. Here is a quick guide to Carcanos and their markings:
https://surplused.com/index.php/2012/07/31/terminology-a-quick-and-dirty-guide-to-carcano-rifle-models/
You might want to double check the caliber on it though. Some of them were for 7.35x51 cartridges and not the regular 6.5x52 ones.

I found that the stock military sights are set for 300 meters and the later ones set for 200 meters. So if you try and shoot at a target closer in, the bullets are likely to go over the top. I put a scope on one of mine and it turned out to be a great truck gun for the farm or ranch. Plenty accurate enough for hogs, and predators.

thanks!!!

my rifle is a 6.5 cal, it says so on the rear sight.;-) i guess it is a 1947, the barrel says 1947XVIII. i know next to nothing about a carcano, except it is Italian.[smilie=l: the barrel length/( 21") and the overall length (40") and fixed rear sight might make it m38. also there is a spot for the butt side swivel sling(i don't have it). there is no holes for the butt swivel sling(bottom of the butt). tomorrow, i will hopefully be done cleaning the bore, hopefully:kidding:. i have enough rifles that need my "loving" care:lol:.

i'm like james woods on the family guy when they lay a trail of m&m's...."oh piece of candy........oh piece of candy.......oh piece of candy..."
that's me with rifles. ;-)

[Harter66]

The bottom of the receiver on mine was dated .

To further complicate things there were also a few built in 8×57 .
I would the average eyeball would quickly see the difference between .268 and .323 .
The Carcano got a poor accuracy label because .264 dia bullets were used in the 6.5 .
There was a mod done at some point , Huntington's has 6.5-35 Rem dies available , that did a barrel set back ......as I type that I wonder now if those aren't for the 6.5 Arisaka .

35 Rem has the correct rim . And might grow enough to be passable brass if you have difficulties getting it .

Mine was pretty far out of head space and did have the gain twist barrel . Unfortunately it was cut at 17" and was only about 1-12" at that point . It makes a fine 7×6.8 and will be an even better 7-30 rimless . It takes a 1.25 blank to rebarrel . A cannlever scout arrangement for a scope works well to continue using the clips .
Boyds had a stock I don't know if they still do or not .
Clip.prices are all over the place I went to a show and a guy wanted $5 ea , I wandered around a while and a guy had 6 on a shower curtain ring and I think a 266469 single cavity which I gave him $20 for and 5 more for the clips . No , theft was the 45 ACP BlackHawk cylinder I gave $25 to take away .
X39 and any of the PPCs based on the x39 and 38/357 mag/max will work too .
Longer cartridges will work better with the clips and if it's a 30-30 family you can go rimless with 30 Rem brass .

[Conditor22]

I think I heard somewhere that the Germans made a knock off of the Carcano for a simple cheap rifle.

[Traffer]

In the Herter's catalog in 1962 (I believe it was Herter's ..but may have been another catalog) This gun sold for About $10 shipped to your door. The advertisement said "This is the gun that lost the war for Italy" I thought that was funny. A friend bought one and I thought it was a well built and cool designed gun. (carbine)

[Dukeconnor]

I remember a sign in a gunshop in the 60's:

" Italian Army rifles only dropped once "

[Uncle Grinch]

There is also a Japanese version. Think it was called a Type I. Used to have one many years ago.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Restocked a Japanese Type I, using a Herter's stock, very long ago. It was a 6.5 Jap, Carcano action but had a 'Mauser type' staggered feed magazine. Ackley tested and wrote about many of the military actions, including the Italian Carcano. It was not terrible or unsafe in his tests. I had one, the carbine, $9.95, in 1965. It shot decently with Lyman Loverin 140gr sized to .268. In the 60's, 6.5 bullets were often .263 along with some .264's, all shot poorly in my Carcano. Prvi makes affordable brass, Norma also makes it. 6.5X54 Mannlicher and 7.35 Terni can both be sized and trimmed, 220 Swift is close, the rim may work or can be trimmed to function, 35 Rem comes up short but does work.

[perotter]

I used 220 Swift cases to make 6.5 Carcano cases for my brother. Mainly because new 220 Swift cases were the easiest to buy locally and still be easy to convert.

[Pressman]

Looking around the basement this morning I found two Carcano's. A long rifle and a Terni carbine. No stocks for either but they are easy to fit into a 98 Mauser surplus stock. I have ammo, brass, bullets and clips. Unfortunately I have too much snow to get to the range for the next three months.

If anyone has an interest in building a custom Carcano PM me, I may have something that will make your day. I rebarreled the Terni mentioned in the post above to 7.62x39 and converted it to a single shot. Unfortunately I sold my firearm collection shortly afterwards to make a move and resettle in another community.

[444ttd]

i ah....wow.......i've seen some bores before, but this one takes the cake. after i was done soaking the barrel overnite, i ran thru some patches thinking that it would be blue-green.....i was wrong, the patches came out dirty grey. alright, so i have to clean some more. then i pick the rifle up to see what the bore looks like..........well to put it mildly....it was a piece of trash. the rifling went from pretty good to chunks of the rifling were blown out(3 of them). i can see "chattering" marks on the bore near the muzzle.

i am seriously thinking about rebarreling it. i will clean it and put it into my safe and she''ll be no 7 or 8 of rifles i have to fix.

[Uncle Grinch]

Carcano’s can be rebarreled to 35 Remington or 7.62x39 easily due to the bolt face size being close to these two cartridges.

[444ttd]

i'll keep that in mind.

[Pressman]

I liked the nice stock on mine so decided on rebarreling. I was working with a gunsmith in New York, an Italian heritage guy. He moved to North Carolina so I sent the action to him along with a Gain Twist Barrel Company .308 blank.

As he got the barrel on and I let him keep the reamer and headspace gauges. He did say that it was a bit frustrating as there was no square place on the receiver to index from, quote: "I am Italian and this thing embarrases me."

He did not mark the barrel for caliber and that was a mistake that I never fixed either. I located a gentleman in New Jersey who forged the bolt handle for scope clearance, and I drilled and tapped for a cantilever scope mount.

Next I used Brownell's Steel Bed to form a feed ramp to convert from clip fed to single shot as I didn't feel like fussing with the clips to get them to feed 7.62x39 rounds. Their short length won't allow them to feed reliably.

I managed to fire only a few handloads using 308 bullets before a major life style change hit me and all the guns were sold. I should have kept the Carcano for this reason alone.

The one round of surplus military 7.62x39 I fired really drove the pressure up, locking the bolt to the point I had to use a large plastic hammer to get it open. There was no apparent damage to the bolt of receiver and later reloads worked fine.

Ken

[444ttd]

i've always wondered why the custom barrel manufactures always said do not fire any steel cased ammo. now i might know.

[Pressman]

444 It's not the steel case but the size of the bullet in that case, to us 7.62 is a .308 bullet, to a Russian 7.62 is a .312 bullet.

[444ttd]

i've read that MGM tells you no steel cases in the .311" but is ok in .308". (7.62x39 and 7.62x54R)

matchgrademachine.com/chambers-list/

i've got a hankering to buy the sks and factory steel ammo, but now with biden, its dang near impossible to buy it.

[444ttd]

i can see "chattering" marks on the bore near the muzzle.


my eyes must be bad, "chattering marks" are gone. :groner: the rifle has been cleaned and put away into my safe. someday i'll take her out to shoot her.

[swheeler]

Try this instead of ordering clips. It’s a single shot adapter and works great.

<ebay links are verboten here sorry>

Thanks, I've got one on the way just for grins.

[dbosman]

Handloader has had articles on the Carcano's. Some specific to one cartridge and some that touched on the variations.

[Buckshot]

.............I had an Italian Carcano for several years, chambered 6.5x52. Shot it enough to prove that it was a capable firearm. Not long after I sold it I acquired another Carcano, and this one was 7.35 x 51. I forget who made the 6.5mm but this one was made by Terni in 1939. It's in excellent condition, and as such must not have seen much fighting? Some folks have a hard time with, or bad mouth the fixed sights. In all truth, the sights were very well thought out, and show a bit of intelligence for a few reasons. It's SA stamped so it went to Finnland.

The sights work great out to 400 yards, and their intended target was a tall(ish) narrow target about 18" wide or so. Depending upon the estimated range, you would hold your front sight in varying positions to hit from 50 yards to 400 yards in about 4 positions IIRC. In real world combat, the Italian sights were really all that was required for 98% of a soldiers' shooting requirements. The 7.35x51 was definitely enough of a cartridge to take an opponent off the battlefield for quite some time, if not forever, with a hit.

It's been quite some time since I discussed it but if memory serves, holding the top of the inverted 'V' front sight even with the top of the rear sight, at 100 yards holding 6 o'clock on a 6" bull your shot would be in the top of the black. So you could use that hold easily out to 200 yards and still land in a 6" bull. Or out further and make a torso hit.

http://www.fototime.com/81521D12E2C194E/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/01E1D745F87943A/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/9929E22C9349D78/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/E0A1B5840281F81/standard.jpg

.................Buckshot

[swheeler]

Buckshot what bullets you using in that 7.35? Did you make a sizer to draw down standard .308 bullets, I draw down .338 bullets for 8x56R use.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

That's one of the nicest specimens I've seen, Buckshot. Really a collector's item.

DG

[Buckshot]

...........I believe those jacketed slugs I'd used were from Hornady, and were made FOR the 7.35 Carcano. At the time, Dave Emary at Hornady was doing quite a bit of work with some of the Milsurp rifles' requirements for odd bullet ODs coming back by the boatloads. Another one was the M95 Straight Pulls (8x56R) from Austria and Hungary.

You 'could' run a .308" jacketed bullet up through a Lee Type push through die to re-size it to .302" or so. The issue is jacket separation (copper jacket 'Springback' away from the dead lead core). They were better then nothing. Hornaday no longer lists a .302" bullet for the Carcano or a .332" for the 8x56's.

.................Buckshot

[swheeler]

...........I believe those jacketed slugs I'd used were from Hornady, and were made FOR the 7.35 Carcano. At the time, Dave Emary at Hornady was doing quite a bit of work with some of the Milsurp rifles' requirements for odd bullet ODs coming back by the boatloads. Another one was the M95 Straight Pulls (8x56R) from Austria and Hungary.

You 'could' run a .308" jacketed bullet up through a Lee Type push through die to re-size it to .302" or so. The issue is jacket separation (copper jacket 'Springback' away from the dead lead core). They were better then nothing. Hornaday no longer lists a .302" bullet for the Carcano or a .332" for the 8x56's.

.................Buckshot

I guess those bullets were'nt big enough sellers to keep making them, they made .268" bullets at one time also, I'm still, shooting some. When they're gone I may try running some .277 Speer hot cores into a .270 push through just to see how they work.

[444ttd]

.............I had an Italian Carcano for several years, chambered 6.5x52. Shot it enough to prove that it was a capable firearm. Not long after I sold it I acquired another Carcano, and this one was 7.35 x 51. I forget who made the 6.5mm but this one was made by Terni in 1939. It's in excellent condition, and as such must not have seen much fighting? Some folks have a hard time with, or bad mouth the fixed sights. In all truth, the sights were very well thought out, and show a bit of intelligence for a few reasons. It's SA stamped so it went to Finnland.

The sights work great out to 400 yards, and their intended target was a tall(ish) narrow target about 18" wide or so. Depending upon the estimated range, you would hold your front sight in varying positions to hit from 50 yards to 400 yards in about 4 positions IIRC. In real world combat, the Italian sights were really all that was required for 98% of a soldiers' shooting requirements. The 7.35x51 was definitely enough of a cartridge to take an opponent off the battlefield for quite some time, if not forever, with a hit.

It's been quite some time since I discussed it but if memory serves, holding the top of the inverted 'V' front sight even with the top of the rear sight, at 100 yards holding 6 o'clock on a 6" bull your shot would be in the top of the black. So you could use that hold easily out to 200 yards and still land in a 6" bull. Or out further and make a torso hit.

http://www.fototime.com/81521D12E2C194E/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/01E1D745F87943A/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/9929E22C9349D78/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/E0A1B5840281F81/standard.jpg

.................Buckshot

vary nice rifle!!!!

[444ttd]

I guess those bullets were'nt big enough sellers to keep making them, they made .268" bullets at one time also, I'm still, shooting some. When they're gone I may try running some .277 Speer hot cores into a .270 push through just to see how they work.

just some reference points......

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/hey-daryl-deer-hornady-225-resized-for-9-3x57.73545/?id=73545&highlight=deer#37;20225

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/bullet-tests-renamed-296-flat-point-and-225-grain-9-3x57.49260/

and don't forget about the copper jacket, it will spring back about .001", if you want a .270" bullet, then you need a .269" push die(it will come out .270")

[GregLaROCHE]

Trivia. A Carcano is what was used to allegedly assassinate JFK.
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305134

[swheeler]

just some reference points......

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/hey-daryl-deer-hornady-225-resized-for-9-3x57.73545/?id=73545&highlight=deer#37;20225

https://www.gunboards.com/threads/bullet-tests-renamed-296-flat-point-and-225-grain-9-3x57.49260/

and don't forget about the copper jacket, it will spring back about .001", if you want a .270" bullet, then you need a .269" push die(it will come out .270")

I think maybe the Hornady bullets are more prone to this than Speer Hot Core bullets. I do have 20 loaded with drawn down Speer 200 GR Hot Core and it seems like I also have a box of 50 of the same ready to go from couple years ago. When I get time I will take a cast bullet and one of the Speer and see if the Speer are .001" larger dia than a freshly sized casting ran through the same die.

[fgd135]

i recently bought(surprised me) a 6.5x52 carcano at an online auction.
...on the barrel is 1947XVIII...

Might want to reexamine the date, as in Il Duce's Fascist calendar - "Year XVIII" is October 1939- October 1940.
No Carcanos were produced after WW2 ended.

Many of the 7.35 Carcano M38 short rifles were given/sold to Finland; Italy converted production of the short rifle back to 6.5 mm to ease logistics.

Too bad about that barrel...I'd consider 7.62x39.

[swheeler]

Here is what I find with a mic, Air cooled COWW cast, checked and sized to .335" approx 5-6 years ago measure grew .0005". When I sized them today in a .329" Lee push through sizer they came out a couple ten thousands LARGER than a .338 Speer Hot Core ran through the same sizer. Yes you read right cast ACCOWW spring back more than a speer Hot Core by about .0002". Hot core bullets drawn down 2 years ago have not grown or srung back, the opposite actually!https://i.imgur.com/VDT28OW.jpg

[swheeler]

I guess I need a couple HORNADY .338 bullets to draw down, then I would know for sure if they spring back, the Speer Hot Core bullets DO NOT by my findings with a verneer mic.

[swheeler]

I do have some .277 Hot Core bullets in 100, 150 and 170 gr, and some Hornady in 130 gr. Sizers in .271 and .266.

[444ttd]

Might want to reexamine the date, as in Il Duce's Fascist calendar - "Year XVIII" is October 1939- October 1940.
No Carcanos were produced after WW2 ended.




well i'll be. i learned something new today. thank you.


i haven't research the carcano yet. i just stripped her down, cleaned it inside and out and i put her back together. now she's in my safe as rifle #7 or #8 to redo/repair/build.

[swheeler]

well i'll be. i learned something new today. thank you.


i haven't research the carcano yet. i just stripped her down, cleaned it inside and out and i put her back together. now she's in my safe as rifle #7 or #8 to redo/repair/build.

I would like to take full credit for this discovery but it is actually the work of a fellow shooter off of Accuate Forum from 2009 I believe, he had already experienced the Hornady "problem" think it was actually Sierra bullets he had the spring back problem with. I still am going to try the 277 bullets and see if the Hornadys spring back, I may just go as radical as I can, go .277 to .266 in one step and see what happens to each brand.

[beerthirty]

.. Hornaday no longer lists a .302" bullet for the Carcano or a .332" for the 8x56's.

.................Buckshot


For anyone interested, Grafs has Hornady .300 J-bullets listed for 7.35 as well as .330 for 8x56R (special runs, maybe?), in stock at the time of this post. They had correct diameter PPU .268 for 6.5 Carcano but those are sold out.

[swheeler]

Where's the fun in that?:kidding:

[Buckshot]

..............Thank you for taking the time to report that.

Buckshot

[beerthirty]

Where's the fun in that?:kidding:

Yeah, I know such plebeian pursuits are beneath us, we wizards of the silver stream. :cast_boolits: I think my post was less public service announcement and more affirmation of life, that there is something, anything, on the shelves out there. :|


..............Thank you for taking the time to report that.


Buckshot

It's pretty embarrassing that it took me ten years to make five posts. This is a good place to hang out and I can definitely see myself hanging out here more often, especially with the current lack of shooting resources forcing folks to make do with what we have. I'm happy to rise to the challenge: improvise, adapt, overcome. Like my distant ancestors I plan on using all of the Tyrannosaurus Rex.

I haven't cast in a few years but the itch is back and my resurgent hand loading activities have even been piquing the interest of a young shooting acquaintance. Should be fun.

[swheeler]

Those 205 gr .330" Hornady's are 32 cents each, slightly cheaper than squeezed 338 Speer's! Graf's is where I got .268 Hornady 160 RN for the Carcano, they were bulk packed blems about same price. About a week ago the local Walmart ammo shelves were all but empty, couple boxes of 350 Legend, and a few boxes of 28ga and 16 ga shotgun shells, they had filled one of the shelves with BEAR SPRAY! :-)

[Ammo Guy]

Long rifles that were "sprorterized", like mine, lost the gain rifling. :( They will stabilize 100 grain or lighter projectiles. Size down 270 WIN .277 projectiles to .268. :)
Aim small, miss small.

[hazmat]

I used 220 Swift cases to make 6.5 Carcano cases for my brother. Mainly because new 220 Swift cases were the easiest to buy locally and still be easy to convert.

I have done the same. You have to chuck in lathe, cut the rim off and plunge-cut a new extractor grove. I fire-formed mine with a small amount of pistol powder with a plug of wax. Graf and Sons usually carries PRVI brass -it is much simpler!